Heifer is in calf

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Hi guys need help.

Brother sold a heifer in the mart in August. Got a call back there from the new owner. She's pregnant. He seems lovely, and very reasonable. He didn't want to deal with me, said he'd talk to my brother later on.

Thing is, I rang my brother. My brother is an aggressive asshole. He said "**** him, it's his problem now." And won't take this any further.

We honestly didn't know she was in calf, they were my dads animals that my brother sold on. I have no idea how she was in calf, the boy in the field with her was fixed he couldn't have done it.

As usual, this is going to be my mess to clean up. I am going to call back later on and I've no idea what to say or what to offer.

Please help

Nettleman

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Hi guys need help.

Brother sold a heifer in the mart in August. Got a call back there from the new owner. She's pregnant. He seems lovely, and very reasonable. He didn't want to deal with me, said he'd talk to my brother later on.

Thing is, I rang my brother. My brother is an aggressive asshole. He said "**** him, it's his problem now." And won't take this any further.

We honestly didn't know she was in calf, they were my dads animals that my brother sold on. I have no idea how she was in calf, the boy in the field with her was fixed he couldn't have done it.

As usual, this is going to be my mess to clean up. I am going to call back later on and I've no idea what to say or what to offer.

Please help

If I was you, I would ring the mart, and see what they say. from tag, they will have date of sale, etc etc. If nothing specific was said at time of sale, (and mart may confirm this), its likely Cavaet Emptor applies. ~However, Ring the seller if he is agreeable, organise to get the animal scanned by vet/AI man (appointed by you and at your expense), who will give you estimate of days in calf, that will tell you if she was plugged before or after sale. Then take it from there,

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I don't doubt she was in calf, I just don't know how it happened is all. as far as I know all heifers are sold presumed not in calf.

newholland

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I don't doubt she was in calf, I just don't know how it happened is all. as far as I know all heifers are sold presumed not in calf.

If sold as heifer you will be liable to pay a fee per day to farmer for feeding her 1-2 euros and refund full sale fee.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

newholland wrote: »

If sold as heifer you will be liable to pay a fee per day to farmer for feeding her 1-2 euros and refund full sale fee.

Oh rats thanks for your help!

whelan2

Just watch out. Was a lad around here swapping tags and ringing up previous owners saying animal was in calf. Make sure it is your animal before you pay out. A lot to be said for estrumating or scanning heifers prior to sale

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I will know my little girl when I see her. I'm actually a little bit excited to get her back.

Kovu

Lexie if you're unsure about charges for feeding etc, ring the manager and ask him what the usual rate was for an animal being returned as proven incalf. If the manager is sound he should give a good assessment of the guy you're dealing with

Some lads out there will say she's been on a couple of euro of nuts a day, when in reality she's been outside eating rushes. You will have to pay transport fees/mart fees & her original price regardless.

But if she went through the heifer ring, all heifers are sold as maidens unless announced otherwise.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Kovu wrote: »

Lexie if you're unsure about charges for feeding etc, ring the manager and ask him what the usual rate was for an animal being returned as proven incalf. If the manager is sound he should give a good assessment of the guy you're dealing with

Some lads out there will say she's been on a couple of euro of nuts a day, when in reality she's been outside eating rushes. You will have to pay transport fees/mart fees & her original price regardless.

But if she went through the heifer ring, all heifers are sold as maidens unless announced otherwise.

It's just a disaster, my brother put her through the mart, my brother got the money and stiffed me on my share and now I'm the one left with the responsibility. I'm excited to see her again but I am unbelievably stressed out

Kovu

LexieOnRale wrote: »

It's just a disaster, my brother put her through the mart, my brother got the money and stiffed me on my share and now I'm the one left with the responsibility. I'm excited to see her again but I am unbelievably stressed out

Whose name is on the card? For future reference to ya, more than one account can be set up in a mart with the same herd no. I've sold my animals and my fathers on the same day and had two cheques out. Or you could get sellers cash on the day?

OnDtown

I would presume the heifer is pretty obviously in calf if the buyer has suspected her as such so I wouldn't waste the time & expense of scanning her as if she went in calf since August, she probably wouldn't look so obvious, IYKWIM!

