Justice, Freedom and Revolution -vs- Greed and Conformism

DS86 · 12-11-2014 6:43pm #1

Growing up, and through both years of reading History on my own terms, and then studying it as a degree - I had grew up under the impression that Lawyers were a rather crazy bunch, but albeit in a good way. The sort who risked life and limb to go up against the powers that be and the machinery of the state in order to champion the just causes of liberty and human rights.

Examples been our own Daniel O' Cornell who bravely went up against the powerful Westminster parliament to champion the rights of the Irish Catholic within Ireland, when millions of our ancestors were but powerless homeless and poverty-stricken peasants with next to no human rights.

Or the American Founding Fathers, the majority of whom were, or could be consider to be Lawyers, or the great troublemakers of the French Revolution, many of whom were Lawyers, all of whom during those 18th and 19th centuries risked life and limb to fight for human rights against the machinery and power of the state.

Do we still have lawyers and/ or law groups who fight for human rights this passionately, and even risk life and limb for the just causes of liberty and for the defense of the poor and the powerless, and for the cause of liberty..............or has our justice system been reduced to merely defending rich and corrupt corporations and the government, aka. the tribunals.

Do we still have Lawyers who are genuinely passionate about human rights and would be willing to risk their lifes for the cause of justice just as their 18th and 19th century predecessors had been.....................or have we been essentially reduced to a scenario were 99% of our Lawyers in present society are kiss ups for the powerful governments and corporations that only care about money and big houses, salaries, cars etc.

Are there still Lawyers in the world who care about genuine justice, even for those who can't pay well, e.g. the poor, powerless, homeless and those without freedom.........or do the majority of Lawyers nowadays merely do mundane red tape paper work while kissing the ass of those in power?

I certainly hope we still have Lawyers like we did in the 18th/ 19th century Revolutionary era, that championed human rights, liberty and justice. But increasingly, and through studying Law.........I am discovering a disgusting and corrupt conformism that seems to make our justice and legal system yet another arm for corrupt governments and corporations to exploit...........as opposed to been the last bastion of the everyday man, woman and child in seeking genuine justice and liberty, even against the most powerful of entities such as the government and the corporate sector.

12-11-2014 7:11pm

In all seriousness though, while your post is poetic it doesn't seem to pose any sort of genuine question or topic for discussion.

There are untold numbers of lawyers in this country who volunteer at Free Legal Advice Centres in their spare time, who take pro bono cases for good causes, who scrape by in an expensive profession on the measly sums offered for legal aid work because they believe that everyone has the right to a defence. There are lawyers who travel abroad on the rule of law project or to work with the Innocence projects.

Groups of lawyers have campaigned for civil liberties and human rights and continue to do so without personal reward.

You gave examples of lawyers who stood up for what they believed in the past but Mary Robinson is a great example of a modern lawyer who continues in those great shoes. There are many many others who could be named in their respective fields.

You have a viewpoint, and that's fine, but it is by no means a complete one or one with which I would agree.

12-11-2014 7:13pm

DS86 wrote: »

You're an idiot.

I've been accused of worse. Your post is well written for the most part but it's just indicative of an undergraduate view on life. You have no actual understanding of what modern lawyers do. Gaining a greater understanding of that would go a long way to assuaging your grand fears.

Oh and the Parklife thing was childish but nonetheless the rest of my points stand.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 7:27pm

I'm sorry but that was funny - would have been better directly followed by the intelligent reply offered further on but still, have a sense of humour.

There are definitely lawyers out there who champion human rights; I work with some of them. I'm not going to wax lyrically about their good works as I'd prefer to tackle the issue of why there aren't more and it comes down, simply that they need to eat.

The issue also presents itself that there are much fewer 'big issues' to tackle today than in the 17/18/19 and even 20th centuries (thankfully) and almost all of them revolve around poverty. As a society we chose to accept poverty, within certain parameters. This is a natural byproduct of capitalism, or at least that's what were asked to believe.

Read the Irish Constitution - the socio-economic rights are there, the lawyers are there to champion those rights, however they are rendered non justiciable by the political establishment. Democracy (albeit a representative form rather than a true form) in action. My simplistic take on it is simply that we all believe (brain washed?) into thinking - one day it'll be me!

Sorry my socialist leanings may be coming through.

OP if you think lawyers are bollox's more power to you, everyone thinks so until they meet a few outside of a professional context. Also bear in mind for every lawyer championing Mr. X's right to Y someone has to oppose it no matter what their actual feelings on the subject are.

