Repurpose room

Lau2976

I have been renting in the same place for about 8 months now. It's two bedrooms but one is completely empty (no furniture at all) and has been used as storage. I recently placed my easel and work materials in there as I am an artist who works from home. My LL is claiming this breaches my lease as I am repurposing the room. I have not moved anything (there was nothing there to move!), have not damaged anything and have no permanent fixtures anywhere

Is he right? My lease states that I can't remove his furniture or redecorate a room with permission but I have done neither?

Michael D Not Higgins

He had no issue with using the room as storage (technically repurposed), what would happen if you got a small campbed and put it in the corner? Back to being a bedroom, which just happens to have some other stuff in it.

In all honesty, he's worried you're going to get paint or something all over the room if it's becoming your studio. Have a word with him about his fears, you could come to some agreement, an additional security deposit, for example.

o1s1n

How did he find out in the first place?

Mrs OBumble

More importantly, what does your lease say about working from home? I've seen at least one which explicitly forbids it.

Gatling

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

More importantly, what does your lease say about working from home? I've seen at least one which explicitly forbids it.

A bit odd how would you even police it ,

o1s1n

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

More importantly, what does your lease say about working from home? I've seen at least one which explicitly forbids it.

It might fall under 'running a business from home' which when you think about it, in the landlord eyes might increase footfall into the apartment, more noise etc.

Still, I'd be interested in knowing how the landlord became aware? Seems like an odd thing for him to find out. How is he to know it's not just hobby painting?

Michael D Not Higgins

o1s1n wrote: »

How did he find out in the first place?

Seriously? Some landlords do routine inspections and look after their properties. Walking by the bedroom, easel set up, landlord instantly thinks paint all over the gaff.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

More importantly, what does your lease say about working from home? I've seen at least one which explicitly forbids it.

I've seen ones that forbid business taking place. The OP is not running a gallery from their home. I agree there's a fine line here, but if I'm checking my emails at home does that mean I've breached my lease? How about if I spend a whole day working from home?

Presumably the OP's business actually takes place outside the apartment.

Mrs OBumble

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Presumably the OP's business actually takes place outside the apartment.

I guess that depends on what the OP is painting pictures of. In the LL's eyes, using a bedroom for this purpose may also raise questions about whether the models have clothes on during a sitting, and what other activities may be carried out before and afterwards.

(OP - I have no idea what you paint. Just saying it how a LL might see it.)

Gatling

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I guess that depends on what the OP is painting pictures of. In the LL's eyes, using a bedroom for this purpose may also raise questions about whether the models have clothes on during a sitting, and what other activities may be carried out before and afterwards.

(OP - I have no idea what you paint. Just saying it how a LL might see it.)

No nudity clause might help

Arbiter of Good Taste

o1s1n wrote: »

It might fall under 'running a business from home' which when you think about it, in the landlord eyes might increase footfall into the apartment, more noise etc.

Still, I'd be interested in knowing how the landlord became aware? Seems like an odd thing for him to find out. How is he to know it's not just hobby painting?

I presume running a business from home - as opposed to an employee working from home with their lap top once in a while - will impact the landlord's insurance. If that is the case, apart from the risk of paint damage, I wouldn't be happy with it as a landlord myself.

o1s1n

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Seriously? Some landlords do routine inspections and look after their properties. Walking by the bedroom, easel set up, landlord instantly thinks paint all over the gaff.

Yes, 'seriously' - in all my time renting, no landlord has ever asked if they can inspect the place during tenancy.

Even if he did come by for an inspection, why would he assume it's a business? Most people would paint at home as a hobby.

Unless he objects to the OP painting at home in the spare room completely and it's nothing to do with 'working from home'?

Basically I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the objection, is he worried about the spare room being used as a painting studio (damage being the concern) or if he has issue with a business running from home (so footfall, noise generation)

If it's the second one it would have been easily for the OP to say it's just his hobby room.

