Track bikes - general discussion

lennymc

How does track bike sizing work - is it the same as road bike or smaller, or bigger or does it depend on the type of track bike?

Beasty

Same certainly when using the drops. Having said that I'm currently evaluating options for a slightly smaller pursuit/TT bike (my road TT bike is one size smaller than my general road bikes already). You are basically looking at the same bike fit on the road and the track

lennymc

cheers beasty.

RockWerchter

For drop bars, my road and track bikes are 58 seat tubes with a longer reach on the track bike by 2cm. For pursuits the reach is the same as the road bike but a lot lower with a -17 degree stem. And the elbow pads are obviously at shorter reach again.

Harrybelafonte

I agree with Beasty on keeping to road and track. I have a 570mm TT on road with a 579mm TT on track and a 120mm on both. Pursuit stem is 90mm and some messing with the pads as I had issues fitting my pursuit bars into UCI regulations.

nak

Same size for me from same manufacturer.

Beasty

I would add that I have the drop bars on the track bike quite a lot lower than on the road bike. That's because the races are a lot shorter - rarely more than 10 mins or so for me meaning I can hold the lower position for the duration of the race, which I would never be able to do in a road race (although you can spend most of the time on the hoods on the road, and that is definitely frowned upon when track racing)

Harrybelafonte

Longest race is (I think) 25-30 minutes depending on how fast/slow you are.

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Longest race is (I think) 25-30 minutes depending on how fast/slow you are.

Think the longest I've done in the track league is 12 laps! Also did a scratch race at the European Masters that was 7.5km and just over 10 mins. Yes when you're competing at the nationals and the like there is a relatively long points race (and very long madison, but not in Ireland) but it's not something I need to worry about!

Harrybelafonte

Beasty wrote: »

Think the longest I've done in the track league is 12 laps! Also did a scratch race at the European Masters that was 7.5km and just over 10 mins. Yes when you're competing at the nationals and the like there is a relatively long points race (and very long madison, but not in Ireland) but it's not something I need to worry about!

Maybe not, but I was presuming Lenny will be taking part in National events, hence my comment on times, rather than correcting what you were saying yourself. Points race in International GP was more laps than I can remember, 60?

Some of us are also mumbling about trying Madison at Sundrive. Nothing may come of it, but we'll see.

As for the original question, there used to be a 1 cm smaller rule for track bikes, I've been told this was to make them stiffer. This doesn't really apply anymore.

eeeee

It would be deadly to have a madison, I have never done one. Scary but awesome!

Re sizing, my track and road bike are the same but I don't know enough about it to advise. I'd love a smaller pursuit bike to get down super low but I don't know how much of an advantage that would be.

Race length, there is a 40 lap for us 60 lap for men points race in the National Omnium this year, there are 20 lap ladies scratch races at the nationals too I think? That'd be the longest though I think.

You'll be longest in the drops for warm ups at the track sessions than racing the league.

Beasty

Well I reckon a madison at Sundrive may help keep numbers down .....

(wouldn't want to be anywhere near one of those slingshots, never mind participate!)

eeeee

Beasty wrote: »

Well I reckon a madison at Sundrive may help keep numbers down .....

(wouldn't want to be anywhere near one of those slingshots, never mind participate!)

Be so much fun though…maybe one Monday night session could be a mini madison. Only people who are safe get to participate!

RobFowl

Beasty wrote: »

Well I reckon a madison at Sundrive may help keep numbers down .....

(wouldn't want to be anywhere near one of those slingshots, never mind participate!)

Have to say the pursuit to me is the purest form of cycle racing but the thought of riding a madison really excites me. Can see myself and lenny rocking that one

Harrybelafonte

@Gadetra Lower isn't always better in pursuit. At some point the angle inhibts leg power.

I've practiced Madison there before. You'd wanna really trust your partner and considering the number of crashes this year and numbers showing up, there may not be a taste for it.

nak

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

@Gadetra Lower isn't always better in pursuit. At some point the angle inhibts leg power.

