Emigrant votes - Yay or Nay?

Kermit.de.frog

Should deserters emigrants be allowed vote in our elections? There is a campaign underway from groups within Ireland and groups representing Irish abroad to give emigrants the vote. They could vote at Irish embassies for example.


In principle I would be against it. These people may be Irish but don't live here, pay tax here nor have to take the consequences of their vote.

Also people say "but other countries allow it". Ireland is different because such a large proportion of Irish people both emigrants and of Irish descent live outside the country compared to other countries.

In other words if all our emigrants could vote it would disproportionately effect the outcome of our elections and again it is of no direct consequence to them.

I have yet to hear a good argument for giving emigrants a vote even from those that are campaigning.

EDIT: I mean general elections. I would accept it for presidential elections though given the irrelevance of that office.

irishfeen

In terms of a presidential election there should be absolutely no question and they should but voting in Dáil elections would be almost impossible with our small constituency based system. If people have an Irish passport they have every right to vote for the first citizen of the Irish people.

VinLieger

irishfeen wrote: »

In terms of a presidential election there should be absolutely no question and they should but voting in Dáil elections would be almost impossible with our small constituency based system. If people have an Irish passport they have every right to vote for the first citizen of the Irish people.

You understand how many people in the world are actually entitled to have an irish passport?

The number is several times the population of the people actually living here

irishfeen

VinLieger wrote: »

You understand how many people in the world are actually entitled to have an irish passport?

The number is several times the population of the people actually living here

What does that matter? are you telling me they are not of direct Irish descent?

VinLieger

irishfeen wrote: »

What does that matter? are you telling me they are not of direct Irish descent?

No And I get where your coming from as far as people being able to vote for the president I just think its ridiculous that we link it to passports considering how many millions of people who are entitled to them but have never and will likely never even step foot on irish soil

Kermit.de.frog

I actually believe that if the Irish abroad could have voted in the last election Martin McGuinness would be president now. The reason I say that is my own observation that people I know personally that have fled in terror from the recession magically seem to become more nationalist and blurry eyed about Ireland from a far despite being far from it when living here.

citrus burst

I don't think paying tax or not is a good enough reason to allow people to vote, many Irish people pay little or no tax and are rightly allowed vote.

The main criterion for voting in a country for me is "living with the consequences" of the vote, which emigrants would not have to and for that reason I don't think they should be allowed to vote. It's a bit harsh, but as a soon to be emigrant myself, what right do I have to say in the running or governing of a country I don't live in?

irishfeen

VinLieger wrote: »

No And I get where your coming from as far as people being able to vote for the president I just think its ridiculous that we link it to passports considering how many millions of people who are entitled to them but have never and will likely never even step foot on irish soil

Ha i'm not saying they would have to vote but they should have the option vote if they feel they want to - you have to remember the Irish president is the president of the Irish people... it doesn't matter if your living in Kerry, Tyrone or Sydney.

Ten of Swords

I don't see a major issue with it, I'd be surprised if most would be interested in voting about issues in Ireland.

It is possible for Irish diplomats and defence forces stationed overseas to vote so it is technically possible.

Some suggest that Irish people abroad quickly lose touch with the country, and can’t stay informed enough to vote responsibly. This argument is weakened by the numerous news sources available on radio and the Internet. Plus, we don’t require voters within the country to pass a current events test, so how do we know that our voters at home have been brushing up on the issues?

Some people object to emigrant voting because they fear that voters who live in Ireland would be outnumbered by the number of people who would be eligible to vote from abroad – but most proponents of emigrant voting limit their proposals to only Irish-born people living abroad (there are just over 1 million of them). International experience would suggest that only a small proportion of those would be interested in voting. Studies in other countries that allow their emigrants to vote show that emigrants do not generally vote in a way that is radically different than those at home.

Kermit.de.frog

Whether or not we are outnumbered is not really the issue though. A handful of votes could swing an important election.

And sure if you did introduce the vote for emigrants why stop there? Why not referenda too?

As for the numbers that would vote - the older ones probably very few but recent forced emigrants from the recession I would suggest would be quite highly likely and motivated to vote to show their disapproval.

keith16

Didn't we have this thread 5 minutes ago?

RDM_83 again

Yes to a Reformed senate with real powers, no to the Dail, so not voting in poll

anncoates

No.

