Do you know where your DOG is? [WARNING: CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGES]

Connemara Farmer

WARNING:

Do NOT open any of these links if you think you will be UPSET at seeing what a dog can do to sheep, and what happens when the dog is caught, they are GRAPHIC.

I've attached the photos as links on purpose so people don't HAVE to see them.

The "Photo via Text" was sent to me this morning, this poor bastard of a lamb was still alive, but put down immediately.

The "Bodies" photo I took myself and shows five dead lambs and the culprit who is also heavily suspected of two other attacks in two different locations in the area this year.

Now I've just received the "Second Photo via Text", they're STILL finding dead and wounded sheep.

There are also sheep dead in sea, savaged and chased into the tide to DROWN.

I said

Hope ye get the bastard that owns the dog

_Brian

I wonder would some of the mods of the pets forum copy the post over there just to reinforce the importance of proper responsible dog control.

Makes me very angry to see this sort of thing !!

Regularly on that forum you'll see owners complaining that their dog has been shot or a farmer has warned that next time the dog will be shot for worrying animals....

Kovu

Ah jesus, that first photo. The poor thing.

I am an avid pet lover but anyone who lets dogs out to roam and cause atrocities like this should be dragged through the courts as an example.

Username John

I said wrote: »

Hope ye get the bastard that owns the dog

+100

Sickening, had dogs attack here before, it would drive you absolutely mad with rage. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Cran

This is the reason I have no 2nd chance policy here, spent half the night after two dogs recently found it very upsetting to have to do it. There are 4 dogs in our house and I just cant understand people who dont have their dog under control, if the house dog is out of sight for 5 minutes she's looked for.....

Username John

_Brian wrote: »

I wonder would some of the mods of the pets forum copy the post over there just to reinforce the importance of proper responsible dog control.

Makes me very angry to see this sort of thing !!

Regularly on that forum you'll see owners complaining that their dog has been shot or a farmer has warned that next time the dog will be shot for worrying animals....

Good idea.

Kovu

Username John wrote: »

Good idea.

I'll send them on a message and take it from there.

knucklehead6

I've recently started back into hiking and trail walks etc and people look at me cock eyed when I tell them I DON'T bring my dogs out with me.

My father grew up on a farm, we spent most summers as kids back on that farm, there is not a chance I'd risk the health of livestock (or my dogs!! ) out hiking.

Dawggone

Settle.
Dog owning bast*ards..... Atrocities....

Very strong and emotive.
A good discussion is rarely achieved with emotive language.

I totally agree with the topic though and always have my dogs kenneled.


It's about lack of respect and ignorance of the nature of dogs.

Sittingpretty

Kovu wrote: »

Ah jesus, that first photo. The poor thing.

I am an avid pet lover but anyone who lets dogs out to roam and cause atrocities like this should be dragged through the courts as an example.

This. I couldn't agree more.

I have an almost 8 year old German Shepherd. I have no doubt she would worry and chase livestock were she to be allowed roam.

She's mostly inside and when outside is in an enclosed yard. She sleeps crated indoors. If she's not with me in the house I panic, I can't imagine just allowing a dog to roam and hoping for the best that it will come home of an evening.

So awful for the animals and the dog in the pics. None of them to blame. Irresponsible pet owners fault. Totally.

Ave Sodalis

What I don't understand is why the dog needs to get shot when it's the owners responsibility...
Let's say on the very very off chance my dog started chasing sheep, I would much rather rehome the dog to a city location. It solves all problems, the sheep are safer and the dog isn't killed for what is essentially a natural thing for a dog to do.

I said

sup_dude wrote: »

What I don't understand is why the dog needs to get shot when it's the owners responsibility...
Let's say on the very very off chance my dog started chasing sheep, I would much rather rehome the dog to a city location. It solves all problems, the sheep are safer and the dog isn't killed for what is essentially a natural thing for a dog to do.

All well and good what do you suggest happens to you for not having control of the dog at all times?

Ave Sodalis

I said wrote: »

All well and good what do you suggest happens to you for not having control of the dog at all times?

Personally, having to get rid of the dog would be traumatic enough. However, fines to the value of the sheep.

Genghis Cant

It's sickening, utterly horrendous.

We really need compulsory microchiping that the registered owner can be held responsible.