GarIT

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I guess that depends on what the OP is painting pictures of. In the LL's eyes, using a bedroom for this purpose may also raise questions about whether the models have clothes on during a sitting, and what other activities may be carried out before and afterwards.

(OP - I have no idea what you paint. Just saying it how a LL might see it.)

Headlines tomorrow. Tenant found to be naked and having sex in rented apartment. Shocker

drumswan

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I guess that depends on what the OP is painting pictures of. In the LL's eyes, using a bedroom for this purpose may also raise questions about whether the models have clothes on during a sitting, and what other activities may be carried out before and afterwards.

Wtf are you ****eing on about?

Triceratops Ballet

The OP stated that she is an artist who works from home, so she was already painting at home before this became an issue. I assume that this painting was taking place previously in the kitchen or living room and now it is taking place in the empty bedroom.

The question is about the use of an empty room, and I would see no reason why the LL should have a problem with the op painting in a room that has no furniture in it. Is a bedroom still a bedroom if it has no bed? if not how can it be being re-purposed? Imo painting in this empty room has to be easier on wear and tear than if she was painting in a furnished room like the living room.

tenifan

He might have visions of his room being covered with splashes of paint. Or he might not like the idea you're running a business from home..
Or alternatively, he might want to hike the rent and is looking for an excuse to terminate your lease early.
Who knows?

Michael D Not Higgins

I have visions of Brian from Spaced.

foggy_lad

just waiting for a post by a worried landlord who thinks his tenant is a good artist but is worried she might cut off her ear in his spare room now she has made it her studio.

drumswan

"Dear Landlord, I know Im paying you twelve thousand quid a year for a lease on this property but do you mind if I paint a picture?"

The mind boggles.

Michael D Not Higgins

o1s1n wrote: »

Yes, 'seriously' - in all my time renting, no landlord has ever asked if they can inspect the place during tenancy.

Even if he did come by for an inspection, why would he assume it's a business? Most people would paint at home as a hobby.

Unless he objects to the OP painting at home in the spare room completely and it's nothing to do with 'working from home'?

Basically I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the objection, is he worried about the spare room being used as a painting studio (damage being the concern) or if he has issue with a business running from home (so footfall, noise generation)

If it's the second one it would have been easily for the OP to say it's just his hobby room.

Some landlords do inspections, and he is likely to know that his tenant is an artist, hence the connection. Or the OP may have said they're doing their painting there now.

I agree that the fears of the landlord do determine what course of action should be taken. In my own mind, I'd say he's worried about paint damage. As I said it's unlikely the OP has a gallery being run from the place.

Michael D Not Higgins

drumswan wrote: »

"Dear Landlord, I know Im paying you twelve thousand quid a year for a lease on this property but do you mind if I paint a picture?"

The mind boggles.

"Dear Landlord, I know I'm paying a fraction of the cost of your asset in order to use it for my own purpose, but do you mind if I do something that could case more damage than the security deposit covers when I have no intention to pay for it?"

Two can play at that game. I've already advised that the OP should suggest a deposit increase to cover potential issues from the painting. It's hardly just one picture either, if it's the OP's main job it could be 8-10 hours a day of potential damage from paint, thinners, etc.

drumswan

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

"Dear Landlord, I know I'm paying a fraction of the cost of your asset in order to use it for my own purpose, but do you mind if I do something that could case more damage than the security deposit covers when I have no intention to pay for it?"

Two can play at that game. I've already advised that the OP should suggest a deposit increase to cover potential issues from the painting. It's hardly just one picture either, if it's the OP's main job it could be 8-10 hours a day of potential damage from paint, thinners, etc.

Its none of a landlords business if a tenant wants to set up an easel and paint pictures, in any room. The kitchen, the bathroom, the attic, wherever.

If you dont want someone doing something perfectly normal in your property, dont lease it to someone else.

Only in Ireland have I encountered this bizarre idea that a landlord is like your daddy and can drop by and tell you not to be oil painting in case you splash his carpet.

