My problem with indies

richymcdermott

Indie games genre and all the focus being put on it I feel a majority of indie titles are quite shockingly poor and all the love and support the indie scene is getting I cannot fathom at times with the industry making it out to be indie scene is saving the industry with its innovative ideas and designs , sorry but I do not see it.

What I do see its a stock pile of Super Metroid clones that go from tribute to sheer stealing with worse artwork and plain gameplay design Guacamele being the game I am thinking of at the moment.



for every Journey and Flower that left me so captivating with its rich inner story, relaxation and left a ever lasting impression on me that I will never forget you get too much games that try to remind you off the 8bit- 16bit era but much much worse

a binding of issac is not going to replace the first time someone poped in zelda for the first time on the nes

shovel knights is not going to replace the magic of megaman

guacamelee even when the foundation is set in place has not even by the little touched super metroid or even castlevania.


I tried so many indie titles over the years to know they will not replace the big retail titles and only hold my attention for about 15 mins before I become bored.

Joe danger, Octopus dad, Super Meat Boy,trine,steamworld dig,monaco to name a few all I found to be very poor.

only ones I truly loved were Journey , flower and Spelunky

that's it really.

Generic Dreadhead

I kind of like the ones that make you feel it's the 16 bit era all over again, I'm a sap like that
But yes, it's seems like a lot of it is rubbish, especially this months PS Plus Instant Games Selection.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe this inspired the thread a little? Yes? No? Maybe So?
When I aw the 6 or whatever games being released my 1st though was "this is mostly indie ****"
i know there's a few gems in there, but did anyone honestly watch the advert/hype trailer for "coming this month" and think "Christ Luftrausers looks like a real gem i'm gonna be so moved and sink 20 hours into"?
I thought it looked like a game you'd get free with a graphics card in 2004
Also Frozen Synapse Prime looks like a €4.99 tower defense game on steam IMHO.
So much middling crap.

BUT I will say, at least they are doing what they want/love and not just part of the corporate machine

richymcdermott

I do not mind developers wanting to make a game they feel they would of made if they had the chance on the 8bit or 16 era but I am more frustrated and annoyed cause I know I played better 8 bit 16 bit games 20 years ago.

and alot of the stuff they made cant necessarily be done on the nes or megadrive , they are using tools now that are more powerful and they can achieve extra stuff that simply would not be possible but still cannot touch the classics on nes but they try to grab the audience over by using pixel bit artwork by hey remember the good aul days.


Its like oddworld new and tasty, the remastered version that tried to bring in new people and clean up alot of the art and make the games more easier with its puzzles it ruined the original for me, because I games in the bit era I know I played better games than indies these days trying to eith recapture and entice people of reminding them of the the golden age of gaming.

I can go back to link to the past over and over again, i cant go back a indie game that wants to be like it.


yes ps plus for november started all this. :P

johnny_ultimate

Firstly, I have to say it borders on ludicrous to try and generalise or pigeonhole 'indies'. All it refers to is games produced independently. Ranging from Elite:Dangerous to Desert Golfing, 'indie' is not a one size fit all description.

Secondly, there are tonnes of independent developers innovating - if you haven't found them, then honestly you haven't tried enough games. Papers, Please. Gone Home. Jazzpunk. Device 6. The Sailor's Dream. Stanley Parable. To The Moon. Passage. Defcon. The Vanishing of Ethan Carter. Games that genuinely push the boundaries of what games are capable of.

Are some independent developers over-reliant on retro stylings? Arguably. But also remember that retro graphics can be a cost effective solution, incredibly visually articulate and even a valuable marketing tool (which small games often need). It's also IMO reductive to dismiss all the games you mentioned above as clones or simplistic, shallow attempts to recapture past glories. The likes of Binding of Isaac actually deviate from their inspirations in radical ways, and become very unique entities in the process.

lertsnim

I really enjoyed Guacamelee. It was incredibly frustrating at times and when the platinum trophy popped it was sheer relief.

cherryghost

The indie scene as it is now offers much more to the videogames industry than commercial devs and publishers do in terms of innovation, atmosphere, treading off the beaten track etc.

If you have problems with Guacamelee then I don't know what mindset you are in tbh.

Retr0gamer

My only problem with vector graphics is some indie developers push disgusting looking vector art as retro.

Indie is just like any other scene. You get good games and bad ones, the majority are bad. However the indie scene is pushing out far more groundbreaking and innovative stuff than the triple AAA scene which just polishes and focus tests near everything to a shiny sheen of boring.

I do think far too many indie games are leaning too heavily on past retro games and nostalgia thus producing games well below the standards of the games they ape but every now and again you get something that gets it right such as Shovel Knight.

richymcdermott

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Firstly, I have to say it borders on ludicrous to try and generalise or pigeonhole 'indies'. All it refers to is games produced independently. Ranging from Elite:Dangerous to Desert Golfing, 'indie' is not a one size fit all description.

Secondly, there are tonnes of independent developers innovating - if you haven't found them, then honestly you haven't tried enough games. Papers, Please. Gone Home. Jazzpunk. Device 6. The Sailor's Dream. Stanley Parable. To The Moon. Passage. Defcon. The Vanishing of Ethan Carter. Games that genuinely push the boundaries of what games are capable of.

