Farm family with €300,000 in the bank still got college aid (Independent website)

Lambofdave

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/farm-family-with-300000-in-the-bank-still-got-college-aid-30709231.html

What do people think?

tayto lover

Absolute scandal but it's the norm for farming families to cream off the education grants in this country. The PAYE worker has no chance.
Farming families also make up the majority of FG voters so will be looked after.

http://www.thejournal.ie/farming-bodies-against-asset-testing-for-third-level-grants-550912-Aug2012/

http://www.finfacts.ie/finfactsblog/2006/08/third-level-grants-bonanza-for-some.html

The Letheram

tayto lover wrote: »

Absolute scandal but it's the norm for farming families to cream off the education grants in this country. The PAYE worker has no chance.
Farming families also make up the majority of FG voters so will be looked after.

http://www.thejournal.ie/farming-bodies-against-asset-testing-for-third-level-grants-550912-Aug2012/

http://www.finfacts.ie/finfactsblog/2006/08/third-level-grants-bonanza-for-some.html

It is the self employed in general, not farmers in particular, that get the benefit of grants in the main. It is pretty much the same tax system for all but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. All sectors get targeted tax reliefs in one form or another before we hear about that.

Grab All Association

This thread will be better suited to Politics/Education/After Hours.

Littlehorny

The fact that it is a farmer or self employed person should have no relevence to the story, the fact is any family with 300k in the bank should not be getting this grant, end of.
There are times when i would barely have 300 euro in the bank.

_Brian

Sorry I don't Have time to read the full details of the links provided.

But, can I ask, did this family get the grant because the system saw that they were entitled to it, or did they have a politician make representations on their behalf ??

If the system saw them entitled and they drew what they were entitled to, should we really deamonise them, rather than a poorly administered system??

Beaner1

_Brian wrote: »

Sorry I don't Have time to read the full details of the links provided.

But, can I ask, did this family get the grant because the system saw that they were entitled to it, or did they have a politician make representations on their behalf ??

If the system saw them entitled and they drew what they were entitled to, should we really deamonise them, rather than a poorly administered system??

They absolutely should be demonised because they abused and manipulated reasonable social policy for their own greed.

elastico

Littlehorny wrote: »

the fact is any family with 300k in the bank should not be getting this grant, end of.

Why?

There are plenty of civil servants out there with gold plated pensions worth an awful lot more than this, except its not sitting in the bank for all to see.

I believe it would cost over €1m to purchase a garda's pension on the open pension market.

They also have job security which self employed people don't have.

If I have a choice between a gardas €1m pension and job security or €300K today in the bank + college grants + no job security I know which I'd pick.

tayto lover

The Letheram wrote: »

It is the self employed in general, not farmers in particular, that get the benefit of grants in the main. It is pretty much the same tax system for all but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. All sectors get targeted tax reliefs in one form or another before we hear about that.

As you know the farmers get more free grants than any other sector in Ireland.

Lambofdave

Beaner1 wrote: »

They absolutely should be demonised because they abused and manipulated reasonable social policy for their own greed.

was what they did illegal?

Lambofdave

tayto lover wrote: »

As you know the farmers get more free grants than any other sector in Ireland.

what's your definition of free?

_Brian

Beaner1 wrote: »

They absolutely should be demonised because they abused and manipulated reasonable social policy for their own greed.

So in one of the links provided it says that they "abused and manipulated" the system of applying for and receiving the grant??

I'm just trying to clarify fact from fiction and opinion..

Beaner1

_Brian wrote: »

So in one of the links provided it says that they "abused and manipulated" the system of applying for and receiving the grant??

I'm just trying to clarify fact from fiction and opinion..

You lot know how the scams work. Cook your books for a few years when you have college kids.

Lambofdave

Beaner1 wrote: »

You lot know how the scams work. Cook your books for a few years when you have college kids.

so your claiming what happened is illegal?

Dr Turk Turkelton

elastico wrote: »

Why?

There are plenty of civil servants out there with gold plated pensions worth an awful lot more than this, except its not sitting in the bank for all to see.

I believe it would cost over €1m to purchase a garda's pension on the open pension market.

They also have job security which self employed people don't have.

If I have a choice between a gardas €1m pension and job security or €300K today in the bank + college grants + no job security I know which I'd pick.

Civil servants generally don't get college grants for their kids though.

Farmer

Unfortunately if you try to legislate for these kind of things, it's the people with most assets who are best at finding loopholes. He'd probably buy a house near college, claim he was a landlord and it was his livelihood. Meanwhile some PAYE worker, having lost his job, will be disqualified by virtue of his redundancy payment.

Not saying we shouldn't try though.

