Should Ireland get involved in Catalonia?

ShooterSF

So with over 80% of Catalans voting in favour of independence on Sunday last, a referendum the Spanish government deemed illegal and tried to stop going ahead, should we, given our nation's history of oppression by a foreign power publicly stand behind the Catalans?

Personally I think this is the kind of issue our President should be voicing concern over and trying to help put the international pressure on Spain that will be required to allow people who clearly don't want to be Spanish the opportunity to be free. Human rights issues are something I feel falls within the focus of our head of state.

Cookie_Monster

nothing was said about the Venetian one, why would this be any different?

Hold the Cheez Whiz

ShooterSF wrote: »

So with over 80% of Catalans voting in favour of independence on Sunday last, a referendum the Spanish government deemed illegal and tried to stop going ahead, should we, given our nation's history of oppression by a foreign power publicly stand behind the Catalans?

Personally I think this is the kind of issue our President should be voicing concern over and trying to help put the international pressure on Spain that will be required to allow people who clearly don't want to be Spanish the opportunity to be free. Human rights issues are something I feel falls within the focus of our head of state.

The 80% is based on something like 30% turnout, and they changed both the voting age and eligibility requirements for the straw poll. I hardly think that this showing should prompt an international intervention.

FreudianSlippers

I think it was a symbolic referendum rather than one which was ever intended to have legal standing, but that being said I think we should always support nonviolent independence

ShooterSF

I honestly wasn't aware of it. I'm lucky enough to live with a catalan housemate who has explained what's going on. But surely that's the problem, people are fighting for independence while those that rule them won't allow it and there are those around them ignorant of their plight. Something I feel is a major human rights issue and one our nation would have a legitimate reason to voice issue with. Perhaps pressure from the outside world will give people a peaceful resolution where only violent options seem to remain.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

ShooterSF wrote: »

I honestly wasn't aware of it. I'm lucky enough to live with a catalan housemate who has explained what's going on. But surely that's the problem, people are fighting for independence while those that rule them won't allow it and there are those around them ignorant of their plight. Something I feel is a major human rights issue and one our nation would have a legitimate reason to voice issue with. Perhaps pressure from the outside world will give people a peaceful resolution where only violent options seem to remain.

The Catalan vote made international headlines. Also, only some Catalans are pushing for independence.

I would understand the human rights angle in the 70s, but it is a harder case to make today. It's also hard to make the case that independence would free Catalonia from the pernicious hand of Madrid with the recent revelations that the CiU leadership has been deeply involved in massive tax fraud for the last thirty years.

ShooterSF

All fair points but how much of an influence did the Spanish governments threats that the referendum was illegal have on turnout? In my opinion they should have allowed the referendum to go ahead or offered a fair alternative date if it was an issue of being too soon. I don't think Spain should be pressured to accept the result but to offer a proper referendum they would respect the result of.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

ShooterSF wrote: »

All fair points but how much of an influence did the Spanish governments threats that the referendum was illegal have on turnout? In my opinion they should have allowed the referendum to go ahead or offered a fair alternative date if it was an issue of being too soon. I don't think Spain should be pressured to accept the result but to offer a proper referendum they would respect the result of.

I think the fact that it was a straw poll clearly had an effect on turnout, but the other issue is that this kind of referendum is all but impossible under the Spanish constitution (and IIRC, the Spanish high court has ruled on this several times).

Cookie_Monster

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

but that being said I think we should always support nonviolent independence

how far would you take that ultimately though?
what if the calls for Cork to gain independence actually got real for example rather than the jovial slant they currently enjoy?

What would be the root cause(s) required to justify a valid independence movement?

ShooterSF

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how far would you take that ultimately though?
what if the calls for Cork to gain independence actually got real for example rather than the jovial slant they currently enjoy?

What would be the root cause(s) required to justify a valid independence movement?

At what point do you tell a people that the nationality they identify as is lesser than someone else's? If a majority of Cork really did identify as from the nation of Cork and wanted independence would you not see that as their right? Whether it would be a stupid move for them economically would be something only they would have the right to weigh up surely.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

ShooterSF wrote: »

At what point do you tell a people that the nationality they identify as is lesser than someone else's?

