How much better are elite forces than ordinary infantry ?

cruasder777

Lemming wrote: »

That's a lot of servicemen (and women) whom you have just paid a rather large amount if disrespect to. Plenty of those "rubbish" troops gave their lives throughout the decades too I should hasten to add, so what did you ever do besides slag them off on an internet forum?

I previously posted about my military experience on here in NI, the Gulf war and Croatia, I am not one to boast.


In terms of professionalism, the unit with the highest percentage of those who pass SAS selection when attempted is 2 Sqn RAF Regiment, the RAF Regiments Para unit. The army can slag off the RAF Regiment, but its a fact. Next comes the Parachute Regiment.

"II Squadron RAF Regiment is a parachute-capable Field squadron and can be used to jump in to capture and secure a landing strip or refuelling point. The Sqn operates as a normal Field Sqn, but its capability is used on specific operations as well, such as Op Silkman in Sierra Leone in 2001. Members of II Sqn are required to pass the arduous Pre-Para Selection course, in order to attend a military parachuting course at RAF Brize Norton".

The reason for this is because their role develops the kind of initiative needed by Special Forces soldiers.

Forward Air Control

"RAF Regiment personnel man the majority of Tactical Air Control Parties (TACPs) that coordinate Close Air Support for the British Army. These small teams move with Airborne, Armoured and Infantry units in order to identify enemy targets and call in air assets to attack them. They are also trained to call in artillery fire. TACPs are required to move quickly around the battlefield and can be inserted by vehicle, helicopter or parachute."

Its absurd to compare their set of skills with thumb in bum, brain in neutral infantry of the line soldiers.

Which is why the RAF regiment is also, like it or not an elite unit.

Manic Moran

It was the marines and Paras who were first on the list for the Falklands not infantry of the line.

I suspect they were chosen because they were available and prepped. Their whole function given their specialised role is to be kept away from the front line until needed to conduct an assault. Most everyone else was either in Germany, Northern Ireland, or on spin-up for those roles. Again, though, specialised and available doesn't necessarily mean more elite.

cruasder777 wrote: »

There is no way they could have yomped over the Falklands.

On what basis do you say this? Are you saying that the RGJs or Scots Guards did not do any ruck marching and were physically incapable of doing the job? Or do you think they would just lay down and stop walking, complaining "Oi, Sar-Major, my feet hurt." Patton's National Guard reservists seemed to do a fairly good job at driving through the pretty horrible conditions in the Battle of the Bulge, right next to the regular units.

Comparing the likes of the Royal Green Jackets in the 70s, 80s etc to the Royal marines, Paras in terms of professionalism is ridiculous.

I am unsure. It's not as if National Service was still going on, I'm willing to bet that the RGJ were fairly professional. The question is how much training the two units obtained, what was their training and real-world optempo, their training budgets etc. A question I'm not sure I can answer.

I'm sure the history and prestige can help improve the standards in some cases though. For example, how many cadets in Sandhurst interview for the Parachute Regiment versus, say, the Royal Anglian Regiment? If the more prestigious regiments get more applicants then surely they're better placed to cherry pick the best cadets

That's a fair point. Then again, if you graduate Sandhurst, even in the bottom 10%, are you really a bad officer, at least sufficiently bad to drag down a unit (especially when compared to militaries whose officers did not go to Sandhurst)? It's not as if Eisenhower or Patton graduated at the top of their classes in West Point. (Both were bang in the middle)

AbusesToilets

The two main differences between regular units and Special Forces are mindset and budget. SF tends to attract and select those with more aggressive, agile mindsets.

They also have more funds to conduct higher levels of training, which the regular units don't have access or reason to perform. Things like advanced CQB, Intel collection and development courses, advanced insertion techniques (MFF, Scuba) etc.

IRLConor

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's a fair point. Then again, if you graduate Sandhurst, even in the bottom 10%, are you really a bad officer, at least sufficiently bad to drag down a unit (especially when compared to militaries whose officers did not go to Sandhurst)? It's not as if Eisenhower or Patton graduated at the top of their classes in West Point. (Both were bang in the middle)

I don't think it's necessarily a question of the less talented cadets turning into bad officers that drag their units down. Even someone who graduates dead last in their class is still considered at least "good enough". I just assumed (dangerous, I know!) that units with more prestige would have a better chance of attracting the exceptional cadets which would translate into better unit performance.

