Military type aircraft spotted over North Sea

whomitconcerns

So was flying back to ireland about 3,15 this afternoon. I think we were over north sea, were coming from eastern Europe. I saw a jet out on our right side and then noticed a second one. Military I guess from speed and movement. Anyway next thing from somewhere not far below the plane something flys. It was green, skinny with a long red nosecone. My instinctive uninformed opinion was it looked like some type of drone? Any ideas? There were 4 jets in total in our vicinity

arubex

Operation Joint Warrior has been running over northern Scotland for the past 10 days or so, were you up that far north? Lots of fast-jets mixing with maritime patrol and aggressor aircraft. Plenty of ships too.

I haven't heard about UAVs being involved but it would make sense, it's one of the few occasions where the aircraft have such unrestricted movement.

roundymac

Try reposting this on the military forum, they might have a better idea than the "civvies" over here.

Tenger

arubex wrote: »

Operation Joint Warrior has been running over northern Scotland for the past 10 days or so, .....

Does Ming Flanagan MEP know about it?

whomitconcerns

Could have been.we certainly took a detour north...can a mod move to military if more relevant?

Tenger

Thread moved from Aviation & Aircraft as the civvies didn't have the info.

discus

Very doubtful it was a drone. Not that close to a civil airline flightpath!

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/joint-warriors-at-raf-boulmer-16102014

Lads from my unit were getting some Forward Air Control stuff up in Scotland last week according to their photos on Facebook, so there are jets in the area.

cruasder777

whomitconcerns wrote: »

So was flying back to ireland about 3,15 this afternoon. I think we were over north sea, were coming from eastern Europe. I saw a jet out on our right side and then noticed a second one. Military I guess from speed and movement. Anyway next thing from somewhere not far below the plane something flys. It was green, skinny with a long red nosecone. My instinctive uninformed opinion was it looked like some type of drone? Any ideas? There were 4 jets in total in our vicinity

MONS, Belgium – NATO detected and monitored four groups of Russian military aircraft conducting significant military manoeuvers in European airspace over the Baltic Sea, North Sea/Atlantic Ocean, and Black Sea on 28 and 29 October 2014. These sizable Russian flights represent an unusual level of air activity over European airspace....

Six of the Russian aircraft then turned back to the north-east towards Russia, while two Tu-95 Bear H bombers continued south-west, parallel to the Norwegian coast, heading to the south-west. The Russian aircraft continued over the North Sea, and Typhoon fighters from the United Kingdom were scrambled in response. While over the Atlantic Ocean west of Portugal, the two Russian aircraft were intercepted and identified by F-16s from the Portuguese Air Force. The Russian aircraft turned back heading north-east, flying to the west of the United Kingdom. (Irish airspace ?)

Tenger

cruasder777 wrote: »

..........while two Tu-95 Bear H bombers continued south-west, parallel to the Norwegian coast, heading to the south-west. The Russian aircraft continued over the North Sea, and Typhoon fighters from the United Kingdom were scrambled in response. While over the Atlantic Ocean west of Portugal, the two Russian aircraft were intercepted and identified by F-16s from the Portuguese Air Force............

Big of a gap in coverage/reportage there...... "North Sea parallel to the Norwegian coast"...."Typhoons scrambled"...... "intercepted over the Atlantic west of Portugal"!!!

Morpheus

not to mention the HUGE gap west of ireland - all over ireland in fact.

cruasder777

Its from NATOs website

http://aco.nato.int/nato-tracks-largescale-russian-air-activity-in-europe.aspx

cruasder777

http://www.scotsman.com/news/raf-catches-russian-bombers-in-uk-airspace-1-796434




Quote :After intercepting the Russian bombers, the Tornados shadowed the Tupolev TU-160 aircraft as they flew south before turning north, just short of the Northern Ireland coast.Unquote



What would the protocol be if the Russians entered Irish airspace ?

Lusk_Doyle

cruasder777 wrote: »

http://www.scotsman.com/news/raf-catches-russian-bombers-in-uk-airspace-1-796434


What would the protocol be if the Russians entered Irish airspace ?

Buy them a pint?

cruasder777

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Buy them a pint?

During the cold war the Republic and NATO had a secret pact, its possible it allowed the RAF to intercept Russian planes in the republics air space, a similar pact exists to deal with terrorist threats in the air today.

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

During the cold war the Republic and NATO had a secret pact, its possible it allowed the RAF to intercept Russian planes in the republics air space, a similar pact exists to deal with terrorist threats in the air today.

No there isn't - it's a myth peddled about.

If you stop and think for a minute you'd realise that such a 'pact' would be completely unworkable.