Around these parts, the standard agreement is for the seller to pay the buyer 250-300 euro but the buyer has the option to retain or return the heifer. In some case (closed herds) it isn't possible for the buyer to return the animal.

OP, I wouldn't get too stressed about this, it's a common occurrence and unless the buyer is a complete p***k, once he see's that your trying to do right by him, he should be agreeable to your proposals.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

He wasn't a prick at all he was lovely about it but I feel terrible and don't know what to offer him, as my brother will just tell him hard luck even though that isn't fair

kingstown

Happened my brother in law last year, sold heifer in mart – certain sure no calf.
Mart rang him couple months later saying buyer said she turned up in calf…!
Anyway heifer was taken back to mart and she was valued in a pen (not ring) and brother in law ‘bought her back’ plus B&B charge.
Brother in law always had suspicions but held his council and low and behold she went nearly 5/6 weeks over before she calved.
Brother in law had already rang mart after she had gone 2 weeks over just to stake his point, she didn’t calf until nearly 5

Heifer went back to mart, revalued and original buyer had to honour his original purchase and buy her back again plus calf + B&B

Funny thing is the buyer is a neighbour of mine and he is a proper hard dealer! But it catches up with you along the line..!;)

Best thing to do is deal through the mart again - just in case..!

greysides

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Thing is, I rang my brother. My brother is an aggressive asshole. He said "**** him, it's his problem now." And won't take this any further.

We honestly didn't know she was in calf, they were my dads animals that my brother sold on. I have no idea how she was in calf, the boy in the field with her was fixed he couldn't have done it.

As usual, this is going to be my mess to clean up. I am going to call back later on and I've no idea what to say or what to offer.

Are you sure you should be taking on your brothers problems? He's not going to learn anything from it if you always shield him.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

greysides wrote: »

Are you sure you should be taking on your brothers problems? He's not going to learn anything from it if you always shield him.

My dad would be really disappointed ****ing someone over like that, buying an animal in good faith and then being stiffed. I can't see why we can't buy the animal back, sell the mom and baby together or even keep them. Do the decent thing, win win. But no, he'll have to be horrible and create bad feeling

Mac Taylor

OnDtown wrote: »

I would presume the heifer is pretty obviously in calf if the buyer has suspected her as such so I wouldn't waste the time & expense of scanning her as if she went in calf since August, she probably wouldn't look so obvious, IYKWIM!

Around these parts, the standard agreement is for the seller to pay the buyer 250-300 euro but the buyer has the option to retain or return the heifer. In some case (closed herds) it isn't possible for the buyer to return the animal.

OP, I wouldn't get too stressed about this, it's a common occurrence and unless the buyer is a complete p***k, once he see's that your trying to do right by him, he should be agreeable to your proposals.

There are chancers out there that will try to get you to pay for a heifer that went in calf in their place or just looking for soft money, like whelan said some were/ never in calf.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Can casteration fail? I'm so worried that he did the damage and now all the others will be pregnant too. I know for sure he was done, and there are no other males in our herd

greysides

Castration by burdizzo can fail. It's a known problem.

By the sounds of it, if the mart is involved by the buyer your brother may have his wings clipped.

_Brian

LexieOnRale wrote: »

My dad would be really disappointed ****ing someone over like that, buying an animal in good faith and then being stiffed. I can't see why we can't buy the animal back, sell the mom and baby together or even keep them. Do the decent thing, win win. But no, he'll have to be horrible and create bad feeling

In fairness you sound like a decent sort and I'm sure the buyer will realise this and hopefully a reasonable agreement can be reached..

Be your own man and don't feel too responsible for your brother's actions.. You do the right thing and you'll be able to meet lads with your head up and get the name of being a decent skin to deal with.

Good luck..

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

_Brian wrote: »

In fairness you sound like a decent sort and I'm sure the buyer will realise this and hopefully a reasonable agreement can be reached..

Be your own man and don't feel too responsible for your brother's actions.. You do the right thing and you'll be able to meet lads with your head up and get the name of being a decent skin to deal with.

Good luck..

