POU /ERU under fire

Capri

Since I saw the Public Order Unit marking on the vans ( and why windowless vans instead of 'proper' minibuses with seatbelts - H&S ?? ) it struck me that this Gov't was preparing to subdue any protest against their policys.

Today the POU became a focal point in the Jobstown protest, the TD demanded they be withdrawn as their presence had inflamed the situation - I think that all these 'specialised units' ,including the Traffic Corps, are sending out the wrong message that they think themselves superior to the ordinary member on the beat ( in conversations with a lot of 'ordinary' members, they seem to despise these 'special units' :rolleyes: )
It reminds me of the Ferguson shooting in the US when the Highway patrol replaced the local police as they were seen as more 'impartial' than the specialised local police (who were all white ?) When some here see the POU /ERU it makes matters worse rather than better :mad:

Would it not be better to train up members in various skills (Traffic / Firearms / Riot duty ) and move them around rather than putting them up on a pedestal ??

unattendedbag

Public order unit are made up from uniformed members who have been trained. They are pulled off working units or on overtime when required.

Capri

unattendedbag wrote: »

Public order unit are made up from uniformed members who have been trained. They are pulled off working units or on overtime when required.

I know that, but what I'm saying is that the perception out there is that the 'Public Order Unit' markings and uniform are like a red rag to a bull, whereas if the trained members just showed up in regular minibuses in regular uniform it wouldn't create that division between their fellow Gardai / members of the public ?
When you create specalised units / forces there's always going to be a competitive element there to 'show off' to their fellow officers that they won the prize and got better equipment

Capri

Capri wrote: »

I know that, but what I'm saying is that the perception out there is that the 'Public Order Unit' markings and uniform are like a red rag to a bull, whereas if the trained members just showed up in regular minibuses in regular uniform it wouldn't create that division between their fellow Gardai / members of the public ?
When you create specalised units / forces there's always going to be a competitive element there to 'show off' to their fellow officers that they won the prize and got better equipment

Public order units are not deployed at peaceful protests. Watch the videos and see how objects were thrown at uniformed and plain clothes Gardaí.

Also, your opinion is a bit stupid really. Specialist units are there because they have a particular role. Not everything can be done by the regular uniform Gardaí. I've yet to see one "show off".

unichall

Capri wrote: »

I know that, but what I'm saying is that the perception out there is that the 'Public Order Unit' markings and uniform are like a red rag to a bull, whereas if the trained members just showed up in regular minibuses in regular uniform it wouldn't create that division between their fellow Gardai / members of the public ?
When you create specalised units / forces there's always going to be a competitive element there to 'show off' to their fellow officers that they won the prize and got better equipment

While I understand your take on things I don't think you understand the situation fully. They have the ability to bus in countless numbers of 'uniform' members from surrounding districts and divisions if need be but what happens when they come under fire from missiles and attacks from unruly elements of these protests? They will be ill equipped to deal with these situations and I dare say the gardai would come under even more scrutiny and criticism for this.

The POU are drafted in when situations are beyond the control of the 'uniform' officer on the beat and a tactical operation is required to regain/retain order. As for ERU they have an entirely different role to play and would not attend your average public order incident so I'm not sure why they are mentioned in the title.

Capri

The POU are drafted in when situations are beyond the control of the 'uniform' officer on the beat and a tactical operation is required to regain/retain order.

Well I suppose some favour the 'Shock and awe' tactics, but I favour the 'Silent power' approach.Bit like the difference between the marked up Volvo XC70's and unmarked Mondeo 3.0's / Isuzu 3.2 Troopers - the Mondeos / Troopers probably gets better results whereas the Volvo's are useful but more for the 'publicity' saying 'There's armed Gardai in your area', but it also means the criminals go to ground until the 'specialist (marked up) units are gone from the area - with the powerful unmarked vehicles it's not as easy for the criminals to see them coming

Back to jobstown - 2 Youths AFIK were arrested out of a crowd of 100+, pics in the paper show ordinary members protecting the Tanaiste so they were doing a good job without any assistance,a brick was only thrown after the POU arrived so why did the POU weigh in in the first place

As regards 'showing off', had a house under surveillance when out of the blue the SDU showed up with blues n' twos - surveillance blown, suspect probably out the back door ! :mad::mad:

Capri

Capri wrote: »

Back to jobstown - 2 Youths AFIK were arrested out of a crowd of 100+, pics in the paper show ordinary members protecting the Tanaiste so they were doing a good job without any assistance,a brick was only thrown after the POU arrived so why did the POU weigh in in the first place

Maybe you should stop listening to the 'peaceful protesters' and watch the videos before the Public Order Unit were deployed.