Are some independent developers over-reliant on retro stylings? Arguably. But also remember that retro graphics can be a cost effective solution, incredibly visually articulate and even a valuable marketing tool (which small games often need). It's also IMO reductive to dismiss all the games you mentioned above as clones or simplistic, shallow attempts to recapture past glories. The likes of Binding of Isaac actually deviate from their inspirations in radical ways, and become very unique entities in the process.

I do not know nearly all the games you mentioned as I assume they are pc titles. papers please by all accounts and I am going to be straight forward I am not going to pay money to stamp peoples passports , I know it be interesting for about 10 mins but I know i never go back to it again. to the moon I tried 3 times playing and could not be bothered each time forcing myself to go in the light tower.

stanley parable was interesting but shared the same common problem I had with portal 2 , the games humour was awful.

keep in mind I am using the word indie uselessly as you said its any one take or form but I still stand by what I said about them attempts to recapture there childhood games as I see no reason think otherwise.

Thatgamecompany with the games they have made have seem to be the only team that had a clear idea and ambition and truly innovated the way I see games personally in a new way. Dark souls showed me new ways how online can be used that I thought could never be possibly, Journey showed me just how much of a connection I could have with a player I don't know and don't speak to.

You have your opinions as does everyone else but until I see otherwise I wont be changing my views on such matters.

kunst nugget

I know I did a bit of cribbing about some of the indies being given away with PS Plus but I'll be honest since I loaded them on the Vita I've been having a blast with some of them - some of them suck donkey balls too but c'est la vie.

Tbf, indie is a pretty broad church but it sounds like you're completely unwilling to change your stance on these games and tar them all with the one brush. It's kind of like someone eating Garlic Bread and then saying they hate all Italian Food. If you don't like them that's fair enough but I don't really see why you seem to feel the need to moan about it so much. It's not like it's a zero sum equation - more indie games being made doesn't mean fewer AAA games being made.

Also, I'd have a very hard time trusting the opinion of someone that dislikes Portal 2.

richymcdermott

kunst nugget wrote: »

I know I did a bit of cribbing about some of the indies being given away with PS Plus but I'll be honest since I loaded them on the Vita I've been having a blast with some of them - some of them suck donkey balls too but c'est la vie.

Tbf, indie is a pretty broad church but it sounds like you're completely unwilling to change your stance on these games and tar them all with the one brush. It's kind of like someone eating Garlic Bread and then saying they hate all Italian Food. If you don't like them that's fair enough but I don't really see why you seem to feel the need to moan about it so much. It's not like it's a zero sum equation - more indie games being made doesn't mean fewer AAA games being made.

Also, I'd have a very hard time trusting the opinion of someone that dislikes Portal 2.

I treat all games the same , I give all games a chance and I bought my fair share of indie titles , its not just for the sake of it being indie I just hate them. 130 games on steam a majority are indies

http://steamcommunity.com/id/ArcadeHeroes

267 playstation games on all ps platforms you can check here

http://psnprofiles.com/BoH3MiaNRhAPSdY

I am not ignorant in thinking the way I am , and regards to portal 2 I loved the first game , I did not appreciate the sequel with its long corridors and awful jokes , but that is just me , I am glad you loved it

gizmo

I'm curious Richy, the games you've listed in your opening post as ones which you found to be "very poor" have nearly all received universal acclaim from both critics and gamers alike. How do you resolve this with your opinion that the attention these and other indie games are getting is somewhat problematic?

On a more general note, more people who love video games are making video games without being told what to make by people who don't love video games.

I don't see this as a problem personally.

richymcdermott

gizmo wrote: »

I'm curious Richy, the games you've listed in your opening post as ones which you found to be "very poor" have nearly all received universal acclaim from both critics and gamers alike. How do you resolve this with your opinion that the attention these and other indie games are getting is somewhat problematic?

On a more general note, more people who love video games are making video games without being told what to make by people who don't love video games.

I don't see this as a problem personally.

I just do not see the hype from it tbh, its not unique to small devs to see different things , you see it from some of the big publishers aswell. the bigger publishers devs that have been around the longest have created games that I loved for instance crystal dynamics lara croft and the guardian of light and I cannot wait for a sequel. or sony japan game tokyo jungle i equally enjoyed immensely and played it for months.

so I do not get it , personally why as you said alot of the games I mentioned have won awards and achieved universal praise but I cant get into them.

while a game like hotline miami or braid may come out and thought they were simply sublime I find alot of them that achieve equally or more praise that titles I enjoyed I find dull and lackluster , and when I mean I try to get into them I mean it.

kunst nugget

richymcdermott wrote: »

so I do not get it , personally why as you said alot of the games I mentioned have won awards and achieved universal praise but I cant get into them.

while a game like hotline miami or braid may come out and thought they were simply sublime I find alot of them that achieve equally or more praise that titles I enjoyed I find dull and lackluster , and when I mean I try to get into them I mean it.

