Emigrant votes - Yay or Nay?

Kermit.de.frog

Should deserters emigrants be allowed vote in our elections? There is a campaign underway from groups within Ireland and groups representing Irish abroad to give emigrants the vote. They could vote at Irish embassies for example.


In principle I would be against it. These people may be Irish but don't live here, pay tax here nor have to take the consequences of their vote.

Also people say "but other countries allow it". Ireland is different because such a large proportion of Irish people both emigrants and of Irish descent live outside the country compared to other countries.

In other words if all our emigrants could vote it would disproportionately effect the outcome of our elections and again it is of no direct consequence to them.

I have yet to hear a good argument for giving emigrants a vote even from those that are campaigning.

EDIT: I mean general elections. I would accept it for presidential elections though given the irrelevance of that office.

irishfeen

In terms of a presidential election there should be absolutely no question and they should but voting in Dáil elections would be almost impossible with our small constituency based system. If people have an Irish passport they have every right to vote for the first citizen of the Irish people.

VinLieger

irishfeen wrote: »

In terms of a presidential election there should be absolutely no question and they should but voting in Dáil elections would be almost impossible with our small constituency based system. If people have an Irish passport they have every right to vote for the first citizen of the Irish people.

You understand how many people in the world are actually entitled to have an irish passport?

The number is several times the population of the people actually living here

irishfeen

VinLieger wrote: »

You understand how many people in the world are actually entitled to have an irish passport?

The number is several times the population of the people actually living here

What does that matter? are you telling me they are not of direct Irish descent?

VinLieger

irishfeen wrote: »

What does that matter? are you telling me they are not of direct Irish descent?

No And I get where your coming from as far as people being able to vote for the president I just think its ridiculous that we link it to passports considering how many millions of people who are entitled to them but have never and will likely never even step foot on irish soil

Kermit.de.frog

I actually believe that if the Irish abroad could have voted in the last election Martin McGuinness would be president now. The reason I say that is my own observation that people I know personally that have fled in terror from the recession magically seem to become more nationalist and blurry eyed about Ireland from a far despite being far from it when living here.

citrus burst

I don't think paying tax or not is a good enough reason to allow people to vote, many Irish people pay little or no tax and are rightly allowed vote.

The main criterion for voting in a country for me is "living with the consequences" of the vote, which emigrants would not have to and for that reason I don't think they should be allowed to vote. It's a bit harsh, but as a soon to be emigrant myself, what right do I have to say in the running or governing of a country I don't live in?

irishfeen

VinLieger wrote: »

No And I get where your coming from as far as people being able to vote for the president I just think its ridiculous that we link it to passports considering how many millions of people who are entitled to them but have never and will likely never even step foot on irish soil

Ha i'm not saying they would have to vote but they should have the option vote if they feel they want to - you have to remember the Irish president is the president of the Irish people... it doesn't matter if your living in Kerry, Tyrone or Sydney.

Ten of Swords

I don't see a major issue with it, I'd be surprised if most would be interested in voting about issues in Ireland.

It is possible for Irish diplomats and defence forces stationed overseas to vote so it is technically possible.

Some suggest that Irish people abroad quickly lose touch with the country, and can’t stay informed enough to vote responsibly. This argument is weakened by the numerous news sources available on radio and the Internet. Plus, we don’t require voters within the country to pass a current events test, so how do we know that our voters at home have been brushing up on the issues?

Some people object to emigrant voting because they fear that voters who live in Ireland would be outnumbered by the number of people who would be eligible to vote from abroad – but most proponents of emigrant voting limit their proposals to only Irish-born people living abroad (there are just over 1 million of them). International experience would suggest that only a small proportion of those would be interested in voting. Studies in other countries that allow their emigrants to vote show that emigrants do not generally vote in a way that is radically different than those at home.

Kermit.de.frog

Whether or not we are outnumbered is not really the issue though. A handful of votes could swing an important election.

And sure if you did introduce the vote for emigrants why stop there? Why not referenda too?

As for the numbers that would vote - the older ones probably very few but recent forced emigrants from the recession I would suggest would be quite highly likely and motivated to vote to show their disapproval.

keith16

Didn't we have this thread 5 minutes ago?

RDM_83 again

Yes to a Reformed senate with real powers, no to the Dail, so not voting in poll

anncoates

No.

I think some emigrants by dint of distance are not qualified to make political decisions about a country they don't live in.

You'd also get even more entrenched voting along family/historical lines like for example, the pathologically rosy view of Irish Republicans (and worse) by Irish Americans

Cyber Ghost

Nah.
Fück 'em

mountsky

Not a chance

Arbiter of Good Taste

Ten of Swords wrote: »

I don't see a major issue with it, I'd be surprised if most would be interested in voting about issues in Ireland.