But how in contemporary Spain is being Catalan in any way defined as 'lesser'? Catalonia has enormous autonomy from Madrid (and the Basques even more so), including control over language in school through third level. Apart from the occasional nasty asides from right-wing cranks who always have and always will dislike regional autonomy (for everyone, not just Catalans), it isn't clear that Catalan identity in today's Spain is under threat from the national government. Actually, when I lived in Spain a few years ago, I heard a lot of grumbling about the reverse: Catalans looked down on the rest of Spain (Andalusians in particular), and there was a lot of resentment that the Catalans were trying to cut loose from the rest of the country in a moment of deep economic crisis.

droidman123

ShooterSF wrote: »

So with over 80% of Catalans voting in favour of independence on Sunday last, a referendum the Spanish government deemed illegal and tried to stop going ahead, should we, given our nation's history of oppression by a foreign power publicly stand behind the Catalans?

Personally I think this is the kind of issue our President should be voicing concern over and trying to help put the international pressure on Spain that will be required to allow people who clearly don't want to be Spanish the opportunity to be free. Human rights issues are something I feel falls within the focus of our head of state.

Why would we get involved? We should sort out the foreign occupation of our own country first.

Cookie_Monster

ShooterSF wrote: »

At what point do you tell a people that the nationality they identify as is lesser than someone else's?

I don't know, that's why I asked. I can understand the desire of say the Basque region, or Catalonia or Venice want to separate as there is a long history of independence or semi independence before the modern day countries formed. They also have fairly powerful economic reasons to split too. But if the people of howth suddenly decided they wanted an independent peninsula why should anyone take them seriously, they've always been Irish, always been a part of Dublin, have no historic, cultural or economic reason to split and couldn't survive as a separate nation. Do you honestly think they should be entertained?

ShooterSF wrote: »

If a majority of Cork really did identify as from the nation of Cork and wanted independence would you not see that as their right? Whether it would be a stupid move for them economically would be something only they would have the right to weigh up surely.

No, the rest of Ireland should have a say as they are invested economically, historically and culturally in Cork. It would have a major impact on the whole country, why shouldn't the rest of Ireland be entitled to a say?

dlouth15

Although individuals in Ireland are free to have an opinion on the matter, I don't see Ireland's interests being served by getting involved on either side. It is for the Catalan people in particular and the Spanish people in general to determine how they organize their country.

chrysagon

Clean up our own back yard before worrying about someone elses!

gandalf

Yep maybe we should sort our own **** out first before we start dictating to other countries about their affairs.

mrbrianj

If Cork voted for independence it could go either way, where as if the rest of us voted to set them free..eemmm

Why should we worry about the Catalan vote, if 70% of Catalans did not.

swimming in a sea

So some people want a united Ireland, but don't want a united Spain. What are opinions on Belgium, Switzerland, Kosovo, Moldova, etc. the list is endless

I don't care either way, but are there advantages to a world of small countries\city states?

London & New York would be better off if they became independent and the fact is both are ethnically far different to the countries they belong to.

walshb

Isn't Catalonia on Spanish land? It's part of the land mass of Spain? Like Wexford or Galway wanting independence form Ireland....

conorh91

gandalf wrote: »

Yep maybe we should sort our own **** out first before we start dictating to other countries about their affairs.

So unless we're some impossible utopia, we have no business sharing our experience?

I think Ireland (and the UK for that matter) has a potential role to play in helping to resolve the internal separatist disputes of other jurisdictions.

That said, the office of the President would be a totally inappropriate source of that assistance.

I don't think Catalonia is a particularly good example, but there are other countries like DRC and Sri Lanka that might want to draw on the Irish experience.

DarkyHughes

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how far would you take that ultimately though?
what if the calls for Cork to gain independence actually got real for example rather than the jovial slant they currently enjoy?

What would be the root cause(s) required to justify a valid independence movement?

Cork did the most fighting & suffering during the War of Liberation & put up the most resistance during the Civil war for an Irish Republic, would be a bit stupid of them to throw all that proud history away.

We should be supporting the Palestinian cause. The Catalonians aren't be oppressed by brute military force.

HalloweenJack

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I think it was a symbolic referendum rather than one which was ever intended to have legal standing, but that being said I think we should always support nonviolent independence

It was originally intended to be a legal one but that is not possible within the current legal framework of Spain and there was no way in hell that they were going to let it have any legal value so soon after the Scottish one.