For a start if the worst case scenario comes about and a plane that is a genuine threat is detected in Irish airspace - who gives the shoot order? I can't see Enda with the big red telephone talking to a couple of RAF Typhoon pilots and telling them to shoot.........nor can I see the British PM feeling compelled not to order a shootdown because Paddy objects.

Anyway, I'm even sure why - major events such as the recent G-8 summit aside - we'd be a target.

cruasder777

Jawgap wrote: »

No there isn't - it's a myth peddled about.

If you stop and think for a minute you'd realise that such a 'pact' would be completely unworkable.

For a start if the worst case scenario comes about and a plane that is a genuine threat is detected in Irish airspace - who gives the shoot order? I can't see Enda with the big red telephone talking to a couple of RAF Typhoon pilots and telling them to shoot.........nor can I see the British PM feeling compelled not to order a shootdown because Paddy objects.

Anyway, I'm even sure why - major events such as the recent G-8 summit aside - we'd be a target.

Its a fact it was in the media that the Republic formed a contingency plan with the UK govt after 9/11.

If there was no contingency plan, the state would not be doing its job. Its not just about shooting down, its also about escorting planes down who have been hijacked or not responding etc.

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

Its a fact it was in the media that the Republic formed a contingency plan with the UK govt after 9/11.

Where can I see / view this agreement? And maybe there was a contingency plan to cover the immediate aftermath (the few days after) September 11 but that doesn't mean there is a long standing arrangement.

cruasder777 wrote: »

If there was no contingency plan, the state would not be doing its just. Its not just about shooting down, its also about escorting planes down who have been hijacked or not responding etc.

So how would it work?

Let's say the most recent incident - MLA1605 - had happened over Dublin instead of London and let's assume that a couple of Typhoons are scrambled on QRA to intercept..........then what? What happens next?

What if the plane refuses to obey the instructions of the Tiffy driver? Does the RAF pilot say "MLA1605 from the L9T47, I’m instructed by the Government of the Irish Republic to warn you if you do not respond you will be shot down”? (or some other variation on the formula of the words used over London).

I'm sure with your extensive military experience you know contingency planning is all about the 'what-ifs" - so if the intercepted aircraft refuses to comply with the instruction is it shot down?

.....also, militaries all over the world are great ones for carrying out exercises - when was the last time this 'contingency plan' was exercised on? I find it hard to believe that two Typhoons made it over here to conduct a mock intercept without it appearing on aviation fora both on boards.ie and elsewhere?

folbotcar

A possible answer to the original question is that the green object with a red nose might be something like a aerial target drone. They tend to have red noses. Perhaps it was something intended to simulate an anti ship missile or something. There are a number of types out there. Exactly the sort of thing to be used in an exercise.

As for a possible contingency plan for an intercept of a 'rogue' aircraft over Ireland. It would be extraordinary if there wasn't some kind of arrangement in place. Just because nothing is published or announced doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This would be of concern to the British for certain and it's unlikely they haven't contacted the Irish government on the issue.

No Irish government wants to seen to be cooperating militarily with NATO at least in public. So keeping it low key would be the most likely scenario.

We won't know for sure unless it happens one day.

Morpheus

Shatter questioned smith back in early 2000's about this in dail debates. i cant find the exact one, but Smith refused to give him a yes no answer when he pestered him to ask if there were contingency agreements with the RAF.
I've tried searching oireachtas debates but the search function isnt working.

folbotcar

Morpheus wrote: »

Shatter questioned smith back in early 2000's about this in dail debates. i cant find the exact one, but Smith refused to give him a yes no answer when he pestered him to ask if there were contingency agreements with the RAF.
I've tried searching oireachtas debates but the search function isnt working.

Well I imagine Shatter now knows for sure as does Coveney. Without sounding like a conspiracy nut. I'm quite sure there are a number of agreements and arrangements which will never see the light of day unless the proverbial hits the fan. It's the Irish way. In WW2 G2 the intelligence service passed information directly to the British throughout the war. Was it a formal arrangement? One thing for sure the public didn't know it was going on.

I'm also reminded of the alleged arrangement during the troubles where if a British helicopter 'inadvertent' border crossing occurred nothing would be said unless it went public. In which case ritual complaints would be issued.

I remember once a big fuss being made when a British army Beaver aeroplane circled Mullingar a few times. The fact was that it had been into Baldonnel for a visit earlier. On the way back he circled Mullingar for a bit. Maybe his Mammy came from there!

The point being these visits were routine and normally unpublicised. Was there a formal arrangement. Who knows!