It is possible for Irish diplomats and defence forces stationed overseas to vote so it is technically possible.

Irish diplomats and military are completely different to emigrants.

MRnotlob606

Yes, because there is a possibility of them returning. They are still Irish people so why revoke them of their right to vote ?

anncoates

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

They are still Irish people so why revoke them of their right to vote ?

They don't live here, don't pay taxes here etc. They can vote in the country in which they live.

RDM_83 again

OP your missing the Starship Troopers option!

No Citizenship without Service

Ten of Swords

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Irish diplomats and military are completely different to emigrants.

Yes, but my point is that the infrastructure is already in place for those limited circumstances so if the decision was ever take to allow emigrants to vote then there wouldn't be any major problems with adapting and expanding an already existing solution.

Fighting Irish

Depends how long you've lived here and what you're doing here

galah

First i'd like to see immigrants who live here and have to live with the consequences of each election and referendum get a vote, say after 10 years permanent residence for example ( we're allowed to vote in local elections but not national ones or referenda. Unless the electoral register crowd messes up. But that's a whole different story).

Why would you want people to have a say in the running of this country who dont live here, have no real interest in the running of said country and could make things even worse by casting their votes when not affected by the outcome?

Deenie123

I think Irish domiciled people outside the state should have the option to vote in general and presidential elections. What goes on in Irish legislation and policy directly affects their ability to return.

Deenie123

galah wrote: »

First i'd like to see immigrants who live here and have to live with the consequences of each election and referendum get a vote, say after 10 years permanent residence for example ( we're allowed to vote in local elections but not national ones or referenda. Unless the electoral register crowd messes up. But that's a whole different story).

Only emigrants who have been legally documented and entitled to work here legally for 10 years... But such a person could have had citizenship by then, so if they don't then no, they're obviously not closely enough tied to the country. Irish people have every right to restrict the running of the country to Irish people :eek:

Red Alert

I don't think they should have the right to vote in anything except perhaps Presidential elections. What emigrants should do is get involved in their adopted country's politics, however temporary their stay, to as much an extent as they are allowed. It's far more relevant to vote for your county/city council in Brisbane or Bahrain than to be trying to remote control the Dail from afar.

Deenie123

Red Alert wrote: »

I don't think they should have the right to vote in anything except perhaps Presidential elections. What emigrants should do is get involved in their adopted country's politics, however temporary their stay, to as much an extent as they are allowed. It's far more relevant to vote for your county/city council in Brisbane or Bahrain than to be trying to remote control the Dail from afar.

There's a lot of people living in Aus and NZ at the moment who would love to come home. They've been away for years and years at this stage. It can easily be argued that austerity policies have been stifling economic growth and recovery for quite a while now, yet the people stuck over there - often supporting families still in Ireland - have no say in what goes on in the country where they want to be. Making ties with where they're living is all fine and well if they want to be there and remain there. Many don't and are there only because it's that or see their family lose the roof over their head and be unable to put food on the table.

shruikan2553

I see no reason why not in a limited capacity. As I said before, certain types of elections if they have been in ireland for 2 of the past 5 years and are Irish citizens or something.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Should deserters emigrants be allowed vote in our elections?

I always get a laugh from the whole deserters thing :rolleyes:

Podge_irl

Presidential - Yes
Refenda - Maybe
Dail - No

I'd go so far as to have a few Dail members for the emigrant population (actually quite fond of that idea, though that would require a constitutional change I think) but that's about it. I'm undecided on referenda to be honest, though would lean towards no. President is mostly a figurehead so would be nice to at least have some input. I don't consider myself divorced from Ireland and feel quite strongly about what happens there, but ultimately I don't live there and don't have to face the direct consequence of what I would be voting on.

I was a student in England for a few years so kept Dublin as my main residence - I actually voted in both the last British GE and Irish GE. I'm properly working abroad now though with no immediate plans to move home. What happens in Ireland is of great importance to me emotionally but it's not like it affects me personally.

Kermit.de.frog

You would give them a vote in referenda?

csm

I'm a 'deserter' who lives in Aus and would love to come home. I grew up in Ireland. Most of my family and friends live there. I have a deep connection to the country and I would say I'm better informed about political subjects in Ireland than a lot of residents. I would have the following:

Presidential - yes, but diluted
Referendum - no
Dail - yes, but heavily diluted (e.g. all emigrants get one seat to vote for)

I would also limit it to emigrants (citizens who have been resident in Ireland at some stage). Possibly even those who have been registered to vote in Ireland. That and the dilution would address the concerns of having 20million passport-holders decide the fate of 4.5 million residents, while avoiding the complete disenfranchising of someone who goes abroad for work for a few years.

ozexpat

as a 9 year emigrant i would say no. Should only be able to vote if living in the country