€100 charge for a diagnostic scan that reveals nothing

Supergurrier

So as many of you know im trying to straighten out my current daily driver and decided a main dealer was the way to go to get to the root of the problem once and for all.

Was told scan could not determine what was causing fault and it wasnt software related yet I should come back for a software update and another diagnostic check after.

Now I know these machines have to pay for themselves but im left €100 down and I know asmuch as I knew going in which is feck all.

Am I right in feeling a little hard done by ?

goz83

Ouch. I wouldn't pay for a scan unless I asked for it to be carried out. It takes a couple of minutes and if nothing was revealed, then I think it is just bad business to charge a customer €100 for this.

Supergurrier

goz83 wrote: »

Ouch. I wouldn't pay for a scan unless I asked for it to be carried out. It takes a couple of minutes and if nothing was revealed, then I think it is just bad business to charge a customer €100 for this.

I specifically went in for the scan. Was more the lack of answers yet the full charge and suggestion of more scanning at a later date.

Wasn't even given a list of fault codes just a typed description.

greasepalm

well if you mentioned car and symptoms and year we might have a go for free,funny thing one scanner can say no faults and other can give you a shopping list.

percy212

Robbed. You can get a scanner v cheaply on ebay and run your own tests.

percy212

percy212 wrote: »

Robbed. You can get a scanner v cheaply on ebay and run your own tests.

The 10-15 euro things? They do very little compared to a professional set up

chrysagon

And then folk wonder why back street mechanics businesses are booming!

_Brian

Were you a regular customer?
My local indi will charge €80 for a scan unless your a regular customer regarding services.

keithclancy

Snotaul Goodman wrote: »

The 10-15 euro things? They do very little compared to a professional set up

Like what ?

Special Circumstances

keithclancy wrote: »

Like what ?

?? A cheapo elm327 based obd yoke is very restricted in what it can read, never mind write, compared to a pro setup.

Airbags, extra functions done by "comfort/body control modules" etc etc

ScottStorm

Special Circumstances wrote: »

?? A cheapo elm327 based obd yoke is very restricted in what it can read, never mind write, compared to a pro setup.

Airbags, extra functions done by "comfort/body control modules" etc etc

I use one and for the money they are good, works for basic faults to read and clear. I currently have an abs issue and no chance - local garage pulled the abs codes easily.

biko

An ebay scanner can do a few things which may be fine for the DIYer but garages use professional grade equipment.

100 euro is pretty steep alright. Around here a scan is usually 50, I suppose using a dealer will add expense as per usual.
OP, maybe elaborate on what made you want to go for a scan. Any lights on dash etc.
I hope the second scan will be free for you.

thats not gone well

That still on the S60 SG?

The main dealer charges for that are nothing short of a rip off.
Although you're paying for the mechanics expertise also, its still crazy money.

For what you paid for 1 scan, the dealer level software and special cable can be bought.
Granted, only the dealer can do certain things like code keys etc.

The generic ELM327 readers will only give general codes back.

For some reason although Volvos are OBD compliant, they're know for the difficulty in reading (early 2001-04 anyway).

There are one or two users here who have the required kit that could save you a few quid the next time, not that it helps at the moment.

obezyana

_Brian wrote: »

Were you a regular customer?
My local indi will charge €80 for a scan unless your a regular customer regarding services.

80 for a scan is still a rip off. The last diag i had done cost me 25euro from a well known well respected indie in Kilkenny.

keithclancy

obezyana wrote: »

80 for a scan is still a rip off. The last diag i had done cost me 25euro from a well known well respected indie in Kilkenny.

My thinking also, its not like the Diagnostic kit 'wears out' from usage.

I can understand a consumable like Airco gas.

