David Cameron: UK jihadists to be made stateless if they join Isil

RobYourBuilder

British jihadists who fight for Isil in Syria and Iraq are to be barred from returning home for at least two years to prevent terror attacks.

It is one of a series of new anti-terror laws being unveiled by David Cameron, including powers to strip teenage jihadists of their passports and to bar airlines from landing in the UK if they fail to provide passenger information.

Mr Cameron was due to make the announcement in an address to the Australian parliament. Britain must take action to deal with the threat posed by “foreign fighters planning attacks against our people”, he was expected to say.

More than 500 Britons have travelled to Iraq and Syria to take up arms with the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, and around half are thought to have returned to Britain. More than 200 people have been arrested over alleged terror threats in the past year.

Under new “temporary exclusion orders”, the fighters in Syria and Iraq will effectively be rendered stateless. They will be put on a “no fly list” and allowed to return to Britain only at the end of the two years and only if they submit to strict conditions which could include a curfew and surveillance. The orders barring them can also be renewed after two years.

Those who attempt to return in secret will face a five-year jail term under a new criminal offence.

Mr Cameron was due to address Australian MPs in Canberra early this morning, British time, ahead of the G20 meeting of world leaders this weekend.

“We have to deal with the threat of foreign fighters planning attacks against our people,” he was due to say. “But as well as dealing with the consequences of this threat, we also have to address its root cause.

“And let’s be frank: it’s not poverty, though of course our nations are united in tackling deprivation wherever it exists

“It’s not exclusion from the mainstream. Of course we have more to do but we are both successful multicultural democracies where opportunities abound.

“No, the root cause of the challenge we face is the extremist narrative. So we must confront this extremism in all its forms. We must ban extremist preachers from our countries. We must root out extremism from our schools, universities and prisons.”

The orders, to be signed off by the Home Secretary, would be made on the basis of “reasonable suspicion of involvement in terrorist activity”. It is thought that officers could travel abroad to interview suspected jihadists and determine whether they are to be barred.

When Mr Cameron first raised the prospect in August, Dominic Grieve, the former attorney general, said it was likely to be a “non starter” as making a person stateless is banned by the UN.

The new powers attempt to address the issue by providing for return under tough conditions.

They would also enable police and border officials at airports to seize the passports of suspected terrorists, including those aged under 18 on the spot. Currently the Home Secretary must approve such seizures individually under Royal prerogative, an unwieldy process.

Security services have raised concerns at a growing number of jihadist teenagers. Salma and Zahra Halane, academically high-flying 16-year-old twins from Manchester, travelled to Syria this year and are thought to have married Isil fighters. Jaffar Deghayes, a 17-year-old British Muslim from Brighton, is thought to have died fighting in Syria.

Airlines will be banned from flying terror suspects back to Britain and compelled to carry out additional passenger screening if requested. They will also be required by law to share passenger data. Those that fail to do so will face civil penalties, which could include banning them from landing in Britain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11230187/David-Cameron-UK-jihadists-to-be-made-stateless-if-they-join-Isil.html

A most welcome development. They have nailed their colours to their own particular mast. Let them live and enjoy their medieval paradise.

Along with Finland, Ireland is providing almost one per 1,400 Muslims living in the country.

New research carried out in 25 countries that have given official estimates of how many have travelled to fight in the war zones puts the number of Irish based foreign fighters at 25 to 30 out of a Muslim community here of 43,000.

This works out at 0.07pc of the Muslim community, which is a tiny minority but per capita puts Ireland at the top of the supply table, on the same mark as Finland and marginally ahead of Australia in third place.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ireland-tops-list-of-jihadi-fighters-in-foreign-wars-30563746.html

Should Ireland follow Britain's lead? I think that we should. Minister Fitzgerald is free to revoke naturalised citizenship if;

that the person to whom it was granted has, by any overt act, shown himself to have failed in his duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/en/act/pub/0026/sec0019.html

Kevin McCloud

Its saturday night op my brain is tired.

JonEBGud

Putin will sort them out.

policarp

TLDR But religion is a nuisance and a **** sturrer

in most places.

NoHornJan

We were there once.
The Empire Fights Back>

Sunnyisland

They all come live here while there waiting :-)

Awkward Badger

Along with Finland, Ireland is providing almost one per 1,400 Muslims living in the country.

