Bus Éireann return ticket question

Intifada

Say one wanted to get a return ticket from Stop A to stop Z, but actually commenced the first leg of their journey at stop C (closer to Z), would this be allowed?

i.e.

pay for Cork->Galway return, but get on the bus in Limerick, then get the return back to Cork.

Logically I can't see how this is a problem as the ticket is unused and the journey is actually cheaper than paid for.

gbob

If you're talking about an Internet ticket the answer is no, you must board the outward journey at the stop from which it was booked. Otherwise the MAC no. can't be inserted into the ticket machine and you'll be told to pay cash and seek a refund on the Internet warrant. For the return journey it doesn't matter where you board as there is no MAC to be inserted.

Intifada

Aye I found the MAC thing out the hard way when a bus driver almost wouldn't let me on at Knock Airport because my ticket was from Knock :rolleyes: can imagine that happening to a few people especially tourists landing in. Soon knock any notions of Irish hospitality (pardon the pun).

Bus Eireann actually manage to make online bookings less convenient than conventional ones so I never bother. Thanks for the info.

veryangryman

Intifada wrote: »

Aye I found the MAC thing out the hard way when a bus driver almost wouldn't let me on at Knock Airport because my ticket was from Knock :rolleyes: can imagine that happening to a few people especially tourists landing in. Soon knock any notions of Irish hospitality (pardon the pun).

Bus Eireann actually manage to make online bookings less convenient than conventional ones so I never bother. Thanks for the info.

Same happened to me with Dublin (Airport). B0llocking from driver (although in fairness to him he did let me board after i said i'd know next time). You wouldn't get that problem with Citylink or Gobus. For national routes, it shouldn't matter what part of town or city they pick you up (especially in cases where the fare is the exact same).

CVH24

I understand from a driver friend, the online ticketing is slow, but sadly it is far from perfect, it is location specific and a driver can not go backwards, there is away to override the machine and it is slow and drivers are not to do it as it upsets the gps tracking and ideas of fraud come to mind too, so sadly the driver is in a now win situation. If a driver allows someone on with out issuing the ticket and it is a return there is now no way to issue a return. I guess it is easier on the train where you book your ticket and can collect from a nominated station so no issue on that.

gbob

Intifada wrote: »

Bus Eireann actually manage to make online bookings less convenient than conventional ones so I never bother. Thanks for the info.

The system as it is, is brutal. There is approximately 400 locations in the country on it, and if the location you want isn't there you're required to board elsewhere or not use the online booking.

Drivers aren't equipped to offer a fix but are supposed to tell people "tough, you booked it wrong". If a driver accepts the warrant without putting it through the machine they face being docked the value of it.

And as for the 400 or so locations, I've seen townlands where nobody boards on it and fair size towns where there is a queue for every passing bus not on it.

Absolute nonsensical situation.

gbob

CVH24 wrote: »

I understand from a driver friend, the online ticketing is slow, but sadly it is far from perfect, it is location specific and a driver can not go backwards, there is away to override the machine and it is slow and drivers are not to do it as it upsets the gps tracking and ideas of fraud come to mind too, so sadly the driver is in a now win situation. If a driver allows someone on with out issuing the ticket and it is a return there is now no way to issue a return.

All true except that on the newer ticket machines, they can't AFAIK, be rolled back.

I do advise people to book the next stop that is on the route, rather than a previous stop so at least the ticket can be issued farther on along the route. I know that sounds illogical because the passenger is effectively travelling without a ticket for that distance, but it's an easier situation to manage and if necessary, explain. Plus, it's probably the least inconvenience to passengers.

CVH24

If passengers are without tickets are they fare paying passengers, covered by insurance and getting a discounted ticket as they are traveling for more than they paid for and as such are fare evading, they are being treated differently than those paying cash and getting online discount on top of that, Its better to tell people to buy the correct ticket like a cash customer!

Sorry to be so hard but passengers should not mind paying the correct fare and all should be treated the same!

gbob

CVH24 wrote: »

If passengers are without tickets are they fare paying passengers, covered by insurance and getting a discounted ticket as they are traveling for more than they paid for and as such are fare evading, they are being treated differently than those paying cash and getting online discount on top of that, Its better to tell people to buy the correct ticket like a cash customer!

Sorry to be so hard but passengers should not mind paying the correct fare and all should be treated the same!

Hard would be my preferred line, but there are those that do turn up for the last bus with an incorrectly booked warrant with no cash.. what would you do? Treat each on its merits, if yours or my teenage daughter turns up on her way home from college for the weekend with no cash and misbooked ticket I'll take the chance of having to explain that to an inspector/manager. Also there are many times when we would be instructed by inspectors to carry passengers without valid tickets, and insurance or otherwise is never an issue.

Personally I'd much prefer black and white, but grey areas are way more prevalent in Irish public transport than they should be.

Intifada

gbob wrote: »

Hard would be my preferred line, but there are those that do turn up for the last bus with an incorrectly booked warrant with no cash.. what would you do?.

I would just let them on without issuing a ticket, because they have clearly already paid so the company is not out of pocket.

gbob

Intifada wrote: »

I would just let them on without issuing a ticket, because they have clearly already paid so the company is not out of pocket.

Unfortunately it's way too easy to print up a copy of what looks like Internet warrant, entering the MAC is validation of a genuine booking, and issuing the ticket without validating the MAC shows up on the drivers module, if it turns out the booking is not valid the driver is out of pocket.

CVH24

While understand your concept that they have paid, but my understanding is that it creates two situations, driver accepts incorrect internet ticket, bus checked driver wrong must see the boss. Even if he/she explains situation to inspector as he/she was not following procedure. The second being the passenger with a return ticket has no way for their return ticket. Passenger happy at first and feels extra angry later. But if the passenger was asked to pay again they would be good for return journey and be able to get refund on on the internet ticket so passenger less out of pocket, driver covered.

