Gendered marketing

McChubbin

A friend of mine is currently trying to source a gender-neutral toy kitchen for her little boy for Christmas as she reckons he'd love it but is having a major problem trying to find one that isn't pink and specificly marketed towards the female populace.
It got me thinking as to how things are marketed specificly to certain gender stereotypes:
Pink for girls, blue for boys.
Barbies, dolls and pink 'feminine' laptops for girls, footballs, builder's toys and blue 'masculine' things for boys.

This subject has been on my mind for a while as I've discovered in recent months that Kinder Eggs are now going this route with regards to their toy marketing: Barbie-related toys in pink-wrapped eggs for girls, Transformers in blue for boys.
I personally believe that gender stereotypes are wrong and damaging to a child's sense of identity during their formative years.
Who's to say boys can't play with dolls?
Who's to say girls can't play football?

When I was little, Kinder Eggs were fairly innoculous, non-descript things with toys that were relatively gender-neutral. I used to love collecting the toys regardless of whether they were considered "girly/ boyish" but it worries me that today girls are expected to accept Barbie-centric pink toys and boys to have strictly blue items.

I could go on for many pages as to why I hate Barbie and all she stands for but I won't clutter this topic with my views on her.
I'd like to hear the views from others on this issue as I think it would make for an interesting debate.

Eroticplants

It's a key issue in feminism, breaking down gender roles and gender stereotypes.
Wouldn't so much see it as an LGBT based issue but a lot of feminist ideals would translate over into the LGBT circle I suppose.

Also, the segregation of the kinder egg toys SERIOUSLY pissed me off too and the fact that you hardly ever have to make the toy anymore but that's a different issue.

Chucken

Santy is bringing this for my 2 year old grandson: http://www.littlewoodsireland.ie/smoby-bon-appetit-kitchen/1379108390.prd

There are a few gender neutral kitchens on that site.
http://www.littlewoodsireland.ie/toys/pretend-play/role-play/e/b/21043,5296.end?numProducts=40

Up to a few weeks ago one of his favourite things to bash around, was a pink walker thingy. I found it in a 2nd hand shop and he loved it.
He has a buggy and a 'baby'. He also loves playing dress up (robbing shoes or jackets belonging to me (nana) or his dad, he's not fussy)

When he plays outside with his little friends, it's usually a ball game or chasing, which involves a lot of falling over and dirt

As a family, we all agreed he wasn't to be told 'you can't have that cos it's for a girl'.
Bearing in mind that his dad is a 6 foot block of a rugby player.
It's down to the parents. After all it's just coloured plastic or fabric. Let them explore

McChubbin

Well said, Chicken.
Cheers for the links- I will pass them on to my friend as I'm sure she'll appreciate them.
She's of the same mind as your family- Let them explore.

Chucken

I should have said 'the parents attitude'

I'm training up the next Jamie Oliver/ Michael Flatley/ Ronan O Gara anyway:D

Sheldons Brain

People have genders, and toys recognise that, people who buy them should too.

Chucken

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

People have genders, and toys recognise that, people who buy them should too.

Would you care to expand on that comment?

eviltwin

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

People have genders, and toys recognise that, people who buy them should too.

And what? Your gender dictates the kinds of thing you like to play with as a kid?

My 4 yr old boy plays with anything, he has lots of dolls that his sister has outgrown that he plays with. He still plays with his "boys" toys too. The only thing he hates is pink so he won't go near anything of that colour but give him a "girls" toy in another hue and he'll play with it no bother.

There are studies that show that boys who play with dolls tend to make better fathers compared to boys who are more gender specific.

We seem to have no problem letting girls do things that were traditionally masculine and that's been good for them so why not let boys do "girlie" things? Where is the harm?

Annasopra

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

People have genders, and toys recognise that, people who buy them should too.

How do toys recognise gender? Do dolls and kitchens tell children that they are girls? Do trucks and soldiers tell children they are boys?

Ash885

Is it not a bit ironic trying to find a "blue kitchen" or something non-pink to show that boys can play with these toys? Surely colour doesn't matter if you're essentially making a statement that the toys are gender neutral. Just buy the kitchen. Of course you don't want something blatantly feminine but any kitchen I've seen in Smiths, Little Woods etc. for 18 months+ is largely gender neutral and many parents buy them regardless of social constrictions.

If you ever see play time in an infant/pre school classroom you'll see girls equally go for the DIY play equipment and pretend to fix pipes along with the boys designs clothes out of felt etc. It's come a long way so we must give credit to the changes that are largely still in the pipeline. Of course if you look at Argos' catalogues there's a plethoria of evidence showing gender stereotyping, but that's targeted at the consumer and as long as the consumer (i.e. adult) is level headed it will be ineffective. The advertisers are playing catch up I think.

