To Hell In A Handcart

MKDTH

Thanks for your words guys. Details can be found here http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf. I am pretty sure what you guys are saying is correct, but will try and fish out the actual quote from the 25 pages!

Awful result this evening for Spurs

MKDTH

So here are a few quotes about this very interesting number cruncher...

'So, according to Horwill, if you can run 5.00 for one mile, you can run at 5.16m/m for 3k/2 miles and 5.32m/m for 5k, and 5.48 for 10k, and 6.04 for 10 miles and 6.20 for marathon (plus or minus a second here or there).'

The thought process which got him to the above figures are as follows....

'So, a male or female approaches me I generally want to know some background before agreeing to take them on. Usually I ask for recent race performances. But I am not just looking at the times here, more importantly I want to see the relationship between the race times and distances. I may get numbers for events like this: From a young runner; 400m, 800m, 1500m, 5k (maybe) From an older (road) runner; 5k (maybe), 10k, HM and marathon (maybe) Right away I m really looking to see what s wrong. (If there is nothing wrong , there will be a limited amount I can do for the guy). Not what is wrong with the times (eg: they're slow), but what is wrong with the relationships between the times a) there may not be a relationship, or b) the relationship might be too loose. Let s look at what I mean: Here are some times I might receive (all number are actual real-life examples) Young runner: 56.x (400), 2.09 (800), 4.37 (1500), 38.30 (10k) Older runner: 17.02 (5k), 36.45 (10k), 1.24 (HM), 3.10+ (marathon) Many of you will have seen equivalence tables somewhere. Tables that give points per performance per distance and allow comparisons between (e.g.) 800m and marathon. The Hungarian Tables are one such example. Mercier tables are another. But no-one suggests that a single person can be equally good at all distances across the board (apart from rarities like Rod Dixon). Your genetic strengths tend to weigh you more in one direction (speed) or the other (endurance). So, some people s performances get better as the race gets longer (or shorter). And this is beyond/in excess of a training effect, they are just more gifted aerobically (or anaerobically). BUT there should still be some form of relationship across distances, and this is what I look for when I hear someone s PR s. Frank Horwill once defined this sort of relationship by saying that if a runner slowed up by 16 secs/mile at any distance (actually, I believe he said 4 secs per 400m lap), that runner could then keep going for twice the distance. (Note that better trained runners slow up LESS than 4 secs per lap to go twice the distance )'

Interesting that the distances that he refers to do not include the HM! The 5m race is understandable as like you guys say, it is close to the 5k and 10k. I suppose I could put this as 8 seconds per mile slower than the 5k?

MKDTH

Further down the thread he does indeed refer to the four main races

'Older runner: 17.02 (5k), 36.45 (10k), 1.24 (HM), 3.10+ (marathon)
5k = 17.02 (5.28m/m)
10k = 36.45 (5.55m/m should be 5.44m/m from 5k time)
HM = 1.24 (6.24m/m should be 6.00m/m from 5k time and 6.11 from 10k time)
Mar = 3.10 (7.15m/m should be 6.40 from HM time and 6.27 from 10k time)

MKDTH

25/04

4.08 Miles @ 12:07 taking 49:29 Average HR 137

This was my first time using a heart rate monitor (now to be referred to as HRM like other threads). I am surrounded by hills and had heard that uphill areas can be a real struggle with your heartrate surging north and so it was with me.

I have not done a maximum heart rate test yet so decided to do this run trying to stay under 140 and ended up slowing rapidly due to this.
11:25, 11:58, 11:52, 13:01, 14:08

Lots of positives to take from this then and I was very excited from using this and being back running again however my knee started grumbling once again after about 3 miles. My pace though was all down to hr and not down to pain from this (the last mile was all up hill).

So I will now give it another week of knee and hip exercises in the hope that it strengthens up. The 5k/max hr test will have to wait which is frustrating.

Chivito550

You're getting awfully technical! Really not something you need to think about right now. Just get out and run, and be consistent, make sure you're weight is where it needs to be, and the times will look after themselves.

