From 20 a day to 3:30...

Netwerk Errer

Depends on what kind of tempo run. A steady tempo at just slower than MP for 10k would be fine. 10k at at faster than HMP would be overdoing it. You could always do 10k with 20 minutes at just slower than 10k pace or 35 minutes at just faster than 10m pace.

JohnDozer

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Depends on what kind of tempo run. A steady tempo at just slower than MP for 10k would be fine. 10k at at faster than HMP would be overdoing it. You could always do 10k with 20 minutes at just slower than 10k pace or 35 minutes at just faster than 10m pace.

Thank you. So I have an actual HMP of 7:30mm. From McMillan race times predictor I have an MP of below 8mm. So if I built it into the plan I could do a 10k tempo every second week at around 8mm/ 8.15 pace and alternate that on other weeks with two different paces distributed as you identified - 15 mins @ 7mm and 30 minutes at 7:20 roughly - or is that a one or the other scenario but not both?

Netwerk Errer

JohnDozer wrote: »

Thank you. So I have an actual HMP of 7:30mm. From McMillan race times predictor I have an MP of below 8mm. So if I built it into the plan I could do a 10k tempo every second week at around 8mm/ 8.15 pace and alternate that on other weeks with two different paces distributed as you identified - 15 mins @ 7mm and 30 minutes at 7:20 roughly - or is that a one or the other scenario but not both?

Sounds good to me if I picked it up right. Are you saying that in one day, you will run 15min @ 7m/m and 30min @ 7.20 or that you will be doing each pace separately on different weeks?

I wouldn't combine both paces into one session. More like this:

Week 1: 10k w/ 15-20mins @ 7m/m pace.

Week 2: 10m w/ 60min @ 8:15m/m pace

Week 3: 10k+ w/ 30-40min @ 7:20m/m pace

The overall mileage can be as much as you like but the time of the workout should be within the ranges above. Personally, that's the way I would structure it as It gives a varied range of paces. I would also suggest not paying too much attention to hitting paces, The workouts are more about effort. 15-20 min @ 10k effort.

JohnDozer

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Sounds good to me if I picked it up right. Are you saying that in one day, you will run 15min @ 7m/m and 30min @ 7.20 or that you will be doing each pace separately on different weeks?

I wouldn't combine both paces into one session. More like this:

Week 1: 10k w/ 15-20mins @ 7m/m pace.

Week 2: 10m w/ 60min @ 8:15m/m pace

Week 3: 10k+ w/ 30-40min @ 7:20m/m pace

The overall mileage can be as much as you like but the time of the workout should be within the ranges above. Personally, that's the way I would structure it as It gives a varied range of paces. I would also suggest not paying too much attention to hitting paces, The workouts are more about effort. 15-20 min @ 10k effort.

I had actually thought I could combine the two paces in one session, but seeing the way you've set it out makes perfect sense. Now all I have to do is execute it... Simples!! I'm not the best at figuring out effort levels without some form of Garmin assistance, so would an alternative be to figure out an appropriate HR reading for the various efforts and work that way? I didn't really behave myself tonight, ran the 10k at just below 8mm average. I'm really not used of running with a group and am getting a bit carried away at the moment and not really focussing on my own pace/ effort. Need to get that sorted soon.

Netwerk Errer

JohnDozer wrote: »

I had actually thought I could combine the two paces in one session, but seeing the way you've set it out makes perfect sense. Now all I have to do is execute it... Simples!! I'm not the best at figuring out effort levels without some form of Garmin assistance, so would an alternative be to figure out an appropriate HR reading for the various efforts and work that way? I didn't really behave myself tonight, ran the 10k at just below 8mm average. I'm really not used of running with a group and am getting a bit carried away at the moment and not really focussing on my own pace/ effort. Need to get that sorted soon.

Use a garmin or a HR if you want to give yourself an idea of the pace but don't get too caught up in them and try to hit the pace constantly, if it feels too hard, back off a little. Your tempo pace will vary everyday because of factors which are not quantifiable.