But a machine that you have for years ? Even if it cost thousands its a rip off to charge 80-100 euros to plug it in and push a button.

bazz26

While €100 is very expensive for a diagnostic, it is not surprising from a main dealer. But I think some people may not be fully versed in how much proper diagnostic equipment costs to buy and maintain. I'm not talking about a €70 flea bay generic ball park code scanner here. The equipment itself is pretty expensive to buy, then you have the software which is licensed, also costs big money plus the regular software updates needed to incorporate the latest advancements. €50 or €60 would be the norm for a diagnostic from a good indy garage. You will always pay more from a main dealer.

bucketybuck

bazz26 wrote: »

But I think some people may not be fully versed in how much proper diagnostic equipment costs to buy and maintain.

Yep. Try five figures per year.

The bigger problem though is peoples expectations from that scan, they are useless unless you are prepared to pay for the mechanics expertise to do something about it.

Image connecting your diag machine and correctly identifying that a CAN BUS wire is broken somewhere. Well, good luck finding out exactly which wire it is!

Don't go into any serious garage penny pinching and asking for a scan, forget quick fixes and just ask them to find the bloody fault!

keithclancy

bucketybuck wrote: »

Image connecting your diag machine and correctly identifying that a CAN BUS wire is broken somewhere. Well, good luck finding out exactly which wire it is!

Me hole .... I've never heard of a Main Dealer fixing an electrical problem like that.

:pac::pac:

bucketybuck

keithclancy wrote: »

Me hole .... I've never heard of a Main Dealer fixing an electrical problem like that.

:pac::pac:

Are you being factitious?

Supergurrier

bucketybuck wrote: »

Yep. Try five figures per year.

The bigger problem though is peoples expectations from that scan, they are useless unless you are prepared to pay for the mechanics expertise to do something about it.

Image connecting your diag machine and correctly identifying that a CAN BUS wire is broken somewhere. Well, good luck finding out exactly which wire it is!

Don't go into any serious garage penny pinching and asking for a scan, forget quick fixes and just ask them to find the bloody fault!

The reason i left it in for the scan was to find the fault instead of just randomly replacing parts which funnily enough is what they are suggesting.

percy212

Did they give you a report on the scan findings. If not say you want one, because that is exactly what you paid for, then take your car and your report to another mechanic. Perhaps someone on here can recommend a good one in your area.

dr.fuzzenstein

Supergurrier wrote: »

The reason i left it in for the scan was to find the fault instead of just randomly replacing parts which funnily enough is what they are suggesting.

Absolutely, these garages portray the image of "Ooooh, look at me, I am a 9th grade black belt diagnostician and only my voodoo magic will reveal the code and then I will use my superior brain and knowledge to properly interpret the answer, which you mere mortal can never do and if ye encounter the dreaded airbag fault, you will need my black magic to fix the fault!"
When in reality some mechanic will plug it in, go "ahm, I think it's the airbag, that'll be €100 for diagnostics and €700 for an airbag, that didn't fix it? Another diagnostic and some more easter egging".
For the uninitiated, easter egging is the process of randomly replacing what vaguely could be the right parts in the hope that, by pure chance, the right part is being replaced.
I had an 02 Polo with an airbag fault, brought it to a mate, he got the codes, I looked them up and then did my research. And yes, it was a €50 gizmo from ebay.
Could have been airbag, could have been clock-spring. Measured both, fault found to be clock-spring, got a replacement from a scrappy, €40.
Had I gone to VW and said "Amaze and dazzle me with your mighty diagnostics machinery and eminent knowledge!", I would have paid the €100 plus whatever they charge for a brand new airbag, when all it needed was a new wire.

TL/DR:
The big garages will not spend hours diagnosing a fault and trace wires to find what is the problem.
They will simply charge you €100 to read some codes and then replace the engine.
If you have half a brain and an internet connection, you can sort out 99% of all errors. For the ones we can't, well if all else fails there's still the main dealer. But it is not the voodoo and witchcraft it is made out to be if you halfway know your way round a car.

Volvoair

Snotaul Goodman wrote: »

The 10-15 euro things? They do very little compared to a professional set up

no. the 80-100 price bracket.
if you spend 10-15 on one ,then you deserve the results.

