Which programming language will pay the highest rates?

Zander1983

Hi
I've been working as a web developer for the last 7 years. For the last 3, I've been doing mainly front-end development, so Javascript (mainly Backbone.js, Require.js and Underscore.js), CSS (mainly SASS) and HTML5.

I'm currently on a rate of 450 euro per day. However, I feel like I have reached a ceiling when it come to Javascript contract rates though. I have a friend who's working as a DBA and is on 545 per day, though I would find writing SQL day in day out pretty boring.

I'm thinking of changing to another language - basically the one the pays the highest daily contract rates. What in you opinion is the language/area which will pay the most over the next few years?

Vurnon San Benito

Zander1983 wrote: »

Hi
I've been working as a web developer for the last 7 years. For the last 3, I've been doing mainly front-end development, so Javascript (mainly Backbone.js, Require.js and Underscore.js), CSS (mainly SASS) and HTML5.

I'm currently on a rate of 450 euro per day. However, I feel like I have reached a ceiling when it come to Javascript contract rates though. I have a friend who's working as a DBA and is on 545 per day, though I would find writing SQL day in day out pretty boring.

I'm thinking of changing to another language - basically the one the pays the highest daily contract rates. What in you opinion is the language/area which will pay the most over the next few years?

You lucky, lucky baxtard :pac::pac:

counterpointaud

It's probably fair to say that there is more to being a senior DBA than writing SQL every day, and I would personally doubt that a move to another language will net you more than you are getting. *Maybe* it could be argued that more established server-side languages might offer greater opportunity in the financial software field, which can be pretty high paid if you have the right experience.

Jim2007

Zander1983 wrote: »

I'm thinking of changing to another language - basically the one the pays the highest daily contract rates. What in you opinion is the language/area which will pay the most over the next few years?

It usually turns out to be the one that is flavour of the day and where demand surpasses supply Nobody can tell you how that will pan out....

I'd say if you want real cash, then go the opposite way, go for languages that are legacy: Cobol, Pascal, Visual Basic etc. - stuff other people do not want to do. I know several old boys that pull in double the figures you are mentioning and then some, writing Cobol on mainframes!

Ludo

Funnily enough Cobol was the first thing that popped into my head when I read this also.

CrookedJack

Jim2007 wrote: »

It usually turns out to be the one that is flavour of the day and where demand surpasses supply Nobody can tell you how that will pan out....

I'd say if you want real cash, then go the opposite way, go for languages that are legacy: Cobol, Pascal, Visual Basic etc. - stuff other people do not want to do. I know several old boys that pull in double the figures you are mentioning and then some, writing Cobol on mainframes!

My Aunt has just retired and was looking for some part-time work, turns out she was a Cobol programmer for years but spent the last ten years or so out of the industry. She doesn't believe me that theres much better money to be made freelancing in Cobol than taking up some part-time book-keeping or admin work.

doc11

Are there not plenty of COBOL programmers around of a certain age and with applications moving of the mainframe is there really a big demand for it as it's not a specifically hard language to learn .

Jim2007

doc11 wrote: »

Are there not plenty of COBOL programmers around of a certain age and with applications moving of the mainframe is there really a big demand for it as it's not a specifically hard language to learn .

Well it depends on the industry, but most of the apps that remain on mainframes are there because they need to be there. The are usually mission critical and companies are very willing to cough of for good people to work on them, at least here in Switzerland.

Cobol is not a difficult language to learn that is true, but trying to work a program written and maintained by a 'real' Cobol programmer over say a 20 year period is another thing altogether! First of all it is a case of little or not documentation, no data dictionary and sometimes even a case of missing source code... and then there is the programs themselves - because of size limitations, two things have happened over time: all the comments and hints have been removed and the variable names have been reduced to single letters , as programmers tried to squeeze in more code...

moycullen14

Zander1983 wrote: »

Hi
I've been working as a web developer for the last 7 years. For the last 3, I've been doing mainly front-end development, so Javascript (mainly Backbone.js, Require.js and Underscore.js), CSS (mainly SASS) and HTML5.