Bruton is hit around the 3 min mark.

Female hit around the 5 min mark.

Yup. It was all the fault of the Public Order Unit.

I take it you are claiming to be a mule? If so, are you a Rambo style one who doesn't need the support of all these specialist units? They just cramp your style?

unattendedbag

Capri wrote: »

I know that, but what I'm saying is that the perception out there is that the 'Public Order Unit' markings and uniform are like a red rag to a bull, whereas if the trained members just showed up in regular minibuses in regular uniform it wouldn't create that division between their fellow Gardai / members of the public ?
When you create specalised units / forces there's always going to be a competitive element there to 'show off' to their fellow officers that they won the prize and got better equipment

There's no competitive element at all between units. Guards are glad to have them there for back up and for them to step in when needed. When it starts raining bricks and a group of angry protectors are threatening violence then the lads with the shields and helmets are the best guards to be facing the scene. The decision to deploy them lies way up the chain and to date a lot of restraint has been used.

Schindlers Pissed

Imagine that happening a Senator or whatever in the USA? The PO Unit would be the least of the "peaceful" protesters worries…..there would be shots fired…….

kub

Schindlers Pissed wrote: »

Imagine that happening a Senator or whatever in the USA? The PO Unit would be the least of the "peaceful" protesters worries…..there would be shots fired…….

Proper bloody order if there was here also, did anyone notice the terrified look on The Tanaiste's face?
I am no fan of The Labour Party or these water charges however as a citizen of this country I have respect for those in office.
If this was a peaceful protest then those protesting should have been across the road at the very least.
Pity the Public Order Unit were not there earlier at least the situation would have been dealt with long before it got out of hand.

markpb

Schindlers Pissed wrote: »

Imagine that happening a Senator or whatever in the USA? The PO Unit would be the least of the "peaceful" protesters worries…..there would be shots fired…….

Imagine what would happen if this had happened in the US. A water balloon would be the least of the senators protection details worries. There would be shots fired.

Daft statement, they're different countries.

cabledude

markpb wrote: »

Imagine what would happen if this had happened in the US. A water balloon would be the least of the senators protection details worries. There would be shots fired.

Daft statement, they're different countries.

Totally irrelevant. She is an elected member of the peoples parliament. She is also a member of the government. What happened to her is assault. In the US there would have been rubber bullets used on those who assaulted a member of the government. That is what should have happened in this instance. If we as a society generally cannot protect our representatives and government, who can we protect?

flyingmachine

foreign wrote: »

Maybe you should stop listening to the 'peaceful protesters' and watch the videos before the Public Order Unit were deployed.



Bruton is hit around the 3 min mark.



Female hit around the 5 min mark.

Yup. It was all the fault of the Public Order Unit.

I take it you are claiming to be a mule? If so, are you a Rambo style one who doesn't need the support of all these specialist units? They just cramp your style?

Is that female that got hit a guard. Makes no difference, I'm just wondering.

Likewise with the lap wearing the cap. he looks like he is trying to make an arrest.

flyingmachine

flyingmachine wrote: »

Is that female that got hit a guard. Makes no difference, I'm just wondering.

Likewise with the lap wearing the cap. he looks like he is trying to make an arrest.

I don't know. From the video it looks like it. But as you said, what difference does it make? The protest is not peaceful at this point.

coach23

feeding the trolls is dangerous

TallGlass

I think the people calling for shots and rubber bullets to be fired need to calm down. Yes, she is a government minister of a small island on the edge of Europe we are not America or anything like it, we are usually a peaceful bunch. We don't need the ERU opening fire on unarmed protesters.

I think the Garda have grievances with the government and so do the protesters obliviously. Everyone needs to calm down a little at these protests and keep there animal instincts in check both Garda, Ministers and the public. Enda Kenny needs to drop this water charge non-sense he's wasting far to much on it and it's greatly aggravating the general public wasting Garda resources and budget money.

Drop the charge, come back in a few years with a plan that will work and stop trying to fix this irreparably damaged company/charge.

Schindlers Pissed

markpb wrote: »

Imagine what would happen if this had happened in the US. A water balloon would be the least of the senators protection details worries. There would be shots fired.

Daft statement, they're different countries.

How is it a daft statement?? These protesters should be lucky they live in a tolerant society such as ours……imagine throwing an object at Barack Obama??