Manach · 12-11-2014 7:30pm

As an outsider with a tangential connection to legal professionals, my impression is they come across as fairly normal people following their chosen career. While yes there are outliers both historical and in the present day that exist: those who live/breath human rights as a means to change society or those working the 90+ hour week to advance corporate interests. My interaction with lawyers is that, personality wise, they could be dropped into nearly any other job.

An interesting book I've come across, which might be of interest to the OP, would be "Lawyers as leaders" by Deborah Rhode. While US-centric, it gives a good overview of how society has been molded and molded lawyers and how the public both needs lawyers but yet holds them in distrust.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 7:30pm

DS86 wrote: »

But increasingly, and through studying Law.........I am discovering a disgusting and corrupt conformism that seems to make our justice and legal system yet another arm for corrupt governments and corporations to exploit...........as opposed to been the last bastion of the everyday man, woman and child in seeking genuine justice and liberty, even against the most powerful of entities such as the government and the corporate sector.

I'd be very interested in some more specific examples. I don't actually think you are wrong (neither do I believe you're hitting the nail on the head), but what specifically do you think is wrong?

DS86 · 12-11-2014 7:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

In all seriousness though, while your post is poetic it doesn't seem to pose any sort of genuine question or topic for discussion.

There are untold numbers of lawyers in this country who volunteer at Free Legal Advice Centres in their spare time, who take pro bono cases for good causes, who scrape by in an expensive profession on the measly sums offered for legal aid work because they believe that everyone has the right to a defence. There are lawyers who travel abroad on the rule of law project or to work with the Innocence projects.

Groups of lawyers have campaigned for civil liberties and human rights and continue to do so without personal reward.

You gave examples of lawyers who stood up for what they believed in the past but Mary Robinson is a great example of a modern lawyer who continues in those great shoes. There are many many others who could be named in their respective fields.

You have a viewpoint, and that's fine, but it is by no means a complete one or one with which I would agree.

That's better, less unnecessarily snarky and providing examples of modern day lawyering that doesn't just involve kissing up to powerful governments and corporations.

You know, this could have been your first contribution to this thread, bar some stupid reference to a Blur song, and this would be a good thread.

But still the questions stands, IN GENERAL, are lawyers still passionate IN GENERAL about human rights, justice and freedom. Or have the majority sold their souls to big law firms that only care about governments and corporations. Once again, a simple question, no need for smartarseery.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 7:36pm

Again - engaging the sense of humour is likely to put people at ease and give you a more honest and less adversarial response, last time I'll mention it - your thread and posting style.

You've just hit on one of the biggest points for not allowing barristers to become too attached to law firms. If all the best litigators are employed in a small number of firms engaged by the top corporations and richest people who's left for Mr. Everyman/Woman?

ldxo15wus6fpgm · 12-11-2014 7:37pm

I would imagine you could look at the history of nearly any profession and find a few heroes who fought for what they believed in no matter what the cost. The vast majority of people just keep the head down and get on with life.

One thing I would disagree with was your mention of the founding fathers of the USA. Ok, so sailing across the atlantic back then was a fairly big deal, but they didn't really have to fight for anything in my view.

Happdog · 12-11-2014 7:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been accused of worse. Your post is well written for the most part but it's just indicative of an undergraduate view on life. You have no actual understanding of what modern lawyers do. Gaining a greater understanding of that would go a long way to assuaging your grand fears.

Oh and the Parklife thing was childish but nonetheless the rest of my points stand.

Or even what Lawyers were like in the past, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" and all that. The fact that some lawyers in the past did some good does not mean that the profession is in someway fundamentally different today. It is the same as any group of people some good some bad, but mostly just ordinary people and has been this way from the very beginning of the profession

I could see some merit in an argument being put forward that there are fewer "big" and "important" ideals that could inspire people in Europe to risk life and limb. But i do not think that such an argument could be applied solely to lawyers.

12-11-2014 7:43pm

DS86 wrote: »

That's better, less unnecessarily snarky and providing examples of modern day lawyering that doesn't just involve kissing up to powerful governments and corporations.

You know, this could have been your first contribution to this thread, bar some stupid reference to a Blur song, and this would be a good thread.

But still the questions stands, IN GENERAL, are lawyers still passionate IN GENERAL about human rights, justice and freedom. Or have the majority sold their sold to big law firms that only care about governments and corporations. Once again, a simple question, no need for smartarseery.

First off it was clearly a Russell Brand reference. Also if you want to avoid smartarsery then law as career choice may have been a little misguided, but I digress.

Secondly, that is not a "simple question" that you pose. In fact it is far from it. You're asking people to determine whether or not there is a general corruption among lawyers. Leaving aside the fact that one branch of the legal profession is an independent element from "big law firms that only care about governments and corporations" you have to consider how utterly impossible a question to answer it is that you have asked.