Its very possible that the landlord is looking for an angle to terminate the lease and take advantage of rising rents. I would not advise handing over a further security deposit given the bizarre behaviour from him already, he sounds like the cowboy type.

Michael D Not Higgins

drumswan wrote: »

Its none of a landlords business if a tenant wants to set up an easel and paint pictures, in any room. The kitchen, the bathroom, the attic, wherever.

If you dont want someone doing something perfectly normal in your property, dont lease it to someone else.

Only in Ireland have I encountered this bizarre idea that a landlord is like your daddy and can drop by and tell you not to be oil painting in case you splash his carpet.

Its very possible that the landlord is looking for an angle to terminate the lease and take advantage of rising rents. I would not advise handing over a further security deposit given the bizarre behaviour from him already, he sounds like the cowboy type.

It's quite possibly he is looking to take advantage, but there's a difference between someone doing the odd bit of painting and someone whose full time job is painting taking place in the apartment.

One thing to take into account is RTA 2005 3(2)(a) which says the Act doesn't apply to places used for business.

“business” means any trade, profession or business, whether or not it is carried on for gain or reward, any activity for providing cultural, charitable, educational, social or sporting services, and also the public service and the carrying out by an authority being the council of a county, the corporation of a county or other borough, the council of an urban district, the commissioners of a town, a health board under the Health Act, 1970 , or a harbour authority under the Harbours Act, 1946 , of any of their functions;

I'm not claiming this is the case here, it may not be and I'm not a lawyer so I can't interpret the law's intention or precedents, but if I were a landlord then there two potential problems here that I wouldn't be happy with.

drumswan

The landlord is not objecting to the tenant working from home, he is objecting to the OP 're-purposing the room'.

OP could simply paint in another room.

tenifan

drumswan wrote: »

The landlord is not objecting to the tenant working from home, he is objecting to the OP 're-purposing the room'.

OP could simply paint in another room.

Michael D Not Higgins

drumswan wrote: »

The landlord is not objecting to the tenant working from home, he is objecting to the OP 're-purposing the room'.

OP could simply paint in another room.

But is the objection 'repurposing the room for business use'?

GarIT

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

But is the objection 'repurposing the room for business use'?

From what I can gather from the OP, no.

Michael D Not Higgins

If the landlord has an issue with just that room then move the stuff and say 'no harm, no foul'.

Gatling

So op is renting a two bed /apartment or house paying his/her rent and the landlord is taking issue over hobby equipment ,
Don't know whats worse the obvious breach of privacies or the attitudes the op has committed a major foul against a landlord

Lau2976

Thanks for all the responses! We have an outstanding agreement that anything damaged by my work materials is repaired or replaced. He also has had no objection to be painting in other rooms. Just this one. I thought he may be trying to let out the other room in the bear future but it's just a guess. The reason I've stopped painting in the sitting room is because a new wall has been built which blocks a certain amount of light. I didn't think it woul be an issue as the wall is painted white and there is a generic black carpet.

He has also never had an objection to me working from home and I never allow buyers to view my work in my home. I mainly do abstract and anything else (portraits, landscape, etc) are done on site.

Gatling

Op are you specifically renting a 2 bed or does your lease say otherwise

Lau2976

He also found out as he turned up with a repairman to fix the stove.

Michael D Not Higgins

Lau2976 wrote: »

Thanks for all the responses! We have an outstanding agreement that anything damaged by my work materials is repaired or replaced. He also has had no objection to be painting in other rooms. Just this one. I thought he may be trying to let out the other room in the bear future but it's just a guess. The reason I've stopped painting in the sitting room is because a new wall has been built which blocks a certain amount of light. I didn't think it woul be an issue as the wall is painted white and there is a generic black carpet.

He has also never had an objection to me working from home and I never allow buyers to view my work in my home. I mainly do abstract and anything else (portraits, landscape, etc) are done on site.

