** ATHLETICS/RUNNING FEEDBACK THREAD**

pconn062

So we've decided to start a feedback thread to get some opinions from the users on the Athletics/Running forum in general. There have been a few issues recently and they have spilled over into multiple threads so the time is right for this. We recognize it's not easy to keep everyone happy all the time, but hopefully we're getting the balance right, taking into account site rules and protocols as well as the wishes of regulars in the forum. So, what is this thread for?

* Tell us what you think about the forum, the general content, how you think the forum is being modded etc.

* Any issues you feel that need to be raised about the content

* How do you think the forum looks at first impression to a new user?

All comments are welcome, both positive and negative but please try to keep it constructive. Also, please don't raise issues about specific incidents, eg "There was this user and he said this to me, and that's not fair" or "I got warning this one time, at band camp...". Try to keep it more general themes.

Also some suggestions about how it could be improved would be welcome, rather than just "this place sucks now :mad:"

Will leave this thread open for a week or two and then gather all the feedback and try to put some of it into action.

Over to you....

Pacing Mule

My 2 cents worth. It's a really difficult thing to do. Run a forum like this within the constraints of boards.ie

First off the forum isn't big enough for the amount of people using it. There is one general area trying to cover every aspect from pure novices to the top end of amateurs, elite athletics, coaching as well as providing off topic threads like the rant and rave. The result then is that if you are for example only interested in the business end of athletics your interests are swamped with relative drivel. Problem here though is because this is a sub forum of a larger board it's not practical to have 7 or 8 discussion forums either.

The atmosphere here lately is toxic. It feels like a football match where the referee has completely lost control, it's been semi restored but now the ref is stamping down too much and pissing off the players and supporters. Closing threads that didn't need to be, carding posts left right and centre just leads to more frustration. That shouldn't be taken as a personal dig at the mods here. I'm sure it's been an absolute nightmare recently trying to strike a balance. For me it's an awful shame that without going into specifics one series of events managed to drag so many people into what ended up as a wrestling style battle royal that has continued long after the original bullsh!tter had left the ring. We've had long term excellent contributors have their integrity questioned and it be allowed to stay up on the board too long or without being snipped at all. We've had physical threats, allegations of bullying etc being thrown out and all it does is swamp the forum with negativity. We've also seen what was clearly jovial banter being blown up into major rows and offence taking that took everything out of proportion and again escalations on both sides from there. I know that is very difficult to turn around whilst modding and trying not to p!ss people off but it has to be put to bed. Maybe a line in the sand needs to be drawn - a forum wide announcement / post that people are being asked to start afresh and get back to basics, welcome back those who left under cloudy circumstances if they want and let everyone move on. Those who don't want to move on can take the exit. Not trying to drag up old ground with this - just saying that the fallout from the old ground can't be ignored either.

Negativity - the rant thread is well and good as an off topic thread for general life woes. But too many rants are forum related, sniping at other users and mods etc. Considering that the rant thread is squeezing out a valuable line in an overcrowded forum and is just negativity I think it does more harm than good. Again if there was a separate off topic forum in itself the rant thread would be a great thing but stuck in the middle of the general forum it's not doing any favours.

Tables - clutter up the forum. DCM thread in particular a prime example. Having to scroll down 10 huge tables on each page is a pain in the ass. Especially when people quote the wrong one from 2 pages back making everyone else repost their update later on. Tables should be managed better. Google docs or similar.

Novices / new runners. I'd suggest a seperate coaching forum for new runners / those seeking help and advice. A place where the seasoned and experienced members who want to help out can and at the same time leaving a core forum for discussion about the slightly more serious end of things up to elite athletics. The mentored novice thread for example is a great success every year. That concept should be expanded into its own little forum. Take the couch to 5k concept (I know it has it's own thread) but do something similar every few months with someone steering a new group through the programme. Have a section for discussion for improvers, those looking to try shorter distances, new to track etc.

In short I think the place needs a reboot and refresh. An off topic forum if possible but if not then removal of the negative off topic stuff. A restructure of the sub forums to allow a discussion area that won't alienate those looking for a serious debate and at the same time an area for newer runners to come together and help each other.

As I said at the start it's a tall order to turn things around here but in the face of what could be stiff competition from a startup rival forum that already has or will be able to implement all of the above I would say time is of the essence here if you want to turn around the forum here. Fair play for starting the feedback thread and for being willing to implement changes that may be suggested.


PS - maybe sticky this in a while but not now. As it is stickies are usually ignored and missed. I thought the thread had been deleted for a min. This thread will no doubt stay on the main page of its own accord if left to run for a bit.

pconn062

Pacing Mule wrote: »

My 2 cents worth. It's a really difficult thing to do. Run a forum like this within the constraints of boards.ie

First off the forum isn't big enough for the amount of people using it. There is one general area trying to cover every aspect from pure novices to the top end of amateurs, elite athletics, coaching as well as providing off topic threads like the rant and rave. The result then is that if you are for example only interested in the business end of athletics your interests are swamped with relative drivel. Problem here though is because this is a sub forum of a larger board it's not practical to have 7 or 8 discussion forums either.