Aard

McChubbin wrote: »

[...]
Barbie-related toys in pink-wrapped eggs for girls, Transformers in blue for boys.
[...]
Who's to say boys can't play with dolls?
Who's to say girls can't play football?
[...]

Who's to say girls can't play with a blue Transformer?

Daith

Surely if you're saying "I don't want a pink kitchen for my son" you're just reinforcing the gender/colour stereotype anyway?

Yes son, you can play with anything as long as it's not pink because we want you to be able to play with anything?

Annasopra

Daith wrote: »

Surely if you're saying "I don't want a pink kitchen for my son" you're just reinforcing the gender/colour stereotype anyway?

Yes son, you can play with anything as long as it's not pink because we want you to be able to play with anything?

No. I dont think so. In my view - its more - "we want you to play with that toy but the designers have presented an ideological narrative that only girls play with that toy (and by extension cook in the kitchen) so we would prefer if you played with that toy with the ideological narrative removed"

Daith

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No - in my view - its more - "we want you to play with that toy but the designers have presented an ideological narrative that only girls play with that toy (and by extension cook in the kitchen) so we would prefer if you played with that toy with the ideological narrative removed"

It's the parent still agreeing with the ideological view the designers have. The parent is still pushing the gender difference.

Reinforcing pink is for girls, blue is for boys.

eviltwin

Daith wrote: »

Surely if you're saying "I don't want a pink kitchen for my son" you're just reinforcing the gender/colour stereotype anyway?

Yes son, you can play with anything as long as it's not pink because we want you to be able to play with anything?

It's targeting kids too though. The parents might be colour blind but just try getting a young lad to play with anything pink and covered in glitter.

Daith

eviltwin wrote: »

It's targeting kids too though. The parents might be colour blind but just try getting a young lad to play with anything pink and covered in glitter.

That's a slight extreme example. Would you not buy your son a cookbook that had Nigella Lawson on the front?

Just checked toy kitchens on Smyths. Any issue here?

http://www.smythstoys.com/ie/en-ie/toys/fashion-dolls/c-498/kitchens-household/p-4675/bosch-kitchen/

http://www.smythstoys.com/ie/en-ie/toys/fashion-dolls/c-498/kitchens-household/p-5014/little-tikes-cookin-creations-premium-wood-kitchen/

http://www.smythstoys.com/ie/en-ie/toys/fashion-dolls/c-498/kitchens-household/p-1812/step-2-lifestyle-dream-kitchen/

eviltwin

Daith wrote: »

That's a slight extreme example. Would you not buy your son a cookbook that had Nigella Lawson on the front?

Just checked toy kitchens on Smyths. Any issue here?

http://www.smythstoys.com/ie/en-ie/toys/fashion-dolls/c-498/kitchens-household/p-4675/bosch-kitchen/

http://www.smythstoys.com/ie/en-ie/toys/fashion-dolls/c-498/kitchens-household/p-5014/little-tikes-cookin-creations-premium-wood-kitchen/



http://www.smythstoys.com/ie/en-ie/toys/fashion-dolls/c-498/kitchens-household/p-1812/step-2-lifestyle-dream-kitchen/

A Nigella Lawson book isn't a toy, its not marketed to kids.

I have no issues at all with my son playing with a kitchen pink or not and I think most parents are the same but boys when they get to a certain age are funny about things that are perceived to be girlie. I can see it with the boys in my family, they might play with a certain toy on their own but when they are with their friends they won't because they don't want to be slagged.

Daith

eviltwin wrote: »

A Nigella Lawson book isn't a toy, its not marketed to kids. .

Why wouldn't it be? If you want to buy your child a toy kitchen and they can express an interest in cooking? Why wouldn't you start cooking with your son and follow recipes from a book?

eviltwin wrote: »

I have no issues at all with my son playing with a kitchen pink or not and I think most parents are the same but boys when they get to a certain age are funny about things that are perceived to be girlie. I can see it with the boys in my family, they might play with a certain toy on their own but when they are with their friends they won't because they don't want to be slagged

And the parents are reinforcing that perception by saying "we're not buying that kitchen set because it's girlie/made for girls".

eviltwin

Daith wrote: »

Why wouldn't it be? If you want to buy your child a toy kitchen and they can express an interest in cooking? Why wouldn't you start cooking with your son and follow recipes from a book?

Who says I don't? I've already said I don't stereotype toys, my point was about the children themselves not the parents.

Daith

eviltwin wrote: »

Who says I don't? I've already said I don't stereotype toys, my point was about the children themselves not the parents.

In this case it's not the child buying something but the parent and the parent deciding what is for boys or girls.