So if an intercept is required. We know one thing. The Air Corps can't do it. But they have the telephone number of someone who can.

Tenger

folbotcar wrote: »

......
I'm also reminded of the alleged arrangement during the troubles where if a British helicopter 'inadvertent' border crossing occurred nothing would be said unless it went public. In which case ritual complaints would be issued.
...

Anecdotally army foot patrols did inadvertently cross the border every now and then, Mostly there were told to feck off by the farmer who met them.



I would concur that any agreement between the 2 govts would be necessarily kept covert due to possible political ramifications.

folbotcar

Tenger wrote: »

Anecdotally army foot patrols did inadvertently cross the border every now and then, Mostly there were told to feck off by the farmer who met them.

I would concur that any agreement between the 2 govts would be necessarily kept covert due to possible political ramifications.

Anecdotally it wasn't just the British. It wasn't a farmer that tipped us them off. Just a sign in the forest. It was a long hot trek out of there down a shallow stream until reaching the border again.

It gave a new appreciation as to the ambiguity of the border in that area.

Jawgap

Just how would such an agreement work?

Any kind of examination of the systems involved would show it would be impractical to intercept a commercial jet unless the incident started way out in the Shanwick FIR (out to about 30 degrees west).

First ATC would have to notice the problem and presumably they have their own protocols to work through before bumping it up the line. Let's be generous and say that takes about 10 to 15 minutes.

It probably takes at least another 10 to 15 minutes before it arrives on someone's desk with the authority to begin executive action. Another 10 to 15 minutes to arrange a conference call between the Taoiseach, Minister for Transport and Minister for Defence. Perhaps slightly longer if the Minister for Justice and the Attorney General have to be involved.

Maybe 10 minutes to discuss and decide to ask for UK assistance - the plane in question is now an hour closer - a widebody commercial jet cruises at about 450 kts or about 520 mph. That would, assuming the problem is detected at the outer limits of Shanwick FIR, put the suspect aircraft about 250 miles off the Irish west coast.

Enda calls David and asks for assistance - another 5 to 10 minutes to get hold of the PM and explain the situation. David calls RAF Air Command who despatch the QRA Typhoons from Conningsby.

I'm open to correction but I don't believe the Typhoon has the legs to go supersonic, intercept a jet off the west coast and escort it in. The radius of action for the Typhoon if it goes supersonic for five minutes (at Mach 2 that's 'only' about 125 miles) is about 520 miles if you want a loiter time of about 1 hour.

It's 420 miles from Conningsby to the west coast of Ireland on a direct routing - so it's possible the intercept could happen over water......

Meanwhile, David and Enda continue their dicussions. The Typhoons intercept the jet and report back to the UK PM, via RAF Air Command, who presumably briefs Enda - then a decision has to be made.

It's probably an easy decision if the Typhoon pilot says there's a couple of swarthy looking chaps with towels around their head driving the bus.......but what if the information is more ambiguous.

What if Enda wants to shoot, but David says demurs because the situation doesn't meet the UK's criteria for executive action? Does the PM defer to the Taoiseach and order the Typhoon pilot to put an ASRAAM into the jet?

Or Enda hesitates and suddenly David decides that it's better to drop the jet in the Atlantic than closer to the UK?

And of course all of the above goes out the window if events unfold much closer to home such as an aircraft approaching from the south or east or the problem not being realised until the jet in question is well into Irish air space.

Morpheus

I dont know about this scenario, but id like to hope someone from a govt agency peruses this board and this thread from time to time

cruasder777

Jawgap wrote: »

Where can I see / view this agreement? And maybe there was a contingency plan to cover the immediate aftermath (the few days after) September 11 but that doesn't mean there is a long standing arrangement.



So how would it work?

Let's say the most recent incident - MLA1605 - had happened over Dublin instead of London and let's assume that a couple of Typhoons are scrambled on QRA to intercept..........then what? What happens next?

What if the plane refuses to obey the instructions of the Tiffy driver? Does the RAF pilot say "MLA1605 from the L9T47, I’m instructed by the Government of the Irish Republic to warn you if you do not respond you will be shot down”? (or some other variation on the formula of the words used over London).

I'm sure with your extensive military experience you know contingency planning is all about the 'what-ifs" - so if the intercepted aircraft refuses to comply with the instruction is it shot down?

.....also, militaries all over the world are great ones for carrying out exercises - when was the last time this 'contingency plan' was exercised on? I find it hard to believe that two Typhoons made it over here to conduct a mock intercept without it appearing on aviation fora both on boards.ie and elsewhere?