I think some emigrants by dint of distance are not qualified to make political decisions about a country they don't live in.

You'd also get even more entrenched voting along family/historical lines like for example, the pathologically rosy view of Irish Republicans (and worse) by Irish Americans

Cyber Ghost

Nah.
Fück 'em

mountsky

Not a chance

Arbiter of Good Taste

Ten of Swords wrote: »

I don't see a major issue with it, I'd be surprised if most would be interested in voting about issues in Ireland.

It is possible for Irish diplomats and defence forces stationed overseas to vote so it is technically possible.

Irish diplomats and military are completely different to emigrants.

MRnotlob606

Yes, because there is a possibility of them returning. They are still Irish people so why revoke them of their right to vote ?

anncoates

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

They are still Irish people so why revoke them of their right to vote ?

They don't live here, don't pay taxes here etc. They can vote in the country in which they live.

RDM_83 again

OP your missing the Starship Troopers option!

No Citizenship without Service

Ten of Swords

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Irish diplomats and military are completely different to emigrants.

Yes, but my point is that the infrastructure is already in place for those limited circumstances so if the decision was ever take to allow emigrants to vote then there wouldn't be any major problems with adapting and expanding an already existing solution.

Fighting Irish

Depends how long you've lived here and what you're doing here

galah

First i'd like to see immigrants who live here and have to live with the consequences of each election and referendum get a vote, say after 10 years permanent residence for example ( we're allowed to vote in local elections but not national ones or referenda. Unless the electoral register crowd messes up. But that's a whole different story).

Why would you want people to have a say in the running of this country who dont live here, have no real interest in the running of said country and could make things even worse by casting their votes when not affected by the outcome?

Deenie123

I think Irish domiciled people outside the state should have the option to vote in general and presidential elections. What goes on in Irish legislation and policy directly affects their ability to return.

Deenie123

galah wrote: »

First i'd like to see immigrants who live here and have to live with the consequences of each election and referendum get a vote, say after 10 years permanent residence for example ( we're allowed to vote in local elections but not national ones or referenda. Unless the electoral register crowd messes up. But that's a whole different story).

Only emigrants who have been legally documented and entitled to work here legally for 10 years... But such a person could have had citizenship by then, so if they don't then no, they're obviously not closely enough tied to the country. Irish people have every right to restrict the running of the country to Irish people :eek:

Red Alert

I don't think they should have the right to vote in anything except perhaps Presidential elections. What emigrants should do is get involved in their adopted country's politics, however temporary their stay, to as much an extent as they are allowed. It's far more relevant to vote for your county/city council in Brisbane or Bahrain than to be trying to remote control the Dail from afar.

Deenie123

Red Alert wrote: »

I don't think they should have the right to vote in anything except perhaps Presidential elections. What emigrants should do is get involved in their adopted country's politics, however temporary their stay, to as much an extent as they are allowed. It's far more relevant to vote for your county/city council in Brisbane or Bahrain than to be trying to remote control the Dail from afar.

There's a lot of people living in Aus and NZ at the moment who would love to come home. They've been away for years and years at this stage. It can easily be argued that austerity policies have been stifling economic growth and recovery for quite a while now, yet the people stuck over there - often supporting families still in Ireland - have no say in what goes on in the country where they want to be. Making ties with where they're living is all fine and well if they want to be there and remain there. Many don't and are there only because it's that or see their family lose the roof over their head and be unable to put food on the table.

shruikan2553

I see no reason why not in a limited capacity. As I said before, certain types of elections if they have been in ireland for 2 of the past 5 years and are Irish citizens or something.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Should deserters emigrants be allowed vote in our elections?

I always get a laugh from the whole deserters thing :rolleyes:

Podge_irl

Presidential - Yes
Refenda - Maybe
Dail - No

I'd go so far as to have a few Dail members for the emigrant population (actually quite fond of that idea, though that would require a constitutional change I think) but that's about it. I'm undecided on referenda to be honest, though would lean towards no. President is mostly a figurehead so would be nice to at least have some input. I don't consider myself divorced from Ireland and feel quite strongly about what happens there, but ultimately I don't live there and don't have to face the direct consequence of what I would be voting on.

I was a student in England for a few years so kept Dublin as my main residence - I actually voted in both the last British GE and Irish GE. I'm properly working abroad now though with no immediate plans to move home. What happens in Ireland is of great importance to me emotionally but it's not like it affects me personally.