The atmosphere here lately is toxic. It feels like a football match where the referee has completely lost control, it's been semi restored but now the ref is stamping down too much and pissing off the players and supporters. Closing threads that didn't need to be, carding posts left right and centre just leads to more frustration. That shouldn't be taken as a personal dig at the mods here. I'm sure it's been an absolute nightmare recently trying to strike a balance. For me it's an awful shame that without going into specifics one series of events managed to drag so many people into what ended up as a wrestling style battle royal that has continued long after the original bullsh!tter had left the ring. We've had long term excellent contributors have their integrity questioned and it be allowed to stay up on the board too long or without being snipped at all. We've had physical threats, allegations of bullying etc being thrown out and all it does is swamp the forum with negativity. We've also seen what was clearly jovial banter being blown up into major rows and offence taking that took everything out of proportion and again escalations on both sides from there. I know that is very difficult to turn around whilst modding and trying not to p!ss people off but it has to be put to bed. Maybe a line in the sand needs to be drawn - a forum wide announcement / post that people are being asked to start afresh and get back to basics, welcome back those who left under cloudy circumstances if they want and let everyone move on. Those who don't want to move on can take the exit. Not trying to drag up old ground with this - just saying that the fallout from the old ground can't be ignored either.

Negativity - the rant thread is well and good as an off topic thread for general life woes. But too many rants are forum related, sniping at other users and mods etc. Considering that the rant thread is squeezing out a valuable line in an overcrowded forum and is just negativity I think it does more harm than good. Again if there was a separate off topic forum in itself the rant thread would be a great thing but stuck in the middle of the general forum it's not doing any favours.

Tables - clutter up the forum. DCM thread in particular a prime example. Having to scroll down 10 huge tables on each page is a pain in the ass. Especially when people quote the wrong one from 2 pages back making everyone else repost their update later on. Tables should be managed better. Google docs or similar.

Novices / new runners. I'd suggest a seperate coaching forum for new runners / those seeking help and advice. A place where the seasoned and experienced members who want to help out can and at the same time leaving a core forum for discussion about the slightly more serious end of things up to elite athletics. The mentored novice thread for example is a great success every year. That concept should be expanded into its own little forum. Take the couch to 5k concept (I know it has it's own thread) but do something similar every few months with someone steering a new group through the programme. Have a section for discussion for improvers, those looking to try shorter distances, new to track etc.

In short I think the place needs a reboot and refresh. An off topic forum if possible but if not then removal of the negative off topic stuff. A restructure of the sub forums to allow a discussion area that won't alienate those looking for a serious debate and at the same time an area for newer runners to come together and help each other.

As I said at the start it's a tall order to turn things around here but in the face of what could be stiff competition from a startup rival forum that already has or will be able to implement all of the above I would say time is of the essence here if you want to turn around the forum here. Fair play for starting the feedback thread and for being willing to implement changes that may be suggested.


PS - maybe sticky this in a while but not now. As it is stickies are usually ignored and missed. I thought the thread had been deleted for a min. This thread will no doubt stay on the main page of its own accord if left to run for a bit.

Some good points and will come back to some of them when I get back from training. But just for now, unless a post is reported then we don't always see it, Mod's don't read every thread. Also, regarding the time-frame, being a Mod is a volunteer role. We all have jobs and we get around to things as soon as we can. Personally I don't work at a computer so during the day my access is limited. We try to clear things us ASAP but it's not always possible.

Pacing Mule

pconn062 wrote: »

Some good points and will come back to some of them when I get back from training. But just for now, unless a post is reported then we don't always see it, Mod's don't read every thread. Also, regarding the time-frame, being a Mod is a volunteer role. We all have jobs and we get around to things as soon as we can. Personally I don't work at a computer so during the day my access is limited. We try to clear things us ASAP but it's not always possible.

I do very much appreciate that. And again I wasn't having a go at the mod team at all. To be honest a forum like this normally doesn't need that much minding / modding. Only recently did the more unsavoury stuff creep in. There's not a lot of point for example in saying get more mods in. Sort out the underlying issues and there is no need.

pconn062

Pacing Mule wrote: »

My 2 cents worth. It's a really difficult thing to do. Run a forum like this within the constraints of boards.ie

First off the forum isn't big enough for the amount of people using it. There is one general area trying to cover every aspect from pure novices to the top end of amateurs, elite athletics, coaching as well as providing off topic threads like the rant and rave. The result then is that if you are for example only interested in the business end of athletics your interests are swamped with relative drivel. Problem here though is because this is a sub forum of a larger board it's not practical to have 7 or 8 discussion forums either.

Must admit, it's never something I considered as an issue, for example letsrun is a much bigger site and manages with just four different sections. But as you say, not much we can do about this within the design of the site (except maybe cull the amount of users!)

The atmosphere here lately is toxic. It feels like a football match where the referee has completely lost control, it's been semi restored but now the ref is stamping down too much and pissing off the players and supporters. Closing threads that didn't need to be, carding posts left right and centre just leads to more frustration. That shouldn't be taken as a personal dig at the mods here. I'm sure it's been an absolute nightmare recently trying to strike a balance. For me it's an awful shame that without going into specifics one series of events managed to drag so many people into what ended up as a wrestling style battle royal that has continued long after the original bullsh!tter had left the ring. We've had long term excellent contributors have their integrity questioned and it be allowed to stay up on the board too long or without being snipped at all. We've had physical threats, allegations of bullying etc being thrown out and all it does is swamp the forum with negativity. We've also seen what was clearly jovial banter being blown up into major rows and offence taking that took everything out of proportion and again escalations on both sides from there. I know that is very difficult to turn around whilst modding and trying not to p!ss people off but it has to be put to bed. Maybe a line in the sand needs to be drawn - a forum wide announcement / post that people are being asked to start afresh and get back to basics, welcome back those who left under cloudy circumstances if they want and let everyone move on. Those who don't want to move on can take the exit. Not trying to drag up old ground with this - just saying that the fallout from the old ground can't be ignored either.