Even this won't be enough in all cases but it would be a start.

DBB

sup_dude wrote: »

Personally, having to get rid of the dog would be traumatic enough. However, fines to the value of the sheep.

What do you do when the dog is in the process of ripping your lambs' noses off? Call him over and give him a Bonio?!
I think most farmers, to their credit, will try to spare the dog. But if the dog is right in the middle of the act, I'd have no qualms about the dog having to die there and then, to stop any further damage.
It's one dog or multiple sheep. An easy choice if we're making a call on ending the suffering.
I'm not a farmer btw, and I am a serious dog lover, but Jesus, you've got to draw a line somewhere.
Those photos are deeply, deeply upsetting.

DBB

_Brian wrote: »

I wonder would some of the mods of the pets forum copy the post over there just to reinforce the importance of proper responsible dog control.

Makes me very angry to see this sort of thing !!

Regalwaysly on that forum you'll see owners complaining that their dog has been shot or a farmer has warned that next time the dog will be shot for worrying animals....

I have no problem cross posting this to the Animals and Pets forum, but want to just say in our defence, that the occasional person who posts about how they're in trouble with a local farmer because of their dogs, are almost always one-off posters, never to be heard from again.
I can assure you that everyone who uses our forum with even vague regularity will be horrified by what's happened these sheep, and are really not the type of people who let their dogs out to bother anyone.
That said, of course the more the word is spread, the better, and if another bloodbath can be avoided because of it, I'm all on for it.
Will link it now.
Thanks folks.

Username John

sup_dude wrote: »

What I don't understand is why the dog needs to get shot when it's the owners responsibility...
Let's say on the very very off chance my dog started chasing sheep, I would much rather rehome the dog to a city location. It solves all problems, the sheep are safer and the dog isn't killed for what is essentially a natural thing for a dog to do.

You are right to say it is / was the owners responsibility, they failed in their responsibilities, the dog is now a danger to livestock, so it should be put down.

Moving the problem along to where the risk is lesser is not an acceptable solution.

Genghis Cant

sup_dude wrote: »

What I don't understand is why the dog needs to get shot when it's the owners responsibility....

The dog needs to be shot because it's in the act of slaughtering someones livestock, the longer it goes on the more suffering and loss to the animals and farmer.
As gruesome as the pictures are, they don't begin to explain the loss and ruin that's caused here.

Ave Sodalis

DBB wrote: »

What do you do when the dog is in the process of ripping your lambs' noses off? Call him over and give him a Bonio?!
I think most farmers, to their credit, will try to spare the dog. But if the dog is right in the middle of the act, I'd have no qualms about the dog having to die there and then, to stop any further damage.
It's one dog or multiple sheep. An easy choice if we're making a call on ending the suffering.
I'm not a farmer btw, and I am a serious dog lover, but Jesus, you've got to draw a line somewhere.
Those photos are deeply, deeply upsetting.

Oh yeah, I'm not talking about that, that's understandable. I mean if the dog is already running or has gone and the farmer goes looking for it.

To the other two posters, I was saying why not allow the dog to be rehomed, to a location without livestock. Not that the owner keep the dog and having nothing but fines. I dont see how that's not a solution when the dog is no longer a threat.

thierry14

Sittingpretty wrote: »

This. I couldn't agree more.

I have an almost 8 year old German Shepherd. I have no doubt she would worry and chase livestock were she to be allowed roam.

She's mostly inside and when outside is in an enclosed yard. She sleeps crated indoors. If she's not with me in the house I panic, I can't imagine just allowing a dog to roam and hoping for the best that it will come home of an evening.

So awful for the animals and the dog in the pics. None of them to blame. Irresponsible pet owners fault. Totally.

Agree

Absolutely hate seeing dogs roaming free without owners in site.

It should be banned completely with huge fines for owners and dog's put down if caught more than once.

Drives me crazy when owners think it's ok for there small westie's, terrier's etc to be free to roam just because they are small.

Just last week I saw 3 little westie type dogs attack a labrador being walked by a woman in her 50's.

I had to get out of my car to help her keep them away, luckily the labrador was a quiet a dog and didn't pull the women to the floor to get at the little dogs.