Kermit.de.frog

You would give them a vote in referenda?

csm

I'm a 'deserter' who lives in Aus and would love to come home. I grew up in Ireland. Most of my family and friends live there. I have a deep connection to the country and I would say I'm better informed about political subjects in Ireland than a lot of residents. I would have the following:

Presidential - yes, but diluted
Referendum - no
Dail - yes, but heavily diluted (e.g. all emigrants get one seat to vote for)

I would also limit it to emigrants (citizens who have been resident in Ireland at some stage). Possibly even those who have been registered to vote in Ireland. That and the dilution would address the concerns of having 20million passport-holders decide the fate of 4.5 million residents, while avoiding the complete disenfranchising of someone who goes abroad for work for a few years.

ozexpat

as a 9 year emigrant i would say no. Should only be able to vote if living in the country

braddun

should Europeans be allowed to vote

Wompa1

The emigrants!! I knew it was them, even when it was the water meters, I knew it was them!!

If they are Irish citizens, then sure, why not. I think most countries offer an absentee ballot...Look at us, acting like voting means a feckin' thing anyways. I'm abroad myself, if I had the vote in Ireland, I wouldn't bother my hole. I've voted a few times there but didn't bother in the last couple of elections.

Blind lead the blind

Kermit.de.frog

The problem I have with emigrants is the people that are getting this country back on it's feet stayed to face the music. Now the economy is on the up again the first in the door will be the deserters to stake a claim.

I would be against giving work to emigrants who left this country ahead of those who stayed.

But that is OT. They should not have a vote in general elections, end of.

csm

You'd rather they'd have stayed and claimed the dole then?

iba

anncoates wrote: »

They don't live here, don't pay taxes here etc. They can vote in the country in which they live.

All Irish Diplomats pay tax whilst abroad through the Irish taxation system, they pay PRSI, they pay income tax, they pay the universal tax

In addition, Irish diplomats are all subject to water charges, property tax etc

Galwayguy35

No.

I don't want the Government that will run the country being decided by people who no longer live here.

Jinonatron

As an emigrant who lives in Germany I don't think I should be able to vote in an Irish election simply because I am not paying tax there. Why should I affect the lives of the people who live there for issues such as government etc.

I think however referenda are different. If there is a referendum on abortion and same sex marriage I would head home to vote yes as I think people effected by those issues should be treated fairly. I don't think it's fair that gay people or irish women who want an abortion are not allowed to because a backwardbunch of lunatics wanna enforce their wishes on others. It's not any of their business.

irishmover

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

No.

I don't want the Government that will run the country being decided by people who no longer live here.

Because the government which has been decided by the people actually living in Ireland has been running the country any better??

Wompa1

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The problem I have with emigrants is the people that are getting this country back on it's feet stayed to face the music. Now the economy is on the up again the first in the door will be the deserters to stake a claim.

I would be against giving work to emigrants who left this country ahead of those who stayed.

But that is OT. They should not have a vote in general elections, end of.

If everybody stayed the country would be even more f*cked than it is.

I left in 2012 by choice, I wasn't let go from my job it wasn't because of the hard economic times but I did pay top rate of tax for a few years, worked a total 15 years there...PRSI, USC and all of that crap. When I left that opened up a job for somebody who may have needed it more. Also, before I left, the recession benefitted me! In my last 2 years the cost of the essentials came down..I didn't leave when things were at their worst. I don't mind not being able to vote but that sentiment that people deserted is so stupid...

Also, if people went back there now, I think the pot is less sweet than it was in 2012! The price of rent and homes has gone up, the cost of the essentials has gone up. Property taxes and waters charges have\are being introduced.

Also, before the economy crashed. People still went to Australia for a year or two...it became more common, alright but in the long run the country will have benefitted from them leaving more than if they stayed.

Also, think about what bringing people back from other countries could do for the place. Pat McDonagh from Supremacs said in a radio interview that he liked hiring people in their offices that had experience in other countries and saw how things are done in other places...I know, personally I've seen how things are done in large corporations in the states. Something I only got a sniff of when working from Ireland.

RDM_83 again

Jinonatron wrote: »

I think however referenda are different. If there is a referendum on abortion and same sex marriage I would head home to vote yes as I think people effected by those issues should be treated fairly. I don't think it's fair that gay people or irish women who want an abortion are not allowed to because a backwardbunch of lunatics wanna enforce their wishes on others. It's not any of their business.