Your point about Patton and Eisenhower is well taken, but I'm not sure exactly how fair it is on either of them. Eisenhower may have finished in the middle of his class in West Point but he finished first in his Command and General Staff course. Anything I've ever read about him suggested that his real talents lay in his work as a general and his work as a young officer wasn't anything special. As for Patton, as I understand it he ranked poorly in West Point due to being below average in the academic side of things. I can only presume that his middle finishing position was due to being above average everywhere else.

Stovepipe

Any unit that considers itself elite is less likely to attract time-servers, whose first thought is for an easy life and an eye on the pension and has a "garrison" mentality, ie, no hardship, no rough field service, indoors job,etc,etc....it's harder to do these days but there are cushy numbers in every Army and no shortage of fellas willing to fill them.

ChicagoJoe

cruasder777 wrote: »

Very few people can pass commando training, p coy etc. The Royal Marines and Paras have more experience then most special forces, that's a reality. The Paras Pathfinders and royal marines brigade reconnaissance force do the same phase 1 selection as the SAS inc long tabs etc. So its hardly misinformed.

Most of the worlds special forces are not particularly well trained in their green role, nor do they have combat experience across the globe from mountains to deserts to the arctic.

The anti terrorism drills Special forces units learn can be drilled and learned by anyone, cops even perform many of these roles nowadays, having vast combat experience in different theatres is a different matter.


The simple reality is most special forces units are highly overrated, their weakness is the fact their role is so broad, example in the Falklands, the Royal marines tactically defeated Argentinian special forces in nearly every engagement.

Could you knock off the the British fanboy-jingoistic-tabloid propaganda masterbation. In The Falklands - How Close to Defeat, Argentina had a border conflict with Chile to worry about - they knew that in the event of a conflict with England the Chileans may use that as an opportunity to invade (they had come close to war in 1978). The elite Argentian troops were stationed along the Chilean border for the duration of that war to protect their homeland. IF that was not a consideration and they had been available for the island campaign it would be a different story. The bulk of the Argentinians on the islands were poorly trained conscripts and unprepared from the warmer northern part of Argentina.

See 12 minutes in

ChicagoJoe

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The two main differences between regular units and Special Forces are mindset and budget. SF tends to attract and select those with more aggressive, agile mindsets.

They also have more funds to conduct higher levels of training, which the regular units don't have access or reason to perform. Things like advanced CQB, Intel collection and development courses, advanced insertion techniques (MFF, Scuba) etc.

Stovepipe wrote: »

Any unit that considers itself elite is less likely to attract time-servers, whose first thought is for an easy life and an eye on the pension and has a "garrison" mentality, ie, no hardship, no rough field service, indoors job,etc,etc....it's harder to do these days but there are cushy numbers in every Army and no shortage of fellas willing to fill them.

Yes guys, you have answered quite a lot from my OP questions.

cruasder777

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Could you knock off the the British fanboy-jingoistic-tabloid propaganda masterbation. In The Falklands - How Close to Defeat, Argentina had a border conflict with Chile to worry about - they knew that in the event of a conflict with England the Chileans may use that as an opportunity to invade (they had come close to war in 1978). The elite Argentian troops were stationed along the Chilean border for the duration of that war to protect their homeland. IF that was not a consideration and they had been available for the island campaign it would be a different story. The bulk of the Argentinians on the islands were poorly trained conscripts and unprepared from the warmer northern part of Argentina.

See 12 minutes in

Your post is inaccurate. Argentine marines were professional troops, as were their various special forces and commando units in the Falklands, inc 601 commando company, 602 commando company who held South Georgia. Not all were conscripts as you claim.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/602_Commando_Company
That night, Captain Peter Babbington's K Company of 42 Commando, Royal Marines arrived nearby via helicopters. At about the same time, the 2nd Assault Section, having hidden all day, emerged from their hides intending to withdraw from the area but came under prompt and heavy fire from the SAS. That night, Captain Peter Babbington's K Company of 42 Commando, Royal Marines arrived nearby via helicopters. At about the same time, the 2nd Assault Section, having hidden all day, emerged from their hides intending to withdraw from the area but came under prompt and heavy fire from the SAS./COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]5[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc
The 1st Assault Section fought in the Battle of Top Malo House on 31 May 1982. In an action lasting 45 minutes, the section under Captain Jose A. Verseci was defeated and the survivors captured in the encounter with the British Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre, a Royal Marines unit, attached to the 3 Commando Brigade


3 Para defeated the 601st Commando Company and 601st National Gendarmerie Special Forces Squadron, on Mount Longdon.The 7th Regiment companies who supported them had trained for possible war against Chile and carried out some helicopter drills with the 601st Combat Aviation Battalion. Some of the 7th Regiment had been trained on a commando courses run by 601 company.