Volvoair

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Absolutely, these garages portray the image of "Ooooh, look at me, I am a 9th grade black belt diagnostician and only my voodoo magic will reveal the code and then I will use my superior brain and knowledge to properly interpret the answer, which you mere mortal can never do and if ye encounter the dreaded airbag fault, you will need my black magic to fix the fault!"


wow...best paragraph on boards today...brilliant.
totally agree with you by the way.

bucketybuck

Supergurrier wrote: »

The reason i left it in for the scan was to find the fault instead of just randomly replacing parts which funnily enough is what they are suggesting.

Thats my point, scans are not some magic wand that will always tell you exactly what the problem is.

An example, connect to a diag and it reads a VECU fault. Is the fault with the VECU or with broken wiring to the VECU? One needs a €1000 ecu and the other needs the loom opened and wires repaired, same fault code though.

Supergurrier

bucketybuck wrote: »

Thats my point, scans are not some magic wand that will always tell you exactly what the problem is.

An example, connect to a diag and it reads a VECU fault. Is the fault with the VECU or with broken wiring to the VECU? One needs a €1000 ecu and the other needs the loom opened and wires repaired, same fault code though.

Reason i went to main dealers is they should have more experience with common faults than anyone else as tehre is no indy specialist in the part of the country.

I wasn't given any diagnostic codes either just descriptions of what it "might" be on an A4 sheet.

bucketybuck

Supergurrier wrote: »

Reason i went to main dealers is they should have more experience with common faults than anyone else as tehre is no indy specialist in the part of the country.

I wasn't given any diagnostic codes either just descriptions of what it "might" be on an A4 sheet.

And what did you let them do? Did you just ask for your scan and thats all you were prepared to pay for, or did you tell them to go ahead and diagnose the fault, even if it takes a few hours?

Even the most experienced master tech might take 4/5 hours opening up that hypothetical VECU wiring loom to find the broken wire. He can't plug a Diag or Texa in and immediately point to the wire, you simply need to just let him at it. But customers don't want to hear that.

I have no intention of defending poor service advisors, but the very concept of a diagnostic scan is one of the most misunderstood in the industry, its a tool, nothing more.

Supergurrier

bucketybuck wrote: »

And what did you let them do? Did you just ask for your scan and thats all you were prepared to pay for, or did you tell them to go ahead and diagnose the fault, even if it takes a few hours?

Even the most experienced master tech might take 4/5 hours opening up that hypothetical VECU wiring loom to find the broken wire. He can't plug a Diag or Texa in and immediately point to the wire, you simply need to just let him at it. But customers don't want to hear that.

I have no intention of defending poor service advisors, but the very concept of a diagnostic scan is one of the most misunderstood in the industry, its a tool, nothing more.

I descibed the problem and asked if they could diagnose it and get back to me with a course of action, and they did telling me they thought it could be once of 4-5 things but they werent sure.

bucketybuck

Supergurrier wrote: »

I descibed the problem and asked if they could diagnose it and get back to me with a course of action, and they did telling me they thought it could be once of 4-5 things but they werent sure.

And did you let them continue their diagnosis, or were you only prepared to pay the initial charge?

There are faults that cannot be confirmed in one hour, or by connecting a laptop. Its like hearing a rattle and paying a mechanic €10 to open the bonnet and look at the engine, but not being prepared to let him start unscrewing things. Then you are walking away complaining that you paid him €10 and are still no wiser.

Supergurrier

bucketybuck wrote: »

And did you let them continue their diagnosis, or were you only prepared to pay the initial charge?

There are faults that cannot be confirmed in one hour, or by connecting a laptop. Its like hearing a rattle and paying a mechanic €10 to open the bonnet and look at the engine, but not being prepared to let him start unscrewing things. Then you are walking away complaining that you paid him €10 and are still no wiser.

You seem to be convinced im a cheapskate.