Just to clarify a little more on the different tempo runs. The 20 minute tempo should be slower than 10k pace(roughly +5-10s per mile). Looking at the paces you mentioned, The longer 40min tempo should be HMP or a tiny bit faster for you. The 60 minute tempo would be close to MP. There's a million different ways to do tempo runs but that would be my take on the basic way to do it.

If you find any of the above too difficult at the start, there are other ways to break it down and get similar benefits.

JohnDozer

Wednesday 4th As above, headed for the club run. Got delayed at work so just drove there. Headed off after some discussion about changing the route slightly. After about a mile, a gentleman from the US of A joined myself and another fella and was chatting away. The other club member dropped off after a little while and I ended up on my own between two groups when he left after 3 miles or so. Decided to try and catch the two boys ahead instead of hanging back for the others as I could see neither group. Whats the point of joining a club to run alone? Turns out the group ahead had decided on a slightly different route so I ended up chasing no-one, so caught no-one. In the end, did the 10k in about 48 minutes, average pace at 7.52 which was really a progression run. Had just finished and was chatting to one of the other guys, and the conversation ended up leaving me hungry for some greasy fries in one of Limericks finest establishments. While salivating at the prospect, got a call from work which resulted in me having to go back in for a 12 hour shift, after having just completed 11 hours work pre-run. Grrrrrr...

Thursday 5th In bits today, couldn't sleep properly by day, sluggish, appetite and stomach in bits. 4 gentle recovery miles followed and off to bed. I seem to have some tenderness in my left heel. Nothing too serious hopefully.

Friday 6th A day of rest me thinks... We shall see later. Maybe another easy easy run....

Dubgal72

Ouch, that's serious body clock messing stuff But nice 10k training run!
And don't neglect your heel!

JohnDozer

I got my sub 20 5k tonight by 8 whole seconds. I am a happy happy man. More information to follow some other time!

Netwerk Errer

Savage running JD! Massive improvement over the last few weeks.

MaggotBrain

Deadly, well done.

adrian522

Good stuff!

Ososlo

JohnDozer wrote: »

I got my sub 20 5k tonight by 8 whole seconds. I am a happy happy man. More information to follow some other time!

Fantastic! Can't wait to hear all about it!

Bulmers74

JohnDozer wrote: »

I got my sub 20 5k tonight by 8 whole seconds. I am a happy happy man. More information to follow some other time!

Well done - and a top ten finish

Dubgal72

Well done, flying!

JohnDozer

Reporting on a great week so far! It started badly, double 12 hour shift last Wednesday week took so much out of me mentally and physically. It took quite some time to recover properly. Coupled with this I was feeling some tenderness in my heel that was very concerning.

Thursday 5th - only managed a 4 mile very easy run. Really really tired and some new pain on my right hamstring so kept it very easy. Heel still tender but no worse.

Friday 6th - rest. Body and mind no interest in running

Saturday 7th - ditto

Sunday 8th - starting to come round so the plan was head out for 5 miles in the morning and see how that went. If it went okay, head out for another run later in the day. Still a bit of a pull on the hamstring so left it at the 5 at easy pace. Used to get a bit of hamstring trouble playing football that never really developed into much so hoping that applies here.

Lowest weekly mileage in a while at 27 miles. Positives I'm taking from the week are that before I probably would have gone out and attempted an LSR even with the niggles, so I may be getting some sense. Doubt it though!!

Monday 9th - Just a 4 mile run at easy 9 mm pace. Still not convinced the hamstring is okay but not willing to out too much pressure on it yet. The heel definitely feels better so some good news.