There are a great number of human rights lawyers. There are a greater number still who believe in and fight for human rights and civil liberties. There are also lawyers who represent banks, and the Government, and people charged with rape, and debtors who can't repay their banks, and small businesses that can't repay loans, and insurance companies and people who are injured in accidents, and people who are seeking asylum, people who are going through divorce, people who want the right to end their own life humanely and people who want their birth certificate to say that they are the gender they know in their heart they were born as.

Everyone has the right to legal representation. Everyone. Big bad banks and Governments and the most oppressed and disenfranchised man on the street. We all have that right. And there is a lawyer there for us all who will do all they can to see the proper administration of justice is done.

A friend of mine once commented that it's funny how many people like their own lawyer but seem to hate the rest of them. Lawyers spend their whole lives fighting for things they believe in, things they couldn't care less about and things they totally disagree with. That's how it works. That's how it's supposed to work.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 7:44pm

Thaddeus Teeny Nostril wrote: »

I would imagine you could look at the history of nearly any profession and find a few heroes who fought for what they believed in no matter what the cost. The vast majority of people just keep the head down and get on with life.

One thing I would disagree with was your mention of the founding fathers of the USA. Ok, so sailing across the atlantic back then was a fairly big deal, but they didn't really have to fight for anything in my view.

The minutemen might disagree. They were telling the biggest empire the world has ever seen to piss off and really didn't have much of a plan to stop themselves descending into civil war and all over the water charges... sorry I mean tea taxes.

Putting that aside for the moment, there's quite a bit of overlap between the US and French revolutions, Mr. Jefferson popping up amongst others. Once the power had firmly got into the hands of the people in France, let's not forget it was referred to the Terror for a reason.

DS86 · 12-11-2014 7:44pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I'd be very interested in some more specific examples. I don't actually think you are wrong (neither do I believe you're hitting the nail on the head), but what specifically do you think is wrong?

Oh come on, it's a well established fact that many Lawyers are only too happy and willing to kiss the behind of the hand that feeds, aka. big government and big corporations just in order to get ahead.

In fairness, I won't hold that against them, because from what I see, our entire justice system, just like our former democracy seems to be corrupted and benefiting only those with power and wealth. Our justice system, as an arm of our democratic system, and the lawyers representing that systems should be at the forefront of change and fighting the corrupt powers that be, and making real change in this world for real people - and not just sucking up to corporations and the government.

But unfortunately I don't see too many of these types of Lawyers, aka. fighting for justice and human rights.....about, and instead a legal system which seems to spend 99% of it's time dealing with government's and corporations problems, and yet turns a blind eye to human rights problems, possibly because that area doesn't pay as much as sucking up to corporations.

I honestly believe that the Lawyer profession is a noble ideal in it's original intention, but given the behaviour of so many lawyers in recent years, aka. at the tribunals, and with the believe that they only care about money, and not actual justice...............then it's understandable why so much of the public holds such a contempt and downright hatred for the Lawyering profession.

If Lawyers genuinely done there job in protecting justice and freedom, even for the poor of limited means,.............as opposed to kissing the ass of governments and corporations as of recent years, then the Lawyering profession could once again be a noble profession and considered to be central to the advancement of society in general.

Until then, Lawyers will be hated, and our entire justice system will revolve around keeping governments and corporations out of trouble...............as opposed to been the last safeguard of justice and freedom for every last man, woman and child out there.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 7:51pm

DS86 wrote: »

Oh come on, it's a well established fact that many Lawyers are only too happy and willing to kiss the behind of the hand that feeds, aka. big government and big corporations just in order to get ahead.

In fairness, I won't hold that against them, because from what I see, our entire justice system, just like our former democracy seems to be corrupted and benefiting only those with power and wealth. Our justice system, as an arm of our democratic system, and the lawyers representing that systems should be at the forefront of change and fighting the corrupt powers that be, and making real change in this world for real people - and not just sucking up to corporations and the government.

But unfortunately I don't see too many of these types of Lawyers, aka. fighting for justice and human rights.....about, and instead a legal system which seems to spend 99% of it's time dealing with government's and corporations problems, and yet turns a blind eye to human rights problems, possibly because that area doesn't pay as much as sucking up to corporations.

I honestly believe that the Lawyer profession is a noble ideal in it's original intention, but given the behaviour of so many lawyers in recent years, aka. at the tribunals, and with the believe that they only care about money, and not actual justice...............then it's understandable why so much of the public holds such a contempt and downright hatred for the Lawyering profession.