Beaner1

Lambofdave wrote: »

so your claiming what happened is illegal?

With property forensic accounting i bet plenty of it was.

Call me Al

elastico wrote: »

Why?

There are plenty of civil servants out there with gold plated pensions worth an awful lot more than this, except its not sitting in the bank for all to see.

I believe it would cost over €1m to purchase a garda's pension on the open pension market.

They also have job security which self employed people don't have.

If I have a choice between a gardas €1m pension and job security or €300K today in the bank + college grants + no job security I know which I'd pick.

With all due respect the pension arrangements of anyone is completely beside the point. We are talking about assessment of means for third level grants. The idea that after assessment any applicant's family would be deemed eligible, and in need of state assistance, with this amount in the bank is absurd.

tayto lover

Lambofdave wrote: »

what's your definition of free?

They contribute feck all in taxes but have received 44 billion in CAP alone since 1972. Farmers around here driving big Mercs, attending race meetings during the week when most people are working, all their children getting education grants yet contributing feck all and all the while crying poverty..

Rubberchikken

after reading the article, i don't see how this family can be villified.
they simply applied for the grant as many others do. if FG are too afraid to bring in rules governing ownership of assets above a certain value, it's not an individual families's fault.

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

So in one of the links provided it says that they "abused and manipulated" the system of applying for and receiving the grant??

I'm just trying to clarify fact from fiction and opinion..

Beaner1 wrote: »

You lot know how the scams work. Cook your books for a few years when you have college kids.

Great, rather than answering a question you're going to accuse all farmers of "cooking the books".. clever

Beaner1

Rubberchikken wrote: »

after reading the article, i don't see how this family can be villified.
they simply applied for the grant as many others do. if FG are too afraid to bring in rules governing ownership of assets above a certain value, it's not an individual families's fault.

If only PAYE workers could pretend their incomes were assets we could all scam the system.

Littlehorny

elastico wrote: »

Why?

There are plenty of civil servants out there with gold plated pensions worth an awful lot more than this, except its not sitting in the bank for all to see.

I believe it would cost over €1m to purchase a garda's pension on the open pension market.

They also have job security which self employed people don't have.

If I have a choice between a gardas €1m pension and job security or €300K today in the bank + college grants + no job security I know which I'd pick.

I thought the point of these grants is to help families who can't afford to pay college fees send their kids to higher education. I am not trying to demonise this particular family, it's the system that's wrong but they clearly can afford to pay the fees.
As for your point about pensions, i'm not sure what relevence they have in this case.

solerina

That article is only trying to stir up bad feeling...there is a huge difference between capital assets and cash in the bank...many farming families are asset rich but cash poor. In fairness anyone regardless of their background should not get a grant if they have 300,000 in the bank, however you should not be prevented getting a grant just because you have (X) amount of acres or (X) amount of livestock.

_Brian

Rubberchikken wrote: »

after reading the article, i don't see how this family can be villified.
they simply applied for the grant as many others do. if FG are too afraid to bring in rules governing ownership of assets above a certain value, it's not an individual families's fault.

I agree.. the creation and maintenance of wealth is often through legal means of avoiding spending it, either through grant aid or tax avoidance, if its legal then its OK.

Sam Kade

Are the government giving themselves a pay rise and using a made up shock story to divert attention elsewhere?

solerina

tayto lover wrote: »

They contribute feck all in taxes but have received 44 billion in CAP alone since 1972. .

You obviously don't understand what this fund is for.....if the funding was removed farmers would need to sell their animals at what it costs to produce them plus profit. Believe me this does not happen at the moment...the fund subsides the farmer so that consumers can actually afford to buy the products. By the way farmers do pay tax too !!

tayto lover

Rubberchikken wrote: »

after reading the article, i don't see how this family can be villified.
they simply applied for the grant as many others do. if FG are too afraid to bring in rules governing ownership of assets above a certain value, it's not an individual families's fault.

I wouldn't blame them at all for seeking the grant BUT they shouldn't have got it. It's just wrong.

_Brian

solerina wrote: »

You obviously don't understand what this fund is for.....if the funding was removed farmers would need to sell their animals at what it costs to produce them plus profit. Believe me this does not happen at the moment...the fund subsides the farmer so that consumers can actually afford to buy the products. By the way farmers do pay tax too !!

It also compensated farmers for the restrictions put upon them by the EU, these restrictions reduce opportunities to increase profits..
For example we are in a closed season for manure spreading although many places have been well fit, these environmental measures reduce output on farms..

tayto lover

solerina wrote: »

You obviously don't understand what this fund is for.....if the funding was removed farmers would need to sell their animals at what it costs to produce them plus profit. Believe me this does not happen at the moment...the fund subsides the farmer so that consumers can actually afford to buy the products. By the way farmers do pay tax too !!