Maybe some of these games are not your thing and that's alright. I think Spelunky is crap. I bought it and I put in hours trying to get it to click with me as it obviously had with so many other people. Didn't get anything out of it. Annoyed the piss out of me if I'm honest. Obviously it just wasn't the game for me. I can't say I ever felt I was having the wool pulled over my eyes by the developers because I failed to be able to appreciate it.

richymcdermott

kunst nugget wrote: »

Maybe some of these games are not your thing and that's alright. I think Spelunky is crap. I bought it and I put in hours trying to get it to click with me as it obviously had with so many other people. Didn't get anything out of it. Annoyed the piss out of me if I'm honest. Obviously it just wasn't the game for me. I can't say I ever felt I was having the wool pulled over my eyes by the developers because I failed to be able to appreciate it.

its defiantly the case and it really is a shame , even the amount of love no mans sky has got till recently I am scratching my head going , I do not see the big deal while also thinking its going to be to ambitious people are going to be let down , but I will give it a chance.

Generic Dreadhead

Everything that's not Journey is just $hit anyway

COYVB

Richie, with all due respect, I think you've fallen into the same trap as a lot of people in thinking that "indie" is a genre or a style. It's not. There is absolutely no way that anyone could honestly make the blanket statement that they don't like indies without not liking games in general, such is the variety found with indie games.

There's absolutely no relation between, say, The Vanishing of Ethan Carter and Don't Starve for example, or Bastion and Amnesia: The Dark Descent. There's nothing there to connect those games apart from the fact that they were developed by independent studios.

DarkJager

I'm in total agreement with you OP, I just don't understand the whole love affair people seem to have with these kind of games. Maybe it's just cool to hate on AAA titles these days and champion these poor excuses for entertainment as being something new and exciting.

When games like Spelunky or The binding of Isaac can get straight faced 9/10 scores something is very wrong. These games are not enjoyable at all on a base level. People will come here and say they "have amazing depth" but they don't. They are horribly bland, and utterly devoid of any enjoyment. I often wonder have the people who praise these games forgotten what genuinely good gameplay feels like. When I play a game I want to be entertained and immersed in it. I want a decent story, interesting mechanics and the all around package. Indies cannot offer any of these.

johnny_ultimate

richymcdermott wrote: »

I do not know nearly all the games you mentioned as I assume they are pc titles. papers please by all accounts and I am going to be straight forward I am not going to pay money to stamp peoples passports , I know it be interesting for about 10 mins but I know i never go back to it again.

Can you do me a favour Richie, because what's better than doing a favour for a random stranger on the internet :pac:? Can you put aside your prejudice and play Papers, Please? Sure you should have a copy if you got one of the recent Humble Bundles

Papers, Please IMO is a definitive example of how limiting your initial argument is. Trust me (and everybody else who has fallen for the game) on this: 10 minutes will not allow you to comprehensively understand what makes the game so appealing and innovative. It's a game that complicates the gameplay and mechanics in fascinating ways as it goes along, but in doing so also complicates and expands on the narrative and themes. It asks you to do things you have never done before as a player. It's a game that creates an emotional attachment to the situation and world in a totally unique way. Conveniently, it is also a pitch-perfect example of pixel art used for good - the art is full of character (good old Jorji), yet also plays with the game's themes of uniformity and dehumanisation in a very evocative way. All this, and believe it or not the passport stamping mechanics are delightfully tactile and addictive. It is, as far as I'm concerned, as innovative, imaginative, and provocative as gaming gets

Give it a go with an open mind. It truly is something extraordinary.

DarkJager wrote: »

When games like Spelunky or The binding of Isaac can get straight faced 9/10 scores something is very wrong. These games are not enjoyable at all on a base level. People will come here and say they "have amazing depth" but they don't. They are horribly bland, and utterly devoid of any enjoyment. I often wonder have the people who praise these games forgotten what genuinely good gameplay feels like. When I play a game I want to be entertained and immersed in it. I want a decent story, interesting mechanics and the all around package. Indies cannot offer any of these.

Listen: I have no problem with people not enjoying Spelunky. It's a demanding title, and hell we all have acclaimed or well liked games that we don't like or will never warm to.

But this argument that has sprung up since Spelunky's PS Plus inclusion that it is some shallow clone of retro platformers baffles me. I truly cannot marry it with the game I have played - although, to be brutally honest, I am under no illusions I will ever get to experience some of the game's deepest secrets firsthand since I've just about managed to get past world two. The game does have amazing depths - I'd consider that damn close to a fact. It's why people, years after release, are still discovering secrets and achieving feats within it that were once deemed impossible by even its creator.

Here, for example, is a fantastic analysis of a record breaking run achieved in the game last year: http://www.polygon.com/2013/12/23/5227726/anatomy-of-a-spelunky-miracle-or-how-the-internet-finally-beat I don't know how a game that allows for that level of drama, emergent gameplay, complex interaction of mechanics and both dynamic unpredictably and obsessively detailed order can be considered devoid of depth.