I'm currently on a rate of 450 euro per day. However, I feel like I have reached a ceiling when it come to Javascript contract rates though. I have a friend who's working as a DBA and is on 545 per day, though I would find writing SQL day in day out pretty boring.

I'm thinking of changing to another language - basically the one the pays the highest daily contract rates. What in you opinion is the language/area which will pay the most over the next few years?

Where are you located?

As was said above. Either bleeding edge (difficult) or trailing edge. Stuck in the middle is probably not great.

If you want money, I'd say location is every bit as important as skillset

zig

I didnt know there were much jobs in Cobol?

Beano

zig wrote: »

I didnt know there were much jobs in Cobol?

There is still a whole heap of mission critical software that is written in cobol. why has it not being replaced? because it works. and rewriting it would be very expensive. the people with the skills to maintain are on their way, or are already, retired.

Eogclouder

I would guess languages like cobol for business critical purposes or mission critical applications that need development or maintainence.

fergalr

Zander1983 wrote: »

Hi
I've been working as a web developer for the last 7 years. For the last 3, I've been doing mainly front-end development, so Javascript (mainly Backbone.js, Require.js and Underscore.js), CSS (mainly SASS) and HTML5.

I'm currently on a rate of 450 euro per day. However, I feel like I have reached a ceiling when it come to Javascript contract rates though. I have a friend who's working as a DBA and is on 545 per day, though I would find writing SQL day in day out pretty boring.

I'm thinking of changing to another language - basically the one the pays the highest daily contract rates. What in you opinion is the language/area which will pay the most over the next few years?

Your question is founded on false premises, basically, if you buy the following way of thinking about things - which I kind of do:
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/


Here is an excerpt which you can read first if you aren't sure whether to click through:

I recently asked via Twitter what young engineers wanted to know about careers. Many asked how to know what programming language or stack to study. It doesn’t matter. There you go.

Do Java programmers make more money than .NET programmers? Anyone describing themselves as either a Java programmer or .NET programmer has already lost, because a) they’re a programmer (you’re not, see above) and b) they’re making themselves non-hireable for most programming jobs. In the real world, picking up a new language takes a few weeks of effort and after 6 to 12 months nobody will ever notice you haven’t been doing that one for your entire career. I did back-end Big Freaking Java Web Application development as recently as March 2010. Trust me, nobody cares about that. If a Python shop was looking for somebody technical to make them a pile of money, the fact that I’ve never written a line of Python would not get held against me.

Ludo

fergalr wrote: »

Your question is founded on false premises, basically, if you buy the following way of thinking about things - which I kind of do:
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/


Here is an excerpt which you can read first if you aren't sure whether to click through:

That all sounds fine in theory....but how many employers advertising a java role will even look at an applicant who hasn't got 4/5 years in java. Indeed it makes no sense as and good dev will pick up java in no time but that is not the way the world works.

gargargar

I would say that in Ireland for a web developer you are getting near the top end. I would think that becoming a DBA would be harder than switching to Rails or something like that.

When you talk in per day terms I would assume you are a contractor? That brings it's own baggage. No sick pay, no career development etc. I worked for 5 years as a contract programmer using 4-5 different languages and found I wasn't progressing. That is fine as long as you want to be a programmer at 60. I thought I did but realised I didn't.

Some ideas if you want to increase earning power:

* As someone mentioned would you be open to gaining domain experience i.e. you could become a financial application developer so firms might pay a premium for that knowledge.

* Would you consider moving up the org chart i.e. Manager/CTO. This will open new avenues for your career.

fergalr

Ludo wrote: »

That all sounds fine in theory....but how many employers advertising a java role will even look at an applicant who hasn't got 4/5 years in java. Indeed it makes no sense as and good dev will pick up java in no time but that is not the way the world works.