Tuesday 10th - Not really sure what was on the plan for today but ended up heading out in the evening time with a make it up as I go along plan. No issues at all in either area so decided to repeat last week's tempo session, not really sure why but chose to do 2 * 18 minute off 5 minutes recovery. Like other runs, HR never got back below 150 at 9 mm pace in the recovery section. Don't really know what to do except a standing / walking recovery maybe? Kept the HR in the correct zone most of the time, and happy enough with the paces in the tempo. A couple of pretty quick miles for the zone so happy out with that, 3 sub 8's. 9.6 miles in total

Wednesday 11th - Return trip to Dublin today for 2 meetings. I had planned to arrive early and run when I arrived. Didn't work out as I misjudged traffic. If somebody could recommend a spot to park up for the day and run into town (Parnell St area) approximately 6 miles out that would be really good. I think this would be a much better use of my time on my monthly visits up. 5 easy miles when I got back to Kerry.

Thursday 12th - UL Spring Series 5k - I decided on Wednesday while driving that I would head out and do this as I had a work meeting at 8pm so would be around Limerick. What I hadn't decided and was still debating on the warmup was what way to approach it, run it flat out or run it at 5 mile pace. Warm up consisted of an easy run from work out to UL (about 2.7 miles). Strategy became head out on the first mile at sub 20 pace and reassess. Was noticing the stiff breeze so assumed I'd be doing the last 2 miles at 5 mile pace. Registered quickly for this accurately measured, well marshalled 5k, a steal at a €5! I don't understand how a midweek 5k series like this only attracts a crowd of 50 in Limerick City, and that's a large crowd for this event. Anyway, let about 20 odd people head off in front of me and settled into a nice rhythm early on, a few seconds off target pace but doing fine. Started doing what served me well in Ennis last day out, focusing on the back of the next person and picking them off one by one. First mile came and went and was about 10 seconds behind where I needed to be. If anyone is familiar with UL this 5k involves two trips over the Living Bridge which is a very strange experience when running flat out, and noisy to say the least. After running it for the second time I was about 17/18 seconds down on sub 20. The bit I cannot explain comes next, slowly but surely the average pace on the garmin started to drop, and over the course of the last mile (plus the 0.1 of course, the target was back on. This pushed me on no end and I found some mental strength that I didn't know I had. When I looked back on the stats on Strava afterwards mile 3 was ran at 6.07 pace. I have no idea how I managed this, still don't understand it. If I tried to hold 6 minute mile pace in an interval session I would be under serious pressure. Adrenalin I guess. The garmin data also shows a spike where we went under a building but I'm not sure that caused it. The whole thing nearly came undone when a little dog on a lead stepped out in front of me requiring some acrobatic maneuvering and a bit of luck to avoid going upside down. Went over the last little incline and knew the sub 20 was a done deal and hammered it down to the finish line. I can honestly say of all the races that I have done, this finish line was the one I enjoyed the most. Had to take take a few minutes to compose myself, and it took everything I had to stop me emptying my guts into the River Shannon.

I knew a sub 20 was in me sometime in the next while. I genuinely did not think it would this soon. It feels really really good to have a 19:xx 5k time. I'm happy enough not to race another one for a while, and rest on that time. I find 5k's really difficult to run, I'm not designed physically for moving that quick. I also find them mentally torturous, but I guess that's part of the territory. My favourite distance is 10 miles, that pace running suits me better. What this has done now is give me a decent set of targets to aim at. VDOT tells me I can knock about 3 minutes off my 10k time based on that performance. Hmm.... We will see! As pointed out, I'll happily take a top 10 finish, even if it was finishing 8th out of just 50. I haven't ever had a top 10 finish, and possibly won't too many times in the future, so I'll take this one.

Next up for now - back on track with Limerick Marathon training and a 5 miler in Quilty, Co. Clare at the end of the month.


Friday 13th - Rest. Working tonight and after last night's efforts taking a day off. Don't think tonight is going to affect me as much as last week as this is planned and I got plenty of sleep today.

annapr

Well done on the sub-20!!!!

Ososlo

Great report and super result. You'll take lots more off that this year no doubt!

You could park in Phoenix Park and run to Parnell Street. Free parking for the day and a nice little run. Not sure how many miles it is but you could add on a bit in the park.

Netwerk Errer

Well done JD! That's some comback over the second half. More to come!:)

chickey2

Well done! Only just found this thread today.
You could try parking at the red cow and running along the luas line into town. I regularly run between the red cow and St James which is about 6k. If you keep going and then head up O'Connell St it might be about 6 miles.