You do not have to like Spelunky - I know many have given it a chance and failed to warm to it, and it's hard to argue with a subjective opinion that it is 'bland'. You can disagree with anything I've posted. But at least be fair and acknowledge that the praise it has received isn't based on some mass delusion, but the fact that a tonne of players and reviewers have spent time with the game and come to the conclusion based on their experience with the game. You don't need to conform with that consensus, but at least be reasonable enough to respectfully disagree

Reekwind

richymcdermott wrote: »

You have your opinions as does everyone else but until I see otherwise I wont be changing my views on such matters.

Then, with respect, I'm not entirely sure why you chose to start a thread on the issue. The comments from yourself and DarkJager can be summed up as 'I don't like X and everyone who does (ie everyone else) is just wrong'. Which - leaving aside Harlan Ellison's quip on uniformed opinions - is fine, tastes differ. But it doesn't provide any basis for a discussion or debate. What exactly can you say to someone who writes off whole swathes of games and treats such judgement as objective reality?

richymcdermott

Reekwind wrote: »

Then, with respect, I'm not entirely sure why you chose to start a thread on the issue. The comments from yourself and DarkJager can be summed up as 'I don't like X and everyone who does (ie everyone else) is just wrong'. Which - leaving aside Harlan Ellison's quip on uniformed opinions - is fine, tastes differ. But it doesn't provide any basis for a discussion or debate. What exactly can you say to someone who writes off whole swathes of games and treats such judgement as objective reality?

Dont take one aspect of my comment and sum it all up from there, read and see my other comments as I said I have played and supported more than enough small indie title games that achieved universal acclaim and did not like them , not all of them were bad as I said thatgamecompany journey and flower are two of the my most cherished experiences . Braid , hotline miami , binding of issac , stanley parable ( interesting but weird ) spleunky (etc..) these are titles I enjoyed , more so than others and what actual benefit would I gain to think all indie games were **** ? The title of the thread does not say crap, terrible, boring or awful it says my problem , meaning its a personal issue I have.

Its a difference of an opinion and personal taste if you love them fantastic.
Of course not all AAA games are great either but as I said to gizmo indies are not unique to creating fantastic small games as crystal dynamic best lara croft game was guardian of light and sony santa monico and scej creates tons of great games that I love.

I said I feel most indie games either follow tribute or borrow heavily from titles such as super metroid , not stating fact but a opinion . I cant state anything as fact without evidence , I cant go mona lisa was depressed because shes barely smiling , I would not know I was not there when the portrait was painted so how the hell I would know ? I see something you and others wont but thats okay .

richymcdermott

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Can you do me a favour Richie, because what's better than doing a favour for a random stranger on the internet :pac:? Can you put aside your prejudice and play Papers, Please? Sure you should have a copy if you got one of the recent Humble Bundles

Papers, Please IMO is a definitive example of how limiting your initial argument is. Trust me (and everybody else who has fallen for the game) on this: 10 minutes will not allow you to comprehensively understand what makes the game so appealing and innovative. It's a game that complicates the gameplay and mechanics in fascinating ways as it goes along, but in doing so also complicates and expands on the narrative and themes. It asks you to do things you have never done before as a player. It's a game that creates an emotional attachment to the situation and world in a totally unique way. Conveniently, it is also a pitch-perfect example of pixel art used for good - the art is full of character (good old Jorji), yet also plays with the game's themes of uniformity and dehumanisation in a very evocative way. All this, and believe it or not the passport stamping mechanics are delightfully tactile and addictive. It is, as far as I'm concerned, as innovative, imaginative, and provocative as gaming gets

Give it a go with an open mind. It truly is something extraordinary.

I suppose if I can give a game like noby noby boy 10 hours of my life and enjoy myself I can give papers please at least a chance.

COYVB

DarkJager wrote: »

I want a decent story, interesting mechanics and the all around package. Indies cannot offer any of these.

Just like Richie, you don't seem to understand what indie means. All it means is that the game was created by an independent studio. Indie games can have everything triple games can have, including massive budgets and top of the range graphics

ShadowHearth

You need to stop looking at indy games as indy and start looking at them as games. Just because you put an "indy " label, does not mean it's good.
At the same time majority of indy games helped industry to get back on its feet as high budget games became way too safe and ****.
I bought 2 days ago I got Rogue legacy on ps4 and that's first game I played non stop for 6hours on ps4 and I got the damn thing since launch.

As in any industry there are good products and bad products. Gaming and indy in particular is same. You just need to learn go around **** stuff and point out gems.

richymcdermott

Either people are ignoring my comments and only focusing on certain sentences or am I just wasting my time explaining the same thing time and time again , I try one more time

First off I understand perfectly what indie means , as I said on page1 to johnny I am using the term indie loosely to a simple label the industry has given the smaller budget downloadable games I use the word indie games as does every site, forum user from reddit to eurogamer.


Secondly and this is my third time saying this and my last I am not naive to think all smaller budget games are bad , I simply said I cannot get into most of them. Thats it but its the same **** with certain aaa games.


I like to redirect this thread to a different direction , I would kindly appreciate people go to page 1 look at the 2 links i posted that shows all my games i purchased , now I would glady like people to list games I have not played for me to try out

Johnny already recommended me papers please and I have been meaning to get rogue legacy since I love me rogue like games.