How to pay NOTHING -

http://www.kbg.ie/Taxation_Brochure_2012.pdf

rangler1

tayto lover wrote: »

I wouldn't blame them at all for seeking the grant BUT they shouldn't have got it. It's just wrong.

What about people with €300000 + in a pension . I know a good few of those families that are getting grants. If your income is below the threshold, you're entitled to it.

NSAman

The Letheram wrote: »

It is the self employed in general, not farmers in particular, that get the benefit of grants in the main. It is pretty much the same tax system for all but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. All sectors get targeted tax reliefs in one form or another before we hear about that.

In general? Perhaps you are right, in my day, we were way under the limits with a family business, very little income and yet I was never eligible for a grant. I worked three jobs to pay for my education and had 10 pounds a week to live on after my accomodation was paid.

A farmer's daughter who drove a Merc to college each day got the grant and complained to us once that she couldn't live on the 100punds a week daddy gave her...

Some are more equal than others.

elastico

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Civil servants generally don't get college grants for their kids though.

Yes I know they don't get grants but if I had a choice between 300K in bank, job insecurity and college grants OR permanent civil service job, with a nailed on pension but have to pay for college for my kids I reckon if I looked at the numbers the permanent and pensionable job and have to pay for college option would come out tops most of the time.

freedominacup

tayto lover wrote: »

I wouldn't blame them at all for seeking the grant BUT they shouldn't have got it. It's just wrong.

In this you are correct but the rest of your posts are just so much hot air.

rangler1

tayto lover wrote: »

They contribute feck all in taxes but have received 44 billion in CAP alone since 1972. Farmers around here driving big Mercs, attending race meetings during the week when most people are working, all their children getting education grants yet contributing feck all and all the while crying poverty..

Don't you get a PAYE tax allowance that the self employed don't get. True CAP brought 44bn into farmers pocket, but it doesn't just vapourise there, it goes out around rural Communities or if we don't spend it, it goes into the tax coffers.
Sure we attend race meetings during the week, but what are you guys doing Christmas Day, Stephens day,etc when we're all working. as for the 40 hr week ....whats that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted to see you guys on our forum, couldn't have timed it better, I've spent the week trying to defend our lobby organisation and here you are complaining about how good they are.:cool:

Greengrass1

How do we know he didn't get paid for his grain or sell cattle? Lots if farmers could bring in 300k but might only have 30-40k to live off for the yr and support there family after tyey paid there yrs expenses

tayto lover

freedominacup wrote: »

In this you are correct but the rest of your posts are just so much hot air.

http://www.kbg.ie/Taxation_Brochure_2012.pdf

Example
A farmer aged 45 rents out farmland under a formal written lease for 6 years which
commenced in 2011. The annual rent which he receives under the lease is €10,000. As
the lease is between 5 and 7 years in duration, he can receive up to €12,000 in rents tax
free. So the annual rent of €10,000 will not be taxable

Example
A farmer spends €50,000 on the construction of a hay-barn in 2012. He will be able to
annual capital allowance of €7,500 (15%) for the first 6 tax years from 2012 to 2017 and
will be to claim capital allowances of €5,000 (10%) in the 7th year (2018)


Any other sector of society able to do this.
I need a car to get to work. I can claim nothing.

Lambofdave

tayto lover wrote: »

They contribute feck all in taxes but have received 44 billion in CAP alone since 1972. Farmers around here driving big Mercs, attending race meetings during the week when most people are working, all their children getting education grants yet contributing feck all and all the while crying poverty..

That comment really does show your ignorance, they contribute a lot to this country but overlooking it for your own bias is to be expected

tayto lover

Lambofdave wrote: »

That comment really does show your ignorance, they contribute a lot to this country but overlooking it for your own bias is to be expected

Proof please.

Lambofdave

tayto lover wrote: »

Proof please.

farm raw materials

Genghis Cant

tayto lover wrote: »

Proof please.

Where do ya think the Tayto's you love come from;) ?

They don't fall out of the sky.

tayto lover

Lambofdave wrote: »

farm raw materials

Like the spuds they dumped from the ship into the quay in Dundalk a few years ago because the Italians were able to produce and export them here cheaper than the Irish farmers were willing to sell them.

farmersfriend

tayto lover wrote: »

They contribute feck all in taxes but have received 44 billion in CAP alone since 1972. Farmers around here driving big Mercs, attending race meetings during the week when most people are working, all their children getting education grants yet contributing feck all and all the while crying poverty..