Additionally as no mac number was entered the ticket remains valid, so an additional copy could be used on a different bus. Open to fraud.

Additionally the passenger bought the ticket online and received a discount subject to the terms and conditions of the purchase.

Additionally the system was designed to work on ticket machines well pass their sell by dates. Also I believe most drivers would be off the belief that internet ticket are slower than cash fare transactions. So really the whole system is flawed and the driver get to deal with.

Also someone made the point that when travelling from the airport they will only buy their ticket from the driver, this has the effect of increasing dwell times and the reliability of the service down the road, I remember being on a X1 to Belfast and bus got to the airport at 20 minutes past the hour and spent 30 minutes completing loading as every one paid cash and of course sterling too, oh and not to forget the pink pass ticket too. The machines as i understand it are to have passengers ready with tickets and speed up boarding and dwell time.

Its really a case of a complete root and branch ticketing review that is need instead of a patchwork exercise as we have at present and the same goes for leap too.

horseburger

gbob wrote: »

The system as it is, is brutal. There is approximately 400 locations in the country on it, and if the location you want isn't there you're required to board elsewhere or not use the online booking.

Drivers aren't equipped to offer a fix but are supposed to tell people "tough, you booked it wrong". If a driver accepts the warrant without putting it through the machine they face being docked the value of it.

And as for the 400 or so locations, I've seen townlands where nobody boards on it and fair size towns where there is a queue for every passing bus not on it.

Absolute nonsensical situation.

Indeed, it doesn't make sense not to include every location served by the various bus routes.

Why is it that with the buy online option, that the drop down menu does not include every location served throughout the country?

It's as if certain bus routes are not included in the buy online option and then as a result the locations served by those buses.

gbob

horseburger wrote: »

Indeed, it doesn't make sense not to include every location served by the various bus routes.

Why is it that with the buy online option, that the drop down menu does not include every location served throughout the country?

It's as if certain bus routes are not included in the buy online option and then as a result the locations served by those buses.

A limitation of the system is the 400 or so locations, someone had to decide which to include or preclude.

veryangryman

gbob wrote: »

A limitation of the system is the 400 or so locations, someone had to decide which to include or preclude.

In fairness, airports were a daft thing to preclude, especially Dublin. I mean WTF. Do they want us all driving or something

gbob

veryangryman wrote: »

In fairness, airports were a daft thing to preclude, especially Dublin. I mean WTF. Do they want us all driving or something

I don't think airports are precluded but the system was built before airports became a focus for BE. So they were probably added as an afterthought and may not work as well as they could.

CVH24

Dublin airport is on the list not excluded, Dublin Airport Direct it is called! So what you on about?

LXFlyer

veryangryman wrote: »

In fairness, airports were a daft thing to preclude, especially Dublin. I mean WTF. Do they want us all driving or something

All four airports (Dublin, Cork, Shannon and Knock) are all listed in the dropdown list.

CVH24

Also just reading back over this tread, it seems i fully believe a full review of the online ticketing needs to be done and PSO ticketing separated from Expressway ticketing as the person who originally started this tread was looking to get an Expressway service and we see that people who commute from say Virginia and cavan also want to travel on the 30 service and they should be on the 109 service.

I believe looking at treads and talking to people as well as looking at the timetables people want to travel from Busaras to Virginia and cavan on the 30 if they do and the bus is busy out of Busaras or the airport the people at the airport who have no other choice but 30 are inconvienced and asked to wait 2 hours on the next service where as the seat the are occupied from Busaras to cavan are now unoccupied from cavan and there would have been people left behind in the airport very glad of them seats!
Any more views on this?

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

Also just reading back over this tread, it seems i fully believe a full review of the online ticketing needs to be done and PSO ticketing separated from Expressway ticketing as the person who originally started this tread was looking to get an Expressway service and we see that people who commute from say Virginia and cavan also want to travel on the 30 service and they should be on the 109 service.

I believe looking at treads and talking to people as well as looking at the timetables people want to travel from Busaras to Virginia and cavan on the 30 if they do and the bus is busy out of Busaras or the airport the people at the airport who have no other choice but 30 are inconvienced and asked to wait 2 hours on the next service where as the seat the are occupied from Busaras to cavan are now unoccupied from cavan and there would have been people left behind in the airport very glad of them seats!
Any more views on this?

There is always room on the midnight 30 bus that leaves from the Store St side of Bus Aras to Donegal Town every night, for people for Virginia, Cavan and every other town covered in between Dublin, Dublin Airport and Donegal Town.

For that reason I think it makes sense to make passengers - who use the 109 from Cavan and Virginia to Dublin, aware that there is a daily service they can get every night at midnight from Dublin and the airport to Virginia and Cavan.

The last 109 to Virginia and Cavan is 10.30pm Monday to Saturday and on Sundays the last 109 to Virginia and Cavan is 8.30pm, so the midnight 30 bus is useful for people going to both towns, who can get it from Dublin and from the airport.

http://buseireann.ie/pdf/1403523374-109.pdf

http://buseireann.ie/pdf/1415719270-030.pdf

http://buseireann.ie/pdf/1360750243-030.pdf

CVH24

Well as regards the midnight service, i would guess the midnight is okay for capacity but not during the day. But again a PSO ticket on a Commercial service is what I was pointing out. But if people can do it at midnight why can they not do it at 1730? Thats where the arguments happen??

This is all down to NTA and EU law sadly!!

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

Well as regards the midnight service, i would guess the midnight is okay for capacity but not during the day. But again a PSO ticket on a Commercial service is what I was pointing out. But if people can do it at midnight why can they not do it at 1730? Thats where the arguments happen??

This is all down to NTA and EU law sadly!!

There are lots of passengers from Cavan and Virginia that use the 30 Dublin Donegal bus to and from Dublin City Centre and Dublin Airport.