If Lawyers genuinely done there job in protecting justice and freedom, even for the poor of limited means,.............as opposed to kissing the ass of governments and corporations as of recent years, then the Lawyering profession could once again be a noble profession and considered to be central to the advancement of society in general.

Until then, Lawyers will be hated, and our entire justice system will revolve around keeping governments and corporations out of trouble...............as opposed to been the last safeguard of justice and freedom for every last man, woman and child out there.

But lawyers aren't there to protect anything, they are there to advocate for their clients.

You might make the argument that Judges are there to protect justice but what is justice? Ask Kelson, Bentham, Dworkin, Frank and you'll get at least 4 different answers. Not only that the common law powers judges enjoy in England was stripped away by the Irish Constitution because the founders of this country believed (rightly or wrongly) in a stronger separation of powers.

Taking umbrage at a lawyer that pursues the best clients is like having a go at footballers who pursue the best clubs.

12-11-2014 7:52pm

DS86 wrote: »

Oh come on, it's a well established fact that many Lawyers are only too happy and willing to kiss the behind of the hand that feeds, aka. big government and big corporations just in order to get ahead.

If you're really an undergraduate law student then you need to rapidly adjust the way you determine what are "well established facts".

What human rights do you think are being infringed in Ireland? Prison system needs overhauling I grant you, definite work needs to be done on reproductive rights but lawyers have been advocating on those for years. Asylum system? That's pretty much constantly being worked on by lawyers to be reformed.

12-11-2014 7:53pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

But lawyers aren't there to protect anything, they are there to advocate for their clients.

You might make the argument that Judges are there to protect justice but what is justice? Ask Kelson, Bentham, Dworkin, Frank and you'll get at least 4 different answers. Not only that the common law powers judges enjoy in England was stripped away by the Irish Constitution because the founders of this country believed (rightly or wrongly) in a stronger separation of powers.

Taking umbrage at a lawyer that pursues the best clients is like having a go at footballers who pursue the best clubs.

A barrister's duty goes beyond that. They are there to assist the Court first and foremost. They do that by advocating for their client as best they can but there are obvious and necessary limits to that.

Victor · 12-11-2014 7:55pm

A celebrated human right lawyer can also be referred to as a dead criminal defence lawyer.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 7:58pm

- Gender - being worked on for free by many lawyers
- Abortion - every man/woman and his dog are involved in this on both sides
- Prisons -IPRT - many lawyers
- Miscarriages of justice - Irish Innocence project - many lawyers working for free and attending meetings at 8am in the fecking morning :pac:
-Socio-economic rights - many hippie... err lawyers on this, again don't see a big pay day coming on this.
-Mortgages/Banks - numerous groups, whether it can be argued New Beginnings are still working for free is questionable to be fair.
-FLAC many, many, many lawyers fighting the good fight
-Fathers rights - dunno tbh.

The list is endless. On the flip side you'll have lawyers that believe a woman place is in the home, no sex before marriage or without risk of reproduction and others that think that McDonald's should rule the world. Broadly reflective of the population.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 8:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A barrister's duty goes beyond that. They are there to assist the Court first and foremost. They do that by advocating for their client as best they can but there are obvious and necessary limits to that.

I speak in the general sense including solicitors and simply to underscore a point; but on this OP you'd be advised to look at how the profession itself is put together and the rationale behind it. I bear you no ill will btw - excellent thread IMHO, but keep an open mind.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 8:07pm

OP - I'm also not sure if you're an undergrad law student or studying on your own (the latter is the impression I got - please correct me if I'm wrong). If I may ask what has your contact been with Jurisprudence to this point? I think you're gonna love it! (I absolutely adore it)

If you haven't already try and get hold of a copy of Lloyd's Introduction to Jurisprudence.

DS86 · 12-11-2014 8:08pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The minutemen might disagree. They were telling the biggest empire the world has ever seen to piss off and really didn't have much of a plan to stop themselves descending into civil war and all over the water charges... sorry I mean tea taxes.

Putting that aside for the moment, there's quite a bit of overlap between the US and French revolutions, Mr. Jefferson popping up amongst others. Once the power had firmly got into the hands of the people in France, let's not forget it was referred to the Terror for a reason.

Excellent post. Important to remember that Thomas Jefferson was a Lawyer, a lawyer who benefited the course of human evolution, and not just got rich off of corrupt governments and corporations. We need more Lawyers like this, because the corporate sector is destroying the profession from what I can see, and turning it into yet another conformist bastion of corporate interests.

Lawyers, just as Thomas Jefferson was, should be at the forefront of change for the better, and justice for all........instead of the current legal system seems to only concern itself with government tribunals and corporate interests such as business contracts etc.