I bet you didn't read the article I linked?

Maybe you did - but its all about solving business needs rather than just being 'just a programmer' - its worth a read if you haven't.
I think this stuff works in practice, not just theory.

Ludo

fergalr wrote: »

I bet you didn't read the article I linked?

Maybe you did - but its all about solving business needs rather than just being 'just a programmer' - its worth a read if you haven't.
I think this stuff works in practice, not just theory.

I read the excerpt. The article was way tldr. And while I agree with the sentiment, experience shows that employers in general want someone who is a Java dev or a .net dev etc etc. So I simply disagree that it works in reality as you may not even get as far as a face to face. If you get that far then is fine but most of the time your CV will end up in the bin.

AlanS181824

Jesus Christ! I gotta get a job in programming! :pac:

Berserker

AlanS181824 wrote: »

Jesus Christ! I gotta get a job in programming! :pac:

I can assure you that most in the sector are not earning €450 per day. OP is a short term contract worker, I suspect, so the pay is higher than those in permanent employment.

moycullen14

Berserker wrote: »

I can assure you that most in the sector are not earning €450 per day. OP is a short term contract worker, I suspect, so the pay is higher than those in permanent employment.

And I'm reasonably sure most contractors aren't earning that either, especially outside of Dublin

The Corinthian

I suspect you'll find that contract rates are as much, if not more, determined by the industry as the language you're coding in. So if it's money you're after, then specializing in financial services software development will profit you as much as learning any specific language.

Zander1983

The Corinthian wrote: »

I suspect you'll find that contract rates are as much, if not more, determined by the industry as the language you're coding in. So if it's money you're after, then specializing in financial services software development will profit you as much as learning any specific language.

That's roughly true. It's also true the biggest payday is with big enterprise languages, such as C#.NET, which most large multinationals are using, particularly in the financial sector.

I don't agree with the above poster that it doesnt matter what language you're currently into.
Im working for a large US multinational and they wouldn't dream of hiring, say, a C# developer for a UI Developer role - it would simply take too long to get up to speed with whatever javascript libraries the role entails.

fergalr

Zander1983 wrote: »

I don't agree with the above poster that it doesnt matter what language you're currently into.
Im working for a large US multinational and they wouldn't dream of hiring, say, a C# developer for a UI Developer role - it would simply take too long to get up to speed with whatever javascript libraries the role entails.

In the space of programming languages, C# and Javascript are pretty similar. Its probably going to take a new hire longer to learn how the company specific systems work, than how JS and the JS framework du jour work.

Anyway, the JS libraries being used will change in a few years - so its not like you can avoid the time it takes developers to learn new libraries. (I guess you could fire the existing developers and hire replacements that know the new library, and none of the company's existing systems - if you were some sort of dilbert type boss!)

It's much more important to select for wide engineering skill, programming talent etc than it is to select for knowledge of a particular set of libraries, and that's what a good hiring process will do.

You might not hire a systems engineer for a UI developer role - but that's not because they are familiar with different languages: its because there are different wider skillsets at play too. (Knowledge of UX etc)

Zander1983

fergalr wrote: »

In the space of programming languages, C# and Javascript are pretty similar. Its probably going to take a new hire longer to learn how the company specific systems work, than how JS and the JS framework du jour work.

Anyway, the JS libraries being used will change in a few years - so its not like you can avoid the time it takes developers to learn new libraries. (I guess you could fire the existing developers and hire replacements that know the new library, and none of the company's existing systems - if you were some sort of dilbert type boss!)

It's much more important to select for wide engineering skill, programming talent etc than it is to select for knowledge of a particular set of libraries, and that's what a good hiring process will do.

You might not hire a systems engineer for a UI developer role - but that's not because they are familiar with different languages: its because there are different wider skillsets at play too. (Knowledge of UX etc)

This doesn't tend to apply to contract roles though. Most contract roles I've done have been very specific and rarely run beyond 6 months (maybe 1 or 2 3 month roling contracts after initial 6 month period). I dont want to go perm, the rates just dont compare.