These passengers from Virginia or Cavan going to and from the city centre, many commuting up and down throughout the week, would be more likely to be using this 30 bus service more regularly than those from long distance places like Donegal Town or Ballyshannon, going to and from the airport.

If, for example, those passengers for Virginia and Cavan that used this service - who would likely be using it far more regularly than those going to and from longer distances like Ballyshannon or Donegal Town and the airport - were told to only use the 109 service, I think that would be unfair.

I think that these passengers help sustain the 30 bus service.

The reason that Cavan and Virginia passengers at the airport would be opting for the 30 bus is that the other service in their direction from there - the 109A - ends in Kells.

If they use the 109A to Kells, they would then have to wait in Kells, for the guts of an hour, for the 109 that leaves Dublin going to Virginia and Cavan.

There is the possibility that they may be able to connect in Kells with the 109 that leaves Bus Aras every hour, on the half hour, for Virginia and Cavan. These 109's leave Bus Aras 10 minutes after the 109A leaves the airport at 20 past the hour, and sometimes, depending on traffic, the 109s and 109As arrive in Navan and Kells around the same time.

Making the connection would only be done if the 109A arrives in Navan and Kells before the 109.

An example of this 109/109A tight connection is the 109A that leaves the airport at 11.20pm. It usually arrives in Navan and Kells around the same time as the 109 that leaves Bus Aras at 11.30pm.

Sometimes this 11.20pm 109A arrives at the Mercy Convent Navan and Kells stops before the 11.30pm 109 - for example it has sometimes passed out the 109 when the 109 was dropping passengers off at the Tara na Rí outside Navan - but other times it arrives in both towns shortly after the 109.

Considering traffic is heavier during the day, the possibility of making this tight connection would be less likely. This means that anyone at the airport for Cavan and Virginia would be more likely to opt for the 30 Donegal service rather than having to wait at least 30 minutes in Kells for the next 109 that leaves Dublin.

(Most of the 109s from Dublin for Virginia and Cavan during the day, are scheduled to leave Kells 10 minutes before the 109A's are due in Kells on the hour. The 7.30pm, 8.30pm, and 10.30pm 109s from Dublin for Virginia and Cavan are scheduled to leaves Kells five minutes before the 109As are due.)

http://buseireann.ie/pdf/1403523374-109.pdf

http://buseireann.ie/pdf/1403523305-109A.pdf

I would guess the reason that Bus Éireann serves Cavan and Virginia on the 30 Donegal route is because they get enough passengers from both towns to and from Dublin city centre and the airport, throughout the whole day, that it helps to sustain the service. It is the only direct bus route from Cavan and Virginia to Dublin Airport.

CVH24

horseburger wrote: »

There are lots of passengers from Cavan and Virginia that use the 30 Dublin Donegal bus to and from Dublin City Centre and Dublin Airport.

These passengers from Virginia or Cavan going to and from the city centre, many commuting up and down throughout the week, would be more likely to be using this 30 bus service more regularly than those from long distance places like Donegal Town or Ballyshannon, going to and from the airport.

If, for example, those passengers for Virginia and Cavan that used this service - who would likely be using it far more regularly than those going to and from longer distances like Ballyshannon or Donegal Town and the airport - were told to only use the 109 service, I think that would be unfair.

I think that these passengers help sustain the 30 bus service.

I would guess the reason that Bus Éireann serves Cavan and Virginia on the 30 Donegal route is because they get enough passengers from both towns to and from Dublin city centre and the airport, throughout the whole day, that it helps to sustain the service. It is the only direct bus route from Cavan and Virginia to Dublin Airport.

I would strongly disagree with you on a number of fronts, you think that passengers for virginia and cavan to / from being restricted is unfair on the basis that they travel more regularly than those that travel to/ from longer distances.
That is plan crazy, as a company you want higher yield passengers, the longer they travel the more they pay. Thats a feeling of I am better than the people who live in Doneal or Ballyshannon.
They may make the service more sustainable on they trip to cavan nut not the leg from cavan to Donegal. But the Route has another 125 Km to run.

As i said earlier there should be a difference between prices on 109 and 30, with say fares on 30 % higher on 30 from Dublin to Virginia and Cavan.

The reason 30 serves Virginia is that you can not avoid it, Cavan because it is an interchange point for Galway, Belfast, Monaghan and gets alot of passengers on to Enniskillin and Donegal.

So you free it is unfair to get people who are travelling to Virginia and Cavan to get the 109 from Busaras,which is only say 10 minutes slower than 30,But do you feel it is unfair for say passengers to have to miss the bus at the airport as the regulars are on the 30, sorry next bus is in 2 hours and there may be more regulars on the 30 so who knows. So it is unfair to delay passengers 10 minutes as they are regulars than delay tourists and less regular passengers 2 hours, that is twisted logic. The most logical situation is to load the 109 with what it can take and leave space on 30 for people who can only get 30. The greatest number of people are moved to their chosen destination with the least delays possible. and the best use of available resources. Public transport is for all not just regulars and is there to serve a purpose not a chosen few. If public Transport companies especially Bus Eireann did not do that we would have shouts of waste and inefficacy.

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

I would strongly disagree with you on a number of fronts, you think that passengers for virginia and cavan to / from being restricted is unfair on the basis that they travel more regularly than those that travel to/ from longer distances.
That is plan crazy, as a company you want higher yield passengers, the longer they travel the more they pay. Thats a feeling of I am better than the people who live in Doneal or Ballyshannon.
They may make the service more sustainable on they trip to cavan nut not the leg from cavan to Donegal. But the Route has another 125 Km to run.

As i said earlier there should be a difference between prices on 109 and 30, with say fares on 30 % higher on 30 from Dublin to Virginia and Cavan.

The reason 30 serves Virginia is that you can not avoid it, Cavan because it is an interchange point for Galway, Belfast, Monaghan and gets alot of passengers on to Enniskillin and Donegal.