Obviously there is a plan in action, as not long ago the RAF intercepted a Russian bomber heading towards Donegal.

Just 20 miles from the republics airspace.

Jawgap

cruasder777 wrote: »

Obviously there is a plan in action, as not long ago the RAF intercepted a Russian bomber heading towards Donegal.

Just 20 miles from the republics airspace.

why is it obvious there is a plan? Never mind a 'plan in action'?

Yes, in 2010 a pair of Tu-160 Blackjacks turned back just north of Donegal - but guess what? Co Derry / Londonderry is right beside Donegal so my guess is the objective was to probe to UK / NATO airspace rather than Irish airspace.

Also they were detected, tracked and intercepted well away from Irish airspace. F3s from Leuchars intercepted them in international airspace near Stornoway (the Isle of Lewis) - that's about 180 miles north of Donegal. The intercept was wholly under the control of the RAF and did not in anyway involve a request from the Irish authorities - so I'm not sure how this single example supports your assertion that a plan exists.

.......and we (as in Ireland) also exercise on plans for potential events with a lower probability / occurrence than the hijacking of a commercial jet - so again you would wonder why, if such a plan exists it is not exercised on at least as frequently as the contingency plan for dealing with a fire / explosion at Sellafield (which happened once nearly 60 years ago) or the plan for dealing with a major explosion / oil spill (which happened once nearly 40 years ago)?

folbotcar

Your version of the plan Jawgap seems very complicated. After all I'm sure they interceptors are not launched on the say so of David Cameron. Clearly the military make the decision and I'm sure the UK government are informed after the intercept is launched.

If there is a plan in place it will involve a member of the Irish military being informed and passing it to the UK military who will place the fighters on standby. Contacting half the cabinet first makes no sense at all.

Now it's entirely possible there is no agreement and essentially there is no protection should a hijacked jet be aimed at downtown Dublin but the British are not going to wait until a potential attacker is crossing the Welsh coast. They will intercept it as early as possible and if that is over Ireland so be it.

Perhaps that's the agreement or plan. The RAF get carte blanche to intercept any threat and the diplomatic issues can be sorted later.

Most likely the scenario would be an unresponsive aircraft on Shannon ATC. They would inform London ATC and they would contact the RAF. Simple as that.

Jawgap

folbotcar wrote: »

Your version of the plan Jawgap seems very complicated. After all I'm sure they interceptors are not launched on the say so of David Cameron. Clearly the military make the decision and I'm sure the UK government are informed after the intercept is launched.

In a normal QRA RAF Air Command runs / handles the intercept. And I don't doubt that if another NATO country requests the intercept or hands off that it's all done at the operational level - but do you really think a request for an intercept in a non-aligned country's air space is handled at the level of an intermediate command?

folbotcar wrote: »

If there is a plan in place it will involve a member of the Irish military being informed and passing it to the UK military who will place the fighters on standby. Contacting half the cabinet first makes no sense at all.

Of course it does - you are talking about a potential shootdown of an unarmed commercial aircraft. ATC work for IIA/DoT - presumably they have their protocols.

Chain of command goes through the Minister of Defence to the Taoiseach and in the case of it becoming a civil emergency you'd want Justice there too. You need the A-G to provide advice on the legality of any action.

folbotcar wrote: »

Now it's entirely possible there is no agreement and essentially there is no protection should a hijacked jet be aimed at downtown Dublin but the British are not going to wait until a potential attacker is crossing the Welsh coast. They will intercept it as early as possible and if that is over Ireland so be it.

Perhaps that's the agreement or plan. The RAF get carte blanche to intercept any threat and the diplomatic issues can be sorted later.

Most likely the scenario would be an unresponsive aircraft on Shannon ATC. They would inform London ATC and they would contact the RAF. Simple as that.

Which Shannon ATC would contact which 'London' ATC? There are a number of control centres operating at those respective locations. And anyway, QRA flights are initiated through Scampton - they monitor the UK's airspace and spot the tracks that need further investigation.

If there was something heading towards us and the UK was potentially the target the RAF would simply fly the QRA and have them loiter just off the Welsh coast and wait to intercept the aircraft in the UK's airspace.

folbotcar

Jawgap wrote: »

In a normal QRA RAF Air Command runs / handles the intercept. And I don't doubt that if another NATO country requests the intercept or hands off that it's all done at the operational level - but do you really think a request for an intercept in a non-aligned country's air space is handled at the level of an intermediate command?

Yes in the event there is a protocol in place with that country.

Of course it does - you are talking about a potential shootdown of an unarmed commercial aircraft. ATC work for IIA/DoT - presumably they have their protocols.