I've practiced Madison there before. You'd wanna really trust your partner and considering the number of crashes this year and numbers showing up, there may not be a taste for it.

Especially on concrete.

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

@Gadetra Lower isn't always better in pursuit. At some point the angle inhibts leg power.

On aerobars it pretty much always inhibits power - I lose about 25w or so compared to the road bike (and that's reckoned not to be too bad). The point is, of course, there is a trade off with the aerodynamic benefits. The problem though is working out where the best balance is. That's not easy to establish when you only get the opportunity to do the testing outdoors where the aero part of it is going to be influenced by the weather

Harrybelafonte

Beasty wrote: »

On aerobars it pretty much always inhibits power - I lose about 25w or so compared to the road bike (and that's reckoned not to be too bad). The point is, of course, there is a trade off with the aerodynamic benefits. The problem though is working out where the best balance is. That's not easy to establish when you only get the opportunity to do the testing outdoors where the aero part of it is going to be influenced by the weather

I believe that it's partially in the mind. It's easier to push through the pain of a pursuit when you can feel the difference your legs are making rather than thinking of how aero you are. I'm happy with a decently flat back and pushing.

We're going OT now no?

lennymc

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

We're going OT now no?

I don't mind.

Cheers for the tips y'all. Looking at a Giant Om nom nium for next year. My TT is about 535 on the road bike, so it looks like I would be looking at a small which has a TT of 535.

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

We're going OT now no?

No harm in continuing to have a natter amongst some of the trackies and allowing the discussion to evolve a little. We're certainly not going wildly off-track;)

lennymc

Beasty wrote: »

We're certainly not going wildly off-track;)

I feel that I should report that pun....

So any opinions on the giant nomnium?

eeeee

lennymc wrote: »

I feel that I should report that pun....

So any opinions on the giant nomnium?

A couple of people have them, I have never tried one but they look nice. The people who have one really know what they're doing which is as positive an endorsement as you can get I suppose!

Ya gonna come training and race the league? More Boardsie Track people yeahie!

Harrybelafonte

THe Giant has a good rep and is aimed at more endurance type events. The SRAM Omnium cranks are fine and I'm sure the wheels will be grand too. It'll be bang on sytaight out of the box. I'd pick up a few chainrings and at least 14/15/16 cogs too

Harrybelafonte

Just saw price...sheesh! Go for Planet X

lennymc

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Just saw price...sheesh! Go for Planet X

any other recomendations harry?

the nomnium comes with 13, 14, 15 and 16 as standard with a 48 up front.

Harrybelafonte

lennymc wrote: »

any other recomendations harry?

the nomnium comes with 13, 14, 15 and 16 as standard with a 48 up front.

Get best frame you can, second hand sugino 75s and get wheels built up yourself. Everything else will be stuff you prob have spare. Fuji, giant, cervelo, Hoy, Dolan etc. Dolan usually have sale on track frames.

Beasty

Currently contemplating BMC TR01 or the Felt TK1 as something solely for TTs and pursuit. Problem is sourcing a frameset, particularly in Ireland. CI use Felts though so maybe I need to try an call in a favour:) (although the sizing I would go for is about a centimetre smaller than I would and currently use on the road TT bikes)

lennymc

@beasty - can you change the name of the thread to general track bike discussion or something

@ gadetra - I did some track last year, but I hope to do much more track next year, as my racing time will be limited, what with the bambino and that. I plan on doing the league, and some of the national events.

I think that my strengths are with shorter events, rather than the longer events, and would like a track bike that would allow me be competitive (as much as possible with the bike) but also one that would allow me grow as my track skills develop. I did have a fuji track bike before, but unfortunately the frame cracked. It was replaced under warranty with a lovely carbon fuji jobbie that I promptly sold. LOL. I had considered the nomnium as it looks like a good all rounder, and my lbs can supply it. Budget is in or around 1000 - 1200 for the complete bike.

Any suggestions welcome!