Qualitymark

So you're getting roughly €60,000 for a six-month contract, OP? That's plenty to live on, buy a nice house, put some aside for the future. Calm down.

Zander1983

Qualitymark wrote: »

So you're getting roughly €60,000 for a six-month contract, OP? That's plenty to live on, buy a nice house, put some aside for the future. Calm down.

Do I not seem calm? Well dont forget, middle to high income earners in Ireland pay extraordinary levels of tax, the most in Europe bar Denmark I believe (Germany's 41% income tax kicks in at quarter of a million - in Ireland its at 32k). See this article http://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/PressPublicationsdoclib3.nsf/vPages/Newsroom~new-ibec-report-debunking-income-tax-myths-28-09-2014?OpenDocument?OpenDocument#.VGcWBfl_v-s

I may be on good money, but 50% is gone on the most punitive taxes in europe.

Qualitymark

Zander1983 wrote: »

Do I not seem calm? Well dont forget, middle to high income earners in Ireland pay extraordinary levels of tax, the most in Europe bar Denmark I believe (Germany's 41% income tax kicks in at quarter of a million - in Ireland its at 32k). See this article http://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/PressPublicationsdoclib3.nsf/vPages/Newsroom~new-ibec-report-debunking-income-tax-myths-28-09-2014?OpenDocument?OpenDocument#.VGcWBfl_v-s

I may be on good money, but 50% is gone on the most punitive taxes in europe.

Perhaps you should emigrate to Germany?

Zander1983

Qualitymark wrote: »

Perhaps you should emigrate to Germany?

You're adding a lot to this discussion aren't you. The question is: what programming language will pay the big bucks over the next few years? We've already established one answer is Cobol (and I agree with that suggestion). Move along if you cant address the question.

Jim2007

Zander1983 wrote: »

Do I not seem calm? Well dont forget, middle to high income earners in Ireland pay extraordinary levels of tax, the most in Europe bar Denmark I believe (Germany's 41% income tax kicks in at quarter of a million - in Ireland its at 32k). See this article http://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/PressPublicationsdoclib3.nsf/vPages/Newsroom~new-ibec-report-debunking-income-tax-myths-28-09-2014?OpenDocument?OpenDocument#.VGcWBfl_v-s

I may be on good money, but 50% is gone on the most punitive taxes in europe.

It is hard to do any reasonable comparisons this way! For me, effective tax rates give a better picture and so from figures published by KPMG the effective rates on an a salary of $100K are

Germany 28.3%
Denmark 41.2%
Ireland 32%

However you also have to look as social security charges:

Germany 15.5%
Denmark 0.2%
Ireland 4.0%

So total deductions look more like this:

Germany 43.5%
Denmark 41.4%
Ireland 36%

As the saying goes, you can prove anything with stats!

Zander1983

Jim2007 wrote: »

It is hard to do any reasonable comparisons this way! For me, effective tax rates give a better picture and so from figures published by KPMG the effective rates on an a salary of $100K are

Germany 28.3%
Denmark 41.2%
Ireland 32%

However you also have to look as social security charges:

Germany 15.5%
Denmark 0.2%
Ireland 4.0%

So total deductions look more like this:

Germany 43.5%
Denmark 41.4%
Ireland 36%

As the saying goes, you can prove anything with stats!

Those calculations directly deny to conclusion of the IBEC report above. Ok, lets look at it. Lets take 100k which is €79,854.

In Ireland, if you earn that, you would take home €49,199.12 so you are paying a tax percentage of 38.3%.

In Germany, you would take home €53,163.56 ao you are paying a tax percentage of 33.42%.

While we're at it, if you earned that much in the UK (about £63817.97), you would take home €55251.59, so you are paying a tax percentage of 30.8%

We could go through each European country (apart from Denmark), the results look the same. The IBEC report above contains all details. I find it absolutely amazing Ireland is described as a law tax country. It is - for anyone earning below 30k.