All this "providing" and "supplying" talk makes it sound like we're sending them out as part of some sort of Jihad aid package or something.

masonchat

I think we have to follow suit or else we will become the destionation for all the extremists , why only 2 years should be banned from ever returning

Sheep Lover

Awkward Badger wrote: »

All this "providing" and "supplying" talk makes it sound like we're sending them out as part of some sort of Jihad aid package or something.

"For just 2 euro a month, you too can support Jamal in his quest to spill the blood of the infidels and restore greatness to Allah."

Victor

masonchat wrote: »

I think we have to follow suit or else we will become the destionation for all the extremists , why only 2 years should be banned from ever returning

Did you read the section of the article quoted above, where it is illegal to make someone stateless?

One eyed Jack

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Should Ireland follow Britain's lead? I think that we should.

Follow Britain's lead to do what exactly? Populist political posturing? Our politicians do enough of that already, and this is no different. From your own article -

When Mr Cameron first raised the prospect in August, Dominic Grieve, the former attorney general, said it was likely to be a “non starter” as making a person stateless is banned by the UN.

oppenheimer1

If the UK/USA weren't off conducting illegal wars in the Middle East then perhaps we wouldn't be in this predicament.

David Cameron won't be making anyone stateless since it is illegal. Its all posturing to shore up the Tory position to make them look "firm" in the face of this threat.

RobYourBuilder

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Follow Britain's lead to do what exactly? Populist political posturing? Our politicians do enough of that already, and this is no different. From your own article -

We can and should revoke naturalised Irish citizenship off of any naturalised Irish citizen is found to be a member of the ISIS/L. We have enough religious nutter here as is, ta very much.

One eyed Jack

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

We can and should revoke naturalised Irish citizenship off of any naturalised Irish citizen is found to be a member of the ISIS/L. We have enough religious nutter here as is, ta very much.

Sounds like silly scaremongering to me tbh. How many travel abroad to Syria and these places again? 25-30 out of 48,000, and we don't even know if those were naturalized citizens?

It all sounds great if you want to breed anti-Islamic sentiment and feed into people's fears about foreigners in this country, but apart from that it's all a bit meaningless and silly really.

RobYourBuilder

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Sounds like silly scaremongering to me tbh. How many travel abroad to Syria and these places again? 25-30 out of 48,000, and we don't even know if those were naturalized citizens?

Three Irish foreign born citizens have already been killed in the middle east during their Jihadi sojourns. This is not fear mongering. There are radical Irish based Islamists off fighting in the middle east. One of them was just 16.

Minister for Justice, Francis Fitzgerald, has already publicly stated that she is looking into the situation and that she may revoke naturalised citizenship off of such people.

DEFTLEFTHAND

It's mostly young 20 something Muslim clowns and wackjob college muppets who've joined their cause. Of course we've all also heard of the comfortable middle class Christian raised fools getting involved, some red headed English man ended up on a gurney the other day for instance. What a bloody idiot.

One eyed Jack

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Three Irish foreign born citizens have already been killed in the middle east during their Jihadi sojourns. This is not fear mongering. There are radical Irish based Islamists off fighting in the middle east. One of them was just 16.

Three people, and you're honestly suggesting it's not fear mongering? You know how the media is fond of blowing things out of proportion about people who blow things up.

Minister for Justice, Francis Fitzgerald, has already publicly stated that she is looking into the situation and that she may revoke naturalised citizenship off of such people.

Politicians are always "looking into situations", I've never put much faith in their ability to do much beyond that though.

masonchat

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Three people, and you're honestly suggesting it's not fear mongering? You know how the media is fond of blowing things out of proportion about people who blow things up.





Politicians are always "looking into situations", I've never put much faith in their ability to do much beyond that though.

Does it really matter if it is 3 or 3000 , what is being suggested is that any naturalised irish citizens who travel over there for no good should have their irish citizenship revoked and they should

suicide_circus

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Sounds like silly scaremongering to me tbh. How many travel abroad to Syria and these places again? 25-30 out of 48,000, and we don't even know if those were naturalized citizens?

It all sounds great if you want to breed anti-Islamic sentiment and feed into people's fears about foreigners in this country, but apart from that it's all a bit meaningless and silly really.