I just think it's an interesting debate though. I just don't get the idea of gender neutral because it's still boils down to a parents perception.

Clearlier

Daith wrote: »

And the parents are reinforcing that perception by saying "we're not buying that kitchen set because it's girlie/made for girls".

Unless of course they're also not buying the kitchen set that's marketed at boys in which case they're reinforcing the perception that gender stereotypes are to be avoided.

Ash885

eviltwin wrote: »

Who says I don't? I've already said I don't stereotype toys, my point was about the children themselves not the parents.

It's a proven fact children get these stereotypes from their adult peers. Infant rooms around the country have roleplay sections to their play timetable. Lads are just as keen to play with "girly" dolls and toys as much as girls pretend to be mechanics. We aren't magically born to be attracted to blues and pinks, it's social conventions.

Problems start when children get a little bit older, and start going on play dates and interact with other children and adults in other houses/places. Then the stereo types are more thoroughly enforced so as not to look "weird". though,not by children themselves though as there'd be no reason to question these things by a child. It's from an exterior source. Then the children put this in place within their own social peer groups.

And that's the purpose of this thread is to challange and discuss this. However it's highly ironic that the OP is giving out about kitchens only being in pink, heavily targeted at girls and that's not fitting for a boy, when in fact a pink kitchen is just as normal, or should be percieved as such. Asking for a "boy version" of a kitchen is just insane and reinforcing the fact if anything or everything is pink/feminine it's not meant for you. Boys can like pink things. Girls can like blue things. When allowed. Shock. Lead by example and buy the frilly kitchen.

freshpopcorn

Now I'm rarely in toy shops but when ever I have being I've always found there were toy kitchens that were suited to both both sexes if colour was an issue for you.
Regarding kinder eggs. I heard somewhere before that the reason they made pink\blue ones was because they weren't really selling to the female market and they were trying to increase sales.

Annasopra

Ash885 wrote: »

It's a proven fact children get these stereotypes from their adult peers.

Is it? surely adults are not childrens peers anyway

Ash885

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Is it? surely adults are not childrens peers anyway

Well studies argue and differ all the time, but from my experience and research it's clear there's a link. Children make gender references on their own of course, but the kinds we are talking about are heavily adult influenced.

Children learn social concepts both from each other and also from adults. So are we really going to debate semantics? I'll rephrase then, adults in their vicinity peer :pac: But if you use the term loosely like I intended, you'd see peer groups as a group whereby there's a similar social status within a group who follow a specific hierarchy. In this case, children watching adults.

Annasopra

Any thoughts on these pens?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004F9QBE6?vs=1

Annasopra

Ash885 wrote: »

Asking for a "boy version" of a kitchen is just insane and reinforcing the fact if anything or everything is pink/feminine it's not meant for you.

Its not asking for a boy version in my view. Its asking for a gender neutral version. A version that isnt specifically targeted for boys or for girls.

I dont agree that it is insane at all. I think it is parents who would prefer if their children were not constricted to the ideas that adults have about gender roles and the nuclear family.
I think its ridiculous for example that lego have lego kitchens in pink specifically marketed at girls.

L1011

Lego found that when they did gender neutral marketing they sold far less product; however the old 'simple' girls lines were failures too. The new ones are just add l as complex to build as the main line, finally

Daith

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its not asking for a boy version in my view. Its asking for a gender neutral version. A version that isnt specifically targeted for boys or for girls.

Lets take the Smyths examples above. In two of them only girls are featured but the kitchen itself looks gender neutral. Not pink and glittery.

Now is it being targeted towards girls because there's a picture of a girl playing with the set?

Is the below image saying that boys make money and girls are only suited to minimum wage jobs? Or is the girl a successful business owner with her own shop and the guy is on the dole?

Aard

Maybe all kids' toys should be made only in pleasant shades of green and yellow. Orange at a push. Purple's still too fruity, right?

Ash885

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its not asking for a boy version in my view. Its asking for a gender neutral version. A version that isnt specifically targeted for boys or for girls.

I dont agree that it is insane at all. I think it is parents who would prefer if their children were not constricted to the ideas that adults have about gender roles and the nuclear family.
I think its ridiculous for example that lego have lego kitchens in pink specifically marketed at girls.

That children not be constricted to the ideas that adults have? That's my point, so why not just buy any old kitchen? If you're telling a child that (a) you can't have a pink kitchen because that's meant for a girl and you're a boy, and (b) you can't have a blue kitchen because that's meant for a boy and well we want to teach you not to be stereo-typed, you're giving faaaaaar too much notice and giving too much power to marketers, the very people we're having issues with. Because then where does the gender neuteral colour come in? Then everything would look all aunt and mute and not very appealing for a child.