Beasty

lennymc wrote: »

@beasty - can you change the name of the thread to general track bike discussion or something

Done

lennymc wrote: »

I think that my strengths are with shorter events

People coming from the road to the track generally do better in the endurance events. The "shorter" events for the track generally start at 200m. I would have thought you would be more of an endurance track cyclist than a sprinter lenny

Harrybelafonte

Having a sprint on the road and being a track sprinter are two very separate things, that doesn't mean someone from road is not a fast sprinter, but they're overlooking the endurance they have.

My impression is that road riders have difficulties with the longer periods of high speed that are involved in track endurance events and get worn down quicker, hence the impression that shorter races suit them better.

I've also had road riders talk to me about their watt output in a sprint and not realise it's the exact same as mine, and I'm not a sprinter. Have a look at the results from the Duane Delaney and check out some of the roadies in the Bs and Cs there who are regarded as good road sprinters and check their 200m times to those of the As to see what I mean.

I'm open to correction in all that and am sure I've stepped on some toes, but there you go.

Matt Bianco

For someone coming from a touring background and hoping to race on the track next year for the first time, do you have any advice of what winter training to be doing that would lay a good foundation for the open training in Sundrive in February? Any gym work that should be incorporated?

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Having a sprint on the road and being a track sprinter are two very separate things, that doesn't mean someone from road is not a fast sprinter, but they're overlooking the endurance they have.



My impression is that road riders have difficulties with the longer periods of high speed that are involved in track endurance events and get worn down quicker, hence the impression that shorter races suit them better.



I've also had road riders talk to me about their watt output in a sprint and not realise it's the exact same as mine, and I'm not a sprinter. Have a look at the results from the Duane Delaney and check out some of the roadies in the Bs and Cs there who are regarded as good road sprinters and check their 200m times to those of the As to see what I mean.



I'm open to correction in all that and am sure I've stepped on some toes, but there you go.

Let's face it when it comes to the track Cav is definitely an endurance specialist

Harrybelafonte

Matt Bianco wrote: »

For someone coming from a touring background and hoping to race on the track next year for the first time, do you have any advice of what winter training to be doing that would lay a good foundation for the open training in Sundrive in February? Any gym work that should be incorporated?

Some do weights work, some don't. With the touring you'll be plenty fit I'd say. I wouldn't worry too much until the sessions start. You have until May before any racing starts. Just do what you'd normally do. Are you in a club?

Edited to add: I am not a coach, I'm just opinionated so take what i advise with a heap of salt.

Matt Bianco

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Some do weights work, some don't. With the touring you'll be plenty fit I'd say. I wouldn't worry too much until the sessions start. You have until May before any racing starts. Just do what you'd normally do. Are you in a club?

Yes in a club but they are only in the process of promoting a team towards competing next year in the league so wanted to preempt the season start with turbo work. Was going to incorporate some climbing on the big ring to training spins to build on building leg power as opposed to spinning up the climbs and taken up a couple of Andy Kennys spinning classes as well.

Have concentrated until now on longer sportives/ audax and looking forward to the new challenge of the track.

Harrybelafonte

Beasty wrote: »

Let's face it when it comes to the track Cav is definitely an endurance specialist

Exactly

Matt Bianco wrote: »

Yes in a club but they are only in the process of promoting a team towards competing next year in the league so wanted to preempt the season start with turbo work. Was going to incorporate some climbing on the big ring to training spins to build on building leg power as opposed to spinning up the climbs and taken up a couple of Andy Kennys spinning classes as well.

Have concentrated until now on longer sportives/ audax and looking forward to the new challenge of the track.

We're generally taught to work on fitness during winter with long group spins, some cadence work and some gym work. The we start building leg strength closer to racing. But like I said, I'm not a coach.

Beasty

Matt Bianco wrote: »

For someone coming from a touring background and hoping to race on the track next year for the first time, do you have any advice of what winter training to be doing that would lay a good foundation for the open training in Sundrive in February? Any gym work that should be incorporated?