But anyway, this is off-topic....

Berserker

Zander1983 wrote: »

I find it absolutely amazing Ireland is described as a law tax country. It is - for anyone earning below 30k.

Middle and upper earners, which covers pretty much every developer in the country, doesn't have a political voice. We are "rich" and "right wing". If you are young, mainframes seems to be a good area to get into. The average age of the teams I have come across is very high. Could be a real gold mine in decades to come; supply and demand.

johnwd

Berserker wrote: »

Middle and upper earners, which covers pretty much every developer in the country, doesn't have a political voice. We are "rich" and "right wing". If you are young, mainframes seems to be a good area to get into. The average age of the teams I have come across is very high. Could be a real gold mine in decades to come; supply and demand.

I wouldn't recommend COBOL for job satisfaction - very hard to get something done quickly in that language. A mixture of COBOL and something else might be very satisfactory. For example code normal programs in COBOL but if there is a data conversion to be done then do that in javascript/vba etc.


Even if we do have low income tax the benefits that accrue to one on paying those taxes are virtually 0. How many of our EU brethren have to:
Pay 60 to see a doctor and then another 50 on top for medicine after
Pay 2000+ for health insurance on top of their PRSI for their family and then pay at least 100 excess every time they access same.
Pay taxes till they are 68 to pay the guaranteed pensions of others who can retire in their 50s and 60s.
Pay unfair and as near as damn it retrospective taxes on their own pension pots going towards retirement.
Pay what MUST SURELY BE the highest motor tax rates in Europe yet have the lowest population density (and hence fug all public transport - which has also gone up 40% or some such during the depression!).
OH - and if you are a contractor on that nice daily rate paying high taxes - have NO right to social welfare.
If your name is Google or Apple then we're a low tax economy allright! Irelands Tax slogan should be "The commuter pays".
Sorry for hijacking this thread.

Manach

My own 2c is that there are languages out there that pay higher. But then this rate differential will attract new entrants either from with the EU market or via industry pressure to liberalise visa rules (as Minister Burton has recently done). Which then creates a gap in other skills, and so the Schumpeter type cycle is driven.

The Corinthian

Zander1983 wrote: »

I find it absolutely amazing Ireland is described as a law tax country. It is - for anyone earning below 30k.

Ireland has unfortunately inherited a culture and economy that predates the Celtic Tiger, where living off the fat of the land (Dole and social welfare) was considered an acceptable lifestyle, and where inevitably the cost of maintaining a significant proportion of the population who are permanently in receipt of such payments ends up being left to anyone who earns even above a modest salary by Western standards. We're kind of trapped in this situation, I'm afraid, as it is seen as a basic right by some to be maintained indefinitely by the state, with some families literally never having held down a job for multiple generations.

Overall, if you consider tax, cost of living and salary, Ireland does not have a very attractive long-term package to offer (before we consider value for money for those taxes we would pay). A good rule of thumb is to consider how much you'd theoretically save as a percentage of your salary, taking into account costs, taxation and salary. If you do you'll find Ireland comes pretty low on the list of OECD countries.

johnwd wrote: »

OH - and if you are a contractor on that nice daily rate paying high taxes - have NO right to social welfare.

Not entirely true. When contracting, most are directors of the contracting umbrella companies that they use to facilitate their activities and may elect not to pay PRSI - if going through a contracting service or accountant, this is the default position as it saves you tax and makes them look good, but you can choose to pay your contributions, and thus be eligible for unemployment benefit, if you wish.

Whether you would bother is another thing. Unlike most of Europe, unemployment insurance in Ireland does not reflect what your lost income was. You just get the same as some scumbag who's never worked a day in their life. And if you have less that 20k in the bank it makes no difference anyway.

