Dublin House Prices 2015

Zamboni

The Spider wrote: »

Well then stop posting nonsense about how good people had it in the 80's!:rolleyes:

.....and ignore.

jmayo

The Spider wrote: »

Lot of nonsense, when people bought those houses Ireland was a basket case, no jobs a war in the north and a small percentage of people went to college. Why should anyone move out or sell up, just because you or anyone else id finding it difficult to buy a house in an area you feel you deserve to live.

You have options with your education, you could move to Cork or another urban center and buy your ideal house, but let me guess you'd like to be close to family etc. well tough luck buddy those houses are now beyond your reach, so you'll need to assess what you want, if you want to live in Dublin and have access to what you see as high paying jobs then you'll have to get one that pays you enough to accommodate the lifestyle you feel you deserve, otherwise buy what you can afford.

If you want a big house then move out of Dublin and get a job that may not pay the same but you'll be able to get the big house. Ironically enough that'll, put you in still a better position than the previous generation, and who knows in twenty years time the house could be worth a million too, then you'll be happy as you'd have made sacrifices for your ideal house, not as many as previous generations mind you.

Ahh ffs, I am now been driven to agree with The Spider.

BTW a certain poster has commented how they have an engineering degree and having one myself I do concurr they are generally hard earned.
But guess what some of the supposed "lucky" people the poster is lambasting for taking up valuable houses having bought them in the 60s/70s/80s, may actually have engineering degrees as well.
And what's more these people probably did engineering courses and worked as engineers when there weren't computers to carry out half the calculations that need to be performed in various engineering projects.

And the same poster comments how they emigrated for 7 years.
Well guess what half the bloody country used to emigrate back in the 50s/60s/70s/80s and they didn't have a Ryan Air option to fly home for a few quid every other month.
They could chose to either get a slow boat from the likes of Liverpool or Holyhead or they could save for months to fly with Aer Lingus.
There wasn't email, there wasn't Skype, Facebook, Twitter, mobile phones, etc to keep in daily if not hourly contact with family and friends back home.

And most who emigrated didn't have the option of coming home to get the well paying job that would allow them buy a property here one day.
They had to stay away and put down roots elsewhere.

Yes somethings are harder for today's generations, but lets not get carried away that previous generations were somehow blessed lucky and had it easy.
Each generation will face different obstacles and different circumstances.

Personally I do think things have gotten easier as the years move on and what some see as major issues today would for most of past generations would have been the least of their concerns.

For instance in the 80s most graduates concerns was not about what type of house they would get to buy, but would they actually get a job in this country.
In the 50s or 60s getting to college wasn't a concern for most, getting a job after finishing school probably long before leaving certificate was the concern.

MouseTail

It is absolutely laughable (and a bit insulting to those of us who lived through it), that someone would contend the 80s were cushier. Economically, politically, socially, any measure you want.

Zamboni

jmayo wrote: »

Ahh ffs, I am now been driven to agree with The Spider.

Sad state of affairs my friend.

lima

jmayo wrote: »

For instance in the 80s most graduates concerns was not about what type of house they would get to buy, but would they actually get a job in this country.

This is actually still a concern amongst most graduates

I'm not saying they had a walk in the park, I'm just saying that the effort required to work to buy a house in Ranelagh today is multiples of what it was back then. It's actually impossible on a PAYE salary alone whereas it was possible back then.

Plus if you manage to buy a big old house today, it looks unlikely to increase in value in 30 years time by as much as it did over the last 30 years.

Hence for an old person looking back on the effort they went through to have a middle class existence, it worked out beautifully as they now have a big massive house that would be impossible to get nowadays.

by the seaside

ted1 wrote: »

But selling a big 5 bed with good gardens in a very good location to get a 1 or 2 bed shoe box isn't a good return.

Hmmm, but how about if it was a 2 bedroom house with a garden? And you forgot the cash in the return!

gaius c

From the PPR.

26/09/2014 €180,000.00 113 FORTLAWN PARK, CLONSILLA, DUBLIN 15, Dublin 15

For those not in the know, Fortlawn park would be a contender for "roughest estate in West Dublin".
4 times average income or nearly €200 per square foot seems a bit steep for this slice of West Dublin living.

mariaalice

lima wrote: »

This is actually still a concern amongst most graduates

I'm not saying they had a walk in the park, I'm just saying that the effort required to work to buy a house in Ranelagh today is multiples of what it was back then. It's actually impossible on a PAYE salary alone whereas it was possible back then.

Plus if you manage to buy a big old house today, it looks unlikely to increase in value in 30 years time by as much as it did over the last 30 years.

Hence for an old person looking back on the effort they went through to have a middle class existence, it worked out beautifully as they now have a big massive house that would be impossible to get nowadays.