Are you accredited for Sundrive? If not that's going to be a requirement before you can take part in the training sessions. If you are and you start the training sessions when they kick off around February you should be well conditioned for the track league when it starts around the end of April/early May if you are getting long rides in over the winter.

The Sundrive coaches will be able to give you a steer but I've never done any gym work in previous years (although am certainly now doing some work on the core as part of my rehab but also as it's something that's encouraged for all cycling disciplines)

Matt Bianco

Beasty wrote: »

Are you accredited for Sundrive? If not that's going to be a requirement before you can take part in the training sessions. If you are and you start the training sessions when they kick off around February you should be well conditioned for the track league when it starts around the end of April/early May if you are getting long rides in over the winter.

The Sundrive coaches will be able to give you a steer but I've never done any gym work in previous years (although am certainly now doing some work on the core as part of my rehab but also as it's something that's encouraged for all cycling disciplines)

Have been accredited in Sundrive but didn't get the chance to take part in training session as was one of last accreditation sessions before the winter break

Thanks for all the pointers and hope to see you all out there - following the Sundrive thread was one of the factors which helped me decide to take part

eeeee

Basically if you go to the sessions you'll be in good shape for the league. It's what I did this year and it went fine. I was coming from a base of pretty much nothing so if you have anything in your legs at all you're going to do alright.

Harrybelafonte

Matt Bianco wrote: »

Have been accredited in Sundrive but didn't get the chance to take part in training session as was one of last accreditation sessions before the winter break

Thanks for all the pointers and hope to see you all out there - following the Sundrive thread was one of the factors which helped me decide to take part

You need to do one training session before full accreditation. You'll need to tell them this when you show up for that first session.

lennymc

Went ahead and ordered the nomnium for january

lennymc

quick question - Quick release are a big no no on track, but what about the security skewers that you tighten with an allen key? Are they allowed?

Alek

Quick release are a big no no on track

I've heard about this: why exactly?

lennymc

i think it's in case you pull the wheel - the bolts get a much better grip when tightening the wheel compared to a qr.

RockWerchter

You'll get away with the allen key skewer on the front, don't know if it's officially allowed, but you'll get away with it at the nationals and league events.

Alek

i think it's in case you pull the wheel - the bolts get a much better grip when tightening the wheel compared to a qr.

Do you mean pulling the wheel in horizontal dropouts? I got it.

CramCycle

Alek wrote: »

Do you mean pulling the wheel in horizontal dropouts? I got it.

Happened in one of the last league races, one of the lads from Sundrive took of from a standing start and put so much force in the initial push that the wheel popped forward. I thought his foot had slipped initially.

Last year I done no training for the league but throughly enjoyed it.

This year I have lowered my gearing for the winter commutes and am really trying to build up my cadence. It felt like my limiting factor as I often felt fine but could not seem to spin any faster which I think came from pushing stupidly high gears all the time. Comfortably hitting 110+ whereas on the track last year, I was lucky to get over 90, legs just could not spin that fast.

lennymc

RockWerchter wrote: »

You'll get away with the allen key skewer on the front, don't know if it's officially allowed, but you'll get away with it at the nationals and league events.

cheers - that would mean I only need to buy one race wheel...

Harrybelafonte

QR Skewers aren't allowed because anything that might catch on anything is banned. Hex bolt skewers are fine for front. Many of the tri spoke etc come with hex.

You'll be surprised at how well your rear wheel needs to be tightened. One of biggest faults with track bikes is that the rear stays end up warped with all the tightening.

Harrybelafonte

lennymc wrote: »

Went ahead and ordered the nomnium for january

Andreas Muller apparently running his in Zesdaagse Vlaanderen-Gent

endacl

Beasty wrote: »

(although you can spend most of the time on the hoods on the road, and that is definitely frowned upon when track racing)

Staying on the hoods, or having them on a track bike in the first place?

:pac:

nak

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Andreas Muller apparently running his in Zesdaagse Vlaanderen-Gent

A lot of the 6 days riders are using Alumnium frames; Mark Cavendish included and one of the Americans is on a steel frame.