Any others ? I glady appreciate it

tailgunner

You're using the term "indie" for "smaller budget games", right? And that most of these games are shockingly bad, but they're not all bad. Surely that applies to all games though? Even all entertainment media? Like, I've seen more terrible indie movies than great ones, but I don't think "indie movie" has anywhere near the same negative connotations.

I guess I don't really understand your argument. In my opinion, regardless of genre, most games are pretty bad, but some are really good, and it's worth playing those ones.

In terms of recommendations, Papers, Please deserves yet another mention, also Gone Home and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons.

kunst nugget

richymcdermott wrote: »

Either people are ignoring my comments and only focusing on certain sentences or am I just wasting my time explaining the same thing time and time again , I try one more time

First off I understand perfectly what indie means , as I said on page1 to johnny I am using the term indie loosely to a simple label the industry has given the smaller budget downloadable games I use the word indie games as does every site, forum user from reddit to eurogamer.


Secondly and this is my third time saying this and my last I am not naive to think all smaller budget games are bad , I simply said I cannot get into most of them. Thats it but its the same **** with certain aaa games.


I like to redirect this thread to a different direction , I would kindly appreciate people go to page 1 look at the 2 links i posted that shows all my games i purchased , now I would glady like people to list games I have not played for me to try out

Johnny already recommended me papers please and I have been meaning to get rogue legacy since I love me rogue like games.

Any others ? I glady appreciate it

Tbf, Richey, people are getting confused as to what actually was your problem with indies. You give out about indies as a whole but you seem to recognise that they are not a homogenous group and enjoy some of them yourself. You could have easily have said 'I hate videogames. Most of them are rubbish. I know they are not the same and here are some I liked. Anyone got any recommendations?'

For me, most indie games playing I do is on the Vita, which is perfect for picking up and chipping away for a couple of minutes here and there. There's indie games I've really enjoyed but I can appreciate that they mightn't appeal to others across the board. But then, indie games are usually going to have a more singular vision and not looking for mass commercial appeal like AAA game studios have to.

Off the top of my head, games I've enjoyed are Brothers (as mentioned above), Escape Plan, Limbo, Lone Survivior, Thomas was Alone, Stealth: A Clone in the Dark, Velocity 2x and Hotline Miami amongst others.

corcaigh07

But you also like Indies Richy, you said it with Journey and Flower. Why not just pick out the interesting ones that do something different to the 16bit and current eras?

I haven't got around to Papers Please (not a PC gamer really) but now and again, an indie game will just bowl you over. I can honestly say Brothers: A tale of 2 sons is the best and most affecting game I've played this year.

If that can happen for me and you loved Journey so much, it's not so bad, is it?

Maybe just pick more carefully from now on?

johnny_ultimate

richymcdermott wrote: »

I said I feel most indie games either follow tribute or borrow heavily from titles such as super metroid , not stating fact but a opinion . I cant state anything as fact without evidence , I cant go mona lisa was depressed because shes barely smiling , I would not know I was not there when the portrait was painted so how the hell I would know ? I see something you and others wont but thats okay .

I'd say that's blurring the line between fact and opinion. It is a fact that a lot of independently produced games are influenced - somewhat or a lot - by retro games. That's a fair, objective observation. When we get down to whether that's a good or a bad thing in individual cases is where the opinion part comes in, and where sweeping generalisations struggle to keep up. It's not too much of a stretch to say it would be nice if more developers didn't take such explicit inspiration from the past and experimented with newer forms of expression, but again that doesn't really IMO capture the complex reality as there are plenty of games already doing so and retro inspiration can be a positive thing. After all, pretty much all great games build on foundations laid down elsewhere, barring the occasional truly revolutionary effort.

To return to some of your initially cited examples:

• Guacamelee undoubtedly follows a Metroidvania formula, none of us can reasonably dispute that. And yet it's also very much its own beast. The art and aesthetics are entirely its own. The combat system is radically different to Metroid or Castlevania - really tightly honed to the game's 'Mexican wrestling' fondness. The exploration and gameplay has a load of flourishes - such as its implementation of a 'spirit realm', or the platforming opportunities afforded by its power-ups - that again make it feel fresh and different.
• Shovel Knight - again, the developers make no efforts at hiding their fondness of gaming's past. And yet it feels like a thoroughly modern game in terms of speed and accessibility (not always a bad word). Its key mechanics are unique and are explored in very clever ways. Its graphics are bold and vibrant, and not restrictively betrothed to old technology (unlike say Mega Man 9 and 10, which absolutely and apologetically are stuck in the past for better and worse). It's a game that is happy to take on board some of the more positive developments in game design and technology as well as its nostalgic streak. See also Super Meat Boy.
• Steamworld Dig's inspirations aren't hard to spot, but then it combines a lot of different ideas and genres to again emerge as something distinct. A good case for how mixing familiar elements can itself be a form of innovation.