Car was with them the whole day and i asked would it be worth leaving it in for futher investigation to which i was told they wouldnt be able to update it software or run further diagnostics for two weeks, not much i can do about that really.

The whole exercise was to narrow down what the underlying issues were.

percy212

The best next step is to ask the dealer for the report on the scan they did for you, and then go to a good indy, which hopefully someone here can recommend for you. A dealer is the most expensive option in all cases. Best of luck.

thierry14

Snotaul Goodman wrote: »

The 10-15 euro things? They do very little compared to a professional set up

What's a professional setup?

Any garage I have went to use off the shelf delphi software which isn't great.

I have the latest delphi software installed on my laptop and a decent VCI, find the software pretty basic, only real use I have for it is a force regen, it's hit and miss clearing codes.

I know of 3 local garages using the exact same delphi software I have installed.

I would be interested in hearing what pro's use.

Volvoair

Volvoair wrote: »

no. the 80-100 price bracket.
if you spend 10-15 on one ,then you deserve the results.

What about €8? I've a bluetooth thing that basically told me you just wasted €8 when I plugged it in :pac:

dieselbug

I think the best approach is to agree in advance a plan of action.

EG: Get a cost of what an hours diagnostic work will cost or two hours includeing equipment and agree on how far the garage can go. After this the garage may say they have made some progress but need maybe another hour etc This way everyone knows what to expect and there's no nasty surprises.
Also worth remembering the best tools are only as good as the tech who's operating them. Was this garage recommended?

I agree the garage should give you all the information they gathered including any codes and data collected, after all you paid for it so I would go back and ask for it.

If it's an an electricial problem it could take some time to trace. I quoted someone on here on another thread who said
"mechanical problems can take minutes to diagnose and hours to repair while electricial problems can take hours to diagnose and minutes to repair

"What's a professional setup?

" Any garage I have went to use off the shelf delphi software which isn't great.

I have the latest delphi software installed on my laptop and a decent VCI, find the software pretty basic, only real use I have for it is a force regen, it's hit and miss clearing codes."

The Delphi system is generally regarded as one of the better aftermarket tools, same software platform as Autocom, Opus and Wurth Wow. A bit weak on Jap ,Asian but improving. There is no one tool that will cover everything.

keithclancy

bucketybuck wrote: »

Are you being factitious?

With electrical problems your better off with an expert that knows what they are doing, main dealers in my experience are absolutely brutal at diagnosing these types of problems and will blame every sensor and mechanical issue up to and including engine replacement before they'll start tracing wires or diagnosing issues with individual modules.

Or if its showing fault codes, clearing codes is the fix for the problem after they've run out of things to do.

I can think of a few instances where people had long running recurring electrical problems and the dealers whole aim was to get them out of the service center because they didn't know how to fix the issue.

Even with the Nissan Leaf they have gone as far as flying people in from Japan to diagnose issues.

Source: One Renault and one Volvo mechanic working out of Benelux and another working in Germany,also another guy working for a major Leasing Company (Athlon - owned by Rabobank)

bucketybuck

keithclancy wrote: »

With electrical problems your better off with an expert that knows what they are doing, main dealers in my experience are absolutely brutal at diagnosing these types of problems and will blame every sensor and mechanical issue up to and including engine replacement before they'll start tracing wires or diagnosing issues with individual modules.

Or if its showing fault codes, clearing codes is the fix for the problem after they've run out of things to do.

I can think of a few instances where people had long running recurring electrical problems and the dealers whole aim was to get them out of the service center because they didn't know how to fix the issue.

Even with the Nissan Leaf they have gone as far as flying people in from Japan to diagnose issues.

Source: One Renault and one Volvo mechanic working out of Benelux and another working in Germany,also another guy working for a major Leasing Company (Athlon - owned by Rabobank)

Having worked in the industry for over 15 years for multiple manufacturers, all you are doing here is showing your ignorance. I have dealt with and supervised literally thousands of wiring repairs to different vehicles, the idea that main dealers cannot handle electrical repairs is simply laughable.

keithclancy

bucketybuck wrote: »

Having worked in the industry for over 15 years for multiple manufacturers, all you are doing here is showing your ignorance. I have dealt with and supervised literally thousands of wiring repairs to different vehicles, the idea that main dealers cannot handle electrical repairs is simply laughable.