I have been amongst the very few to have actually admired Lawyers all my life, not least from what I've read upon through my History degree. Now that I am studying Law, I would like to think my efforts are aiming toward a better world where justice and liberty shall be served.

I want to believe that everybody in the legal sector can make a change and return to their routes as been revolutionaries, as opposed to the government/ corporate kiss ass conformists many have become........................I want to believe I am on the path toward securing justice and liberty for everybody, but most particularly those who are most vunerable and helpless.

I believe that justice and liberty are applicable to every man, woman and child............and not just to rich and powerful governments and corporations..................which take up 99% of law graduates, suck them in and turn them into ZOMBIES, only representing bureaucratic and corporate interests.........as opposed to defending liberty and justice.

I believe that all Lawyers should fight for only liberty and justice, even for the most powerless and poorest of men.....................and should cut the cord with big corporate interests and corrupt governments.

Our justice system should be for the people, and not for corrupt polliticans and corporations.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 8:17pm

Err.. I might have to burst your bubble about Tommy...:pac:

In all fairness the big corporations take more like 1% of lawyers. 60% of barristers never make it at the bar and have to find other employment. I suppose you could call making sure what's said in an blurb for Vodafone is kissing the arse of a big corporation, more likely it's kissing the arse of Pam in HR trying to get a 2.5% pay rise this year.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 8:23pm

In all honesty OP I think you're confusing activism with lawyering. Some lawyers are indeed activists, but not all activists are lawyers. Also one should not confuse a legal education with lawyering. Ghandi was, of course, a barrister - however what he ended up doing was perhaps informed by his legal education but one could not fairly refer to him as a (practising) lawyer later in life.

DS86 · 12-11-2014 8:42pm

Ok before I go any further, and since reading some posts of those involved with Law schools and/ or the Law profession itself, aka. solicitors and barristers or whatever else..........can I ask all of you, is cynicism a necessary part of the profession, or are/ were you just an unnecessarily cynical bunch to begin with?

I'll admit, that I just started studying Law as a postgraduate after years of my studying my favourite subject...............perhaps, there is a module in this academic Law course, as I assume 90% of the rest of you have gone through that teaches one to merely give up on life, buckle down and conform to governmental/ corporate norms etc.

Maybe that's why you are all such cynical assholes...........you actually have first hand experience of the Irish Legal system.............maybe us students at university are just naive sheep been pumped with ****e about human rights etc.......when really we are heading toward governmental/ corporate jobs, just like the rest of you cynical folks here.

So let me, I've been naive to choose this subject.............while I have as of now a genuine passion for this area, like any human being would.......................are you all through your smart aliac commentary trying to inform both me and future Law students, that we quickly lose the idealism of human rights and all that malarky...........and become mere drones defending corporations and governments................and thus become miserable, sarcastic and unbearable people in the meantime?

12-11-2014 9:28pm

What are you even talking about?

We are all cynical assholes? We have been talking about human rights lawyers and volunteering huge amounts of time to defending those who cannot afford to defend themselves. Nobody here has said anything approaching actual cynicism (other than noting your seemingly unrealistic and iron-clad belief that law is somehow in thrall to some shady government/corporation thing).

You've done nothing but spout ill-founded beliefs thus far. Thomas Jefferson good/ tribunal lawyers bad is a pretty simplistic argument. For a start only a TINY percentage of lawyers ever worked on the tribunals. A much greater percentage are immigration lawyers, human rights lawyers, defence lawyers in commercial cases and debt cases or just the vast majority of lawyers who take whatever case comes to them.

Lawyers make arguments, not decisions. One argues for the "evil corporations" and necessarily one argues against. Even if your overly simplistic view was absolutely correct it would still make at most 50% of lawyers corrupt and the other half absolute guardians of justice.

12-11-2014 9:32pm

Oh and one last thing (Columbo reference!)...

Stop calling people assholes. Quite apart from the fact that it is rude, unnecessary and frankly a pedestrian put-down it also immediately undermines anything else you say.

If you are actually studying law (be it postgrad or not) then you'll need to improve argument style, writing style and learn to control your emotions in a discussion.

You came into a legal discussion forum accusing lawyers of being corrupt shills of the government and corporations and then proceeded to call everyone assholes, indoctrinated stooges and sheep. It's not exactly in the spirit of good debate now is it?

Beano · 12-11-2014 10:17pm

How many lawyers have you actually met DS86? what are you basing your opinions on?