So you free it is unfair to get people who are travelling to Virginia and Cavan to get the 109 from Busaras,which is only say 10 minutes slower than 30,But do you feel it is unfair for say passengers to have to miss the bus at the airport as the regulars are on the 30, sorry next bus is in 2 hours and there may be more regulars on the 30 so who knows. So it is unfair to delay passengers 10 minutes as they are regulars than delay tourists and less regular passengers 2 hours, that is twisted logic. The most logical situation is to load the 109 with what it can take and leave space on 30 for people who can only get 30. The greatest number of people are moved to their chosen destination with the least delays possible. and the best use of available resources. Public transport is for all not just regulars and is there to serve a purpose not a chosen few. If public Transport companies especially Bus Eireann did not do that we would have shouts of waste and inefficacy.

I never said any type of bus user was more important than any other bus user. I did not say that passengers for Cavan and Virginia shouldn't use the 109.

I said that people who use the 30 Dublin Donegal bus from Cavan and Virginia are using it more often than those from Donegal going to and from the airport.

I was suggesting that as a result they would be spending more money using that service throughout the whole week and year, than individual passengers using it a few times a year to and from the airport.

Here is a list of the fares between Dublin and Cavan on the 30 service

16.00 : Adult Single
25.00 : Adult Return
16.00 : Child Return
14.00 : Student Single
18.50 : Student Return
61.50 : Adult 10 Journey
20.00 : Adult Day Return
13.00 : Child Day Return
50.00 : Family Return
57.00 : Student 10 Journey


here is the list of the fares on the 30 from Dublin to Donegal

19.50 : Adult Single
29.50 : Adult Return
18.00 : Child Return
18.00 : Student Single
28.50 : Student Return
25.00 : Adult Day Return
15.50 : Child Day Return
59.00 : Family Return

The fares from Dublin to Cavan are not that much cheaper than the fares from Dublin to Donegal, even though Cavan is almost halfway along the route.

There is the option of an adult 10 day return from Cavan to Dublin which is not listed as a ticket option going from Dublin to Donegal. That indicates that passengers use Bus Éreann's services between Cavan and Dublin more regularly than those going from Dublin to Donegal.

I was suggesting that because of this, and considering the fares are not that much cheaper from Cavan, they are helping to sustain that number 30 service in the same way that Virginia, Kells, Navan and Dunshaughlin passengers help sustain the 109 Cavan-Dublin service, because those passengers along with those from Cavan, use the 109 daily and throughout the week.

It would be wrong if the price was higher on the 30 bus for people going to Cavan or Virginia, considering it isn't that much cheaper than a ticket from Dublin to Donegal.

The number 30 is the only service they can get from the airport without having to either get into Bus Aras - by paying another 6 euros on the 747 Dublin Bus service, 7 euros on the aircoach service or 20 euros by taxi - or otherwise having to take the 109A to Dunshaughlin, Navan or Kells to connect with the 109 Cavan service.

The 109A ends at Kells and then they'd have to wait for the best part of an hour from Kells to get the 109 to Virginia or Cavan.

Other posters have written on the forum recently, discussing how in situations where the 30 bus fills up at the airport, that priority is given to those going to Donegal.

In the case detailed in the discussion below, two passengers for Cavan from the airport were left with the option of having to wait two hours for the next number 30 bus, as priority was given to those going to Donegal, when the bus they had planned to get, arrived at the bus stop and filled up with those going to Donegal.

It indicates that people for Cavan on the 30 bus, are not always taking up seats that Donegal passengers could take.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057321889

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92936913&postcount=12

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92937626&postcount=13

CVH24

You are deeming Cavan and Virginia passengers more important than Donegal passengers as keep referring to them as more regular and they spend more. The logical theory is to move as many people with the least resources necessary.

Cavan and Virginia are within the commuter belt since the celtic tiger era. I would guess not happily for those that must commute that distance, I would guess people would not freely choice to spend so much time in transit. 109 is a commuter route.

My suggestion as regards increased fares on Express way was to act as a disincentive for commuters to use 30 from Busaras as these passengers have other options, but people at the airport do not, and should be on the 109.

Now 109 has more problems than would fit in a book, but short workings of 30 (say as far as cavan) say under a brand of 109x could be brought about that would be something for the NTA to be pushed on.

Also one of the major thing rightly or wrongly that has come to be is Expressway must be looked at financially separate from commuter routes, one must not cross subsidise the other. Therefore commuter tickets should only be used on commuter routes and vice versa. So the NTA must pay the correct monies for the service level they decide for commuter routes. NTA want different livies for commuter hence the new expressway rebrand. This separate is going to be hard for people to get their heads around, cause they just see Bus Eireann, despite the fact they are meant to operate separately, at this moment in time its quite a mess.

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

You are deeming Cavan and Virginia passengers more important than Donegal passengers as keep referring to them as more regular and they spend more. The logical theory is to move as many people with the least resources necessary.

Cavan and Virginia are within the commuter belt since the celtic tiger era. I would guess not happily for those that must commute that distance, I would guess people would not freely choice to spend so much time in transit. 109 is a commuter route.

My suggestion as regards increased fares on Express way was to act as a disincentive for commuters to use 30 from Busaras as these passengers have other options, but people at the airport do not, and should be on the 109.

Now 109 has more problems than would fit in a book, but short workings of 30 (say as far as cavan) say under a brand of 109x could be brought about that would be something for the NTA to be pushed on
.

The 109 does not cover the airport. The 109A serves the airport and it doesn't go on to Cavan or Virginia.

I am not saying that Cavan passengers are more important.

I am suggesting that Bus Éireann must have taken the decision to serve Cavan on the 30 bus route because they get enough passengers using it more regularly, to the city centre and the airport.

As I pointed out, the fares from Dublin to Cavan are not that much cheaper than the fares from Dublin to Donegal.

They wouldn't provide the service to Virginia and Cavan on the 30 bus just for the fun of it. It is obviously of benefit to Bus Éireann to serve both towns, otherwise what reason would they have to serve it?