Chain of command goes through the Minister of Defence to the Taoiseach and in the case of it becoming a civil emergency you'd want Justice there too. You need the A-G to provide advice on the legality of any action.

Let's assume this scenario came across your desk. Is that how you'd recommend it be handled? It's impractical apart from anything else. If the rogue aircraft is descending directly towards Dublin city centre there won't be time for the niceties of chain of command.

Which Shannon ATC would contact which 'London' ATC? There are a number of control centres operating at those respective locations. And anyway, QRA flights are initiated through Scampton - they monitor the UK's airspace and spot the tracks that need further investigation.

If there was something heading towards us and the UK was potentially the target the RAF would simply fly the QRA and have them loiter just off the Welsh coast and wait to intercept the aircraft in the UK's airspace.

All of Shannon's ATC frequencies are housed in the same centre although occasionally when you speak to a 'Shannon' frequency you're actually speaking to a controller in the Dublin centre. So which one? Well the controller on the frequency working the aircraft. Let's say he loses contact, he contacts his supervisor. Once it's clear it's not the usual radio failure and the aircraft continues. The supervisor picks up the phone to his point of contact in London ATC.

As for you scenario with the Typhoons loitering in the middle of the Irish sea waiting for the bogey while quietly respecting Ireland's sovereignty. Who launched them? If Shannon has no mandate to contact the British then how would they know this particular aircraft was a problem at all? An intercept is not permission to shoot it down. This is where the your cabinet meeting comes into play. If the target is Dublin then permission would be needed either pre arranged or from a relevant person. If not then simply waiting until it enters London or Scottish airspace would be the time.

But it's all speculation until something happens.

Jawgap

folbotcar wrote: »

Yes in the event there is a protocol in place with that country.

Let's assume this scenario came across your desk. Is that how you'd recommend it be handled? It's impractical apart from anything else. If the rogue aircraft is descending directly towards Dublin city centre there won't be time for the niceties of chain of command.

All of Shannon's ATC frequencies are housed in the same centre although occasionally when you speak to a 'Shannon' frequency you're actually speaking to a controller in the Dublin centre. So which one? Well the controller on the frequency working the aircraft. Let's say he loses contact, he contacts his supervisor. Once it's clear it's not the usual radio failure and the aircraft continues. The supervisor picks up the phone to his point of contact in London ATC.

As for you scenario with the Typhoons loitering in the middle of the Irish sea waiting for the bogey while quietly respecting Ireland's sovereignty. Who launched them? If Shannon has no mandate to contact the British then how would they know this particular aircraft was a problem at all? An intercept is not permission to shoot it down. This is where the your cabinet meeting comes into play. If the target is Dublin then permission would be needed either pre arranged or from a relevant person. If not then simply waiting until it enters London or Scottish airspace would be the time.

But it's all speculation until something happens.

Seriously look up the map of the RAF QRA's operational area (can't post links at the moment - I'm on a phone). The Operational Area extends only half away across the Irish Sea. And Shanwick FIR is monitored out of Scotland as well as from Shannon.

NATO run an integrated defence so there's no need for bilateral protocols.

As for the 'niceties' of the chain of command - if, as you seem to suggest, they should be abandoned in an emergency what do you do? Ring RAF Air Command at High Wycombe and ask to be put through to the Duty Battlespace Manager? Or maybe someone has the mobile for the Duty Master Controller in Scampton!

QRAs rarely involve ATC contact - Scampton (and Boulmer) monitor the various data feeds to build up the Recognised Air Picture - that's how they decide what do and when. They don't wait for ATC to get on to them before ordering a scramble.

folbotcar

Jawgap wrote: »

Seriously look up the map of the RAF QRA's operational area (can't post links at the moment - I'm on a phone). The Operational Area extends only half away across the Irish Sea. And Shanwick FIR is monitored out of Scotland as well as from Shannon.

NATO run an integrated defence so there's no need for bilateral protocols.

As for the 'niceties' of the chain of command - if, as you seem to suggest, they should be abandoned in an emergency what do you do? Ring RAF Air Command at High Wycombe and ask to be put through to the Duty Battlespace Manager? Or maybe someone has the mobile for the Duty Master Controller in Scampton!

QRAs rarely involve ATC contact - Scampton (and Boulmer) monitor the various data feeds to build up the Recognised Air Picture - that's how they decide what do and when. They don't wait for ATC to get on to them before ordering a scramble.

So will they wait for Enda to get out of bed? That's my point. It's too important for chain of command. They will launch. I would hope there is a tacit or even explicit agreement between the two governments for that.

It's too important to play the fantasy neutrality game.