None of these games are trying to 'replace' the classics. No doubt the developers love the originals as much as you do. But then I think it's unfair to call them mere clones or lacking in character of their own. That's doubly true of games like Gunpoint, Monaco, Nidhogg, Towerfall Ascension, Sword and Sorcery EP, Where is My Heart, Thomas was Alone, Proteus etc... - where retro visuals mask gameplay that is anything but retro (all, incidentally, worth a go).

And one simple fact to remember - you're older That 'indescribable magic' that a lot of us associate with older games is something we become immune to when we're older, more cynical and critical. Obviously a lot of true classics boast impeccable design, but so do a lot of modern games, and frankly we're all a bit older and wiser so not prone to the same level of excited engagement with each and every new game. Nothing beats the odd game that does do that though!

Anyway, glad to hear you're willing to give Papers Please a go, be sure to report back. If you're looking for other recommendations, I'd recommend these as there is no risk of mistaking them for mere retro revivals:
Gone Home
Jazzpunk
Dust (which you should have already from PS+ - frankly, the fact one man made it actually shows up the visual efforts of a whole lot of independently produced titles!)
Frozen Synapse
Kentucky Route Zero
The Banner Saga
Year Walk (mobile and PC)
Hohokum (blurs the 'indie' definition a bit given Sony Santa Monica's involvement, but as a small art game I think its inclusion is warranted)

richymcdermott

I do not mind pixel art in fact I love it and have no problem with devs using it but gameplay has to back it up . I am looking at you mercenary kings , maybe I am viewing it in a different light thats orginally as tended it to be amd I do appreciate games for trying something even if the said game does not click with me.

I just see sometimes pixel art being used to lore people in when you hear the megadrive music or nes , snes it just seems to trigger the nostalgia button in my heart , but often when I play it I am like well fcuk

A game like hotline miami had the gameplay to back it up .

But being influenced is never a bad thing , brothers a tale of two sons is very ico in spirit to me and while it has a very slow start it has very powerful moments and landscapes but piss poor controls at times trying to control two brothers with the analog sticks. But it was quite an experience.

Thanks to everyone for your game reccomendations , vanishing of ethan carter came up alot and gone home . I look out for these aswell as papers please and be sure to give my thoughts.

Generic Dreadhead

+1 for Dust: An Elysian Tale.

An enjoyable 8 hour game with a story that is actually pretty grabbing emotionally and pretty epic in scope (there was/is meant to be a TV in development)
The fact that is made by 1 guy makes it all the more interesting.
I actually found the characters believable and enjoyed their quippy humour.
Plus..... the ending

*sheds a solitary tear*

But maybe you'll just find it to be a shoddy DMC style 2D hack and Slash with some RPG elements and think Figit is a *****

Sunrise, Sunset

Unless you get The Stanley Parable for free, stay away, while I know Johnny et-al will rise to us it as an example of blurring lines, making commentary on games as a whole and the whole understanding of linear gameplay etc...... It is not worth the money at anything more that €1.99..... you will get about 40 minutes out of it, maybe more if looking at a flow chart and some youtube videos isn't for you....

Put simply, there's an ending where you need to press a button constantly for 4 hours.... and to me, that sounds like EVERY thing you dislike about "indie" games.

Also do you consider "The Beamoth" to be an Indie studio, the release 2 man games but had a commercial release on Gamecube....
Any way, Battle Block Theater is one the best Platformers, indie or not, I've ever played and I LOVED the humour of it.
I had more fun playing that in local multiplayer with a mate and a few beers than i ever had getting my 4th prestige in BLOPS2

richymcdermott

I was more impressed with dust an elysian tale being made by one dude that the actual game itself.

It was grand , somehow felt I was playing a game for furries people from deviant art at times but I think it was cool

Generic Dreadhead

richymcdermott wrote: »

I was more impressed with dust an elysian tale being made by one dude that the actual game itself.

It was grand , somehow felt I was playing a game for furries people from deviant art at times but I think it was cool

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

100x Yes

Same here, tbh the gameplay wore thin after about 2 hours but I played on for the story.

Big Knox

DarkJager wrote: »

I'm in total agreement with you OP, I just don't understand the whole love affair people seem to have with these kind of games. Maybe it's just cool to hate on AAA titles these days and champion these poor excuses for entertainment as being something new and exciting.

When games like Spelunky or The binding of Isaac can get straight faced 9/10 scores something is very wrong. These games are not enjoyable at all on a base level. People will come here and say they "have amazing depth" but they don't. They are horribly bland, and utterly devoid of any enjoyment. I often wonder have the people who praise these games forgotten what genuinely good gameplay feels like. When I play a game I want to be entertained and immersed in it. I want a decent story, interesting mechanics and the all around package. Indies cannot offer any of these.

There's so much wrong with this post it's hard to find a starting point. I genuinely feel sorry for people who have this opinion but thankfully you're in a very very small minority. I just can't understand in any way how you can deem a massive percentage of games bad simply because they have been published by an independent developer or because they don't have millions behind it so it is labelled as "AAA".