Bear in mind, 3 Para had been yomping 3 days and spending overnight outdoors with no tents in minus conditions, as they had been lost when the Arctic conveyor sank.

Quote3 PARA made a desperate march across the hills north of Mount Simon to seize the key piece of high ground above the settlement of Estancia, also known as Estancia House. The weather conditions were atrocious, with the Paras marching through steep slippery hillocks to the objective. Nick Rose was a private in 6 Platoon under Lieutenant Jonathan Shaw:


The terrain dictated exactly how we advanced. A lot of the time if we were going along on tracks – what few we did go on – we used Indian file, which is staggered file on either side of the track, like a zig-zag. But there are great rivers of rock – big white boulders – and you have to cross them and then there's the heather and the gorse and its constantly wet. So the wind chill factor was – I think somebody said minus 40 degrees – and storm force winds and horizontal rain – a nightmare scenario. Unquote

..Could an infantry of the line Battalion have done a 70 mile loaded tab/yomp in atrocious conditions, then fought a battle while exhausted against an enemy holding high ground ? I doubt it.



Other Argentine Special Forces in the Falklands war :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_Commandos_Group


On April 2, 1982, the unit integrated with the Amphibious Task Force in the Falklands Islands War, taking part in the Governor's House battle, the assault on Moody Brook barracks, the combat of the South Georgia Islands and a couple of recce missions. The group was awarded the Honor al valor en combate condecoration.

MrHogan35

Western ''Special Forces Troops'' are all hype look at how many of them got Ambushed in Afghanistan
and got their asses handed to them by the Taliban its only the weapons that gives them the upper hand
put them against ISIS without Airpower the same thing would happen.

cruasder777

MrHogan35 wrote: »

Western ''Special Forces Troops'' are all hype look at how many of them got Ambushed in Afghanistan
and got their asses handed to them by the Taliban its only the weapons that gives them the upper hand
put them against ISIS without Airpower the same thing would happen.

Where was this then ? In your imagination?

AbusesToilets

MrHogan35 wrote: »

Western ''Special Forces Troops'' are all hype look at how many of them got Ambushed in Afghanistan
and got their asses handed to them by the Taliban its only the weapons that gives them the upper hand
put them against ISIS without Airpower the same thing would happen.

I'm sure you speak from a position of authority earned through hard won experience. Or are just talking out of your 4th point of contact.

Jawgap

MrHogan35 wrote: »

Western ''Special Forces Troops'' are all hype look at how many of them got Ambushed in Afghanistan
and got their asses handed to them by the Taliban its only the weapons that gives them the upper hand
put them against ISIS without Airpower the same thing would happen.

Really?

Maybe you have different figures but the US and UK data shows that blast injuries and IEDs caused the majority of injuries and fatalities. In the case of the UK IEDs accounted for nearly twice as many deaths as gunshots did.

Likewise the US data lists "Hostile fire - Ambush" as causing less than 10 fatalities.

Incidentally, if anyone was wondering if a line infantry unit can move over significant distances on foot maybe the following from the PDF's website might help (posted up yesterday).....

Exercise Cambrian Patrol is a long-range, mission orientated International patrolling exercise held in Wales.

Physical Fitness, endurance, teamwork and determination must be combined with excellent infantry skills to complete this challenging patrol. A total of 119 teams (National and International) entered this year. The Irish Defence Forces team was drawn from 6 Infantry Battalion based in Custume Barracks, Athlone.

Navigating both by day and by night covering approximately 50km over 48 hours, over some very harsh Welsh Terrain and carrying between 80 – 100 lbs each, the teams were assessed at a number of stands on the long and arduous route.

Military skills, leadership and stamina are constantly evaluated during the patrol and marked with a system of points. Teams that successfully complete their mission can receive a number of different awards based on the number of points accumulated throughout the patrol. There is a Gold, Silver or Bronze medal or a certificate of merit depending on the total number of points they have gained throughout the patrol.

The Irish Defence Forces Team was one of only five teams to achieve a Gold Medal. This achievement is put into perspective by the fact that only approximately 4% of participants achieved the Gold Medal and almost one third of teams did not complete the patrol which is again a testament of how challenging this Exercise actually is.

The five teams who were awarded a Gold Medal were: 1st Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment; Gurkha Sittang Company; 2nd Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles; 8th Battalion Garwhal Rifles (India) and the Irish Defence Forces.

The team consisted of Lt. Glennon, Sgt Ryan, Cpl Pilkington, Pte Ward, Pte Moriarty, Pte Dunne, Pte Sherrif, Pte Loonam.

cruasder777

The teams in Cambrian Patrol train for it, they are of a higher standard then the average infantry unit.