That's a fairy tale!!! Sure if it's that good you should be farming yourself! The reality is far from what u have stated. Farmers are working 365 days a yr, if they go to the races for a few hrs so what. Don't know any farmers wit a merc, certainly wouldn't be practical. Farmers contribute in tax alright, and the Cap is in reality subsidising the consumer as if u were to pay the real cost of food you wouldn't be impressed. As for college grants, if u apply and meet the criteria it doesn't matter if u are a farmer or not

rangler1

tayto lover wrote: »

http://www.kbg.ie/Taxation_Brochure_2012.pdf

Example
A farmer aged 45 rents out farmland under a formal written lease for 6 years which
commenced in 2011. The annual rent which he receives under the lease is €10,000. As
the lease is between 5 and 7 years in duration, he can receive up to €12,000 in rents tax
free. So the annual rent of €10,000 will not be taxable

Example
A farmer spends €50,000 on the construction of a hay-barn in 2012. He will be able to
annual capital allowance of €7,500 (15%) for the first 6 tax years from 2012 to 2017 and
will be to claim capital allowances of €5,000 (10%) in the 7th year (2018)


Any other sector of society able to do this.
I need a car to get to work. I can claim nothing.

I'd agree that the first allowance is a bit of a bonus, but the country needs to get land into productive hands, not guy that are too lazy to farm it, (there are also people too ill to farm it and other reasons)
Your second example is available to every business and it brings business to local indutries

billy111

tayto lover wrote: »

Like the spuds they dumped from the ship into the quay in Dundalk a few years ago because the Italians were able to produce and export them here cheaper than the Irish farmers were willing to sell them.

Plenty of farm land for sale around the country. Easy money with no taxes, drive a nice car. Why don't you change careers if it's that handy.

tayto lover

billy111 wrote: »

Plenty of farm land for sale around the country. Easy money with no taxes, drive a nice car. Why don't you change careers if it's that handy.

The remark of someone without an argument :rolleyes:

billy111

tayto lover wrote: »

The remark of someone without an argument :rolleyes:

Why are you working and paying taxes when you have stated that farmers pay no tax?

rangler1

tayto lover wrote: »

Proof please.

Farmers bring in €2bn from Europe, every year in subsidies, 6 or 7 billion in sheep, beef, and dairy exports, so you're looking at up on 10bn coming into the country, That has to generate employment

tayto lover

billy111 wrote: »

Why are you working and paying taxes when you have stated that farmers pay no tax?

Seriously lads you have it handy.
Anyone in the PAYE system has everything deducted at source Income Tax, USC, Levies, PRSI which for many adds up to 52% of their wages.
You lot can use every conceivable method like the link I posted above to prevent you paying anything and all the while educate your families for free. It's a nice position to be in really but someone with dream money like 300K in the bank getting grants is just unbelievable.

freedominacup

tayto lover wrote: »

http://www.kbg.ie/Taxation_Brochure_2012.pdf

Example
A farmer aged 45 rents out farmland under a formal written lease for 6 years which
commenced in 2011. The annual rent which he receives under the lease is €10,000. As
the lease is between 5 and 7 years in duration, he can receive up to €12,000 in rents tax
free. So the annual rent of €10,000 will not be taxable

Example
A farmer spends €50,000 on the construction of a hay-barn in 2012. He will be able to
annual capital allowance of €7,500 (15%) for the first 6 tax years from 2012 to 2017 and
will be to claim capital allowances of €5,000 (10%) in the 7th year (2018)


Any other sector of society able to do this.
I need a car to get to work. I can claim nothing.

First example I couldn't be sure of but there have been any number of "section whatever you're having yourself" tax schemes which were open to any self employed person not sure if they had much application to paye sector though in the first example you would be talking about a landlord not a farmer.

Example two same sort of allowances available to any business/self employed person for capital spending in their business. So pretty much any business sector is the answer to your question. Btw if you had the cash there would be absolutely nothing to stop you buying farmland and availing of the scheme outlined in example one the over 45 bit is gone and if you're willing to sign a 15 year plus lease the allowances are much higher but as I said allowances are for landlords not farmers.

tayto lover

freedominacup wrote: »

First example I couldn't be sure of but there have been any number of "section whatever you're having yourself" tax schemes which were open to any self employed person not sure if they had much application to paye sector though in the first example you would be talking about a landlord not a farmer.

Example two same sort of allowances available to any business/self employed person for capital spending in their business. So pretty much any business sector is the answer to your question. Btw if you had the cash there would be absolutely nothing to stop you buying farmland and availing of the scheme outlined in example one the over 45 bit is gone and if you're willing to sign a 15 year plus lease the allowances are much higher but as I said allowances are for landlords not farmers.

Does not apply to many PAYE workers in fairness. We're screwed.