And I'm sorry but there's a reason why The Binding of Issac: Rebirth has a userscore of 9.0 on metacritic and 95% of steam reviews are positive and it's because it is a fantastic game. Give me Papers Please, Amnesia, Path of Exile, Journey, Limbo, Stanley Parable, Gone Home etc. anyday over the never ending stream of Call of Duty and Assassins Creeds we get year after year!

Mr E

How I feel about this thread:



Independent games are the best thing about gaming at the moment.

drumswan

Cormac... wrote: »

Same here, tbh the gameplay wore thin after about 2 hours but I played on for the story.

Depends what you want from games really. I enjoyed games like this and on the Amiga but now I have machines capable of playing Total War, Civilization V, Battlefield, Crusader Kings, Forza, Planetside 2, The Last of Us, Eve, The Sims, Fallout 3, WoW, Skyrim, Diablo, GTA V etc., I dont see the draw in modernised versions of platformers.

Same as that Papers, Please - probably would have been all over it in 1991 and I can see the attraction for people who are into games history, trivia as their primary hobby etc (and can appreciate slick 'passport stamping mechanics', heh) but frankly cant see myself giving up the limited time I have for the aforementioned games to ever play it. Same as I wouldnt be interested in playing Candy Crush Saga on a tablet or whatever, im sure fans of it have compelling arguments why I should be playing it too, but it simply doesnt appeal.

Generic Dreadhead

drumswan wrote: »

Depends what you want from games really. I enjoyed games like this and on the Amiga but now I have machines capable of playing Total War, Civilization V, Battlefield, Crusader Kings, Forza, Planetside 2, The Last of Us, Eve, The Sims, Fallout 3, WoW, Skyrim, Diablo, GTA V etc., I dont see the draw in modernised versions of platformers.

Same as that Papers, Please - probably would have been all over it in 1991 and I can see the attraction for people who are into games history, trivia as their primary hobby etc (and can appreciate slick 'passport stamping mechanics', heh) but frankly cant see myself giving up the limited time I have for the aforementioned games to ever play it. Same as I wouldnt be interested in playing Candy Crush Saga on a tablet or whatever, im sure fans of it have compelling arguments why I should be playing it too, but it simply doesnt appeal.

That read to me as AAA Graphics and true 3D or GTFO.
I'm not as big a fan of the more conceptual indie stuff though i appreciate what it is doing.
But Platformers? Well you're missing out on some critically acclaimed stiff like Super Mario Bros Wii U, Battleblock Theater, Rayman legends or origins.
Also platformers are much more console controller friendly than KB/M

Also most of the games you've listed are real 40+ hour titles.
I'm finding one of the benefits of indie games these days is they can have pretty immersive worlds that you can experience and finish within 10 hours

drumswan

Cormac... wrote: »

That read to me as AAA Graphics and true 3D or GTFO.
I'm not as big a fan of the more conceptual indie stuff though i appreciate what it is doing.
But Platformers? Well you're missing out on some critically acclaimed stiff like Super Mario Bros Wii U, Battleblock Theater, Rayman legends or origins.
Also platformers are much more console controller friendly than KB/M

Also most of the games you've listed are real 40+ hour titles.
I'm finding one of the benefits of indie games these days is they can have pretty immersive worlds that you can experience and finish within 10 hours

Whats wrong with AAA graphics and 3D? Personally Im not interested in platform games, same as other people are not interested in strategy games or FPS games. Someone posting a video of a cartoon character carrying an eggplant up and down ladders for an hour as a reason why I should be playing indie games is gas.

We are approaching a stage of gaming with VR and MMO technology when the gamer can literally live inside another world - total immersion. In the face of that, Its funny that someone would see stylised versions of the classics of my childhood as the best thing that is happening in gaming. Interesting, cool, really attractive to the hardcore gaming nerd maybe, but not that interesting to others.

Potatoeman

I think many are over rated and over priced. The first thing I check now is play lenght and if they are randomised.

Most might be worth a look in the steam sale but the likes of the Stanley Parable or Brothers are way too short for 15 bucks. I enjoyed FTL but spending two hours and being screwed over by a few bad random events gets old.

Retr0gamer

drumswan wrote: »

We are approaching a stage of gaming with VR and MMO technology when the gamer can literally live inside another world - total immersion.

All that progres in tech would be fine if the games weren't suffering. A lot of triple A games are streamlined simplified and hollow in comparison to older games. Indie games are where you get most of the depth and innovation these days.

richymcdermott

Keep vr away from me

K.O.Kiki

If you don't like Cave Story, you don't like video games.

drumswan

Retr0gamer wrote: »

All that progres in tech would be fine if the games weren't suffering. A lot of triple A games are streamlined simplified and hollow in comparison to older games. Indie games are where you get most of the depth and innovation these days.

If you say so. Most indie games like like rehashes of retro stuff Ive seen before.

drumswan

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

If you don't like Cave Story, you don't like video games.

Its as likely that someone who is a fan of that isnt a fan of Football Manager or Euro Truck Simulator or FIFA or Anno 2070 or Railroad Tycoon or Masters Of Orion or Call Of Duty. What is it with 2D sidescrollers that people seem to think they are the epitome of pure gaming?

sweetie

drumswan wrote:

Its as likely that someone who is a fan of that isnt a fan of Football Manager or Euro Truck Simulator or FIFA or Anno 2070 or Railroad Tycoon or Masters Of Orion or Call Of Duty. What is it with 2D sidescrollers that people seem to think they are the epitome of pure gaming?