JohnDozer

Thanks Ososlo and chickey2 for those suggestions. I presume parking in those two places is low risk, had heard a few not so nice stories about parking in the Phenix Park, but obviously wouldn't be leaving valuables in the car. I didn't even know you could run all along the luas line, leaning towards that at the moment.

@Netwerk... I'm still none the wiser what happened. Still in a state of disbelief that I could run a 6.07 mile split in mile 3 of a 5k. For comparison the first two splits were 6:32 and 6:36. If I figure it out I'll know what I need to do to do three of them consecutively!!!

And Ososlo - I think I'm done with 5k races for now... They make me sick!

chickey2

JohnDozer wrote: »

Thanks Ososlo and chickey2 for those suggestions. I presume parking in those two places is low risk, had heard a few not so nice stories about parking in the Phenix Park, but obviously wouldn't be leaving valuables in the car. I didn't even know you could run all along the luas line, leaning towards that at the moment.!

You can't run the full line but from the red cow in its grand. There's a bit around Rialto where it goes under a bridge but I just run through St James hospital and you can join the line on the other side of the hospital. I'll post a link to one of my garmin runs tomorrow!

JohnDozer

Met up with the new club mates for a 14 mile LSR this morning. Managed to get a little shut eye on night shift and was feeling fine. The two lads I joined up with have similar enough race results so tagged along. It soon became apparent that we were moving a bit quick for an LSR but nobody seemed to rein in the pace, despite frequent mentions by all three of us at different points. The consensus towards the end seemed to be that because it was just 14 miles we couldn't do too much damage. Really enjoyed this as it was my first time ever doing a longer run in company. Clipping along nicely at around 8:20 pace and getting to know the two lads, and them getting to know me. Was feeling under pressure between miles 6 and 8 bit came around again to finish it out feeling strong, and putting the boys under a little friendly pressure. HR higher than I would like for the full run, especially so close to Thursday's efforts, but if I don't do anything quick until next Wednesday/ Thursday it should limit the damage. Nice spin around Limerick City on a beautiful morning and off to Tralee for a nap and the rugby... Ever the romantic!

JohnDozer

chickey2 wrote: »

You can't run the full line but from the red cow in its grand. There's a bit around Rialto where it goes under a bridge but I just run through St James hospital and you can join the line on the other side of the hospital. I'll post a link to one of my garmin runs tomorrow!

Thanks! That would be great.

chickey2

Here's my link to the red cow to St James run: connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/613301727
Just to clarify, its run on pedestrian paths along or close to the track rather than along the track itself. Once you get to the hospital, run through it then follow the tracks to Houston where you can either keep following the tracks or head down the quays. I don't really run in the city so I'm not sure which is the better route. Good luck!

Ososlo

JohnDozer wrote: »

Thanks Ososlo and chickey2 for those suggestions. I presume parking in those two places is low risk, had heard a few not so nice stories about parking in the Phenix Park, but obviously wouldn't be leaving valuables in the car. I didn't even know you could run all along the luas line, leaning towards that at the moment.

If you leave the car in a busyish area it should be fine. Anywhere along the main avenue or close to one of the gates where there's a bit of activity should be fine. And yes as you say leave nothing visible in the car. I've never had any problems but I know people who have had cars broken into near Papal Cross so stay away from there maybe.

JohnDozer

Thanks to both of you! After getting called to head up on Thursday so will be putting it into action sooner than I thought... Off to check mileage on runkeeper!

JohnDozer

Sunday 15th - left it late enough to head out for an easy 4 miler. Calves a bit stiff after yesterdays efforts but loosened out nicely. happy enough to get an easy run with an average HR reading below 140. Easy range is below 149 and I can often struggle to attain this. Nicely loosened out by the end of it, although kinda regretted not going for longer after arriving home.

Total mileage for the week was 45 so creeping in the right direction after a few lower weeks. Aim to hit 50 the coming week.