MKDTH

Yes and no really, I am a believer in Team Sky's thought process of lots of small things adding up to help improve and from the things that I have read about HRM, I am hopeful of improvement.
Weight and the amount of miles though surely are still easily the biggest and most important thing like you say.

MKDTH

Injury update

I've kept myself busy with lots of knee, hamstring and hip exercises including Myrtle and the 30 day challenge.

I went to the Doctors on the 27/04 (two days after my last run) who referred me to a physio and asked me to rest the knee for 12 days.

I visited the Physio on the 07/05 who diagnosed a few interesting things........my calves are very tight and my lower back is very stiff meaning that my upper legs are having to take all the strain! ITB'S were also super tight!

I must admit to neglecting other areas with all exercises away from running all being based around my hips, hamstrings and thighs. I think that I have only foam rolled about three times this year so have two new exercises to incorporate plus extra foam rolling of my itb's.

I was able to do two miles this morning, deciding to gradually build things up. The result was a slight niggle to the knee early on before it improved. I had the HRM on again and found it very hard to keep it under 140, especially on hills meaning i had to walk in places to bring it back down.
If all goes well, I am eyeing up a Park Run in 13 days to finally find out what my maximum heart rate is, in order to then start h.a,a.d.

Edit The physio also recommended Pilates which I thought was a female thing?

MKDTH

Month 2014 2015 2016

January 0 90.00 81.54
February 0 85.89 105.47
March 0 79.14 107.72
April 0 113.08 57.25
May 25 27.98 ?
June 55.62 27.36 ?
July 78.1 45.77 ?
August 63.43 18.37 ?
September 50.79 25.91 ?
October 68.34 48.50 ?
November 0 54.64 ?
December 9.53 48.83 ?

Totals 350.83 665.47 351.98

MKDTH

08/05

2.06 miles in a whopping 27:35 due to trying to stay under the 140 HRM which proved impossible in the heat and hills @ 13:22.

09/05

A run around my local field with my 7 month old dog covering 0.70 miles @ 12:50, just 9 mins running.
Running on grass would give my legs a chance of a second run in two days, without putting pressure on them, and give my young dog a chance of running with me without annoying other people.

Half an hour later after giving my other half a lift into work, I did another 0.75 miles @ 12:17 without the distractions of the dog adding another 9:10 to my days running.

I then spent an hour doing my vast amount of exercises and day 12 of the 30 day challenge plus foam rolling.

So far so good with regards to knee pain. I will look to push it out to 3 miles on Wednesday or Thursday.

davedanon

You can't, or rather shouldn't, foam roll your ITB.

MKDTH

Hi Dave, do you have any further information as to why you can't, or rather should not foam roll I.t bands?
From what I've read on here, it looks to be about a 65/35% split yes/no to foam rolling this area.

Pacing Mule

MKDTH wrote: »

Hi Dave, do you have any further information as to why you can't, or rather should not foam roll I.t bands?
From what I've read on here, it looks to be about a 65/35% split yes/no to foam rolling this area.

Your personal and resident physio here is firmly in the no camp. That's good enough for me

Myles Splitz

ecoli wrote: »

With regards the original advice you were given I would agree to not foam roll the ITB itself because simply put your wasting your time. The IT band is non contractile connective tissue so effectively you can't loosen muscle tightness in the tissue itself.

This does not mean you can't loosen the IT band through foam rolling however given that the TFL inserts into the Iliotibial tract meaning that muscle tightness here can have a direct impact on the IT band. Target the TFL and glute medius will yield great benefits for foam rolling

MKDTH

Cheers

MKDTH

10/05

2.22 Miles @ 12.22 taking 27:28
Ave HR 142, Max 157

Still playing about with the HRM, trying to stay under 140 for when I start to train to 70% MHR once I know what my MHR is.