I guess its that most of us grew up on them?

johnny_ultimate

drumswan wrote: »

Same as that Papers, Please - probably would have been all over it in 1991 and I can see the attraction for people who are into games history, trivia as their primary hobby etc

Not sure how you came to this unusual conclusion. Can you expand on it? What is it about the game that makes it attractive for gaming trivia fans?

drumswan

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Not sure how you came to this unusual conclusion. Can you expand on it? What is it about the game that makes it attractive for gaming trivia fans?

Probably phrased that poorly. I can see the attraction to gaming purists, fans of retro, people who are interested in game design and mechanics, how they relate and compare to games of old, interested in the obscura of how they have developed over time and interested in discussing that kind of thing with like minded gamers on the internet. I guess that contributes to the 'depth' some people seem to see in these games, while to the outsider they look like fairly mundane platformers/shmups/puzzlers.

Grumpypants

This thread title should be changed to the thread of wild generalizations.

Like every section of the industry you can't pigeon hole it. Some indie devs are doing cool interesting things, others are shoveling out garbage wrapped up as "early access".

Some big publishers are happy to re wrap last years big title and sell it again, but others are certainly innovating in terms of gameplay and story as well as pushing the new technology, new game engines, new online services.

Writing off either end of the market just cuts yourself out of enjoying great games. I've had just as much fun in Papers Please, Kerbal or the long dark as I had in Far Cry 3, Black flag, Battlefield or Pro Evo.

Each are entertaining, engaging, and innovative in their own way.

Generic Dreadhead

drumswan wrote: »

Probably phrased that poorly. I can see the attraction to gaming purists, fans of retro, people who are interested in game design and mechanics, how they relate and compare to games of old, interested in the obscura of how they have developed over time and interested in discussing that kind of thing with like minded gamers on the internet. I guess that contributes to the 'depth' some people seem to see in these games, while to the outsider they look like fairly mundane platformers/shmups/puzzlers.

Ah c'mere now you're just being dismissive of everything that's not a Sim, Strategy title or FPS, and this is coming from someone who plays a lot of those 3 genres of games. It's different strokes for different folks.
Taking the Sims 3 or 4 as an example, it's akin to me saying "Why would you bother playing with a modern day tomogatchi?"
You're just being unnecessarily dismissive of entire genres that aren't to your taste.
I thought you were making a (misguided in my opinion) point about platformers in particular being a thing of nostalgia and a very stagnant genre.
Now i just think it's "I don't play platformers, so why does anyone anywhere play them or like them?"

Grumpypants wrote: »

This thread title should be changed to the thread of wild generalizations.

+1 :pac:

kunst nugget

Cormac... wrote: »

Taking the Sims 3 or 4 as an example, it's akin to me saying "Why would you bother playing with a modern day tomogatchi?"
You're just being unnecessarily dismissive of entire genres that aren't to your taste.

I'd rather get my ma's name tattooed on my penis than play Sims but I wouldn't think other people are fooling themselves into thinking they're enjoying if that's what you're into. Each to their own and all that.

drumswan

I guess people play games for different reasons.

Looking back at the games I used to play when I was a kid, I realise they werent the same as the sort of games that people are talking up here. I played games for a sense of immersion and escapism, that was my 'depth'. I wanted to feel like I was the Emperor of Byzantium (Civ) or a Jet Pilot (Ace II) or a Formula 1 driver (F1 GP) or a Football Manager (Football Manager) or head of the XCOM program (Enemy Unknown) or the Muad D'ib on Dune (Dune II) or a pirate space trader (Frontier) or a pro golfer (Leaderboard) or GOD! (Populous).

Playing Chuckie Egg or Maniac Mansion didnt attract me nearly as much as there was no immersion and no suspension of disbelief involved. It felt to me like it was playing the game for the games sake and that was it. I didnt want to climb ladders and jump on enemies no matter how much skill was involved. The few indies Ive played on PS4 feel like that too.

I bought Kerbal Space Program and got right into it because it felt like those games of old.

johnny_ultimate

drumswan wrote: »

Probably phrased that poorly. I can see the attraction to gaming purists, fans of retro, people who are interested in game design and mechanics, how they relate and compare to games of old, interested in the obscura of how they have developed over time and interested in discussing that kind of thing with like minded gamers on the internet. I guess that contributes to the 'depth' some people seem to see in these games, while to the outsider they look like fairly mundane platformers/shmups/puzzlers.

But Papers Please - and indeed many of the other games mentioned in this thread, so as not to dwell on just this one game - do not fit into those genres or game types. I don't even know if Papers Please could be put into any genre TBH! That's what's so great about it IMO - it's progressive and inventive and looks forward instead of back. It's why I wouldn't think it fair to lump it when 2D platformers or shooters. If it looks like it's just another retro homage, then I would recommend a closer look because that couldn't be further from reality