That whole incident was pretty unpleasant with posters on both sides being at fault (this is the part a lot of people seem to miss). I don't think it's fair to say the Mod's are "carding all round", posters on both sides who stepped out of line got warnings/cards. IMO, speaking as a poster, not a Mod, that whole thing was pretty stupid and got blown out of all proportion. Some people took the internet too seriously and started throwing the toys out of the pram. Also, regarding the jovial banter, was it banter to some is serious business to others. There was a time a few weeks ago where some of the regulars were making comments about women on a particular thread, this was regarded as "banter" by them, but it was offensive to others. Tough to strike a balance but I hope we can put the whole debacle behind us now. Regarding posters closing their accounts, it was a shame to lose some good posters but these things happen some time. Maybe they had other personal reasons for closing accounts, these things go in cycles, a lot of the posters who were here when I started posting aren't here anymore replaced by a new generation.

Negativity - the rant thread is well and good as an off topic thread for general life woes. But too many rants are forum related, sniping at other users and mods etc. Considering that the rant thread is squeezing out a valuable line in an overcrowded forum and is just negativity I think it does more harm than good. Again if there was a separate off topic forum in itself the rant thread would be a great thing but stuck in the middle of the general forum it's not doing any favours.

Agree with you here, again as a poster, not a Mod I would like to see it closed. But it's very popular with some people and there would need to be general consensus to close it. Can you imagine the shit-storm if one of the Mod's stepped in and closed that thread?

Tables - clutter up the forum. DCM thread in particular a prime example. Having to scroll down 10 huge tables on each page is a pain in the ass. Especially when people quote the wrong one from 2 pages back making everyone else repost their update later on. Tables should be managed better. Google docs or similar.

Fair enough, I don't read the DCM thread so never really noticed this. I know things like the 1,000 mile challenge and now google-doced so maybe something similar can be organised for that thread next year (someone more technically minded that me will have to do it though) .

Novices / new runners. I'd suggest a seperate coaching forum for new runners / those seeking help and advice. A place where the seasoned and experienced members who want to help out can and at the same time leaving a core forum for discussion about the slightly more serious end of things up to elite athletics. The mentored novice thread for example is a great success every year. That concept should be expanded into its own little forum. Take the couch to 5k concept (I know it has it's own thread) but do something similar every few months with someone steering a new group through the programme. Have a section for discussion for improvers, those looking to try shorter distances, new to track etc.

Not a bad idea, not sure what the story is with getting new sub-forums but if there was enough interest in this it's something I could look into. I would just be afraid that with another sub-forum, the main forum might die a death. The main forum is not that busy.

In short I think the place needs a reboot and refresh. An off topic forum if possible but if not then removal of the negative off topic stuff. A restructure of the sub forums to allow a discussion area that won't alienate those looking for a serious debate and at the same time an area for newer runners to come together and help each other.

See this is difficult for us, as you said yourself posters get annoyed when Mod's go around deleting/editing posts so it would be hard to delete the negative off topic stuff. On one hand people want less mod intervention for the "banter" but then want specific stuff removed, it's tough to balance it without seen to be heavy-handed.

As I said at the start it's a tall order to turn things around here but in the face of what could be stiff competition from a startup rival forum that already has or will be able to implement all of the above I would say time is of the essence here if you want to turn around the forum here. Fair play for starting the feedback thread and for being willing to implement changes that may be suggested.

Boards.ie is a privately owned site, we have to operate within the site wide rules. There are always rival sites, that's a good thing. I think it's important for people not to overreact here, sure there have been a few issues recently but it's not the end of the world and the forum is still mostly functioning quite well (IMO), just look at DCM Monday, that was a great day to be on here seeing people hit their targets etc.

PS - maybe sticky this in a while but not now. As it is stickies are usually ignored and missed. I thought the thread had been deleted for a min. This thread will no doubt stay on the main page of its own accord if left to run for a bit.

Thanks for the comments, that is exactly why we started this thread!

Sacksian

To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with the forum. If anything, it seems more successful than ever. The training logs section is so busy that it's hard to even find logs if they haven't been updated in a couple of days.

Apart from people saying it's going downhill and that there's a problem, I can't point to any indicator as evidence of diminishing popularity, usefulness, discussion, etc.

As long as I've been lurking here, there has always been a massive cohort effect - so you had large groups training for similar goals/races and they became the community, to a certain degree. These groups tended to train together and see each other outside the forum. But, the composition of, for example, the 2012 community was different to the 2009 group, etc, etc.

As posters progress, some are less interested in having the same discussion over and over again. Some leave. Some complain that there are fewer threads relevant to them. Some complain that it's gone downhill, etc, etc. Some continue contributing.

But, in all honesty, to me, it seems like that there are more and more areas covered than ever before - quite a few people doing ultra, some at the highest level, mountain runners, a lot more 2:3* (and faster) marathon aspirants than ever before, etc, etc. A lot more club runners posting regularly in the training logs. I think there were quite a few participating in the graded meets last year too (and probably encouraging others to think about it next year).