It's been eight months and there's a new wall being built in the place? You think he wants to rent out a room in your place? He can't if you're already paying the rent and have a lease. The room isn't his to rent out while you're still living there.

There's something funny going on, whether it's an amateur landlord who doesn't know the score, or the rental agreement is not standard.

Lau2976

Gatling wrote: »

Op are you specifically renting a 2 bed or does your lease say otherwise

I believe it says 2 bedrooms. Before moving in I was not made aware that there would be no furniture in the second room if that helps at all.

P. Breathnach

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

If the landlord has an issue with just that room then move the stuff and say 'no harm, no foul'.

OP is paying rent for the entire apartment, so has reasonable entitlement to use all the rooms. There is a room that was apparently constructed as a bedroom, but has no bed in it. Is it reasonable to preclude OP from using that room?

By failing to furnish the room, the landlord has left the room without a particular purpose, so it is not being "repurposed".

[Concerns about possible paint damage can be dealt with separately. If a tenant damages a property, the tenant is liable for the cost of repairs.]

Lau2976

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

It's been eight months and there's a new wall being built in the place? You think he wants to rent out a room in your place? He can't if you're already paying the rent and have a lease. The room isn't his to rent out while you're still living there.

There's something funny going on, whether it's an amateur landlord who doesn't know the score, or the rental agreement is not standard.

That's good to know I was quite worried that was his plan. It wasn't built in the house but along the border where the garden connects. I know the LL agreed to it with the neighbour after my tennency began.

emeldc

OP, you sound like a quiet, peaceful person and I have no doubt that you look after the place and pay your rent on time.
If you are all of the above and were renting from me I wouldn't give a sh1te what you were using the second bedroom for. Any damage you may cause would be dealt with from your deposit. IMO your landlord just sounds like an a***ole. I mean, what's he going to do? Issue an eviction notice for breach of the lease? LOL. We've all read the threads about tenants not paying rent and wrecking the joint and it still takes forever to get them out. You have nothing to worry about.

Mrs OBumble

Also, it's likely that the planning permission says that the property must have two bedrooms. I know that mine is like that - it had to be let as a 2br, even though we only regularly use one as a bedroom.

pwurple

This makes no sense to me, as a landlord or as a tenant. Even if it was a bedroom, there's nothing to say you can't have an easel in a bedroom... is there?

I'd say you caught this guy on an off day, or he was making a weird joke, and there will be nothing more about it.

Lau2976

Thanks for the responses again. I tried talking to him last night but I'll I got in return was a grunt and him saying it was a breach of my lease. I asked him out straight of he wanted to take new tennants or if he was hoping to increase my rent and he said no. He said he's happy for me the stay and pay my rent but that I can't paint in that room. I'm completely confused now by his behaviour and can't understand his reasoning behind it. When I asked for an explanation all he said was that it was against our lease.

I've never been late with a payment and we've only ever had one issue which was resolved quickly. I just don't understand waft he wants from me. We have an agreement that I will pay for damage outside of my security deposit because of the nature of my work.

The_Morrigan

Lau2976 wrote: »

Thanks for the responses again. I tried talking to him last night but I'll I got in return was a grunt and him saying it was a breach of my lease. I asked him out straight of he wanted to take new tennants or if he was hoping to increase my rent and he said no. He said he's happy for me the stay and pay my rent but that I can't paint in that room. I'm completely confused now by his behaviour and can't understand his reasoning behind it. When I asked for an explanation all he said was that it was against our lease.

I've never been late with a payment and we've only ever had one issue which was resolved quickly. I just don't understand waft he wants from me. We have an agreement that I will pay for damage outside of my security deposit because of the nature of my work.