I was secretly hoping the labrador did serious damage to one of them to teach them a lesson, but it's not the dogs fault, it's the owners, I was wrong to think like that.

bb12

sup_dude wrote: »

Oh yeah, I'm not talking about that, that's understandable. I mean if the dog is already running or has gone and the farmer goes looking for it.

To the other two posters, I was saying why not allow the dog to be rehomed, to a location without livestock. Not that the owner keep the dog and having nothing but fines. I dont see how that's not a solution when the dog is no longer a threat.

in my experience there have been many occasions where a dog owner has been warned that their dog was out roaming, given a second chance and they still didn't stop the problem. so now dog owners have actually taught us to have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to roaming dogs. and it's hard because we're dog lovers and solely blame the dog owners so it's unfortunate that they dog has to suffer because of its stupid owner. but it's our responsibility to our livestock to protect them at all costs.

uck51js9zml2yt

sup_dude wrote: »

Oh yeah, I'm not talking about that, that's understandable. I mean if the dog is already running or has gone and the farmer goes looking for it.

To the other two posters, I was saying why not allow the dog to be rehomed, to a location without livestock. Not that the owner keep the dog and having nothing but fines. I dont see how that's not a solution when the dog is no longer a threat.

Once it has tasted blood.. It's dangerous.
The other alternative is to spare the dog and shoot the owner.

My brother had a German Shepherd which ran away from a fly, but when it chased his sheep to play with them he got a gun and put her down himself.

Miname

Unfortunately I'm one of those pet owners. I've a guard dog that snapped its shackle. Killed two ewes by the time someone got to him. We called vet and paid all expenses and the owner wouldn't take money but we knew he was short silage so dropped over enough

DBB

Damien Clean Boy wrote: »

Once it has tasted blood.. It's dangerous.
The other alternative is to spare the dog and shoot the owner.

Whilst I'd agree that once a dog has chased and/or killed sheep (for many dogs, the chase is far more rewarding than the kill) it is now a liability to have around sheep or any livestock, it does not mean the dog suddenly becomes dangerous to anything but livestock.
Rehoming a livestock chaser that has no history of aggression towards humans to a city home is an acceptable compromise often given by district court judges.

Zoo4m8

Thanks Con for posting these photos, if it makes even one dog owner think about their responsibilities then it's worth it..
Over many years I have seen this and far worse so often, I get seriously upset and angry so I'm not going to comment further....for the moment..

Cattlepen

sup_dude wrote: »

What I don't understand is why the dog needs to get shot when it's the owners responsibility...
Let's say on the very very off chance my dog started chasing sheep, I would much rather rehome the dog to a city location. It solves all problems, the sheep are safer and the dog isn't killed for what is essentially a natural thing for a dog to do.

What you don't understand is that all dogs have a very primal instinct to hunt prey and especially in a pack. Rehomethe dog and then maybe a child in the city can have its face taken off?? Then where do we rehome this "pet". When they get a taste for the hunt it will never leave them. Putting them down is the humane thing to do

SeventySix

DBB wrote: »

Whilst I'd agree that once a dog has chased and/or killed sheep (for many dogs, the chase is far more rewarding than the kill) it is now a liability to have around sheep or any livestock, it does not mean the dog suddenly becomes dangerous to anything but livestock.
Rehoming a livestock chaser that has no history of aggression towards humans to a city home is an acceptable compromise often given by district court judges.

How does that work? Who keeps the dog while they are waiting to be re-homed? Is anyone going to take a dog from the pound that is there because they killed livestock, a country dog that would probably need extensive retraining? How happy would a dog that had been allowed to roam the countryside be in the city? It just doesn't seem feasible in most cases.

onyerbikepat

In reality how far away is a dog like that, from attcking a small child. You have to wonder.

Ranchu

onyerbikepat wrote: »

In reality how far away is a dog like that, from attcking a small child. You have to wonder.

I'd spend my time wondering about something else if I was you.

Dog owners should be made keep dogs on leads at all times unless they are in a designated area. People will always overestimate how much control they have on an off lead dog.

doubter

DBB wrote: »

Whilst I'd agree that once a dog has chased and/or killed sheep (for many dogs, the chase is far more rewarding than the kill) it is now a liability to have around sheep or any livestock, it does not mean the dog suddenly becomes dangerous to anything but livestock.
Rehoming a livestock chaser that has no history of aggression towards humans to a city home is an acceptable compromise often given by district court judges.