I never said they can't fix them.

They'll check for known problems, beyond that, getting out a multimeter and knowing what to look for, never seen it.

Some bizarre problem caused by a faulty relay, or a bad connection, either won't be found or will cost severely huge amounts of money in labour.

In warranty they want to spend as little time as possible on a car and just get rid of the customer.

dr.fuzzenstein

Snotaul Goodman wrote: »

What about €8? I've a bluetooth thing that basically told me you just wasted €8 when I plugged it in :pac:

I think that is seriously good value on an important lesson!

bucketybuck

keithclancy wrote: »

I never said they can't fix them.

They'll check for known problems, beyond that, getting out a multimeter and knowing what to look for, never seen it.

Some bizarre problem caused by a faulty relay, or a bad connection, either won't be found or will cost severely huge amounts of money in labour.

In warranty they want to spend as little time as possible on a car and just get rid of the customer.

You simply haven't the first clue what you are talking about.

As an example, warranty repairs are a major source of income for dealers, they don't pay for those repairs, instead they reclaim those costs back from the manufacturer. The idea that a main dealer just wants rid of a customer because it is warranty work is directly contradictory to reality. The more warranty work the better as far as a dealer is concerned.

And again you spout this nonsense that main dealer technicians can't do electrical fault finding, its pure nonsense. If I had a penny for every time we got and repaired a vehicle only after an independent had spent weeks trying to find a wiring fault I would be a very rich man.

keithclancy

bucketybuck wrote: »

You simply haven't the first clue what you are talking about.

As an example, warranty repairs are a major source of income for dealers, they don't pay for those repairs, instead they reclaim those costs back from the manufacturer. The idea that a main dealer just wants rid of a customer because it is warranty work is directly contradictory to reality. The more warranty work the better as far as a dealer is concerned.

And again you spout this nonsense that main dealer technicians can't do electrical fault finding, its pure nonsense. If I had a penny for every time we got and repaired a vehicle only after an independent had spent weeks trying to find a wiring fault I would be a very rich man.

Sure .. well you have your opinion and I have mine.
I won't be going to a Main Dealer for a 'diagnosis' that consists of plugging in a cable costing 100 notes.

FFS It's like going to a brasser and giving her 100 euros just to look at you :pac:

bucketybuck

keithclancy wrote: »

Sure .. well you have your opinion and I have mine.
I won't be going to a Main Dealer for a 'diagnosis' that consists of plugging in a cable costing 100 notes.

FFS It's like going to a brasser and giving her 100 euros just to look at you :pac:

You can have your opinion, I'll stick to the facts.

Supergurrier

The facts are the main dealer had no idea what was wrong with the car and couldnt even provide a line of enquiry to begin with that wouldnt be a guess when I asked whats next.

I would atleast expect a definite course of action put before me besides come back for more diagnostics in two weeks for a look.

keithclancy

bucketybuck wrote: »

You can have your opinion, I'll stick to the facts.

Sure ... if you can reference information then it will be a fact.

For the moment you have referenced nothing so it's an opinion.

jimgoose

My opinion is that automotive technicians who can perform scans properly, interpret DTCs and live data, and conduct from there proper component-level fault-finding are highly-skilled, highly-qualified and have to be paid properly. This interferes with servicing the gigantic mortgage on the NAMA'ed Glass Palace, so part-swapping spanner-monkeys are to be had instead. Just my opinion, mind you! :pac:

My other opinion is that a £20 OBD-II scanner from the Bay of Gee that can handle standard core powertrain stuff over CanBUS and/or PWM is quite effective in many cases, but they, like most tools, need to be connected to the nut behind the steering wheel.