I'm a girl! And told on a regular basis the farm is none of my business. Until something happens.

Willfarman

I have often bought heifers that showed up in calf. If she was deemed anyway near big enough to calve we would keep them, put them on hay only for last month or so and they usually worked out lucky. However if it was a small young heifer it would be landed back in mart and 2 euro a day + 40 euro for transport. Your brother has a terrible attitude. He sold his heifer as maiden. If in doubt about maiden lads shout it out. Sold as she stands.

rule supreme

The farmer might not want you to take her back ,just be honest with him when you ring .

cute geoge

Be honest ,you never become too rich but you can always hold your head high

dh1985

We got caught like this a few years back. Took the heifer back and paid a e1 a day for feeding to the farmer. He was a nice fella. Wasnt trying to put his arm in for compensation. Some I am sure are not as good to deal with. I believe that if the heifer was in calf the seller is obliged to compensate and tale back if necessary. As other people said make sure she is in calf as there is definitely a few cowboys out there looking to make an easy buck. How long ago did you sell her. From when we got caught we have always scanned and given estrumate to heifers. Belts and braces job as its cheaper than having this sort of hassle. Good luck hopefully he is a reasonable sort

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Update.

He called again, he's looking for 300 euro compensation, doesn't want us to take the heifer back and got quite ratty when I said we would have her scanned.
Rang my dads friend (he sells cattle as a living) and he told me 300 was excessive, and to ring the mart and chat the manager, which I did. She told me that because it was during the summer months, that I could offer him 1 euro to 1.50 per day. She said to round up, not down. Tomorrow, the heifer will be 110 days off our farm, and it's working out at about 165 euro.

My dads friend said to offer him that and if he doesn't accept then to take the heifer back and he will sell her on with the calf for us.

I'm suspicious now because of his reaction to her being scanned and his request for so much compensation.

Kovu

It does sound rather suspicious Lexie. Did you ask the manager if he was a reputable sort by any chance.
The manager sounds about right with that figure, unless she was getting concentrates along with it. However that'll be easily gauged by the sale weight compared to her weight now. Every mart is different but we used to (us in the office) arrange for the two people to meet on the day of a sale and talk it out. I wonder if he's trying to take the piss a bit because you sound a bit unsure of yourselves.

Perhaps you could get your dads friend to ring him as he knows what's up

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I gave her his name and she knew of him straight away but she didn't say if he was nice or not, she just said 300 was asking a lot, she said he should provide a vets certificate but I'd rather we had our own vet do it, impartial and all that. She was really helpful saying it could happen to anyone and not to feel bad about it because it's actually a regular occurrance and that 1.50 was more than reasonable considering he hadn't to store her during the winter months and she reckoned when he bought her he'd still have her out on grass.

My heads wrecked

orm0nd

Lexie.. before you agree to anything , go and see the heifer ,


just to edit this after reading your post below, bring some one with you, or maybe arrange for your vet to scan her

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Also, when he called me first I told him that my brother was over the farm, to contact him and text on my brothers number. Then I felt bad and said if he got nowhere with my brother to contact me and we would sort something.

This evening I asked him if he had contacted Sean, he said he'd called him a few times but there was no answer and no contact back. Now that I think about it, that doesn't make sense. Sean wouldn't have had his number and he NEVER misses a call/ignores a call. He always returns his calls so now I'm wondering if he just thinks I'm a soft touch because I was nearly in tears when he rang me the first day. I don't think he's tried contact Sean at all. If he had tried he would have got through or had his call returned

Kovu

I wouldn't say it, but he doesn't sound like I'd trust him as far as I could throw him!

As orm0nd said above, either bring someone to see her with you (a trusted vet if at all possible) or arrange to meet him with the heifer at the mart where she can be scanned or dipped. The mart manager could even specify which vet to use, they'll have one for testing & emergency cases.

I'm surprised the manager wouldn't help in this case as well! Did you ask her what usually happened in difficult cases like this?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I had no idea it was a difficult case though, and the manager was lovely she did help as much as she could. Like initally and if you read back the start of the thread I felt terrible, and he seemed quite nice. I knew my brother would tell him to **** off so that's when I text him saying look if you get nowhere with Sean, contact me and we will sort something.