+1. I own 2 sled dogs which WILL go after sheep. They never even get into smelling vicinity of them,. but if they were to get to them and worry them (again that is absolutely impossible in my case) I would fight high and low to pay a fine & and reimburse any and all losses to the farmer (including vet costs etc ) and re-home the dogs to a non livestock environment.

_Brian

sup_dude wrote: »

I was saying why not allow the dog to be rehomed, to a location without livestock..

Where in Ireland will a dog be re-homed that it won't have access to livestock? Other than in the center of a few major urban areas a dog will make its way to livestock in 20-30 minutes when in the mood to do so.

Dogs worrying or harming livestock have one fate, thankfully the law is constructed in such a manner that farmers can act without permission on this offence.

SeventySix

doubter wrote: »

+1. I own 2 sled dogs which WILL go after sheep. They never even get into smelling vicinity of them,. but if they were to get to them and worry them (again that is absolutely impossible in my case) I would fight high and low to pay a fine & and reimburse any and all losses to the farmer (including vet costs etc ) and re-home the dogs to a non livestock environment.

So would you (in your hypothetical scenario you are an irresponsible owner whos dogs killed sheep) get to keep the dogs while you are waiting to find a new home for them? If not where would they go and would you have access? Whats to stop you giving them to a friend for a couple of nights and then taking them back? If they go to the pound, with the stigma that they have killed other animals, who is going to take them? Do you think this would work?

doubter

SeventySix wrote: »

So would you (in your hypothetical scenario you are an irresponsible owner whos dogs killed sheep) get to keep the dogs while you are waiting to find a new home for them? If not where would they go and would you have access? Whats to stop you giving them to a friend for a couple of nights and then taking them back? If they go to the pound, with the stigma that they have killed other animals, who is going to take them? Do you think this would work?

Obviously, the dog in question needs to be held in a kennel environment waiting for rehoming. Sign over to a rescue.A judge can make the call.
rescues often enough will not state has killed life stock, but will state ' do not allow near life stock' and will be vigilant not to rehome the animal in question to such an area. With breeds like sled dogs, the fact that they will chase sheep is a given, it's in their nature, more than any other breed. i have a german shepherd as well who runs a mile if she sees a sheep. There are ways to do this without having to resort to more death.
Whilst i totally agree to this particular case that the dog was shot as caught in the act and it was not possible to do anything else ( i am totally in support to any person NOT wanting to approach a large dog on a killing spree) I feel where it's a case that it has already happened and the offending animal is gone, other routes need to be explored.

northdub14

On the few occasions that I had trouble with dogs worrying sheep which thankfully haven't been to serious but could have done without it. 1. neighbours dog mauled a lamb managed to catch the dog, brought it back to the owner told her I was going to get it put down, she asked if she got the dog rehomed to the city would I leave him, I agreed, never seen the dog since. another occasion neighbours dog kept chasing the sheep without biting them but sheep were getting near lambing, warned him ten times to lock up the dog but kept coming back, eleventh time seen the dog after the sheep again in the field, met him coming near the gate with the musket so that ended that.. owner gave me shocking abuse over shooting the dog, some people don't care at all..

doubter

northdub14 wrote: »

On the few occasions that I had trouble with dogs worrying sheep which thankfully haven't been to serious but could have done without it. 1. neighbours dog mauled a lamb managed to catch the dog, brought it back to the owner told her I was going to get it put down, she asked if she got the dog rehomed to the city would I leave him, I agreed, never seen the dog since. another occasion neighbours dog kept chasing the sheep without biting them but sheep were getting near lambing, warned him ten times to lock up the dog but kept coming back, eleventh time seen the dog after the sheep again in the field, met him coming near the gate with the musket so that ended that.. owner gave me shocking abuse over shooting the dog, some people don't care at all..

some people....:mad:

Nody

Cattlepen wrote: »

What you don't understand is that all dogs have a very primal instinct to hunt prey and especially in a pack. Rehomethe dog and then maybe a child in the city can have its face taken off?? Then where do we rehome this "pet". When they get a taste for the hunt it will never leave them. Putting them down is the humane thing to do

Please stop with the hyperbole. First of all the pack theory has been proven wrong over a decade now and the original professor who created it has said it is incorrect (same goes for Alpha dog theories and punishment used as a training tool (i.e. pushing their nose into their poop, strangle collars, hitting their nose etc.)).