So, now, there seems to be enough posts + posters for multiple communities within the forum. And I think this was a significant factor in the recent "unpleasantness".

My only criticism on this is that I think the mods should have intervened earlier to enforce the "don't be a dick" rule and nip the antagonistic, aggressive posting in the bud.

And if I could make one specific suggestion it would be that training logs should be afforded a certain amount of protection from baiting, threadspoiling. The soccer forum also has quite a good policy against crossthread baiting that would have been quite useful recently (i.e. slagging posts from one thread/log in a different thread/log).

menoscemo

I agree with a lot of what P_M has said but I would not like to see the likes of the rant thread closed, however I do think it should have more defined rules and people should be made to stick to them. I was disappointed personally that the spat thread was closed but I can see that it had to be at the time, given that it had become a totally off topic bitchfest/argument. I think we need to have a certain amount of banter on the forum to keep it interesting. The great thing about this forum is that lot's of us know each other as we meet/train/race/drink together, and lots of us have met through the forum. To crack down on banter under the guise of some of the things are sexist/racist/discrimintaory is ridiculous. I think it is clear as day to most clear minded people what is sexist/racist/discrimintaory and what is just a bit of banter. I think the forum is more that welcoming to new users but all new users should also be expected to get to know the etiquette in each forum too.

My solution to the above would be not to let thread descend into arguments in the first place. Before a thread get's totally off topic and dragged down people should be clearly and publically warned not to let it happen. I see on other forums Mods often leave clear and obvious threats to posters/styles of posting that leave no doubt. Things like
(username) do not post on this thread again or you will be banned/warned
Please stop posting about xyz, next user to do so will be banned/warned etc.

I think it is important to let people know where they stand and what they can/cannot do or say otherwise then thread become anarchy and people get annoyed when they get a ban/warning/infraction because they perceive the other person was equally at fault.

I notice that the mods here often snip or delete posts and (as far as I know) PM users about what was right/wrong with their post. In my opinion it would be much better to leave the post (where possible) and publically state that the poster was infracted or warned. That way other posters can see clearly what is or isn't acceptable. IMO warnings/cards should not be hidden.

I got myself a yellow card a few months ago, while I disagreed with it at the time; in the cold light of today I can see it was justified. The mod PM that accompanied the warning stated that it was the second time I had done something, but I think it would have been better to pull me up the first time as I hadn't realised (mid argument) what i did was unacceptable.
However both my posts were deleted so no-one could see I was warned and hence loads of others kept posting in the same style. I think it is better for the forum that everyone can see such things are deemed unacceptable, also for the aggrieved party to see the mods took action otherwise he/she just thinks they got away with it.

Another thing Is that there are some obvious trolls who contribute nothing to the forum yet are still allowed to post here today, I think that such posters should be cracked down on as they have no positive influence on the forum.

Anyway guys, that's my initial feedback I think you mods do a great job and it is totally thankless at times ( I wouldn't have the patience for it). My only advice is basically to be a bit more strict initally as I think that would save you a lot of time and headache in general.

Murph_D

There's not much wrong here, in my opinion. Sure, some people get offended by, or perhaps more accurately, object to the sentiment of, some of the "banter". I've been in this position myself and unintentionally escalated one of the so-called toxic threads. But then again, some of the banterers get equally offended/objectionable when they're called on it. Both sides have gone too far on occasion. Some people just post stupid stuff to troll or have a laugh. In general the mods seem to do a good job and most people can see that. There's been some public mod-baiting but not a lot. In general, the forum seems to function like most other forums I've been part of over the years. Sure, there are cliques and elites, and these change over time. It's all natural and it reflects how things tend to work offline too. What's different here is that we all run and a lot of us bump into each other at races, meet up for drinks etc, so that actually acts as a brake on some of the bull****. Which is good.

I don't think there's a need for sub forums. The big threads act like mini forums in their own right and they're easy to avoid or ignore if you're not into them. Spat and rant threads help people blow off steam and keep a good bit of the crap out of the more focused threads. Which is also good.

Keep up the good work. The toxicity has been overstated, I think. There are lots of decent people on here and I'm glad to have met a lot of them, in and out of the "real" world. There are also a few knobs that I will avoid. That's the way of it!

ThePiedPiper

Like sacksian said, I personally don't think there's a massive amount wrong with the forum. Over the few years I've been posting, a few people have said at various times it's going downhill, etc. posters come and go, what was relevant to me in 2010 isn't quite as relevant now, so as a fairly casual user, I probably contribute less than a couple of years ago.

The training logs are possibly overly successful. Most if the elder statesmen of the boards keep most of the training discussion and debate on the logs, excellent stuff that would not be found unless you're following that particular thread. I'm 100% guilty of this myself, but I did try to keep the sub 2:50 thread alive with little success. The main forum suffers due to the sub fora being so successful. Maybe if something looks like it may be if significant enough interest, a mod could suggest moving it into the main forum? This journey generally only goes the other way.

The events threads are generally very good, especially on race day. DCM thread possibly too much of a behemoth so I don't agree with the policy of dumping all things dcm related in the one place, it's not user friendly.

I think you mods do a very good job, and it must be damn difficult. However, some 'banter' a few weeks ago was ridiculous, and a lot of problems could maybe be avoided if obvious goading of posters was clamped down upon. I'll not get into it here now but a couple if years back, a mod at the time was taking a very cheap shot at me on a thread I hadn't even posted on, and it was not banter.