What sanctions do you suggest for those who enjoy the protection and privilege of British/Australian/etc citizenship and then go to fight for whatever medieval butchers are decimating communities across Iraq and Syria this month?

Nodin

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

A most welcome development. They have nailed their colours to their own particular mast. Let them live and enjoy their medieval paradise.

Yeah, there's no way that would backfire at all, ever.

RobYourBuilder

Nodin wrote: »

Yeah, there's no way that would backfire at all, ever.

Can you expand on your one liners?

Arresting these guys and bringing back, is the ultimate propaganda coup for the West. ISIS until now have held all the propaganda cards, and have also been incredibly successful in recruiting people out of their their cush western lives to go and fight over there - something which baffles politicians in the west.

You know what might work to counter that? Examples of guys who bought in to all that ISIS propaganda and who have gone over there and saw the reality. Guys who might be able to go around and talk at schools, at mosques, on TV, in the media, extolling how they used to believe in ISIS until they got there - and then they saw the brutal reality. A more powerful message coming from someone who went there, than coming from David Cameron.

Nodin

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Can you expand on your one liners?

.......................................................

You know what might work to counter that? Examples of guys who bought in to all that ISIS propaganda and who have gone over there and saw the reality. Guys who might be able to go around and talk at schools, at mosques, on TV, in the media, extolling how they used to believe in ISIS until they got there - and then they saw the brutal reality. A more powerful message coming from someone who went there, than coming from David Cameron.

What you extol in the second paragraph can't happen if they're made stateless, can it? And if anyone does become disillusioned, and is facing being made stateless, it doesn't really leave them a way out.

smurgen

Nodin wrote: »

What you extol in the second paragraph can't happen if they're made stateless, can it? And if anyone does become disillusioned, and is facing being made stateless, it doesn't really leave them a way out.

I'd normally agree with you on most items but I strongly disagree with you on this one.these people need to begin appreciating the lives provided to them by western countries.if they want to go off and fight in foreign wars then I think they need to make a choice.we don't leave other foreign criminals into the country so why should we leave people who may have committed atrocities in?

Nodin

smurgen wrote: »

I'd normally agree with you on most items but I strongly disagree with you on this one.these people need to begin appreciating the lives provided to them by western countries.if they want to go off and fight in foreign wars then I think they need to make a choice.we don't leave other foreign criminals into the country so why should we leave people who may have committed atrocities in?

There's an argument for charging them with an offence. It's the notion of making them stateless I object to.

Paramite Pie

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It all sounds great if you want to breed anti-Islamic sentiment and feed into people's fears about foreigners in this country, but apart from that it's all a bit meaningless and silly really.

Actually letting these people back in will only breed anti-Islamic sentiment and feed into people's fears about foreigners in this country. Any Muslim could be accosted on our streets accused of being a Jihadist (as silly as that is).

Banning Jihadists from returning with a hopefully strong backing from our various Muslim communities will show the public that we all stand together on this issue; it's unacceptable to allow war criminals to freely enter our countries.

Burying it under the rug just because some eejits will try to tarnish all Muslims is stupid. We've turned a blind eye to too many things in this country and it's never ended well.

Paco Rodriguez

I think this is the point of western axis facilitating the movements of jihadis to ISIL.
To get them out of their own country.

What better way to fight a terrorist that has the ability to vanish into society. Give them a common cause and they will stick their head out into the open.

Tugboats

I find the whole Isis thing rather embarrassing. FFs its a few moody muslims with pick up trucks,Ak47s and a twitter account, Obama and Cameron are struggling to deal with it:o They seem to be more concerned about not upsetting the Muslim world than actually dealing with Isis.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Yeah, there's no way that would backfire at all, ever.

Having them come back would be far worse than any potential backfire, we don't these "people" (I feel sick writing that) in our country.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

There's an argument for charging them with an offence. It's the notion of making them stateless I object to.

They're citizens of the unrecognized Islamic state, let Syria or Iraq take them in when IS inevitably collapses. I don't want scum like that in our country.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They're citizens of the unrecognized Islamic state, let Syria or Iraq take them in when IS inevitably collapses. I don't want scum like that in our country.

They can't be citizens of an unrecognised entity.