Spaniards hate Catalans. I really don't understand why Spaniards are so eager to have them stay part of the country when there is so much vitriol directed towards them. Catalans are the Cork people of Spain but they do have a distinct language and culture and there is plenty of basis for them wanting to leave.

Personally, I'd be happy for them to have independence but I don't think Ireland should be getting involved in the democratic process of other countries. We wouldn't be happy with Spaniards sticking their noses into our dealings with the North. Like another poster said, we'd be better off getting involved in helping Palestine.

porsche959

The Irish government should most certainly not get involved in supporting Catalan independence. This would risk causing great annoyance to a friendly neighbour and fellow EU member, Spain, for no positive outcome. We should be battling along with Spain for a better debt deal from the Germans.

NIMAN

Maybe we should just mind our own business?

MRnotlob606

Though think Catalonia will be going anywhere considering they contribute to about 20% percent of Spain's GDP

DarkyHughes

There was some very disturbing talk on this issue by high ranking military personal, saying stuff to the effect that if the politicians fail the military might have to get involved again - again being a reference to the Franco revolt. It's just pretty disturbing in itself that the Spanish military hold such a brutal dictator in such high regard.

AndonHandon

There is absolutely no legitimate grounding in a Catalan independence push. For Ireland to support such a cause would be equivalent to refraining from comment on a Deish manoeuvre.

An Ciarraioch

The ruling CiU party has broken up into pro-independence and local autonomy wings - still, between the new CDC, Esquerra and Podemos, the forthcoming regional election should produce a pro-referendum majority.

TwoGallants

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The ruling CiU party has broken up into pro-independence and local autonomy wings - still, between the new CDC, Esquerra and Podemos, the forthcoming regional election should produce a pro-referendum majority.

Podemos is in favour of a referendum but not in favour of independence - for example, the new alcadesa of Barcelona, Ada Colau (a wonderful woman by the way) is pro unity.

While a majority of Catalans say they are independista in theory, I doubt so many would vote so in practise. There is too much for them to lose. The urgency of independence came with the crisis, and an unfounded belief that they are subsidising the rest of Spain (they're not, if anything, they're a net beneficiary of infrastructure spending from Madrid) In my opinion, the independistas are motivated more by the horrible corruption here in Spain (we only think we have it bad in Ireland), but with people like Ada Colau and the new political parties of left and right emerging, the old politics seems well and truly dead here. This is an exciting time to be living in Spain. (I voted recently for Barcelona en comu, the Podemos backed platform here in Barcelona)

An Ciarraioch

TwoGallants wrote: »

Podemos is in favour of a referendum but not in favour of independence - for example, the new alcadesa of Barcelona, Ada Colau (a wonderful woman by the way) is pro unity.

While a majority of Catalans say they are independista in theory, I doubt so many would vote so in practise. There is too much for them to lose. The urgency of independence came with the crisis, and an unfounded belief that they are subsidising the rest of Spain (they're not, if anything, they're a net beneficiary of infrastructure spending from Madrid) In my opinion, the independistas are motivated more by the horrible corruption here in Spain (we only think we have it bad in Ireland), but with people like Ada Colau and the new political parties of left and right emerging, the old politics seems well and truly dead here. This is an exciting time to be living in Spain. (I voted recently for Barcelona en comu, the Podemos backed platform here in Barcelona)

Indeed, the most important result that could come out of the election would be that Madrid would engage more with the Catalans, if the old parties want to maintain any kind of foothold in the region. Ideally, all sides would agree to a Scottish-style solution, otherwise divisions will only get more bitter.

nuac

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't know, that's why I asked. I can understand the desire of say the Basque region, or Catalonia or Venice want to separate as there is a long history of independence or semi independence before the modern day countries formed. They also have fairly powerful economic reasons to split too. But if the people of howth suddenly decided they wanted an independent peninsula why should anyone take them seriously, they've always been Irish, always been a part of Dublin, have no historic, cultural or economic reason to split and couldn't survive as a separate nation. Do you honestly think they should be entertained?

No, the rest of Ireland should have a say as they are invested economically, historically and culturally in Cork. It would have a major impact on the whole country, why shouldn't the rest of Ireland be entitled to a say?

Yes, independence for Howth.Would stop Gay Byrne from yet more series. ;_