Anyway, I see the issues as minor, and nothing that's really new. It's the responsibility of the users to have an interesting forum with relevant threads.

RayCun

I don't think there's much wrong with the structure of the forum. If we were having this discussion six months ago I don't think people would have said there was an urgent need for new subfora or other changes - the problems we've seen have been because of bad behaviour imo, not something intrinsic to boards.

A forum for 'newbies' or a forum for 'experts' - I don't think we need to separate either out. The newbie threads benefit from experts dropping in and giving advice, the expert threads are an education for everyone else. Is one drowning out the other?

As far as the content of the forum goes, a lot of it is up to posters, not the mods. If you think there should be a thread on x, start a thread on x. If there should be more posts about y, post more about y. If you think there should be a google doc for marathon predictions and results instead of a table, set it up yourself. None of this is the job of the mods.

I think the rant and spat threads were a bad idea in the end. I'm glad to have met and drank with so many people from the forum in the real world, and to have made friends from the forum, but you can't reproduce a pub table in an open forum. If I say something to meno, digger and quirky over a pint, they know me, they can see my expression and hear my tone of voice, they will interpret it a certain way. Say the same thing here in a thread on the main forum and the audience is different, nuances are lost, the meaning can change. Plus, it has to be said, you might say something in a pub, and no-one will call you on it because they don't want to start an argument or appear over-sensitive. You might get called on it on the internet where those things don't apply. Just because no-one objected in the pub doesn't mean it was okay. There were too many posts where people had the attitude that "I'm talking to my friends, they're not offended, so if you are offended you are the problem" - but if you're posting in an open thread in a forum full of people you don't know, you are not just talking to your friends.

pconn062

menoscemo wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what P_M has said but I would not like to see the likes of the rant thread closed, however I do think it should have more defined rules and people should be made to stick to them. I was disappointed personally that the spat thread was closed but I can see that it had to be at the time, given that it had become a totally off topic bitchfest/argument. I think we need to have a certain amount of banter on the forum to keep it interesting. The great thing about this forum is that lot's of us know each other as we meet/train/race/drink together, and lots of us have met through the forum. To crack down on banter under the guise of some of the things are sexist/racist/discrimintaory is ridiculous. I think it is clear as day to most clear minded people what is sexist/racist/discrimintaory and what is just a bit of banter. I think the forum is more that welcoming to new users but all new users should also be expected to get to know the etiquette in each forum too.

My solution to the above would be not to let thread descend into arguments in the first place. Before a thread get's totally off topic and dragged down people should be clearly and publically warned not to let it happen. I see on other forums Mods often leave clear and obvious threats to posters/styles of posting that leave no doubt. Things like
(username) do not post on this thread again or you will be banned/warned
Please stop posting about xyz, next user to do so will be banned/warned etc.

I think it is important to let people know where they stand and what they can/cannot do or say otherwise then thread become anarchy and people get annoyed when they get a ban/warning/infraction because they perceive the other person was equally at fault.

I notice that the mods here often snip or delete posts and (as far as I know) PM users about what was right/wrong with their post. In my opinion it would be much better to leave the post (where possible) and publically state that the poster was infracted or warned. That way other posters can see clearly what is or isn't acceptable. IMO warnings/cards should not be hidden.

I got myself a yellow card a few months ago, while I disagreed with it at the time; in the cold light of today I can see it was justified. The mod PM that accompanied the warning stated that it was the second time I had done something, but I think it would have been better to pull me up the first time as I hadn't realised (mid argument) what i did was unacceptable.
However both my posts were deleted so no-one could see I was warned and hence loads of others kept posting in the same style. I think it is better for the forum that everyone can see such things are deemed unacceptable, also for the aggrieved party to see the mods took action otherwise he/she just thinks they got away with it.

Another thing Is that there are some obvious trolls who contribute nothing to the forum yet are still allowed to post here today, I think that such posters should be cracked down on as they have no positive influence on the forum.

Anyway guys, that's my initial feedback I think you mods do a great job and it is totally thankless at times ( I wouldn't have the patience for it). My only advice is basically to be a bit more strict initally as I think that would save you a lot of time and headache in general.

Appreciate the comments N, interesting what you say about making the Mod actions a little bit more obvious, I think it's a good idea. I can only speak for myself but I always tried to keep my Mod actions minimal, I don't even like the posting in bold thing. I suppose I never liked the whole barging into threads with MOD MESSAGE ARRGGHHHH, but maybe there is such a thing of going to far the other way. Something I will definitely look at.

Cabaal

Gota say I also think that some of the mod actions should be abit more public, this allows other users to know whats not ok in future.

I've reported posts in the past and posts are often just deleted with no comments, the same posts in other forums on boards would earn you a very public warning, infraction or ban.

Obviously every mod has there own way of doing things but its perhaps something that needs to be maybe reviewed as its a good way of all users of the forum to learn when the line is crossed on something. (yes its outlined in the charter etc, but sometimes people forget )

Gota say I prefer the use of BOLD text for mod actions as it makes mod actions and the mod posting as a user completely separate and removes any confusion for other posters, but again each mod has their own preference on that one

Pacing Mule

Big +1 to the mod action comments mentioned by Meno and Cabaal.

Kurt Godel

Ray is spot on, this current introspection is down to bad behaviour of posters who should know better.