If a high ranking Minister of another country was trapped by a mob there would be shots fired. It also wouldn't be allowed happen in the first place.

We are drawing comparisons because it's a fact. The protesters should be aware that they wouldn't get away with acts like that anywhere else.

hardCopy

TallGlass wrote: »

I think the people calling for shots and rubber bullets to be fired need to calm down. Yes, she is a government minister of a small island on the edge of Europe we are not America or anything like it, we are usually a peaceful bunch. We don't need the ERU opening fire on unarmed protesters.

I think the Garda have grievances with the government and so do the protesters obliviously. Everyone needs to calm down a little at these protests and keep there animal instincts in check both Garda, Ministers and the public. Enda Kenny needs to drop this water charge non-sense he's wasting far to much on it and it's greatly aggravating the general public wasting Garda resources and budget money.

Drop the charge, come back in a few years with a plan that will work and stop trying to fix this irreparably damaged company/charge.

People have the right to protest peacefully all they want.

Nobody has the right to assault and intimidate our legally elected representatives, close O'Connell Bridge or harass water workers doing their job lawfully.

The country is not run by mob rule, no violent minority should be allowed to influence the government. (Love them or hate them)

For what it's worth I think the guards have shown great restraint to date in the face of extreme attempts to provoke them, contrast their behaviour now to Belnaboy a few years ago and Reclaim the Streets even further back. The Gung Ho approach seems to have been done away with.

Capri

More discreet presence at Mansion house yesterday - unmarked minibus



Just another point re POU and protesters - when 'Republicans'('Continuity' ?) closed O'Connell bridge and other streets last year (or 2012 ?) for c.1 hour where was the POU, or were they formed as a result of those events when ordinary members on the spot seemed impotent in the face of 'paramilitaries' I remember at the time thinking we needed the French CRS instead of the 'Garda Siciní' that seemed to be helping the protesters enforce closure of the bridge !

IMO There's a difference between paramilitaries deciding to close streets in the capital and people protesting against a badly handled gov't policy. ( I don't think the water charge per-se is huge What's €200 in the greater scheme of things, but having your PPS number 'sold' and Irish Water staff getting big bonuses pi*ses people off as we've seen )

um7y1h83ge06nx

It's situations like these that make me fear for the future of the country.

Here we have a bunch of people out of control and in many countries would be considered a security threat. Then we have a fairly impotent police force in the AGS that aren't able to enforce the law.

It's a recipe for disaster. I for one believe that if the state cannot adequately protect the Tanaiste, how can it hope to protect ordinary decent citizens from violent crime.

There should be more protections and provisions in place for people to defend themselves from criminals and the right to self defence protected.

BoatMad

but having your PPS number 'sold'

well that gone now. PPS was always a red herring anyway

cabledude

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

It's situations like these that make me fear for the future of the country.

Here we have a bunch of people out of control and in many countries would be considered a security threat. Then we have a fairly impotent police force in the AGS that aren't able to enforce the law.

It's a recipe for disaster. I for one believe that if the state cannot adequately protect the Tanaiste, how can it hope to protect ordinary decent citizens from violent crime.

There should be more protections and provisions in place for people to defend themselves from criminals and the right to self defence protected.

Thats the broad point I was trying to make. We put Joan Burton into the Dail. The Daíl elected her as Deputy Prime Minister. And we then stand by while her car is barricaded in for a couple of hours and has water balloons thrown at her. That was common assault and it as simple as that. The Gardai should have shown their full force after a member of the Government was assaulted. How would we react if she was assaulted by a mob in London. Or Munich? We go nuts. But its ok for a few Irish scummers to do it to her. A60 year old woman. Shameful.....

flyingmachine

Schindlers Pissed wrote: »

How is it a daft statement?? These protesters should be lucky they live in a tolerant society such as ours……imagine throwing an object at Barack Obama??

If a high ranking Minister of another country was trapped by a mob there would be shots fired. It also wouldn't be allowed happen in the first place.

We are drawing comparisons because it's a fact. The protesters should be aware that they wouldn't get away with acts like that anywhere else.

On that comparison why should we play €1.53c on petrol when its the equivalent of a euro in the US.

Why should we drive on the left when Europe drive on the right. Need I go on?

Its a childish example what I've done there but its the same as what your doing.

Also IF you did want to go down that road our TDs are lucky they are not in the likes of Greece/Turkey etc where there'd be riots and they'd have a lot more to worry about than water balloons.