Monday 16th - Met up with Mick, who has now decided he wants to do the 6 mile in the Great Limerick Run while training once a week. He/ We agreed a 6 min jog/ 2 min walk repeated by 4 would be a good start. Mission successful (2.6 miles in 31 minutes) so next week repeated by 5!

Headed off after that for a 7 mile jaunt around Limerick City. One of the most noticeable things that happened was the much lower heart rate than normal. I think the average for the run was around 135 while the pace was normal easy pace. I'm presuming this is as a result of a much gentler warm-up than normal. Might employ a run/ walk warm up more often. Have to say, don't like mid term break around Limerick City, passed a group of 'yoods' who were interfering with the bikes near the Strand Hotel. I was across the road from them and was narrowly missed by some projectile fired in my direction. half thought about a confrontation but then logical brain kicked in and kept on shufflin'.

Question: After the 5k last week, plugged the result into VDOT. This gives me a marathon pace of 7:17mm. I don't really know what to do with this piece of information. Obviously I know it reflects potential, but it does suggest I should be running all my LSR's at somewhere between 7:45 and 8:45mm, which is quicker than I have been apart from the most recent one. I don't intend to go after a marathon time in Limerick. I guess what I'm wondering is, is there such a thing as doing the LSR's too slow and thus preventing potential gains for a future marathon training cycle. I will be going after a time in an Autumn marathon, havent decided yet but will probably/ definitely be an October marathon.

Netwerk Errer

I wouldn't pay much attention to the LR pace JD. That's what a guy currently in 3.10 shape would be looking to hit. It's early in the year for you so I don't think you would be aerobically strong enough right now to need to hit that pace range.

I think anything from 1-2min/mile slower is a good pace range for most. You will still get the aerobic and mitochondrial benefits from that pace range without hampering recovery and your other weekly runs. Marathon training isn't just about the long run, it's about consistency and cumulative fatigue throughout the plan. Recovery is just as important as training and hammering long runs every weekend would affect the balance between stress and recovery.

If you feel good about your long run pace now, stick with it and if the effort level starts to drop throughout the year, increase the pace to match up with the previous effort level.

JohnDozer

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

I wouldn't pay much attention to the LR pace JD. That's what a guy currently in 3.10 shape would be looking to hit. It's early in the year for you so I don't think you would be aerobically strong enough right now to need to hit that pace range.

I think anything from 1-2min/mile slower is a good pace range for most. You will still get the aerobic and mitochondrial benefits from that pace range without hampering recovery and your other weekly runs. Marathon training isn't just about the long run, it's about consistency and cumulative fatigue throughout the plan. Recovery is just as important as training and hammering long runs every weekend would affect the balance between stress and recovery.

If you feel good about your long run pace now, stick with it and if the effort level starts to drop throughout the year, increase the pace to match up with the previous effort level.

Thanks again for the response. That's what I was getting at alright. Excluding Saturdays run, the LSR pace I would have been targetting previously would have been 9:30, with a view to running in or around 8:30 marathon pace, and possibly slower. The primary objective for Limerick is to run the entire marathon, without one walking break. This pace falls outside the 90 second guideline, or the 2 minutes you mention. I feel thats a comfortable pace for a long run and doesn't take me long to recover from, generally feel fine and ready for action on the second day. I think I'll aim to wind it up to 9mm and see what happens. Definitely not in 3:10 shape!!!