Interesting so your saying that Irish people who stay in Ireland are a "backwards bunch of lunatics" compared to those who emigrate, its also not even that likely that your idea would be that beneficial to achieving the result you desire since there is a large highly motivated deeply conservative bunch of Irish-Americans who are entitled to citizenship.
And if run the idea of Referendums only being for recent emigrants you will have to sort out the NI issue first.

Grayson

csm wrote: »

I'm a 'deserter' who lives in Aus and would love to come home. I grew up in Ireland. Most of my family and friends live there. I have a deep connection to the country and I would say I'm better informed about political subjects in Ireland than a lot of residents. I would have the following:

Presidential - yes, but diluted
Referendum - no
Dail - yes, but heavily diluted (e.g. all emigrants get one seat to vote for)

I would also limit it to emigrants (citizens who have been resident in Ireland at some stage). Possibly even those who have been registered to vote in Ireland. That and the dilution would address the concerns of having 20million passport-holders decide the fate of 4.5 million residents, while avoiding the complete disenfranchising of someone who goes abroad for work for a few years.

How about a few seanad seats instead of a Dail seat that can be voted on remotely by Irish immigrants? It gives them a say but no actual power.

As for people living here, I think an resident (especially an EU one) for 10 years or more should have full voting rights. I have a few Polish friends who got Irish passports, but the effort they had to go through was ridiculous. I know many others who wouldn't do it because they have no need for the passport. However they're not going anywhere. They've settled down, bought houses, had children. They're here for the long haul.

jank

Yes, of course. There is strong talk of enabling this for the next presidential election.
This is Ireland though, so new ideas like this is like watching the polar ice caps melt.

jank

Oh and the poll is wrong. It should be no taxation without representation.

anncoates

iba wrote: »

All Irish Diplomats pay tax whilst abroad through the Irish taxation system, they pay PRSI, they pay income tax, they pay the universal tax

In addition, Irish diplomats are all subject to water charges, property tax etc

Is everybody that emigrates from the country automatically a diplomat these days?

Rubberchikken

we can't get enough people, especially the young, living here to show an interest in voting when required. hard to imagine how the govt would manage to convince people who had the sense to leave to take the time in a foreign country to vote.


i do agree though with the fact that those that have worked abroad come back with a broader experience that those that remain.

c_man

I think they should have the vote for Presidential elections. No problem with that. I see where people are coming from in regards to Dail elections, so maybe have a set number of TDs (3??) set aside for emigrants. Their own consistency like

The_Captain

People on this board seem to be struggling to distinguish between emigrants and people of Irish descent.

Emigrants could well be repatriating money directly, or often people go abroad for a few years then move back here.

shruikan2553

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The problem I have with emigrants is the people that are getting this country back on it's feet stayed to face the music. Now the economy is on the up again the first in the door will be the deserters to stake a claim.

I would be against giving work to emigrants who left this country ahead of those who stayed.

But that is OT. They should not have a vote in general elections, end of.

Bless your ikle heart. Will you be first in line for your saviour of the country award? I got the man at the door offering me untold riches if I left but I handed him back the ticket, looked off to the horizon, and as an Irish flag dropped behind me I said no, I will never leave, I will stay and help rebuild this country.

It wasn't as if I was too lazy to bother going anywhere so just kept things as they were and stayed.

rainbow kirby

I would favour giving the vote to emigrants for their first 5-7 years outside of Ireland - someone who was born, raised and educated in Ireland but emigrated as an adult will have much stronger ties to the country and is more likely to return and face the consequences of their vote than someone who is an Irish citizen by virtue of one Irish grandparent in the US.

Feels like my vote is trying to do the same thing regardless of whether I'm voting in Ireland or the UK though, get rid of the right wing scum that's in power.

Deenie123

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I would favour giving the vote to emigrants for their first 5-7 years outside of Ireland - someone who was born, raised and educated in Ireland but emigrated as an adult will have much stronger ties to the country and is more likely to return and face the consequences of their vote than someone who is an Irish citizen by virtue of one Irish grandparent in the US.

Feels like my vote is trying to do the same thing regardless of whether I'm voting in Ireland or the UK though, get rid of the right wing scum that's in power.

The current lot arent right wing, theyre just self serving.