Last week I had a word with dads deiwnd to get him to talk some sense into my brother. He said to find out his name and where he's from because my dads friend would know a lot of the farmers around and if he knew him he'd sort it for us.

Today I recieved the call, I answered, he gave me his name but didn't seem to want to tell me where he was from.
"And are you in *insert town that mart is in?"
- No
"... Where are uou from?"

He was quite abrupt and said he wanted 300 euro and that I could leave it into the mart on Thursday for him and he would collect it. I said that's ok, but we were just interested in having her scanned first and he's all like "why do you want to have her scanned, she was in calf when she was sold". I was a bit taken aback so I said well do you want us to take her back too? He said no, that the 300 euro would cover it. I said ok, I'll leave that into the mart and I will ring you when I have it in. Then I said did you speak to Sean (thinking he'd told him to **** off and maybe that's why he wasn't as nice as he was the first day) he said he'd tried contacting him but couldn't get in contact. I apologised and hung up. Completely relieved as I was sure it would have cost us more, (buying her back)

Then when I talked to my dads friend, and the mart lady, and thinking about Sean not returning a call (cause he's far too nosey for that) it didn't really add up

Kovu

Whatever you do don't leave in that money! Call him back and say that you will need proof that the animal is in calf and an estimate of the time she is gone. Argue your case, say that you won't hand over anything unless it's proven!

As far as you are concerned, there was no bull that got to her.
However, this means you will need to pay the cost of the scan & call out fee if she is scanned as gone incalf before she left your field

IMO this would be a lot cheaper than giving up and handing over that amount! Something just seems fishy to me and that's without talking to this man in question. Ring the manager tomorrow and tell her all this, she appears to know that the man is a bit dodgy......

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Thanks kovu.
I will have her scanned for sure, even if it does mean paying over the 300 (I would have left this in too, more fool me) as I would rather be sure than be made an eejit out of.

I will ring the manager back too and if there's any issue then I feel better that we will have help to sell her on with the calf. 7 heifers sold in August, no breakouts or no neighbours breakouts into ours with the 7 heifers. 1 bullock with them but he was fixed, and surely he'd have got more than just one of the 7 in trouble if he wasn't fixed properly.

Have to ring the lady with the scanner tomorrow, our vet doesn't have a scanner and recommended this lady.

Kovu

Do that and then at least you'll know for sure. It's just odd that one would turn up incalf out of seven.

And hey, at least you have a vet that will recommend someone that they trust!
Believe you me, I'd almost bet another €300 that if you left that money in, he'd suddenly become rather unavailable to talk to.....
If you want to ask anything further PM me & 'll see what I can do to help

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Thanks so much! Ye are all so helpful, I wouldn't have known what to do without all your posts.

dh1985

Theres no point getting upset about it. Its not that big of deal. Would definitely be scanning her to get a reasonable idea of when she was bulled before handing over any money. Theres no reason why he wouldnt allow this if your willing to pay for it and settle with him if she is proven in calf before he got her. Also it may be no harm to get a look at the heifer to see if he had been intensively feeding her. Then there may be some justification in his compensation request. But he may have starved her and be looking for a soft target. Theres an odd bad baxterd that does that.sort.of thing. Its.funny.if the mart manager knew him/who he was but wouldnt give a better idea if he was a straight sort of individual.

KatyMac

And I think in future you really need to let your brother take care of things himself, especially if you are being left with all the hassle and none of the money. Speaking as a female with 2 older (and useless) brothers, they are great at making deals and doing things 'til something goes wrong and then it's left to 'the sister' to sort out!

stanflt

I became the owner of a BBx heifer last week

My bull broke out earlier in the year to a neighbour who has no fencing but the way I look at it it's still my fault

Anyway I offered the man what she was worth so he's happy

Weighed her when she got home and she was 425kg
She'll calve at 18 months

whelan2

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I had no idea it was a difficult case though, and the manager was lovely she did help as much as she could. Like initally and if you read back the start of the thread I felt terrible, and he seemed quite nice. I knew my brother would tell him to **** off so that's when I text him saying look if you get nowhere with Sean, contact me and we will sort something.