JohnDozer

Tuesday 17th - Another easy 7 miler at lunchtime, out around the loop around Parteen village. Not much of note, and everything seems in fine fettle. 7.1m total, 64 mins, avg HR 145

Wednesday 18th - Got a text earlier in the day to meet at 6.30 to add another few miles on to the usual club 10k route. A good few arrived and we set off and it quickly became apparent there was no one in the group going to be travelling at a 'handy' pace which I would have preferred. First loop of 2.7m done at an average pace of 8mm. Back to the meet up point to meet the rest and set off again pretty sharpish. Fell in with a guy who has done lots and lots of running and plenty marathons and was getting good advice off him, so stayed with him. Again, the pace kept getting pushed and pushed, and it was just the two of us... So despite gentle nudgings that we might drop the pace a bit, he was having none of it. Pace crept from 7:45 to 7:15 by mile 6. I haven't yet found my right group in the club, and its taking me time to figure out who's who and who suits the pace I want to do, but I do know I can't keep doing this type of session and not come to some harm! 8.9m total, 68 minutes, avg HR 152

Thursday 19th - Dublin with work this morning. Had given some thought to parking at the LUAS park and ride and running in and out to the City Centre. After last nights efforts decided 2 10k runs only 3 hours apart might have added some unnecessary pressure on the body, so Plan B was head up early and get parked and go off for a wander around Dublin. Had some idea that if I found Croke Park I could find the Grand Canal and follow that. Managed to find a section that was closed at both ends, so Plan B was head off towards the coast without any great idea how to get there... Pointed my nose East and took off. After a few minor deviations found myself out on East Wall and heading towards Clontarf. Around here the weather turned nasty and I was running out of time so had to turn back before I had a chance to fully enjoy the coastline. I think this is what I'll do for future Dublin trips as I was up before traffic and getting out of town is never a struggle. Clicked off 7m in total, 65 mins, no HR strap

Friday 20th - rest

Saturday 21st - Was just heading to the planned 16 miler with the club and phone rang from work. Took nearly 30 minutes to get off the call and all had headed off so decided to head for Kerry and do my own thing. Arrived home and was advised I wouldn't have time to do 16 miles. Hmm, what to do! Requested and was approved for 75 minutes running time so headed off on one of my favourite loops, about 9 miles or so. Really enjoyed it and wasn't clock watching at all. I knew the effort levels were good (i.e. higher than planned) as the first 5 miles are uphill and a steady climb. A quick check at the top of the run at 5ish mile mark showed I was hovering just above 8mm. Very surprised as it definitely didn't feel like that. Second half of the run is one long downhill so just took off and see how the fall took me. Most enjoyable run in a while although with an LSR planned for tomorrow probably not the wisest thing to do! 9.4m total, 73 mins, no HR strap

Sunday 22nd - Headed off early in the AM for what was supposed to be an out and back route. Half way through the second mile got a darting spasm in my lower back. Had to stop and stretch it out for a few minutes. After a few minutes stretching seemed ok, so tenderly took off again. Changed the plan to do a route that if I had to cut it short or walk home I wouldn't be too far away. I had visions of being 8 miles from home in the wilds with no phone, and a back in spasm... Not good! Cruising away nicely after this at what felt reasonably comfortable pace, but definitely faster than LSR pace. I'm putting this down to me thinking it might not end up as a 16 mile run, I really thought it was going to be cut short. It was a horrible morning out there, strong westerly wind and no let up with the rain, character building to say the least. Feeling good and strong around mile 11 so decided to up the pace a little to what I felt I could sustain all the way home. It only really started to hurt in the last mile. All in all, given yesterdays run I'm more than happy with how I felt on this run. Moreso, I'm very happy with how I felt yesterday and today so far. No further indications from the back that anything was amiss. Fingers crossed! 16m total, 136 mins, avg HR 149.

55 miles for the week. 1 long run, 2 tempo/ steady runs and 3 easy. I feel already I'm not going to be able to stick rigidly to a plan, but if I keep this general format, increase the long run by 2 miles each week, hit a few 20 milers and one 22, and vary the paces on the tempo runs, and do plenty of MP miles along with 3 nice and easy runs, I'll be fine and fit for Limerick. Body feels in good shape and able for the punishment. Next weekend brings not exactly a target race but one thats nicely set up to take a big chunk off a PB. I've only run once at the distance ever, in 2012, and ran 37:15. I think I'm in shape for around the 34 mark but will settle for anything under 35 as a mark of progress. Everything goes right on the day and we might even see 33:xx. Just have to not do anything stupid in the meantime!