Secondly there's no "taste for the hunt"; all dogs are dogs which means they are bred to hunt as part of their genes. The level of drive varies with the dog and breed (i.e. a Husky is going to have a higher prey drive then a Shih Tzu but they will both hunt if the circumstances are right for it) but it's in all dogs.

Third the number of cases of dogs attacking humans (or babies as you used in this case for additional drama) are in 99.9% of the cases due to poor human awareness. No dog (or other animal) should ever be left alone with a baby/child and if you read up on dog attacks they usually have one thing in common, a child was left alone with one or more dogs. A baby (or child) can't read the dog's stress reactions (and if you're a dog owner you need to learn them and know them) and hence keep on running towards the dog etc. even when it's doing it's best to "warn off" the intruder. This is the point when you'll have a dog snap and possibly bite someone because they been pushed (mentally) into a corner and it lashes out (add in a dose of poor socialization to ensure that the dog is more likely to be stressed in most cases).

So to summarize; there's no issue with allocate a dog that's been chasing to the city if it's done in an appropriate way. This does not mean putting it on a add in the Dublin times but after assessment by an appropriately trained dog therapist that can judge it's temperament and advise the future, experienced, family on what to expect and how to deal with any possible issues (usually lack of socialization as a pup which is the best way to ensure a dog is scarred for life).

DBB

SeventySix wrote: »

How does that work? Who keeps the dog while they are waiting to be re-homed? Is anyone going to take a dog from the pound that is there because they killed livestock, a country dog that would probably need extensive retraining? How happy would a dog that had been allowed to roam the countryside be in the city? It just doesn't seem feasible in most cases.

Before I answer this seventysix, can I just address this perception that dogs who kill sheep are now automatically dangerous to humans. There is no link. None whatsoever. The only situations that comes to mind where a dog's aggression towards other animals is linked to the sudden appearance of aggression towards people is where the dog is suffering from a medical condition that has caused a substantial behavioural change.
They may be hunters, but historically any hunting dog that was aggressive to humans was removed from the population, never to spread its seed. I know the horror and devastation caused by dogs to livestock, but let's not lose the run of ourselves altogether!

Now, to address the quoted point.
Dogs that have chased/killed stock and are to be rehomed should not end up in a county pound. End of. They don't have enough control on where the dog ends up. However, rescue groups often take in livestock chasers, and either keep them in kennels, or in foster homes, until they have found a suitable home with people who understand the problem, in the city. The home is also deemed suitable precisely because the new owners are prepared to do any training. Remember that most livestock chasers are pet dogs, and are used to being pet dogs... The retraining/used to roaming argument doesn't apply to any huge extent to them. The dog in this awful case, a Rottweiler or Rottie cross, may have been either a pet or a guard dog, but not a working farm dog.
I got one of my dogs directly from her original owner because the dog had got out and been seen in the same field as sheep... She wasn't chasing them, but was labelled nonetheless. She is, quite frankly, the most beautiful, gentle, fantastic dog I'll ever own. I don't know of any way that a person could provoke her to bite them. She is also afraid of sheep and cattle. But if the option of appropriate rehoming wasn't given, she'd be dead now, and that would be a crying shame.
There are many dogs just like her, rehomed for the same reasons. I know this, because amongst my many doggy activities, I rehome dogs too.
It's no big deal, this process happens to tens of thousands of unwanted dogs every year in Ireland, livestock chasers or not.
I also know several owners whose dogs were blamed for killing stock, and under ferocious pressure had their dogs euthanased, only for it to be proven beyond doubt at a later date that it wasn't their dog at all.
I hope this answers your questions

Genghis Cant

Cattlepen wrote: »

What you don't understand is that all dogs have a very primal instinct to hunt prey and especially in a pack.

I've little doubt you're right Cattlepen.

Nody wrote: »

Please stop with the hyperbole. First of all the pack theory has been proven wrong over a decade now and the original professor who created it has said it is incorrect (same goes for Alpha dog theories and punishment used as a training tool (i.e. pushing their nose into their poop, strangle collars, hitting their nose etc.))