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 10:26pm

Sorry OP I was willing to engage but this is now looking like a trolling exercise. I simply don't see what you're driving at. Not everyone can work on Lydia Foy's or Zappone & Gilligan's case. Lawyers are like doctors; for the most-part they treat colds and scrapes. Not everyone is yelling clear and stat and most lawyers are dealing with Joe shoplifter or Jannet whiplash.

How you can think that people here are mouthpieces for the state I've no idea; the merest mention the the PIAB seems to send most into a fit of rage.

DS86 · 12-11-2014 10:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What are you even talking about? .

I'm talking about been f***ed on the street like an animal. I'm talking about having to bearing the torture of rain/ cold/ dirt and whatever else for THREE LONG WEEKS...............yet our legal system seemingly not giving a ****.

I'm talking about my BASIC human rights been ****ted all over, been put out in the open like an animal and yet NOBODY within our legal system has either come up with an answer...........or given a ****.

Yest THAT'S RIGHT...............I study law, I'm passionate about Law and justice..................I ALWAYS THOUGHT that Lawyers were genuine advocates for human rights, liberty and freedom..............just like I would love to be..........providing I pass all academic and vocational qualiifcations.....................

.............YET here I am................WITH NO ****ING VOICE...............I was put out FOR THREE LONG WEEKS OUT ON THE ****ING STREET............................A cruel and torturous journey.................my rights shat all over by our government, both national and local.....................................

.............YET only for Lawyers supposedly there on my side.................I'M STILL HOMELESS................albiet with the veneer of "emergency accommodation"............from the SAME GOVERNMENT that ****ed me over to begin with.

Go ahead you bunch and represent all the corporations and governments, just to find easy work..............MEANWHILE...............there are people with their basic human rights and liberties within our democratic system ****ted over..............

...........including even Law students who only want to make a better future for myself AND CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY.....................and to forward human rights for the homeless etc..........................................................

............BUT GUESS WHAT.....................despite been out on ****ing streets for THREE long weeks, and living like a ****ing ANIMAL..................................WHAT does our legal sector turn around and tell me .........................."you don't have a case"...................

....................WELL THAT'S LOVELY................one of my basic ****ing human rights ****ing ****TED over by my local council.....................me out like a ****ing ANIMAL for 3 weeks out in the cold, rain and dirt.....................................and yet having to deal with Lawyers that tell me............."there's nothing with the Law that can be done here".........................

**** THAT......................and **** big government and corporate Ireland.................it's the ORDINARY PEOPLE................and most importantly those most impoverished that need our justice system.................................

..........yet what does our justice system, a bastion of our democracy...................hijacked from day one of the founding of the state by rich spoiled brats with silver spoons born in their mouth......................tell us we should do???????????

...............................Merely to shut the **** up, and get on with it, regardless of whether you have been abused according to EU legislation....................................................

...............sure **** that, you aren't a posh kid of a millionare rich kid from Ballsbridge, or son of a Barrister.................so WHY should we care for YOU..............a mere PLEB, a mere animal..................................................................WE HAVE HAVE BETTER THINGS TO BE DEALING WITH, ...........like kissing the Irish Governments and Corporate America's ass...............................

.................UP YOURS PEASANT...........................we at XYZ Law firm care most sincerely about governmental and corporate interests............................we'll even hold an event just to show we care, or pretend we care............for your stupid interests............................................................................................................

MEANWHILE...............those folks of modest background such as I, as of 99% of the population....who have been SPATTED, ****TED AND VOMITED UPON BY our government..................

............oh yeah FUCCKKKKKK them...............mere impoverished plebs and peasants BAD FOR BUSINESS.....................let's choose to lick the governments arse, along with those of corporations instead......................................................................

................JUSTICE AND LIBERTY FOR THE PEOPLE................AND LAWYERS FOR JUSTICE, LIBERTY, HUMAN DIGNITY AND CARE...................................................

JUSTICE FOR ALL..............................and may the best Lawyers within our system..............those that aren't greedy ****ing pigs that care about money..................those that STILL CARE ABOUT GENUINE JUSTICE LIKE THEIR LAW DEGREES THOUGHT THEM TO BE.........................I welcome them.....................

All you Solicitors/ Barristers here on boards.ie representing corrupt governments and corporations can go ****K yourself s as far as I'm concerned.

Those brave Lawyers who ACTUALLY stand up for justice............including those who are most weak, impoverished etc...............I SALUTE YOU ALL..................and I hope to be like you one day.

JUSTICE FOR ALL..............even for those, aka. the homeless which our supposed modern and "civilsied" Irish society pushes away and treats like absolute DIRT.........................just as our ancestors did to single mothers back in the 1940's when they kicked them into the Laundries................