Indeed, if you're on 100k p.a. as a contractor, you'll have to pay 4k to qualify for a maximum 9 months of benefit - which means you'll get the full 7.3k p.a. (presuming single with no kids) without deductions. Even if your assets were such that you'd not get a penny without contributions, you'll have paid double what you'd get back within two years. In short, you're better off putting what you'd pay in PRSI into a rainy day fund in most cases.

Pensions are even worse, as you can easily fail to qualify for a contributory one if you don't pay stamps or work abroad for a few years. Even if you do qualify, the way things are going you simply cannot count on a state pension in 20 or 30 years time - if viewed from the cold perspective of an investment, they qualify as frankly little more as junk status - without a particularly high return. Not that a private pension is much better as this will undoubtedly end up raided too, if not eventually nationalized.

Regrettably, I came to the conclusion in my mid thirties that Ireland is a great country to live in when you're starting your career and on a low salary. Or if you're unemployed. But once you reach a certain level, there's few options for either career advancement and you end up penalized for any financial success.

So I left.

Zander1983

The Corinthian wrote: »

Ireland has unfortunately inherited a culture and economy that predates the Celtic Tiger, where living off the fat of the land (Dole and social welfare) was considered an acceptable lifestyle, and where inevitably the cost of maintaining a significant proportion of the population who are permanently in receipt of such payments ends up being left to anyone who earns even above a modest salary by Western standards. We're kind of trapped in this situation, I'm afraid, as it is seen as a basic right by some to be maintained indefinitely by the state, with some families literally never having held down a job for multiple generations.

Overall, if you consider tax, cost of living and salary, Ireland does not have a very attractive long-term package to offer (before we consider value for money for those taxes we would pay). A good rule of thumb is to consider how much you'd theoretically save as a percentage of your salary, taking into account costs, taxation and salary. If you do you'll find Ireland comes pretty low on the list of OECD countries.

Not entirely true. When contracting, most are directors of the contracting umbrella companies that they use to facilitate their activities and may elect not to pay PRSI - if going through a contracting service or accountant, this is the default position as it saves you tax and makes them look good, but you can choose to pay your contributions, and thus be eligible for unemployment benefit, if you wish.

Whether you would bother is another thing. Unlike most of Europe, unemployment insurance in Ireland does not reflect what your lost income was. You just get the same as some scumbag who's never worked a day in their life. And if you have less that 20k in the bank it makes no difference anyway.

Indeed, if you're on 100k p.a. as a contractor, you'll have to pay 4k to qualify for a maximum 9 months of benefit - which means you'll get the full 7.3k p.a. (presuming single with no kids) without deductions. Even if your assets were such that you'd not get a penny without contributions, you'll have paid double what you'd get back within two years. In short, you're better off putting what you'd pay in PRSI into a rainy day fund in most cases.

Pensions are even worse, as you can easily fail to qualify for a contributory one if you don't pay stamps or work abroad for a few years. Even if you do qualify, the way things are going you simply cannot count on a state pension in 20 or 30 years time - if viewed from the cold perspective of an investment, they qualify as frankly little more as junk status - without a particularly high return. Not that a private pension is much better as this will undoubtedly end up raided too, if not eventually nationalized.

Regrettably, I came to the conclusion in my mid thirties that Ireland is a great country to live in when you're starting your career and on a low salary. Or if you're unemployed. But once you reach a certain level, there's few options for either career advancement and you end up penalized for any financial success.

So I left.

I agree whole-heartedly with all of this. It's truly depressing. Unfortuneately, I dont have the option to move, too many ties at home. Where'd you move?

The Corinthian

Zander1983 wrote: »

Where'd you move?

Look to the left, under join date.

DublinWriter

My own 2c is that it's about technologies and platforms, not languages.

I'm nearly 27 years in the business and programming/development on the whole is becoming a degraded skill.

Stuff comes and goes out of fashion, I remember SAP R/3 was the holy grail for contracting in the 90's, then client/server, then n-tier, next it was Java, now it's MVC.

The biggest earners I'm seeing right now in the game are architects.