Mere mention of the word "pack" does not equal "pack theory".
You're just jumping on the band wagon, hanging around the animals and pets forum doesn't make you an expert. There's one expert over there, and it aint you.

Ave Sodalis

Genghis Cant wrote: »

You're just jumping on the band wagon, hanging around the animals and pets forum doesn't make you an expert. There's one expert over there, and it aint you.

Nody

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Mere mention of the word "pack" does not equal "pack theory".
You're just jumping on the band wagon, hanging around the animals and pets forum doesn't make you an expert. There's one expert over there, and it aint you.

No, I'm clarifying a post that's making claims with out any base in reality. Said claims also have a very common tendency to come with claims of pack theory to justify the claim and alpha theories and showing the dog who's the boss in how to deal with it...

As for being an expert; feel free to highlight were in the post I made such a claim? All the information I shared is basic common knowledge that in no way require expert knowledge. Now if you asked me to analyze an individual dog's behavior and assign a training plan for it's owner that's approaching expert level of knowledge beyond the basic steps and if you asked me to define the breed standards and suggest a suitable sire and ways to look after the pups you'd be in expert territory with out question.

Ave Sodalis

Nody wrote: »

No, I'm clarifying a post that's making claims with out any base in reality. Said claims also have a very common tendency to come with claims of pack theory to justify the claim and alpha theories and showing the dog who's the boss in how to deal with it...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787810001371
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787807001761
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

greysides

This is an emotive topic and it's hard to avoid the gut reaction those pictures elicit but it is also a subject with serious psychological, animal welfare and financial considerations.

It will be a better and more useful discussion if we can ensure all reasonable views can be heard and discussed objectively.

Farmer Pudsey

Cons Photos bring home the damage that a dog can do. This was only one dog yet we have four dead sheep and more injured. The loss for the farmer will not stop there. Some of these ewe's will have been in lamb and will abort. They more than likly will survive but it is unlikly they will breed this season.

If it had been after christmas you would have 4-5 the amount maybe killed with stress. This dog may was on his own but had picked up the habit of hunting. Con posted that there was other incidents locally. If this dog had not be caught he would have kept at it and may well have started to bring other dogs with him.

This can lead to incidents where there is massive carnage where multipes of what we see here happen. As well you have the loss to stress and serious abortion rate with in the flock or flocks.

It is this that give sheep farmers a hard edge when dealing with such situtations. Few if any want to go down this road however thsi idea about rehoming while sucessfull in some cases may lead to issue where dogs are still with in access of livestock. Most of these dogs are actuall quite peacful around people. However if they pick up the habbit of chasing it is virtually impossible to stop it.

As another poster stated there are few city's in Ireland that are big enough for dogs not to have access to countryside within a 1-2 mile journey. This is nothing to these dogs. The worst of this is that they may bring 3-4 with them next time.

rangler1

Had a lambing from hell a few years ago, it was down to one dog, had my suspicions but couldn't get him in the act, gave the owner a few warnings, got the old 'my dogs always at the back door' spoof....finally caught him in the act, insisted on the dog being put down and did get some compo.

AntrimGlens

Nody wrote: »

Please stop with the hyperbole. First of all the pack theory has been proven wrong over a decade now and the original professor who created it has said it is incorrect

I'll have to interject with this point as someone who has also suffered at the hands of dogs worrying my sheep and also one of my dogs worrying a neighbours sheep. The pack theory is a reality that I have witnessed when my bitch came into heat and took off to visit a neighbours dog for a bit of lovin and ended up with two ewes dead as a result of chasing them round the field and the ewes dying of exhaustion. The same time when my own sheep were worried it was the result of a bitch that was in heat took up with another farmers dog and the pair of them took into a field of sheep - result several dead sheep. These were working collie bitches that would work sheep all day long without as much as a snap at a ewe, but the minute they came into heat and meeting the dog the pack theory very much came into play. The bitch that worried my sheep was neutered and has never had cause to worry sheep since, whether or not it was partly due to hormones or not but I'm afraid the pack theory is real in my eyes.

doubter

AntrimGlens wrote: »