Last week I had a word with dads deiwnd to get him to talk some sense into my brother. He said to find out his name and where he's from because my dads friend would know a lot of the farmers around and if he knew him he'd sort it for us.

Today I recieved the call, I answered, he gave me his name but didn't seem to want to tell me where he was from.
"And are you in *insert town that mart is in?"
- No
"... Where are uou from?"

He was quite abrupt and said he wanted 300 euro and that I could leave it into the mart on Thursday for him and he would collect it. I said that's ok, but we were just interested in having her scanned first and he's all like "why do you want to have her scanned, she was in calf when she was sold". I was a bit taken aback so I said well do you want us to take her back too? He said no, that the 300 euro would cover it. I said ok, I'll leave that into the mart and I will ring you when I have it in. Then I said did you speak to Sean (thinking he'd told him to **** off and maybe that's why he wasn't as nice as he was the first day) he said he'd tried contacting him but couldn't get in contact. I apologised and hung up. Completely relieved as I was sure it would have cost us more, (buying her back)

Then when I talked to my dads friend, and the mart lady, and thinking about Sean not returning a call (cause he's far too nosey for that) it didn't really add up

why does he not want you to scan her? Sounds very suspect tbh

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I don't know, I assumed from this thread that it wouldn't have been an unreasonable thing to do, that you know if you're compensating for something it's good to be sure what you're compensating for. He assumed I'd leave the 300 into the mart and that's it sorted

whelan2

300 euro handy few bob for Christmas

MayoAreMagic

From what I can see you are just getting to upset over this, and it is effecting how you are reacting to it. This guy claims the heifer is in calf, it isn't unreasonable for this to be proven. Also, tell him you were informed by the mart manager that his price was excessive and that you are willing to give him the going rate, which is 165, if everything is as he says. Say you are making arrangements to get the animal scanned. Put all this on record with the mart also. If he has a problem with any of it, then tell him you cant do any more and direct him back to your brother. Then ignore his calls and have a good Christmas. Your father mightn't have liked people getting done over, accidentally or not, but I am pretty sure he would be even less impressed with his daughter getting bullied into paying over the odds. Take control of this situation.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I called the vets in his town that does the scanning to be informed that what is standard that his vet should scan her and sign a certificate. I said I was worried that it wouldn't be impartial and that I'd prefer to get an independent vet but was told that the vet would be independent, that even though it's his vet he'd have to declare the truth, and that the onus is on him to prove she is in calf (and we reimburse him that cost if it was our fault).

Like I'm not doubting her being in calf (though I cant think how) but can't help but feel he's trying to make an eejit out of me.

tanko

A dairy farmer I know bought a friesian heifer in a mart a few years ago, when he was loading the animal for home a man came up to him and said I hope you didn't buy her cos she's a freemartin. He tried to throw her up, seller objected, said she was ok to breed.
The mart got a vet in to examine her who agreed with the seller. The buyer had to pay the vets fee and bring the heifer home. He got his own vet to examine her who said she was definitely a freemartin and would back him up. He never pursued it and just fattened her.
I wouldn't trust some vets and mart management as far as I'd throw them. If you are getting the animal scanned get someone your know and trust to do it. I wouldn't be getting too worked up about this, it goes on all the time. The country is full of lads chancing their arm with this kind of thing.

Deepsouthwest

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I called the vets in his town that does the scanning to be informed that what is standard that his vet should scan her and sign a certificate. I said I was worried that it wouldn't be impartial and that I'd prefer to get an independent vet but was told that the vet would be independent, that even though it's his vet he'd have to declare the truth, and that the onus is on him to prove she is in calf (and we reimburse him that cost if it was our fault).

Like I'm not doubting her being in calf (though I cant think how) but can't help but feel he's trying to make an eejit out of me.

Where is ur brother in all this? This is not ur problem. If ur brother is a dick, and this man who bought the animal is a dick, then just let them sort. Why are u getting involved?

onyerbikepat

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Where is ur brother in all this? This is not ur problem. If ur brother is a dick, and this man who bought the animal is a dick, then just let them sort. Why are u getting involved?