The mods are doing a very good job. Its up to posters to deliver content, but there's a lot of crap that gets posted in the OT threads. The Rant thread is useless at this stage, its almost like people wake up and wonder about what they can post that pisses them off. That infects the place with a prevading sense of crankiness, and is useless on a forum that should 99% be about running and athletics. I'd suggest the mods only concern themselves with conversation if its AR related, otherwise if its causing you hassle and its not directly related to AR, ban the feck out of whoever is spouting nonsense, whether its Walter Mitty posters or Multi-username trolling heroes.

Oh, and nuke anyone who gets the hump and uses the word "elitist" as a put-down to those who thinks a race is more about trying to catch the guy ahead, and not about a useless finishers medal. "Elitist" is a good word, there's a natural hierarchy in races.

Tom Joad

Would agree with the others that are saying that there is not a lot wrong with the forum and in particular the forum structure. The crap that has happened here in the last while has though turned things toxic and hopefully this thread will clear the air and allow us to draw a line in the sand and move on. At the end of the day it is only the internet!!

I have to say I enjoyed the ranting/raving thread but think they have now reached the end of their lifes - they were contributing to the bad vibes here over the last while. Would agree with the idea of an off-topic type thread though.

I don't know if it's too late or if it's possible but we've lost a few very good posters lately because of what's being going on and the place will be worse because of that - if there was someway they could come back that would be a very positive move. However, I do respect their decision to leave here and if they feel they want to stay away.

Unfortunately, the place does need to be more heavily modded (for the next while anyway). The mods here (past and present) do and have done a great job and the forum never required heavy mod action. However, this has changed and imho a more visible modding is required - maybe more mods are needed on board to share the load. This might help nip things in the bud before they develop into more serious spats. Posters do need to realise that the mods are not omnipresent and can't see every post. There seems to be a reluctance to report posts on this forum that doesn't happen on other forums - again this is probably for historical reasons as it was never really needed in the past. We all though have a responsibility to alert the mods to posts that need action if we want to see the forum to work.

Ultimately it's all our responsibilities to make the forum better by starting relevant threads and contributing to topics.

Gavlor

Just temporarily breaking my self imposed exile in its infancy as I've been waiting for a feedback thread.

It is obvious that the community itself is currently thriving. However, different individuals are looking for different things from the running forum.

With this in mind I feel that one of the easiest and quickest fixes would be to have a standalone a/r off topic thread that contains the likes of the spat thread, rant, rave, football, boobs, balls, whatever. It would free up the main forum and allow it to serve it's initial purpose, a forum for individuals that are interested in discussing all things a/r related. That way people that don't like the banter, craic, nonsense that goes on can easily avoid it. And those that like that sort of stuff can continue with business as usual.

Going an extra step would be to have an explicit set of rules for the a/r forum and for any off topic posts to be moved when reported by members whilst continuing the current approach to moderating the new off topic forum.

It works for different forums where the level of trolling is on a different planet to ours.

Best of luck mods, it's a thankless, but vital job.

laura_ac3

As a relative newcomer I mostly find the place pretty welcoming.

I would agree with Sacksian that if issues or disagreements start to arise perhaps be more strict on logs and threads being used to bait or give out about people - that sort of stuff can be visible for all to see and doesn't contribute to a good atmosphere.

I think consistency is also important. Scenarios whereby certain types of comments, trolling or actions are a laugh as they're from a well known poster/someone known in real life but if they were from someone else they may not be considered acceptable. Similar to the "banter" element - of course when you have people that know each other you're going to get groups and in jokes and comments - our novice thread certainly did. And for the most part it's all fine. But just because you know some users that doesn't necessarily mean people can say whatever they like as banter without opposing views - this is a public forum for all. This can be a hard one and a balancing act, and yes it may go wrong at times. I suppose that's where you hope common sense will prevail and a bit of perspective I guess!

I have to say I've learned loads over the last while and everyone I've interacted with has been more than helpful, so my experience is certainly more positive than negative. These are just my comments as an outsider to many here and to recent events.

RacoonQueen

Sacksian wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with the forum. If anything, it seems more successful than ever. The training logs section is so busy that it's hard to even find logs if they haven't been updated in a couple of days.

Apart from people saying it's going downhill and that there's a problem, I can't point to any indicator as evidence of diminishing popularity, usefulness, discussion, etc.

This.

I missed a lot of the recent crap. Mostly because the poster who was the 'centre' I guess, of it posted stuff that I wasn't interested in when they started posting so I never really read any of their posts. The whole thing is really bizarre to me

I don't like the rant / rave threads. Off topic thread is grand.

I don't think there is any need for a new sub forum as main forum isn't very busy anyway. People complaining about 10k by debate etc threads falling down the forum annoys me...there are not many threads on the main forum that are numerous pages long. The main page of the forum is fresh. Threads like 10k by debate etc will die off unless there are a large number of posters who run pretty much nothing but 10ks

tldr; the forum is fine as it is some people may need to check their egos though (I don't really know as I don't pay attention to stuff that does not interest me)

Clearlier

Most of us have an incomplete view of all that has gone on over the past few weeks. Most of us are not happy that a few valued posters have left because of it.

I think that it was a very tough situation to mod given the history of this forum where we're known in other boards fora for being patient, friendly and approachable. We're simply unaccustomed to intentional bad behaviour.