The link I included for that discussion indicates that Donegal passengers are given priority when the number 30 buses fill to capacity.

CVH24

horseburger wrote: »

The 109 does not cover the airport. The 109A serves the airport and it doesn't go on to Cavan or Virginia.

I said the passengers from busaras to Cavan and Virginia should not be on 30,

I am not saying that Cavan passengers are more important.

Your word was "unfair£ as they travel regular and spend more on it than the occassional traveler from Ballyshannon or Donegal.

I am suggesting that Bus Éireann must have taken the decision to serve Cavan on the 30 bus route because they get enough passengers using it more regularly, to the city centre and the airport.

I already expained why and that was as a interchange point and Virginia can not be avoided.

As I pointed out, the fares from Dublin to Cavan are not that much cheaper than the fares from Dublin to Donegal.

But the fare on 109 is subsidised by the NTA, route 30 is commerical!!

They wouldn't provide the service to Virginia and Cavan on the 30 bus just for the fun of it. It is obviously of benefit to Bus Éireann to serve both towns, otherwise what reason would they have to serve it?

I already expained why and that was as a interchange point and Virginia can not be avoided. It is also the only bus to link cavan and the airport.

The link I included for that discussion indicates that Donegal passengers are given priority when the number 30 buses fill to capacity.

Can you or anyone predict how many will be at the airport for the bus as even if you knew how many were at the airport as the bus left busaras how many will arrive at the stop before the bus reaches the airport.
Also It is simplier to ban them that get an arguement as "i always get this bus" sadly seen it and delayed the bus 5 minutes as passenger insisted she need to get this bus.

CVH24

horseburger wrote: »

The 109 does not cover the airport. The 109A serves the airport and it doesn't go on to Cavan or Virginia.

--I said the passengers from busaras to Cavan and Virginia should not be on 30,

I am not saying that Cavan passengers are more important.

--Your word was "unfair" as they travel regular and spend more on it than the occassional traveler from Ballyshannon or Donegal.

I am suggesting that Bus Éireann must have taken the decision to serve Cavan on the 30 bus route because they get enough passengers using it more regularly, to the city centre and the airport.

--I already expained why and that was as a interchange point and Virginia can not be avoided.

As I pointed out, the fares from Dublin to Cavan are not that much cheaper than the fares from Dublin to Donegal.

--But the fare on 109 is subsidised by the NTA, route 30 is commerical!!

They wouldn't provide the service to Virginia and Cavan on the 30 bus just for the fun of it. It is obviously of benefit to Bus Éireann to serve both towns, otherwise what reason would they have to serve it?

--I already expained why and that was as a interchange point and Virginia can not be avoided. It is also the only bus to link cavan and the airport.

The link I included for that discussion indicates that Donegal passengers are given priority when the number 30 buses fill to capacity.

Can you or anyone predict how many will be at the airport for the bus as even if you knew how many were at the airport as the bus left busaras how many will arrive at the stop before the bus reaches the airport.
Also It is simplier to ban them that get an arguement as "i always get this bus" sadly seen it and delayed the bus 5 minutes as passenger insisted she need to get this bus.

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

Can you or anyone predict how many will be at the airport for the bus as even if you knew how many were at the airport as the bus left busaras how many will arrive at the stop before the bus reaches the airport.
Also It is simplier to ban them that get an arguement as "i always get this bus" sadly seen it and delayed the bus 5 minutes as passenger insisted she need to get this bus.

You said passengers for Cavan and Virginia at the airport should use the 109.

This is what you said:

"My suggestion as regards increased fares on Express way was to act as a disincentive for commuters to use 30 from Busaras as these passengers have other options, but people at the airport do not, and should be on the 109".

The 109 does not stop at the airport.

You made the comment suggesting that because someone is going to Donegal that they would be spending more because they are going a longer distance.

In my reply I suggested that because the fares are not that much cheaper from Dublin to Cavan than they are from Dublin to Donegal, that people from Cavan would be spending more over time, if they use the bus more regularly.

The point is that people for Cavan and Virginia use the 30 service from both Bus Aras and the airport and I don't see how those at Bus Aras can be refused from using the service, or be charged more just because they are getting the bus at Bus Aras.

The link to the discussion that I included, indicates that Cavan passengers do not always inconvenience passengers for Donegal.

You suggested the fare on the 30 bus being 30% more for anyone going to Virginia or Cavan from Bus Aras.

I believe that would be unfair, considering that they would be using it more often. If that fare increase was implemented, they'd be paying a very similar fare to that from Dublin to Donegal.

How could Bus Éireann justify that?

If those passengers were not allowed get the 30 bus at Bus Aras, I don't see how this could be done without a spare bus being available for them at the same time or space always being available on the other 109 services to Cavan.

Bus Éireann states on the 30 bus timetable:

"During busy periods, customers travelling from Busáras to Virginia and Cavan will be requested to use route 109 services where these are departing at the same time as route 30 services".

http://buseireann.ie/pdf/1415719270-030.pdf

It is clear from that sentence that Bus Éireann prioritises the Donegal passengers on the number 30 bus, when the service is very busy.

Cavan and Virginia are both pick up and drop off points on all the 30 bus services to and from Dublin and Donegal, - except the 9pm from Dublin on Sundays and Bank Holidays which does not stop in Virginia but does stop and pick up at Cavan - so how can you say to someone coming from both towns to Dublin on the 30 bus, that they can't get that same service from Bus Aras back to Cavan?

CVH24

okay, time to simplify.

Well Bus leaves busaras with 32 passengers (3 for virginia, 6 for cavan, rest for stops beyond cavan), bus gets to airport and there are 26 passengers for the 30. What do you do??? (

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

okay, time to simplify.