Ask him to quote the clause that you are allegedly breaching in the lease that you've signed.

drumswan

Lau2976 wrote: »

Thanks for the responses again. I tried talking to him last night but I'll I got in return was a grunt and him saying it was a breach of my lease. I asked him out straight of he wanted to take new tennants or if he was hoping to increase my rent and he said no. He said he's happy for me the stay and pay my rent but that I can't paint in that room. I'm completely confused now by his behaviour and can't understand his reasoning behind it. When I asked for an explanation all he said was that it was against our lease.

I've never been late with a payment and we've only ever had one issue which was resolved quickly. I just don't understand waft he wants from me. We have an agreement that I will pay for damage outside of my security deposit because of the nature of my work.

Sounds like with a lot of landlords, you are better off ignoring him. Hes a gob****e.

groovyg

So you are paying rent for a two bedroom place but one room you are not allowed to use !This makes no sense at all. In relation to the spare room is the landlord storing items there or is it your stuff?

Mrs OBumble

Ask him what you ARE allowed to use it for.

Gatling

Op taken from citizens advice
Rights as a tenant in private rented accommodation

**You are entitled to quiet and exclusive enjoyment of your home**
You are entitled to certain minimum standards of accommodation
You are entitled to a rent book
You have the right to contact the landlord or their agent at any reasonable times. You are also entitled to have appropriate contact information (telephone numbers, email addresses, postal addresses, etc.)
Your landlord is only allowed to enter your home with your permission. If the landlord needs to carry out repairs or inspect the premises, it should be by prior arrangement, except in an emergency
You are entitled to reimbursement for any repairs that you carry out that are the landlord's responsibility
You are entitled to have friends to stay overnight or for short periods, unless specifically forbidden in your tenancy agreement. You must tell your landlord if you have an extra person moving in
You are entitled to a certain amount of notice of the termination of your tenancy
You are entitled to refer any disputes to the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB) without being penalised for doing so
You have the right to a copy of any register entry held by the PRTB dealing with your tenancy
All homes for rent must have a Building Energy Rating (BER), stating how energy-efficient the home is. This will help you to make an informed choice when comparing properties to rent.

Point one is the important part

Lau2976

The clause he claims I'm breaking is that I can't move the furniture to another room, but it states that I can't move HIS furniture, not mine. I haven't moved anything that was already there because there was nothing.

The stuff being stored was mine.

I think he is just being a bit of a jerk about it. He's a bit of an idiot TBH. The only other issue I've had with him had nothing to do with the property and was entirely his ignorance so what else could I expect? :rolleyes:

groovyg

So he's saying you can't use the spare room which you are paying for as part of the rental agreement, why don't you ask him for a reduction in the rent? I'm sure he would change his mind quick smart ! Is he registered with the PRTB? He sounds like a complete tool.

Lau2976

He's usually a decent LL. He's PRTB registered

I may just have to try that!

The_Morrigan

Lau2976 wrote: »

He's a total tool. He's ignorant and completely intolerant. But he's usually a decent LL. He's PRTB registered

I may just have to try that!

This is not appropriate, please stop with the defamatory statements.

Lau2976

The_Morrigan wrote: »

This is not appropriate, please stop with the defamatory statements.

Sorry!

foggy_lad

Was the house belonging to his parents/mother? Maybe that room was his mothers/fathers and either/both of them diedd there? he might not want anyone using it and that might explain why he doesn't want the other furniture moved between rooms within the house.

xper

Lau2976 wrote: »

... My lease states that I can't remove his furniture or redecorate a room ...

Lau2976 wrote: »

The clause he claims I'm breaking is that I can't move the furniture to another room, but it states that I can't move HIS furniture, not mine. ...

Whoa! What? I assumed that the statement above from your first post just referred to the removal of provided furniture from the premesis which would be reasonable and pretty standard. But you're actually saying that the lease forbids rearrangement of furniture within the apartment? That's mad Ted! Some landlords really do come up with crazy ideas about controlling their tenants lives.

Lau2976 wrote: »

I may just have to try that!

i don't see how you have to try anything. Just ignore him and carry on as you are, he's talking nonsense.