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

The teams in Cambrian Patrol train for it, they are of a higher standard then the average infantry unit.

sure they do - but are they line infantry units? or......

cruasder777

They hadn't just spent 5 weeks on a ship, nor was it the whole battalion doing this, so its an invalid comparison.

cruasder777

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The two main differences between regular units and Special Forces are mindset and budget. SF tends to attract and select those with more aggressive, agile mindsets.

They also have more funds to conduct higher levels of training, which the regular units don't have access or reason to perform. Things like advanced CQB, Intel collection and development courses, advanced insertion techniques (MFF, Scuba) etc.

Most fail UK Special forces selection due to their map reading not being up to it, this is what stops them completing marches in time. followed by fitness and injury.

Map reading during UK Special forces selection is nails, you have to learn to visualise what's on the map in a 3d image, as opposed to lines on a map, anticipating every ravine, stream, every contour, you have to know every symbol on a map as second nature. Even a night, you also have to memorise grid references you get told once.

Those who do orienteering have a big advantage.

The solo loaded march element is what separates UK SF from other SF units who do loaded route marches in groups.

This is why Forward Air Controllers have the best SF selection rates, because their map reading skills are so much better then the average squaddie who applies.

jimmybeen

Hi, regarding Mount Longdon, it was indeed a tough nut to crack especially after setting off from San Carlos on foot on the 27th May and marching without stopping till we reached Teal Inlet, there we rested for one night then set off to Estancia house arriving over 31st May / 1st June, this journey was undertaken in the most extreme weather, we then lay up in the mountains till we attacked Mount Longdon, during this time it was absolutely freezing, we were in the grip of an Arctic winter, the Falklands campaign showed the Parachute Regiment at its very best, for anyone interested in an accurate account, including for the first time the Argentine view of the Sgt Ian McKay VC account, you need to read 'Three Days in June'
Youtube search: Parachute Regiment, Mount Longdon
Available on kindle and ebay search: Three Days in June
please read the book reviews on Amazon, 79 five star reviews and also a five star review from Soldier magazine.

ChicagoJoe

cruasder777 wrote: »

Your post is inaccurate. Argentine marines were professional troops, as were their various special forces and commando units in the Falklands, inc 601 commando company, 602 commando company who held South Georgia. Not all were conscripts as you claim.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/602_Commando_Company
That night, Captain Peter Babbington's K Company of 42 Commando, Royal Marines arrived nearby via helicopters. At about the same time, the 2nd Assault Section, having hidden all day, emerged from their hides intending to withdraw from the area but came under prompt and heavy fire from the SAS. That night, Captain Peter Babbington's K Company of 42 Commando, Royal Marines arrived nearby via helicopters. At about the same time, the 2nd Assault Section, having hidden all day, emerged from their hides intending to withdraw from the area but came under prompt and heavy fire from the SAS./COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]5[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc
The 1st Assault Section fought in the Battle of Top Malo House on 31 May 1982. In an action lasting 45 minutes, the section under Captain Jose A. Verseci was defeated and the survivors captured in the encounter with the British Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre, a Royal Marines unit, attached to the 3 Commando Brigade


3 Para defeated the 601st Commando Company and 601st National Gendarmerie Special Forces Squadron, on Mount Longdon.The 7th Regiment companies who supported them had trained for possible war against Chile and carried out some helicopter drills with the 601st Combat Aviation Battalion. Some of the 7th Regiment had been trained on a commando courses run by 601 company.

Bear in mind, 3 Para had been yomping 3 days and spending overnight outdoors with no tents in minus conditions, as they had been lost when the Arctic conveyor sank.

Quote3 PARA made a desperate march across the hills north of Mount Simon to seize the key piece of high ground above the settlement of Estancia, also known as Estancia House. The weather conditions were atrocious, with the Paras marching through steep slippery hillocks to the objective. Nick Rose was a private in 6 Platoon under Lieutenant Jonathan Shaw:


The terrain dictated exactly how we advanced. A lot of the time if we were going along on tracks – what few we did go on – we used Indian file, which is staggered file on either side of the track, like a zig-zag. But there are great rivers of rock – big white boulders – and you have to cross them and then there's the heather and the gorse and its constantly wet. So the wind chill factor was – I think somebody said minus 40 degrees – and storm force winds and horizontal rain – a nightmare scenario. Unquote

..Could an infantry of the line Battalion have done a 70 mile loaded tab/yomp in atrocious conditions, then fought a battle while exhausted against an enemy holding high ground ? I doubt it.