Well Bus leaves busaras with 32 passengers (3 for virginia, 6 for cavan, rest for stops beyond cavan), bus gets to airport and there are 26 passengers for the 30. What do you do??? (

I have indicated that Bus Éireann state clearly that they prioritise the Donegal passengers in so far as they request that people for Cavan and Virginia at Bus Aras take the 109 during busy periods when the 109s leave at the same time.

I have also made reference to the discussion by the two passengers who discussed using the 30 bus to Cavan and about how they had to wait for next bus because the bus for which they were in time, took passengers for Donegal instead of them.

Therefore, the service is not exactly as hellish an experience for Donegal passengers as you are suggesting.

CVH24

horseburger wrote: »

I have indicated that Bus Éireann state clearly that they prioritise the Donegal passengers in so far as they request that people for Cavan and Virginia at Bus Aras take the 109 during busy periods when the 109s leave at the same time.

I have also made reference to the discussion by the two passengers who discussed using the 30 bus to Cavan and about how they had to wait for next bus because the bus for which they were in time, took passengers for Donegal instead of them.

Therefore, the service is not exactly as hellish an experience for Donegal passengers as you are suggesting.

Just answer the above question?

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

Just answer the above question?

Time to simplify, indeed.

You could try answering the same question when it's the Virginia and Cavan passengers inconvenienced at the airport, where people for Donegal are given priority.

You started by speaking of Cavan passengers depriving Donegal passengers of seats.

I responded by including a link that showed that Cavan passengers at the airport get inconvenienced by having to wait for the next service, to accommodate people for Donegal.

How do you suggest accommodating them since they were left in in the same situation as the scenario you describe, of having to wait for the next bus?

LXFlyer

If there are regular problems with loadings on particular Expressway routes then I'd expect Bus Eireann to increase capacity by amending the timetable and perhaps adding an extra departure where necessary.


There is not much else that BE can do in the circumstances quoted above - they can only prioritise it so far.

CVH24

lxflyer wrote: »

If there are regular problems with loadings on particular Expressway routes then I'd expect Bus Eireann to increase capacity by amending the timetable and perhaps adding an extra departure where necessary.


There is not much else that BE can do in the circumstances quoted above - they can only prioritise it so far.

So Horseburger, you did not answer the Question, Lxflyer in the above senario there is no need for an extra departure unless you want to waste money,the bus would be able to cope with the above loading under a particular situation, but someone does not want to admit it.

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

So Horseburger, you did not answer the Question, Lxflyer in the above senario there is no need for an extra departure unless you want to waste money,the bus would be able to cope with the above loading under a particular situation, but someone does not want to admit it.

Bus Éireann accommodate passengers on the various routes by putting on extra buses to meet the numbers waiting at the airport.

They put on extra buses at the airport to accommodate passengers for intermediate towns.

They do this for places like Monaghan Town when the Derry or Letterkenny services are very busy.

You haven't answered my question and have pretty much ignored the various suggestions I have made which might explain why they bring passengers to and from Virginia and Cavan to Dublin city centre and the airport on the 30 bus.

You suggested increasing the ticket fare to Cavan and Virginia by 30%, even though I responded by indicating that the fare to Cavan is not much cheaper than the fare to Donegal even though Cavan is halfway along the route.

How could Bus Éireann implement such a similar ticket price for two towns, located so far apart, that are covered on the same bus service?

What you are asking me would be like if I asked you what you'd do if the bus filled up to near capacity at Bus Aras with passengers for Enniskillen and Derrylin at Bus Aras, and then when it got to the airport there were such an amount of people looking to go to Ballyshannon or Donegal Town that some were left waiting for the next bus.

CVH24

horseburger wrote: »

Bus Éireann accommodate passengers on the various routes by putting on extra buses to meet the numbers waiting at the airport.

They put on extra buses at the airport to accommodate passengers for intermediate towns.

They do this for places like Monaghan Town when the Derry or Letterkenny services are very busy.

You haven't answered my question and have pretty much ignored the various suggestions I have made which might explain why they bring passengers to and from Virginia and Cavan to Dublin city centre and the airport on the 30 bus.

You suggested increasing the ticket fare to Cavan and Virginia by 30%, even though I responded by indicating that the fare to Cavan is not much cheaper than the fare to Donegal even though Cavan is halfway along the route.

How could Bus Éireann implement such a similar ticket price for two towns, located so far apart, that are covered on the same bus service?

What you are asking me would be like if I asked you what you'd do if the bus filled up to near capacity at Bus Aras with passengers for Enniskillen and Derrylin at Bus Aras, and then when it got to the airport there were such an amount of people looking to go to Ballyshannon or Donegal Town that some were left waiting for the next bus.

Well its not like your scenario as if the 9 people were not on the the 30 but on 109, one 30 bus would be needed you suggest 2 buses. so thats three 30 buses you need and i only need two, who pays for the third bus to go one way, where is the bus and driver found at short notice.

By mentioning Monaghan you did not compare like with like as Monaghan has no specific service unlike cavan.

Who sets fares to Cavan, the NTA, they also subsidise the route buy providing the bus and subvention, not given to 30. so just charge everyone the fare to Donegal and get off where you like. Say have green tickets for Expressway and white for PSO, 109 is a PSO.

Buy a ticket in the vending machine to Cavan in Busaras and it has on the top line R109, Buy a ticket to Ballyshannon it has R030.

Why you personally want to be on the 30 Route personally? The timings out of Dublin are the same as 109 and out of cavan also the same as 109, if my memory services me right. Personally insead of looking to be insistant that you deserve to on the 30, you may look at how to improve the 109 as it is a real disaster area for all it towns, not least Cavan, at a guess the only time it is on time is leaving Cavan. I sadly have experience of that route too.

I have personally have no objection to passengers for Virginia and Cavan using 30, only if passengers who have no other way to their destination are not inconvenienced, as people getting to where they want to go means happy people and ones that do not are not generally happy bunnies. It must be remembered a cavan passenger has a degree of chose (not much but a bally shannon passenger has no chose) We all like chose!