YOU LAZY people with the power of attorney..........stop kissing government/ corporate asses.................and REPRESENT THE PEOPLE............INCLUDING THE DOWNTRODDEN WITHIN OUR DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM.......................FOR ONCE!!!!!!!

Lawyer should equal people power, NOT another kiss ar$e service for the government.

LONG LIVE FREEDOM AND JUSTICE............MAY EVERYBODY WITH THE POWER OF ATTORNEY UPHOLD IT....................goodnight folks.

MarkAnthony · 12-11-2014 10:33pm

Again you think it's lawyers that don't want to enforce socio-economic rights - wrong arm of the state. Look in the general direction of Kildare Street.

I honestly thought a decent conversation was gonna happen - wrong again.

Beano · 12-11-2014 10:35pm

i started to read that then lost the will to live

DS86 · 12-11-2014 10:38pm

Beano wrote: »

i started to read that then lost the will to live

Whatever.

12-11-2014 10:48pm

If you wanted to just shout at some lawyers you could have just said.

I am sorry if you were made homeless but no lawyer was responsible for that and many many lawyers work night and day advocating for the rights of homeless people and those in danger of becoming so.

Also there is a small army of lawyers working with Amnesty International on enshrining socio-economic rights as justiciable rights in the Constitution.

We are not mouthpieces for the State, we are not corrupt and we are not evil. Bad things happen and they are awful and I sincerely hope that you find a way through this soon. Giving out about lawyers who had nothing to do with it won't help though.

Pat Mustard · 12-11-2014 10:55pm

Mod:

DS86, you started this discussion on the pretext of looking for genuine discussion. Your posting has degenerated into abusive rants against posters here. This sort of carry-on is unwelcome here.

Please don't post in this thread again.

If you decide to participate in discussion in this forum in future, you'll have to raise the standard of your posts.

DS86 · 12-11-2014 11:06pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Again you think it's lawyers that don't want to enforce socio-economic rights - wrong arm of the state. Look in the general direction of Kildare Street.

I honestly thought a decent conversation was gonna happen - wrong again.

I'm trying my best here, I REALLY do believe that Lawyers are the last bastion of the common man, woman and child against our ****ed up undemocratic and corrupt system.

I WANT Lawyers to stand up for all those who have been violated. GET THIS, unlike say 99% of the Irish public who either flat out either hate Lawyers..........or have no knowledge of what they do......

..........GET THIS, I actually ADMIRE Lawyers. I think they are wonderful people who can save people from the powers of government.

I dream of been a Lawyer one day...........I truly would love to be a Lawyer that represents those who are poorest, the most powerless etc.....................................

...........I honestly love Law as much as I do/ did History that I shall take on any person who has been through what I have been through and FREE of charge.,........................

THE LAST FEW DECADES HAVE MADE A MOCKERY OF OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM....................our entire legal sector seems more focused on, just as it is within the United States on defending the government and powerful corporations ...............

...........WHERE ARE THE HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYERS...............who defend not only me, but YOU too..............WHERE ARE THEY..................are WHY do we seemingly have a corrupt legal system that seems to only care about powerful governments and corporations.......SO MUCH FOR DEMOCRACY ......................

...............AND BEFORE ANY OF YOU GO ANY further.................let me ask ye this, or these difficult questions.............HAVE YOU EVER SLEPT OUT UNDER THE STARS...OR ON THE STREETS...............OR UNDER FOREST TREES LIKE A ****ING ANIMAL.............................have ANY OF YOU ever actually experienced living like a fcking ANIMAL..............................................................

..............Have ANY OF YOU EXPERIENCED that hardship................,ONLY to be TURNED AWAY from our legal system...........................................................

APPARENTLY our Lawyers and Judges are more concerned with upholding the rights of corrupt and inefficient bureaucracies...............and leaving the common man, woman and child DRY....................................................

.............THAT IS HOW OUR LEGAL SYSTEM WORKS................for the benefit of the rich and powerful..........

REVOLUTION REVOLUTION REVOLUTION....................May our legal system FINALLY and once and for all represent the ordinary man, woman and child...............and not just the corrupt few wealthy who run our society......................................

LIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACY
LIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACYLIBERTY, JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACY

Freedom and justice for ALL................may Lawyers live up to their jobs within this state and all states in upholding liberty and justice FOR EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD...........................and may we be free of all injustice.

I CALL REVOLUTION/ REVOLUTION/ REVOLUTION.....UPON EVERY LAST MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD IN THIS STATE FOR A FAIRER LEGAL AND DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM..................................................................................................................

JUSTICE AND FREEDOM FOR ALL.....................Bless true justice and liberty.............may EVERY Lawyer fight for its causes against the power that be......................