Exactly, it ain't your problem and you should treat it as such. Go and enjoy Chrsitmas and don't be worrying about it.

J.O. Farmer

dh1985 wrote: »

Theres no point getting upset about it. Its not that big of deal. Would definitely be scanning her to get a reasonable idea of when she was bulled before handing over any money. Theres no reason why he wouldnt allow this if your willing to pay for it and settle with him if she is proven in calf before he got her. Also it may be no harm to get a look at the heifer to see if he had been intensively feeding her. Then there may be some justification in his compensation request. But he may have starved her and be looking for a soft target. Theres an odd bad baxterd that does that.sort.of thing. Its.funny.if the mart manager knew him/who he was but wouldnt give a better idea if he was a straight sort of individual.

I'm not sure if the extra compensation would be justified even if he was pumping her full of meal if he's keeping her. Anyway how much meal would he have given over the summer and still have her and now and discover she's in calf. 110 days of intensive feeding and she should be ready to hang.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Right - now I don't know what to do at all.
Rang him up there this evening, building myself up for it the whole day. Told him I had spoken with mart manager, that I would offer him 1.50 per day, which was 165 as the heifer was there 110 days today.

I was all firm and polite and stated I would offer him 165 euro at 1.50 per day compensation and told him that the mart manager advised me to have a vets cert before handing over the money, and I said that if he could get that for me that I would have the 165 in the Mart for him whatever day suited him, and that I would reimburse him the cost of the cert if she was pregnant leaving our farm.

He kind of laughed when I said about 165, but didn't refuse it and did let me finish all I had to say. Then he told me he cannot get the vets cert as the animal has been slaughtered. He said he had to slaughter her as he did not want the hassle of her calving and that as he didn't know what she was crossed with, if she died during birth that we would be liable for the entire cost and he didn't want to bring that on us. I asked if he could even get something from the abitoir to say she was pregnant when she was killed, he said no they wouldn't be able to do that, I asked when she was killed and he said about 3 weeks ago shortly after contacting us.

This is an absolute mess. So no wonder he didn't want her scanned, he never told me yesterday she was dead and I feel sick that her and her baby were killed.

KatyMac

He was chancing his arm, bet he was hoping you'd roll over and pay him his €300 without question. Forget about it and enjoy Christmas and if he continues to annoy you tell him to talk to your brother.

whelan2

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Right - now I don't know what to do at all.
Rang him up there this evening, building myself up for it the whole day. Told him I had spoken with mart manager, that I would offer him 1.50 per day, which was 165 as the heifer was there 110 days today.

I was all firm and polite and stated I would offer him 165 euro at 1.50 per day compensation and told him that the mart manager advised me to have a vets cert before handing over the money, and I said that if he could get that for me that I would have the 165 in the Mart for him whatever day suited him, and that I would reimburse him the cost of the cert if she was pregnant leaving our farm.

He kind of laughed when I said about 165, but didn't refuse it and did let me finish all I had to say. Then he told me he cannot get the vets cert as the animal has been slaughtered. He said he had to slaughter her as he did not want the hassle of her calving and that as he didn't know what she was crossed with, if she died during birth that we would be liable for the entire cost and he didn't want to bring that on us. I asked if he could even get something from the abitoir to say she was pregnant when she was killed, he said no they wouldn't be able to do that, I asked when she was killed and he said about 3 weeks ago shortly after contacting us.

This is an absolute mess. So no wonder he didn't want her scanned, he never told me yesterday she was dead and I feel sick that her and her baby were killed.

you dont need this, just try and forget about him and move on. Just as well you didnt pay out anything

J.O. Farmer

Your in the clear. He's not entitled to a cent the protocol if he didn't want her calving is to have the previous owner take her back. If he's slaughtered her I'd say she was fit and being in calf won't have mattered.
Don't let him try to BS you about her calving soon either. A heifer will show signs of being in calf for a long time out. If he was that worried about a heifer calving he would have contacted you sooner.
If she even was in calf it would maybe have helped him in she wouldn't have come in heat every 3 weeks so no marching round the field.