If they are to be ejected it has to be as a result of a transparent legal process, rather than knee jerk reaction.

Timberrrrrrrr

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Three people, and you're honestly suggesting it's not fear mongering? You know how the media is fond of blowing things out of proportion about people who blow things up.





Politicians are always "looking into situations", I've never put much faith in their ability to do much beyond that though.

Yup


Only 3



But!



It only takes one to strap on a vest full of explosives, nails, ballbearings, glass etc and to detonate it in the middle of a busy street or shopping center? You may see this as "scaremongering" but head off and search for suicide bomber aftermath videos and see what you think of the carnage.


Think it won't happen here?



Nobody would have believed Omagh could happen either

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

They can't be citizens of an unrecognised entity.

If they are to be ejected it has to be as a result of a transparent legal process, rather than knee jerk reaction.

That can't? Someone had better tell them because I don't think they realise.

Screw international law, that law obviously wasn't written with this situation in mind. A law that can't be changed is not one we should be bound by.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That can't? Someone had better tell them because I don't think they realise. .

I had no idea that belief = fact. I'd better start imagining the lifestyle of an international playboy in that instance.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

I had no idea that belief = fact. I'd better start imagining the lifestyle of an international playboy in that instance.

When it comes to states, if a significantly large group of people come together and declare themselves a state, they are a state whether recognised by the great powers or not.

Like I said the international law preventing us from making these scumbags tasteless obviously wasn't written with this instance in mind. We shouldn't be bound by any law we can't change.

Rough Sleeper

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Think it won't happen here?



Nobody would have believed Omagh could happen either

Nobody who was completely oblivious to the 30 or so previous years of incessant bombings that preceded it or to knowledge that some active paramilitary groups had not accepted the Good Friday Agreement, anyway.

If you want to find out more about this you should loom up the interesting little footnote in our island's history known as "The Troubles."

Timberrrrrrrr

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

Nobody who was completely oblivious to the 30 or so previous years of incessant bombings that preceded it or to knowledge that some active paramilitary groups had not accepted the Good Friday Agreement, anyway.

If you want to find out more about this you should loom up the interesting little footnote in our island's history known as "The Troubles."

So Omagh came as no surprise to you?

:rolleyes:

crockholm

Same ol claptrap from the same ol clapped out posters-"It's not islamism that we should fear,it's Islamophobia"

Any of the returning jihadists that have gained Irish citizenship,other than being born here,should have their citizenship rescinded and they can go back to using the passport they used to gain entry to the country.

Any Irish born jihadi who has fought under the ISIL/AL Nursa front needs to be brought Before the Courts and if found guilty imprisoned in an isolated ward so that they can't proselytize the general prison population,(I understand that this is a problem in the UK and Continental prisons)

Given that we are often told that the vast majority of muslims are good peaceful Citizens,I don't see there being much protest against such methods other that the hardliners and cultural marxists.

end of the road

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11230187/David-Cameron-UK-jihadists-to-be-made-stateless-if-they-join-Isil.html

A most welcome development. They have nailed their colours to their own particular mast. Let them live and enjoy their medieval paradise.



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ireland-tops-list-of-jihadi-fighters-in-foreign-wars-30563746.html

Should Ireland follow Britain's lead? I think that we should. Minister Fitzgerald is free to revoke naturalised citizenship if;



http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/en/act/pub/0026/sec0019.html

bottom of the barrel bull**** to appeal to the daily mail types. do they stop being terrorists after 2 years? seems he picked these numbers out of thin air. frankly britain has no right to leave people stateless, british citizens britains responsibility. but of course britain never takes any responsibility for anything so this isn't surprising. thankfully i suspect this is a non starter. how are they going to prove someone "returned in secret" you couldn't make this **** up.

Iwasfrozen

end of the road wrote: »

bottom of the barrel bull**** to appeal to the daily mail types. do they stop being terrorists after 2 years? seems he picked these numbers out of thin air. frankly britain has no right to leave people stateless, british citizens britains responsibility. but of course britain never takes any responsibility for anything so this isn't surprising. thankfully i suspect this is a non starter. how are they going to prove someone "returned in secret" you couldn't make this **** up.

And Irish citizens who do the same? Are they Ireland's problem? If so how do we solve it?