I'll have to interject with this point as someone who has also suffered at the hands of dogs worrying my sheep and also one of my dogs worrying a neighbours sheep. The pack theory is a reality that I have witnessed when my bitch came into heat and took off to visit a neighbours dog for a bit of lovin and ended up with two ewes dead as a result of chasing them round the field and the ewes dying of exhaustion. The same time when my own sheep were worried it was the result of a bitch that was in heat took up with another farmers dog and the pair of them took into a field of sheep - result several dead sheep. These were working collie bitches that would work sheep all day long without as much as a snap at a ewe, but the minute they came into heat and meeting the dog the pack theory very much came into play. The bitch that worried my sheep was neutered and has never had cause to worry sheep since, whether or not it was partly due to hormones or not but I'm afraid the pack theory is real in my eyes.

The pack theory- as in dogs will always be bolder in a pack- i agree.It's the same with young humans. A female coming into heat and playing the 'mating game' which is what they were actually doing (playing chase is part of that and the sheep just added value to it) is a totally different ball game. Moral of the story? Spay and neuter your dogs. Sheep safe. Dog save.

Genghis Cant

Nody wrote: »

No, I'm clarifying a post that's making claims with out any base in reality. Said claims also have a very common tendency to come with claims of pack theory to justify the claim and alpha theories and showing the dog who's the boss in how to deal with it...

As for being an expert;....

I was being a bit of a smartarse with the expert thing. Don't mind me.

You're still mixing up "pack theory" as we know it, with a couple of dogs in a "pack" chasing sheep.

Tokyo

Mod Note:

Guys, I realise that this is an emotive topic, but please, argue the post, not the poster.

DBB

Nody wrote: »

First of all the pack theory has been proven wrong over a decade now and the original professor who created it has said it is incorrect (same goes for Alpha dog theories and punishment used as a training tool (i.e. pushing their nose into their poop, strangle collars, hitting their nose etc.)).

Nody wrote: »

Said claims also have a very common tendency to come with claims of pack theory to justify the claim and alpha theories and showing the dog who's the boss in how to deal with it...

sup_dude wrote: »

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787810001371
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787807001761
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm

I'll have to interject with this point as someone who has also suffered at the hands of dogs worrying my sheep and also one of my dogs worrying a neighbours sheep. The pack theory is a reality that I have witnessed when my bitch came into heat and took off to visit a neighbours dog for a bit of lovin and ended up with two ewes dead as a result of chasing them round the field and the ewes dying of exhaustion

Lads, if I may interject here because there is HUGE confusion going on due to terms being intermingled.
I'm sorry if this brings the thread off-topic a little but I think it needs to be cleared up.
This whole "pack" debate you're all getting into...
When dogs go hunting, and if they do so in groups of two or more, it is fair and common parlance to call them a "pack". Nothing wrong with that. When a pack of dogs gets together, there is without doubt an influence of one over the other, driving each other on, and two dogs or more can most certainly cause substantially more damage than one.
That said, the stats from the UK indicate that most sheep-worrying/killing incidents are carried out by single dogs, which surprised me, but there you go.
So, that's the context under which I am fully sure that the people on this good forum are referring to dogs, using the word "pack" purely to describe a group of dogs.

Which is nothing to do with "pack theory", an outdated concept that dogs live within a dominance hierarchy with one dog being "pack leader" and all others following his will, humans included .

In short, someone used the word "pack" to accurately describe a group of dogs around livestock, but it was picked up wrong, interpreted as that poster insinuating that dogs attack sheep because they're adhering to some social hierarchy they (don't) have.

So, on that note, can we put the whole "pack" debate to bed please?! Yiz are arguing about two entirely different things

_Brian

I've always been told about dogs and once they taste blood there's no stopping them so Shooting is the only answer. Maybe this is true maybe it's not.

But, farmers shooting dogs is a very strong message to owners to keep control on their pets and I fully support it. It punishes the owners sending a message to the wider dog owning community that zero tolerance will be shown. If only financial loss was what owners faced I doubt it would be as effective. Yes you've had your pet brutally taken from you, shot and killed outright if lucky with the first shot.
But the same owners should think of the traumatised or killed sheep and the death they suffered. And of the farm family who's livelihood has been affected, who was left with the job of clearing up the mess as shown in the photos Con posted. The stress suffered by a farmer having animals butchered.

Shooting dogs may be brutal, but it's effective on many levels.