I don't think that the structure of the forum needs to change. Sure we get busy around DCM but even then it's not that busy. More sub-fora would IMO be more likely to kill the forum than cure any problem.

Sadly I think that the style of modding may need to change in the short term at least. Public explanations of what's acceptable and what's not would probably help for a little while. Sure, we're not children but some of the behaviour has been remarkably childish.

I see modding as being a little bit like refereeing. When something happens you aim to be quick, authoritative and right/consistent in your decision making. I'm concerned about the last part of that trio at the moment. I do think that another mod would be a good thing ideally someone with experience of modding a tough forum.

gerard_65

This forum is suppose to have four mods, however one hasn't been around for years but is still listed as active. It would make modding easier with four active.
At least one female mod. Some problems have been caused by males getting upset at what they deem sexist remarks towards women. We need more of a balance.
'In' jokes. I'm guilty of this. The slagging that went on between members of two clubs offended some people here. This was banter between people who know each other in RL but I can understand how it may have looked. Maybe it should have been nipped in the bud earlier.
Allowing threads to go off topic. Very annoying that some posters are allowed to derail interesting threads by obvious trolling.
The rant/rave threads. I can see the argument for getting rid of them, they can cause friction, but can be very funny as well. The forum could become very sterile without something off-topic.
This is the internet and we've got to accept that 'drama' will happen now and again. Posters disagree and just as in RL things get said that are regretted later on. We move on.
I wouldn't like to see any major changes but as already stated maybe mods should give gentle, public reminders to keep us in line from time to time.

donnacha

Not much I'd change TBH.

For purely selfish reasons I would love to see more Graduates Group Training threads in the training logs.

ger664

The forum as structured is alright. No need to change anything on it.
I think the Mods have a tough job here as they will know a high percentage of people in real life this possible can cloud their judgement at times. Mods don't read all post/logs etc and sometimes will miss something and a week later some else may get a slap for a similar post. Issuing warnings etc in bold is normal when threads start to degenerate but sometimes by the time the mod gets there is too late.
Bringing in an external Mod/Admin may even make things worse, so the only solution I see is for people to draw a line under the recent issues and move on. If people still have issues with other posters or mods be grown up and sort it via PM.
Do we really need 3 Off Topic Threads when one single thread would do. The only people who can close/lock these threads are the mods, they don't need our approval to do so.

career move

Ya I'd agree with most of what's been said already. I'm not really sure what's been going on over the last few weeks but it all seems pretty silly to me. I think the rant/rave threads were grand in the beginning but they've had there day and surely that's what an off topic thread is for (and easier to mod).

I don't think you need to open any more forums. You can sometimes learn as much from the slower runners as you can from the faster ones and the way I see it would only divide the A/R forum even further

I hope the guys who closed their accounts come back. I followed all their logs and will miss them but as a former employer once told me 'nobody is indispensable or irreplaceable'

pconn062

ger664 wrote: »

The forum as structured is alright. No need to change anything on it.
I think the Mods have a tough job here as they will know a high percentage of people in real life this possible can cloud their judgement at times. Mods don't read all post/logs etc and sometimes will miss something and a week later some else may get a slap for a similar post. Issuing warnings etc in bold is normal when threads start to degenerate but sometimes by the time the mod gets there is too late.
Bringing in an external Mod/Admin may even make things worse, so the only solution I see is for people to draw a line under the recent issues and move on. If people still have issues with other posters or mods be grown up and sort it via PM.
Do we really need 3 Off Topic Threads when one single thread would do. The only people who can close/lock these threads are the mods, they don't need our approval to do so.

Yes, but we only lock thread when the rules of the site are been broken or if it's gotten completely out of control. Those threads are not breaking any rules and seem quite popular so it would be odd if a Mod just jumped in and locked it. If there is enough support from the majority of posters we could combine the rant/rave threads into the A/R off topic thread but not going to do it without posters support.

martyboy48

OK, here's my take on it....

A/R was fine, was going along nicely, until around the arrival of a certain poster. Said poster was call out on certain things, and gradually things have snowballed, and more recently, allies and cliques had been formed(limited)....

My personal beliefs,
1. A/R was going along nicely-True..
2. Until around the arrival of a certain poster - True, (maybe a coincidence, who knows)
3. "Another" poster called him out on certain things-True. ("Accused" poster inputted some good things, but even as a newbee, I questioned things from the start, although as a newbee, I was not confident enough to make it public".
4.Things have snowballed- THE WORST PART OF IT... As I'll get to, this is the part which is most damaging, and most can't be seen..... The whole "he/she closed/banned their accounts, so will I, fcuk this...
This breeds real problems... I'll use "X" as a name for the purpose of the thread, and i'll try to keep it as general as possible. Basically, I used/still do, like to post anything related to X, "X" is embroiled/tied into /linked to said "toxic","poster in question", poster...

Now, I am second questioning my posts to this person, for fear my posts could be/were construed as taking sides ect ect..

This has gotten worse lately when, me, the insecure person I am, am questioning everything I post, from having the "banter" with SfM, have the "banter" with Bulmers74, and posting big butts to DOCCOs log ect ect....

To probably get to what I'm saying, there have always been some trolls here, but it seems to have been gotten worse, a lot worse lately due to one (or two) posters, but they're gone now... END OF STORY.....

PS .. If you would draw the line with BOLD LINES FOR MODS, LAST WARNINGS, well that will be good, keep everything open and transparent.....