.............................JUSTICE AND LIBERTY FOR ALL, and that includes 100% of us. NOT JUST the priveleged 1% of us who got to go to TCD and Kings Inn etc.

REVOLUTION..................and yes that is also aimed at you old money ***** who have a monpoloy on our "supposed" democratic legal system..........................................

..............HEY GUESS WHAT IDIOTS.................GO AHEAD AND SUE ME...............

..............GO ON SUEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ME......................GO AHEAD YOU SPOILT BRATS............BUT GUESS WHAT..........................................................................................................................................

I through the witness of my experiences shall be an equal among you................even though you consider me to be nothing more than an animal.............................................

.............you wanna think that, then GO AHEAD....................maybe I am inferior you snobby, stuck up pr!cks...............but I will always have more than you lot ever had LIFE EXPERIENCE...................

YOU CORRUPT SCUMBAG RICH KIDS THAT MONOPOLISE OUR LEGAL SYSTEM..................then come and take me on..............................................

............IN FACT WHEN I BECOME GRADUATED IN LAWYERING AND ADVOCACY ...............I WILL DESTROY 100 OF YOU PUT TOGETHER........................................................................NO LIE............................GIVEN THE HARDSHIP AND CRUELTY OF MY LIFE......................I SHALL DESTROY ALL OF YOU SPOLIED FUCIKING BRATS....................

Liberty and justice for all AND **** THE CORRUPT AND LAZY LAWYERS who kiss ass................................

..............as far as I'm concerned we are back in the wild west as far as issues such as these are concerned.............

LIBERTY, JUSTICE AND DIGNITY FOR ALL MEN....................and lets those rights NEVER subside...........for they represent those BASIC rights we wish as a society to see dealt with...........................GOOD NIGHT AND **** YOU ALL, YOU *****

Pat Mustard · 12-11-2014 11:18pm

Mod:

DS86 banned for a couple of days.

johnnyskeleton · 12-11-2014 11:19pm

DS86 wrote: »

But still the questions stands, IN GENERAL, are lawyers still passionate IN GENERAL about human rights, justice and freedom.

Yes.

12-11-2014 11:20pm

Literally couldn't resist the 2nd one mods. Sorry if it was unnecessarily antagonistic.

johnnyskeleton · 12-11-2014 11:40pm

Would it be wrong to point out that a lot of lawyers are working to try to establish that corporations and businesses have constitutional rights?

I believe that ones right to work and set up a busibess without undue interference with government is a human right. Does that make me a corporate shill or a human rights activist (or both!)?

12-11-2014 11:45pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Would it be wrong to point out that a lot of lawyers are working to try to establish that corporations and businesses have constitutional rights?

I believe that ones right to work and set up a busibess without undue interference with government is a human right. Does that make me a corporate shill or a human rights activist (or both!)?

Actually should start a thread on this.

Citizens United is an abomination of a decision from the US Supreme Court would be my opening thesis.

Companies have been held here to have rights but they have to be limited by the natural infirmity of the company. Just as a company enjoys benefits not afforded to a natural person so too should they have restrictions not encumbering a natural person. Anyway, topic for another thread perhaps.

johnnyskeleton · 13-11-2014 12:34am

Having had a quick look through DS86s other posts I saw this:

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057276018/1/#post91875010

So DS86 actually sought and obtained some significant practical advice and a link to a statement of the law in relation to the very same problem, for free and without quibble.

Ok, it wasnt the answer he was looking for, but renting a room in an owner occupiers house is unforunately a risky move. I dont think any lawyer could reasonably argue that the owner couldnt terminate the licence nor do i think that a revolution which would require homeowners who rent out rooms to never evict tenants would be fair on those homeowners.

Luckily he got emergency accommodation, and hes far from alone - the current rental market in dublin is absolutely crazy and i have lots of sympathy for people in this position, especially if you are a student with no family to rely on. I consider myself incredibly lucky that i have several friends and family members to offer me a spare bed or a couch to stay on if i ever need it. I appreciate that not everyone is as fortunate nor does everyone feel comfortable accepting such help.

However, on the socio economic rights issue, im not sure that the state is breaching socio economic rights if it doesnt provide more than emergency accommodation. Unfortunately everything has to be paid for by someone and most of the burden falls on working people/families. As this burden increases they can no longer pay their own way and become a burden on someone else until the whole system breaks down.

Hopefully in time DS86 will start to appreciate this, but obviously being made homeless at a stressful time is not the best time to reevaluate ones ideas. Maybe he could be forgiven for being so upset and unfairly blaming woes on the legal professions.

Justice, Freedom and Revolution -vs- Greed and Conformism

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