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

When it comes to states, if a significantly large group of people come together and declare themselves a state, they are a state whether recognised by the great powers or not.
...............

A few yahoos running around the place does not a state constitute.

end of the road

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

We can and should revoke naturalised Irish citizenship off of any naturalised Irish citizen is found to be a member of the ISIS/L. We have enough religious nutter here as is, ta very much.

no we shouldn't. irish citizens, irelands responsibility. if they wish to return to ireland we have no right to refuse them thankfully.

Nodin

crockholm wrote: »

Same ol claptrap from the same ol clapped out posters-"It's not islamism that we should fear,it's Islamophobia"

Any of the returning jihadists that have gained Irish citizenship,other than being born here,should have their citizenship rescinded and they can go back to using the passport they used to gain entry to the country.).

On what grounds?

crockholm wrote: »

Any Irish born jihadi who has fought under the ISIL/AL Nursa front needs to be brought Before the Courts and if found guilty imprisoned in an isolated ward so that they can't proselytize the general prison population,(I understand that this is a problem in the UK and Continental prisons).

I'd file that one in the same drawer as the notion of using prisoners serving sentences for specific crimes being used for medical experiments.

Palmach

Nodin wrote: »

A few yahoos running around the place does not a state constitute.

It is a hell of a lot more than a few yahoos http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/war-with-isis-islamic-militants-have-army-of-200000-claims-kurdish-leader-9863418.html

The Independent has been very good on the whole ISIS thing.

end of the road

masonchat wrote: »

Does it really matter if it is 3 or 3000 , what is being suggested is that any naturalised irish citizens who travel over there for no good should have their irish citizenship revoked and they should

effectively making other countries responsible or being potentially at risk because ireland refuses to take responsibility for its citizens. any country who removes citizenship from its citizens looses any legitimacy and is infact no longer a state, as it means it expects other states to take responsibility for its citizens

Timberrrrrrrr

end of the road wrote: »

no we shouldn't. irish citizens, irelands responsibility. if they wish to return to ireland we have no right to refuse them thankfully.

And if they then go on to blow up a cinema/bar/street?

end of the road

masonchat wrote: »

Does it really matter if it is 3 or 3000 , what is being suggested is that any naturalised irish citizens who travel over there for no good should have their irish citizenship revoked and they should

they shouldn't. irelands problem, not another countries

suicide_circus wrote: »

What sanctions do you suggest for those who enjoy the protection and privilege of British/Australian/etc citizenship and then go to fight for whatever medieval butchers are decimating communities across Iraq and Syria this month?

they're is all ready laws in britain to deal with such problems.

Nodin

Palmach wrote: »

It is a hell of a lot more than a few yahoos http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/war-with-isis-islamic-militants-have-army-of-200000-claims-kurdish-leader-9863418.html

The Independent has been very good on the whole ISIS thing.

Seeing as no-one else of any credibility comes up with a figure even vaguely resembling that one, you'll pardon me if I take it with salt added.

end of the road

smurgen wrote: »

I'd normally agree with you on most items but I strongly disagree with you on this one.these people need to begin appreciating the lives provided to them by western countries.if they want to go off and fight in foreign wars then I think they need to make a choice.we don't leave other foreign criminals into the country so why should we leave people who may have committed atrocities in?

no different to the british army in fairness. go off to fight foreign wars then return. some have commited atrocities. therefore the british government is effectively agreeing that the british army should be stateless as they have done nothing different to these lot bar being sent to war by the government on bogus nonsense, whereas the lads gone to syria are fighting for the new bogy man who the west was willing to support at one stage.

crockholm

Nodin wrote: »

On what grounds?


I'd file that one in the same drawer as the notion of using prisoners serving sentences for specific crimes being used for medical experiments.

I don't care what you Think,and that's actually a common sentiment around here.

end of the road

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They're citizens of the unrecognized Islamic state, let Syria or Iraq take them in when IS inevitably collapses. I don't want scum like that in our country.

can't be done. they are irelands responsibility if irish citizens, and britains responsibility if british citizens. not syria or iraqs

Timberrrrrrrr

Nodin wrote: »

On what grounds?


I'd file that one in the same drawer as the notion of using prisoners serving sentences for specific crimes being used for medical experiments.

I would be ok with this, along with harvesting their organs at death to save the lives of decent people.