Other Argentine Special Forces in the Falklands war :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_Commandos_Group


On April 2, 1982, the unit integrated with the Amphibious Task Force in the Falklands Islands War, taking part in the Governor's House battle, the assault on Moody Brook barracks, the combat of the South Georgia Islands and a couple of recce missions. The group was awarded the Honor al valor en combate condecoration.

Wiki's as ' proof ' !!! Did you write them up yourself ? Just like a Brit douche bag, still mouthing off sh*t about a conflict 32 years ago long forgotten about by the rest of the world as proof of the Brit military's 'superiority' over everyone else :rolleyes:

Jawgap

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Wiki's as ' proof ' !!! Did you write them up yourself ? Just like a Brit douche bag, still mouthing off sh*t about a conflict 32 years ago long forgotten about by the rest of the world as proof of the Brit military's 'superiority' over everyone else :rolleyes:

Not really, the US Naval War College still teaches it as a case study (REF: NWC 1036).

.....and this year the US Army's Capabilities Integration Center (part of Training and Doctrine Command) re-issued it as a case study.

Leaving aside the various staff papers and theses published by Navy and Marine officers examining various aspect of the conflict.

The Dutch book "Stopping Wars and Making Peace" (2009) gives over a chapter to it.

There was also some joint Australian / Argentinian research published on it this year dealing with the air aspect of the war.

.....as well as some French research into the TV coverage.

In the last two years (based on Google Scholar) research about the war has been published in Romania (on the use of the exocet), Canada (diplomacy / expeditionary seapower), India (aircraft carriers) and Germany (signals intelligence).

cruasder777

ChicagoJoe wrote: »

Wiki's as ' proof ' !!! Did you write them up yourself ? Just like a Brit douche bag, still mouthing off sh*t about a conflict 32 years ago long forgotten about by the rest of the world as proof of the Brit military's 'superiority' over everyone else :rolleyes:

Reported

AbusesToilets

cruasder777 wrote: »

Most fail UK Special forces selection due to their map reading not being up to it, this is what stops them completing marches in time. followed by fitness and injury.

Map reading during UK Special forces selection is nails, you have to learn to visualise what's on the map in a 3d image, as opposed to lines on a map, anticipating every ravine, stream, every contour, you have to know every symbol on a map as second nature. Even a night, you also have to memorise grid references you get told once.

Those who do orienteering have a big advantage.

The solo loaded march element is what separates UK SF from other SF units who do loaded route marches in groups.

This is why Forward Air Controllers have the best SF selection rates, because their map reading skills are so much better then the average squaddie who applies.

Individual land navigation is a pretty standard activity in SF selection courses. SFAS for USSF, as well as the SMUs all base the physical portion of selection on rucking & land nav.

cruasder777

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Individual land navigation is a pretty standard activity in SF selection courses. SFAS for USSF, as well as the SMUs all base the physical portion of selection on rucking & land nav.

not quite true, nor to the same degree.

AbusesToilets

cruasder777 wrote: »

not quite true, nor to the same degree.

It's pretty much the case, the main Go/ No Go selector is individual land nav.

chopper6

cruasder777 wrote: »

I previously posted about my military experience on here in NI, the Gulf war and Croatia, I am not one to boast.


.

Got any pics of yourself in action?

Jawgap

chopper6 wrote: »

Got any pics of yourself in action?

Is this not one.......

AndyBoBandy

Who would you consider to be the baddest of the bad asses in terms of super elite men with blacked out faces?

SAS? Navy Seals? another force within these or other countries forces?

I've always heard that the Irish Rangers were pretty well trained & fairly highly regarded, is this true?

Beano

Jawgap wrote: »

Is this not one.......

You wouldnt think it was possible to fit so many people on one little balcony.

Beano

Andybobandy wrote: »

Who would you consider to be the baddest of the bad asses in terms of super elite men with blacked out faces?

SAS? Navy Seals? another force within these or other countries forces?

I've always heard that the Irish Rangers were pretty well trained & fairly highly regarded, is this true?

Probably the people you never hear about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division

knucklehead6

Beano wrote: »

You wouldnt think it was possible to fit so many people on one little balcony.

Ah now in fairness i think the biggest feat of over crowding was the Munster V All blacks match in 1978. Most recent estimates reckon there was something like 100000 people there going by who has claimed attendance. Despite Thomond Park having a capacity of 12000 at the time!!

chopper6

Jawgap wrote: »

Is this not one.......

Steely-eyed bringer of death!