We live in Ireland not the US or GB but Ireland so no matter how lucky you think we are not living anywhere else we are governed by Irish laws and by Irish law you won't get shot for heckling a TD or throwing water balloons at them.

BTW I'm not in agreement with what happened in Tallaght but I'm also like most middle class people and its getting very close to bread and butter stage and I'm someone who doesn't smoke/drink or gamble.

um7y1h83ge06nx

I think the last few days is yet another example of how the enforcement of the law needs to be examined and discussed.

Taking a soft approach to law and order has at least 3 consequences -

Law abiding citizens begin to think that they are unsafe and under threat, leading to fear, particularly among the vulnerable such as the elderly. An extreme consequence of this is people begin to enforce the law themselves.

Criminals and trouble makers see opportunities in soft law enforcement, the likelihood of facing punishtment for a variety of crimes decreases. International gangs, particularly drug gangs see Ireland as a good place to carry out some operations.

The ordinary rank and file Gardai become under increased threat of harassment, assault and murder as criminals, both serious and petty, do not see them as a threat or as a symbol of law and order.

Zambia

TD's that assemble mobs should have no input in how the gardai control the mob.

So far every mob I have seen is deserving of a public order unit.

AlekSmart

Kiera Substantial Keypunch wrote: »

It's situations like these that make me fear for the future of the country.

Here we have a bunch of people out of control and in many countries would be considered a security threat. Then we have a fairly impotent police force in the AGS that aren't able to enforce the law.

It's a recipe for disaster. I for one believe that if the state cannot adequately protect the Tanaiste, how can it hope to protect ordinary decent citizens from violent crime.

There should be more protections and provisions in place for people to defend themselves from criminals and the right to self defence protected.

The pair of Utubes posted in foreign's #7 portray only one "Shame" to me,that of voluntary ignorance.

The soundtrack's alone tell a more accurate tale than the mute versions do,and it's a sad tale indeed for Ireland,although not that surprising.


The other aspect is that the Situation was very obviously out-of-control from a point far earlier than is being admitted.

How the Tanaiste's car was then allowed to become surrounded (On private property ?) by an obviously volatile mob,is surely something for Garda senior management to ponder upon.

At one point in Clip2,a look of uncertainty,even concern can be seen on several uniformed Gardai,as if they realize the danger of their situation.

Paul Murphy,TD can try to play this down as much as he likes,but this incident was knife-edge,and nowhere near the "Young Lads messin around" line he has been peddling.

Not for nothing,is there a 6ft sharp-topped palisade fence around this "Community" facility.:(

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

Paul Murphy,TD can try to play this down as much as he likes,but this incident was knife-edge,and nowhere near the "Young Lads messin around" line he has been peddling.

He keeps using the brick incident as the only violence on the day. Completely ignoring everything that went on from the walk to what went on around the car.

FGR

Gardaí can only work with what they have. We have a Government incapable of supporting law and order and what results is a police service that has to attend public order events with both hands tied behind their back.

Such is the legacy of a lack of investment (financial or otherwise).

AlekSmart

foreign wrote: »

He keeps using the brick incident as the only violence on the day. Completely ignoring everything that went on from the walk to what went on around the car.

From my perspective Deputy Murphy appears to be an "innocent abroad"...a somewhat idealistic and delusional believer in something,of which he's not quite certain of yet.

However,he has found a broad church which now sees him as somebody who they can trust to stand up for them,and him with a University Degree too.

Human nauture,of itself is brutally unpredictable and prone to violent upheaval,which suits some agenda's to a T.

Much of this volatility,in the past has been released through organized means,such as Great Wars,Internal Rebellions and Tribal Strife.

Modern Ireland,is however in such a basically good state that revolutionaries have not really had much opportunity to find cause about which to revolt.

Most Irish people are savvy enough to recognize that things could be a hellofa lot worse,with very clear examples of just how much worse available 24/7 via the oul broadband from as close as Bulgaria,Romaina,Albania et al.....

It will be educational to see whether the "Monster Meetings" will continue at their current level,following the Irish Water climbdown,or whether the "Reasonable" people will do their sums and go..."Mmmmmmm I just might be able to get to the Algarve in January yet "

um7y1h83ge06nx

According to some of the papers today members of the INLA were involved in Jobstown.

Little CuChulainn

It's unfortunate that AGS cannot even speak up to defend themselves, let alone publish their own videos to counter the edited ones popping up on protest sites and pages. Hopefully we will see a number of arrests and prosecutions arising out of the video footage collected so far.