As stated by a lot here, fair play to the Mods past and present, a tough job....

walshb

This forum is no different than any other forum. Problem is that some posters post/reply in an aggressive and confrontational manner. Pompous, belittling and arrogant manner. I can be guilty of this at times, but I never set out to be. This leads to issues being escalated and blown out of proportion. Persons closing accounts due to petty arguments and vendettas is sad. It's only a chat site. I have posted close on 20000 posts, and I would like to think that the majority have been civil and polite and courteous. The mods here are quite good. I do agree with the issue of banter. Banter and craic is ok, but on a public forum it needs to be monitored. What is banter to some is not to others.

tHE vAGGABOND

Agree 100% with RQ and Ray [and others making similar points].

I too have met many folks from here in real life and had more than one drink with some. I would say things to their face in the name of banter which you just dont put up on the internet for the world to read.

Like RQ I had no idea what the recent spat was about [indeed I'm still not all that sure, and don't really care tbh]. I don't read this main forum a huge amount anymore, as I thought the rant and rave threads were rubbish and its not often there are other posts in here which interest me. But they interest many other folks, and that's perfect. Thats why boards has grown as it has.

I think splitting things into many forums is a silly idea. If you dont want to read about novices, then dont click into the Marathon novice threads or people asking for basic help, simple as that.

I have been on boards since before it was boards. From back when it was a single quake forum on a private UCG server hosted by our beloved cloud. Since those early days there is always the odd spat or people running off and setting up their own forum with their own rules, its happened loads of times in the past and will again, and let them...

I think Im like most people on this forum in that I'm not a novice and not doing anything worthy of a club team or GFA times. Im that middle category who does this for fun, with that in mind, anyone who wants to get personal/offensive or wants to start a power struggle can be sent on their way IMHO

Letyourselfgo

I don't think any changes need to be made to the layout of the forum.
Things that annoy me and I may sound like a hypocrite on some of them

1. The tables, very irritating (hypocrite bonus point 1 for me

2. The Rant, rave and off topic thread should all be lumped into 1 thread not 3 as this takes up the space where 2 A/R type related threads would be. (hypocrite bonus point 2. I also think we should have a thread where we can vote on it and majority rules and all that.

3. In the A/R events forum all future race threads should have the same title format, Date/Distance/Name. I used to go in and edit the titles as I just felt it made races easier to find.

4. And sorry for this hunnymonster but I think you need to go as a mod and should be replaced by another female poster, maybe RQ

5. Mods need to use the bold and preferably before things escalate.

6. Not enough to show your implied tone and also not enough respect shown to the forum, mods and users. It's not the real world but we should still all behave in a way that makes the forum work.

I don't use the forum as much as I did a few years ago and mainly thats because I'm involved in the juvenile section of athletics now and that's not catered for here and also because I'm a lazy Shlte when it comes to my own running

RayCun

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

I don't use the forum as much as I did a few years ago and mainly thats because I'm involved in the juvenile section of athletics now and that's not catered for here and also because I'm a lazy Shlte when it comes to my own running

There are a few other juvenile coaches here... well there's me at least!... if you wanted to start a thread here;) about juvenile coaching. We can't discuss individual athletes, but general training stuff is fine

menoscemo

Yeah actually, despite what I said earlier I am coming around to the idea of the Rant/Rave threads being locked up. On reflection they are just being used for point scoring recently and the Rants/Raves are really of very poor quality nowadays. They are almost like 'dear diary' type posts.
I guess the Off Topic thread could be used for the same purpose.

AuldManKing

I posted a couple of items on my own log, but will expand a little here.

Positives of Boards:

* Good 'real' friendships formed.
* Training log keeps me honest in training and prevents me DNF'ing in races.
* Great advice and tips from other logs / Main forum.
* Good to be able to contribute with advice and help for others e.g. Mentored Novices


How Boards could be better??

(1) Individual Responsibility
* Individual posters being more mature in their posts.
* Individual posters being less reactive to others posts
* People do congregate to like minded people - its not necessarily a clique - just like minded people who enjoy each others company, perhaps even outside of the internet. Plenty of people have joined Boards recently and slotted in with other like minded people.

* Newbies should not be afraid to post anything or any question to any log - its a shame that people feel like this. For this reason the thread that Ososlo started about 'random running Q's' is excellent - Could we sticky that?

(2) Forum Design
* I don't see a real need for sub forums etc BUT if we could have a 'Coaches Corner' sub forum - maybe that would encourage coaches to share ideas.
This could lead to other coaches being more willing to post/share in an area thats outside all the other 'noise'.

(3) Moderator Responsibility
* Interesting comments on having 4 mods made by others - 4 mods would certainly help.
* Mods do a superb job in difficult circumstances at times. (to use the 'pub' analogy - imagine a guy walking around a pub listening to all the conversations, trying to see what is acceptable or not - its a really difficult job role.
* I like the idea of a more visual form of moderator (e.g. Bold Text warnings) - being able to recognise what is acceptable or not is helpful - sometimes banter can be misconstrued or not received well.

(4) Other
* I'd like if we could encourage other coaches to join or partake in some activity. We had the 'poster of the week' (or something like that) - maybe we could encourage a 'guest coach' from a club to take questions for a week.

* The recent posting from the DCM winner mgmt/coaching team was fantastic insight. Be great to hold onto posters like these.