If it is a situation that the 30 fills at the airport i would guess that longer passengers are given priority first (ie beyond Cavan) as virginia and cavan passenger can be accommodated on the 109A and a 109 from kells, but that is not ideal. But is a better option than a 2 hour delay.

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

Well its not like your scenario as if the 9 people were not on the the 30 but on 109, one 30 bus would be needed you suggest 2 buses. so thats three 30 buses you need and i only need two, who pays for the third bus to go one way, where is the bus and driver found at short notice.

By mentioning Monaghan you did not compare like with like as Monaghan has no specific service unlike cavan.

Who sets fares to Cavan, the NTA, they also subsidise the route buy providing the bus and subvention, not given to 30. so just charge everyone the fare to Donegal and get off where you like. Say have green tickets for Expressway and white for PSO, 109 is a PSO.

Buy a ticket in the vending machine to Cavan in Busaras and it has on the top line R109, Buy a ticket to Ballyshannon it has R030.

Why you personally want to be on the 30 Route personally? The timings out of Dublin are the same as 109 and out of cavan also the same as 109, if my memory services me right. Personally insead of looking to be insistant that you deserve to on the 30, you may look at how to improve the 109 as it is a real disaster area for all it towns, not least Cavan, at a guess the only time it is on time is leaving Cavan. I sadly have experience of that route too.

I have personally have no objection to passengers for Virginia and Cavan using 30, only if passengers who have no other way to their destination are not inconvenienced, as people getting to where they want to go means happy people and ones that do not are not generally happy bunnies. It must be remembered a cavan passenger has a degree of chose (not much but a bally shannon passenger has no chose) We all like chose!

If it is a situation that the 30 fills at the airport i would guess that longer passengers are given priority first (ie beyond Cavan) as virginia and cavan passenger can be accommodated on the 109A and a 109 from kells, but that is not ideal. But is a better option than a 2 hour delay.

I mentioned Monaghan as an example where they put on an extra bus service at the airport when needed. In your previous message you questioned the previous poster who stated that Bus Éireann puts on extra buses whenever necessary.

You stated "Lxflyer in the above senario there is no need for an extra departure unless you want to waste money", even though you describe a scenario where the 30 bus is so full it can't take all those waiting at the airport for it.

In my reply I gave the example of the extra bus to Monaghan from the airport which filled to capacity of people for Monaghan and people for Letterkenny.

If the bus filled it was hardly a waste of money for the bus company to make that extra service available

This bus that I took recently, left a few minutes after the Derry bus which picked up at the airport and filled with passengers for Derry only.

After the extra bus to Monaghan filled and left the airpoprt, the Letterkenny bus picked up at the airport and both were heading for Monaghan Town so that the people on the extra bus could transfer to the 32 going to Letterkenny.

The timings are not the same between the 30 and 109 services to Virginia and Cavan.

Are you suggesting that everyone who takes the 30 bus gets charged the same ticket fare?

I'm guessing you use that bus to go to and from Donegal. Someone who uses that bus for Cavan could equally argue that perhaps passengers for Donegal should be charged more, since Cavan bus users get off the 30 bus halfway along the route and what Cavan passengers are paying isn't much cheaper than the fare to Donegal.

I don't get what point you are making regarding the ticket you buy saying 109 or 30,

By that logic, you could only go to a specific town on only one of two buses that serve that town, anyone for Monaghan could only use one or the other of the two services that cover Monaghan, the 32 and 33, but not both.

I'm beginning to think that you are deliberately not reading in my replies to you, where I have already emphasised - on a number of occasions - that Bus Éireann has stated clearly that they prioritise Donegal passengers on the 30 route at times when it is very busy, when there is a 109 service to Cavan at the same time.

So it is clear that they accommodate passengers for Donegal.

You don't mind inconveniencing passengers for Cavan by suggesting to them to not take the 30 bus but to then, from the airport - when there are other passengers waiting to get the bus going further than Cavan - take the 109A to Kells and wait an hour in Kells for the next 109, which is more inconvenient than if someone for Donegal had to wait for two hours at the airport because the 109A takes 1 hour 40 minutes to get to Kells from the airport.

Once getting off the 109A in Kells, passengers for Cavan would have to wait for most of the next hour for the 109 to arrive in Kells on the way to Cavan. Then if that bus is delayed coming from Dublin, as it likely will be during the day, their time making the connection in Kells for the 109, would be the best part of three hours, after they leave the airport.

With regard to your comment to the other poster where you stated "the bus would be able to cope with the above loading under a particular situation, but someone does not want to admit it", do you really think increasing the fare from Bus Aras to Cavan on the 30 bus, to discourage them using that bus service, is a suitable suggestion to try and encourage them to just take the 109 from Bus Aras?

I don't think it is a solution. It would just result in the possibility of the 109 buses to Cavan filling quicker and being unable to accommodate everyone wishing to use that service at any given time. They'd then have to wait at Bus Aras for the next Cavan bus an hour later.

CVH24

I can not take you seriously as once again you pick Monaghan, it is now only served by expressway routes from Dublin. Routes 32 and 33, if you wish to pick at a point pick a place that is served by an express and non express service.

As regards the fares the next reply need to talk about NTA!!
But charging different price depending on the service you choose to travel on is nothing new, look at Irish rail.

Try to go to Limerick Junctiun try the 1700 Cork service and the 1725 Limerick service, which on is cheaper and why? Same distance same stations different price, supply and demand is the answer. Hence you use price to influence choice!


As regards the 109A alternative, as i said it is far from ideal but at a guess 109 from dublin will be running late and if the 0750, 30 from airport full you should make cavan by 1100, ahead of next 30 service. as regards extra buses there would have to be a required number to sent an extra, my guess is 20-30 minimum. otherwise a lose maker.