Toy companies are out to make money. You have your traditional toys for boys and for girls set out. If you're out to prove to your children that you're free to play with whatever you want whenever you want, going for gender neutral is not the way to go about it.

Having said that you can't really stop any of the stereo typing happening realistically with the media/celebrity/Disney. I suppose just give the child enough confidence in themselves to make their own choices where possible.

Annasopra

Ash885 wrote: »

If you're telling a child that (a) you can't have a pink kitchen because that's meant for a girl and you're a boy, and (b) you can't have a blue kitchen because that's meant for a boy and well we want to teach you not to be stereo-typed

The thing is though - when you think about it those messages also come from other children so in my view if you want to avoid gendered stereotyping then gender neutral is better in my view as it lessens the messages coming from the childs peers.

Ash885

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The thing is though - when you think about it those messages also come from other children so in my view if you want to avoid gendered stereotyping then gender neutral is better in my view as it lessens the messages coming from the childs peers.

So you think it's innate in us that we associate colours with gender, or are those views from the children not as a result of adults?

Annasopra

Ash885 wrote: »

So you think it's innate in us that we associate colours with gender, or are those views from the children not as a result of adults?

No neither

I think other children will learn things from the world around them.

Ash885

Then what specifically tells us boys like blue and girls like pink then?

I agree the world does influence us but social aspects are far more superior in strength.

Annasopra

Ash885 wrote: »

Then what specifically tells us boys like blue and girls like pink then?

I agree the world does influence us but social aspects are far more superior in strength.

Its not specific. Its a mixture of history, culture and marketing.

irish_dave_83

The early learning centre have two kitchens, one is different shades of pink and the other is red, blue green and white, so its neutral and they are both very sturdy with lots of accessories. And its currently half price so thats a bonus.

Aurongroove

Well with that logic, then gender differences and gender marketing wither or not they are an artifice of society or ingrained natural psychology, shouldn't be censored from a child as doing so would hinder their social development and understanding.

In other words if gender marketing is everywhere them a responsible parent will prepare their child for it, rather then keep them naive to it.

A metaphore woudl be akin to shielding your child from christmas toy commercials:

One parent might say "I don't let my kids watch christmas ads becasue they'll want all the toys they see"

but a better path might be to say "I allow my kids to see the toy commercials, but I also teach them that ads are designed to make you want stuff that you don't actually need, or look better then it is"


My answer in this case is don't buy gender neutral toys, buy "girls" toys and "boys" toys and allow your child to play with whichever they wish and make them aware of gender marketing (and how silly it is) and let them make up their own minds.

Aard

Bit extreme no? Imo there's no need to actively let a child know that pink is for girls, blue is for boys. They'll pick it up themselves. I agree with not shielding them from it, however the social risk from keeping kids naive of gender stereotyping is probably minimal.

Annasopra

Ash885 wrote: »

Then what specifically tells us boys like blue and girls like pink then?

I agree the world does influence us but social aspects are far more superior in strength.

I dont think there is anything specific at all. Its a mixture of culture, history, marketing, education, socialisation, assumption, ideology.

Chunners

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I dont think there is anything specific at all. Its a mixture of culture, history, marketing, education, socialisation, assumption, ideology.

You are so wrong on so many levels that it is funny at this point. You all talk about kids not being forced to play with toys unless they are "Gender neutral" toys but people, even the ones here who are arguing against them, enforce those genders on a daily basis. Ask the OP if her friend called her son a "gender neutral" name, ask her if her friend dresses him in "gender neutral" clothes. I'm betting not. You are all advocating this "gender neutral" crap but the fact is her son is a boy, a male and to force a toy on him is wrong too. Has anyone asked him if he cares if the kitchen is pink? Part of growing up is finding your own gender identity and thats something that you should find yourself not have some concept of being "gender neutral" place on your shoulders at an early age.

What exactly do you all think not buying him a pink kitchen going to achieve? I mean chances are in a week he will have it covered in mud and crawling with worms because he wants to play mad scientist and after that he will go back to his tool set which he will use as surgical implements to dissect GI Joe so will you all give out then because he is using them in a way that is not their intended purpose? Seriously it is ****e like this that destroys kids imaginations. Next it will be buying kids a box of crayons but removing all the pink and blue ones just because you don't want to confuse them :rolleyes:

keepkeyyellow

When I was 5 (in 1995) I had a kitchen set that my brother and I played with and I remember it distinctly being in primary colours - I also had a pram that was a ladybug shape but no pink whatsoever.

In fact the only gender biased toys I remember really were those dragon fly and fairy spinners.

LegacyUser

Just to let the OP know, there's a toy kitchen set available in Lidl (or was it Aldi) in their 4th December offers. Metal grey, should be a good fit.