11/05

Rest Day
Funeral

12/05

3.44 Miles @11:31 taking 39:16
HR 154/180!

Happy to be running over 3 miles again. I decided to do this run by feel rather than be a slave to the HR which was interesting to see how high the HR got towards the top of a hill about halfway through the run so dosn't look like a spike. I get the impression from this that I have a very large maximum heartrate, but time will tell in 8 days when i do a parkrun.

13/05

1.02 Miles @12:00
Three laps done on the local field which had been freshly cut making things easier which the dog.

1.05 Miles @12:02
Another three laps without the dog.

MKDTH

Weekly Miles

11.24

Not many miles, but hey, the main thing is that I am back running, with all be it two of the five days being run on grass.

MKDTH

15/05

2.73 miles taking 32 mins @ 11:44, Ave HR 140, Max 160.
I decided to run this a bit quicker of late.

16/05

1 hour spend doing various exercises in the hope that it will help the ongoing knee pain in time.

2.04 miles taking 25:47 @ 12:39, Ave HR 133
I took this one slower than yesterday, keeping an eye on HR.

Garbage miles in the past two days as both have had some kind of knee pain during them. The pain was nothing I couldn't of ran through though but whats the point in that? It will only be making it worse again.
I was hoping to finally do the maximum heart rate test in a Park run on Saturday but want to do it with a proper warm up but doubt my knee will be up to six miles inc w/u and c/d.

Sixteen days to my next planned visit to the Physio, can't wait as the calf and back exercises are not really helping and I don't fancy pilates.

I will take Tuesday and Wednesday off and see how the knee feels on Thursday.

Utdfan20titles

What's the thinking behind trying to stay below 140?

MKDTH

Utdfan20titles wrote: »

What's the thinking behind trying to stay below 140?

I am just playing around with the Heart rate monitor until I know what my maximum Heart rate is. I will be then be doing all of my runs at 70% of my Maximum Heart rate.
For example if my maximum heart rate was 185, 70% would be a heart rate of 129.
I have already hit 180 last week when pushing a bit harder up a hill so assume my Heart rate would be near 200.

Utdfan20titles

MKDTH wrote: »

I am just playing around with the Heart rate monitor until I know what my maximum Heart rate is. I will be then be doing all of my runs at 70% of my Maximum Heart rate.
For example if my maximum heart rate was 185, 70% would be a heart rate of 129.
I have already hit 180 last week when pushing a bit harder up a hill so assume my Heart rate would be near 200.

I get you now thanks.

MKDTH

21/05

20 Mins @12:32 covering 1.60 Miles

Nice and slow, testing my legs out after doing nothing for four days due to various niggles.
Felt okay.

22/05

35 Mins spinning

I'm going to go back to cycling at least once a week. I dropped Cycling when i moved from four to five days running in March which eventually led to my knee injury. I always feel good when running the day after I have been on the bike.

Weekly Miles

6.37!

23/05

3.34 Miles @ 10:59 taking 36:42
I felt good for this and with no leg pain I increased my pace as I went to see what HRM would do. I had previously 180 so gave it a bit more in the last few hundred meters which were all up hill, managing to hit 186. I still think the high will be more though.
Splits 11:18, 11:08, 10:45, 9:08
HR 154/186

24/05

20 Mins spinning

25/05

3.27 Miles @12:45 taking 41:45!
HR 134/151
Painfully slow as I tried to keep the HR under 140.
Knee was sore from half a mile on wards.

Eight days until I see the Physio to hopefully improve the knee as these exercises are not really helping as much as I had hoped.

hillsiderunner

Try to keep doing the exercises if you can bear it, sometimes it takes a while. Good luck with the physio!

MKDTH

hillsiderunner wrote: »

Try to keep doing the exercises if you can bear it, sometimes it takes a while. Good luck with the physio!

It's a fair point that these strengthening exercises can take a while before improving anything.
I am still doing the exercises advised, plus a load of others given to me in the past two years. Although the whole thing lacks structure now due to so many different exercises that I randomly do when ever I feel like it.