Just on aside note, do you ever need to be careful with money, as if you were paying for extra buses all the time you would be careful as i guess a run to cavan would cost you 500 euro.Hire of bus, diesel, driver, maintenance, Insurance and all the other costs.

CVH24

Sorry as regards train it 1600 and 1625 not 1700 and 1725 my apologies!

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

I can not take you seriously as once again you pick Monaghan, it is now only served by expressway routes from Dublin. Routes 32 and 33, if you wish to pick at a point pick a place that is served by an express and non express service.

As regards the fares the next reply need to talk about NTA!!
But charging different price depending on the service you choose to travel on is nothing new, look at Irish rail.

Try to go to Limerick Junctiun try the 1700 Cork service and the 1725 Limerick service, which on is cheaper and why? Same distance same stations different price, supply and demand is the answer. Hence you use price to influence choice!


As regards the 109A alternative, as i said it is far from ideal but at a guess 109 from dublin will be running late and if the 0750, 30 from airport full you should make cavan by 1100, ahead of next 30 service. as regards extra buses there would have to be a required number to sent an extra, my guess is 20-30 minimum. otherwise a lose maker.

Just on aside note, do you ever need to be careful with money, as if you were paying for extra buses all the time you would be careful as i guess a run to cavan would cost you 500 euro.Hire of bus, diesel, driver, maintenance, Insurance and all the other costs.

I already stated that I used the Monaghan as an example where they put on an extra service to accommodate the numbers at the airport for that town and also Letterkenny. It was better than having those passengers waiting for the next scheduled service to either Derry or Letterkenny.

I did not make any reference to Monaghan being served on a commuter service or expressway service. The point I was making is that they put on an extra service to accommodate with the number of passengers at the airport who were waiting for either the 32 or 33.

I have also seen the Bus Inspectors at the airport arranging extra buses for the Belfast service, where they organised an extra bus for Newry to accommodate the number of passengers at the airport. It worked out well, with both buses leaving the airport around the same time, one full going to Newry and the other going to Belfast also full which also dropped off people at Newry.

That's why I mentioned that Bus Éireann will put on extra coaches when needed.

You wrote earlier suggesting that Cavan passengers, in your opinion were taking up seats that you feel should be reserved for Donegal passengers.

You described a scenario where seats would be empty from Cavan onwards that could have been filled by people at the airport going to Donegal.

I still think, considering the fare from Dublin to Cavan is not much cheaper than the fare from Dublin to Donegal, if they get more regular passengers using the 30 to Cavan throughout the week, then I think it could be argued that the Cavan passengers - that you are suggesting are inconveniencing Donegal passengers at the airport - help keep the service going.

horseburger

Anyway, slightly off topic

I think i'll just listen to some Big Youth and U Roy!:)

CVH24

Any mention of nta, if capacity is an issue I do not believe route 30 needs the support of the lovely passengers of county cavan.
I asked you to compare like with like, a route where expressway and commuter are side by side but again you can not.
Any comment on pricing lead demand?
Of course not, that would be answering a question.
Sure have a look over on ways to to improve the 109, but of course your answer is to though more resources at things and maintain the sweet life in cavan. Never mind logic. I could not be bothered continuing with a troll.
Because you employ no logic and just think how great the passenger's of cavan are to the passengers who are unlucky enough to have pass through cavan. Sure it's thanks to the passengers of cavan they even have a bus service!!!! Have a happy life!!!

horseburger

CVH24 wrote: »

Any mention of nta, if capacity is an issue I do not believe route 30 needs the support of the lovely passengers of county cavan.
I asked you to compare like with like, a route where expressway and commuter are side by side but again you can not.
Any comment on pricing lead demand?
Of course not, that would be answering a question.
Sure have a look over on ways to to improve the 109, but of course your answer is to though more resources at things and maintain the sweet life in cavan. Never mind logic. I could not be bothered continuing with a troll.
Because you employ no logic and just think how great the passenger's of cavan are to the passengers who are unlucky enough to have pass through cavan. Sure it's thanks to the passengers of cavan they even have a bus service!!!! Have a happy life!!!

The fact that Cavan is a drop off and pick up point in both directions on the 30 bus indicates that Bus Éireann feels that it is worthwhile serving there.

You started by arguing that people for Cavan were taking up space that you feel should be reserved for people going further.

You are contradicting yourself now by suggesting that the 30 service need not take people from Bus Aras to Cavan.

Obviously those people from Virginia and Cavan are using the 30 service. If there were so many people from further on using it every day, they would restrict the number of drop off and pick up point stops at Virginia and Cavan throughout the course of its daily services.

Bus Éireann does not serve intermediate towns just for the fun of it. There are towns and villages up and down the country with much less regular services, and some with no bus services at all, so obviously Bus Éireann runs its daily services they way that they do, for a reason.

You accused me of suggesting throwing resources at things and wasting money. That is bull****. I gave two examples of extra buses being used at the airport because of the high numbers of passengers there - one to Monaghan - and one to Newry and in both cases the buses filled to capacity.

What then do you suggest making available for the bus users at Bus Aras for Cavan that you don't want using the 30 bus, considering that if they couldn't use the 30, that would result in the 109s filling quicker from Bus Aras with people left waiting in Dublin for the next bus.

This would then also result in people at the other 109 bus stops on the route from Dublin to Cavan, being less likely to get their usual buses.

You didn't answer that point. You haven't suggested any alternative service for them.

As I said before, you don't mind inconveniencing passengers going to and from Dublin, from intermediate towns that don't concern you, which is typical. Your suggestion to increase the Cavan fare to discourage them from using the service from Bus Aras is an indication of your attitude.

You have ignored the point I made that if passengers at the airport for Cavan do not get the 30 bus and instead take the 109A to Kells, that their journey is a lot longer than the 2 hours you suggested.

You also have ignored the point I made about the option of buying a 10 journey ticket to Dublin from Cavan on the 30 bus. They wouldn't make this option available on that 30 bus service if people from there were not using the service so often.