I kinda agree with that, however its not as simple as that buying in the 1980th was different, there is an obsession about 'rought' areas and schools now that wasn't there in the 1980th, for example a private estate would never have been described as 'rough' in the 1980th, expectations have risen enormously.

jmayo

lima wrote: »

This is actually still a concern amongst most graduates

I'm not saying they had a walk in the park, I'm just saying that the effort required to work to buy a house in Ranelagh today is multiples of what it was back then. It's actually impossible on a PAYE salary alone whereas it was possible back then.

Ok there are certain things that have really changed since these people bought these houses.
Some people have AFAIK pointed them out or alluded to them.
You need to take them into account when you compare circumstances.

1. Up until the mid 90s growth and economic expansion in this country was frankly pi** poor.
For most of the history of this state we were in some form of recession or economic stagnation.
Immigration was something you found in the dictionary.
We only ever had Emigration with a capital E.
Thus we did not have the demand for houses.

2. A lot of people lived in corporation and council housing. There wasn't the massive amount of rent allowance paid to the private sector that basically uses taxpayers money to fund the purchase of property by private sector landlords.

3. Up until at least late 70s or even 80s the norm was a single income household.
Hell ask some older woman who worked in public service about how she had to resign when she married.
It was enshrined in the system.
I remember staying with relatives in housing estate in Galway as a kid in late 70s, early 80s.
On any street you would find the wives at home or doing part time jobs and the husband at work.
So no one would have been able to afford a house if it was relying on double incomes because there weren't any.
Of course the plus to this was that childcare associated costs was a non issue.

4. You mention you have a degree, degrees are now much more common.
You are no longer the unusual one, but the norm.

5. I remember when basically around 60% of you pay went on taxes.

6. Interest rates in Ireland were double digit and 100% mortgages weren't even thought of nevermind available.
Interest rates now are at an all time low.

The plus was there wasn't as much personal debt as today, but then again there never had been any cheap money available from banks.

7. You mention Ranelagh. Ranelagh was once a village, Stillorgan was once a village outside Dublin, Tallaght was once a village out in the country.
Areas that were either considered too far out or undesirable because of who lived in area can become more desirable over time and thus prices increase.

lima wrote: »

Plus if you manage to buy a big old house today, it looks unlikely to increase in value in 30 years time by as much as it did over the last 30 years.

Ok as I said above, up until the mid 90s and the advent of the real celtic tiger and the tech/dotcom bubble we never had real sustainable growth in this country. This led to a rise in property prices.
Then add in the phoney celtic tiger, ala the cheap credit fueled property bubble, which pushed property ever higher.
Now we are again in a phoney situation because lack of supply, state interference and bank inaction has caused property prices to rise again.
For a lot of us, you included, there is a belief that prices are currently too high and unsustainable.
Thus when things finally correct the ones who you have been complaining about will probably find that their property is no longer worth a 1million, but 900k or 800k.

Do not count the last 30 years as the norm for Irish house prices.
Yes some people were lucky to have been in the right time to take advantage, then again they might have been born during the war and have had rationing for years.

lima wrote: »

Hence for an old person looking back on the effort they went through to have a middle class existence, it worked out beautifully as they now have a big massive house that would be impossible to get nowadays.

As some else mentioned brieftly there have been huge massive changes in Ireland and you are focussing in on one set that doesn't suit you.

The trip undertaken yesterday by the women going to Belfast for abortion pills is a reminder for some of us that back when a lot of these people you envy were buying these houses, women went on a similar trip to Belfast.
But get this it was to buy condoms and the pill.
Yes you might have been able to buy a cheaper house, but no way a box of durex.
Now which age would you rather live in.

MouseTail

Well said Jmayo, and add to it political instability, in 1982 there were 3 general elections iirc. Also third level was a pipe dream for the vast majority of young people until the arrival of the first tranche of European funding to pay for grants, that was around 1985 I think.

El_Dangeroso

Complaining about not paying 1980's house prices compared to now is like complaining about Apple's 1990's stock price compared to now.

Markets change and the property market is no different which is why people invest their money in it.

Now whether speculation on the property market should be disincentivised by government policy is another matter..

by the seaside

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Complaining about not paying 1980's house prices compared to now is like complaining about Apple's 1990's stock price compared to now.

Markets change and the property market is no different which is why people invest their money in it.

Now whether speculation on the property market should be disincentivised by government policy is another matter..

So is complaining about living in overcrowded accommodation like complaining about not having enough Apple shares?

lima

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Complaining about not paying 1980's house prices compared to now is like complaining about Apple's 1990's stock price compared to now.

Markets change and the property market is no different which is why people invest their money in it.

Now whether speculation on the property market should be disincentivised by government policy is another matter..

Houses built then are the same as houses built now. In fact house build then are the most sought after! Houses haven't changed, however Apple has changed from a back-ally startup to one of the worlds biggest companies.

lima

jmayo wrote: »

Ok there are certain things that have really changed since these people bought these houses.
Some people have AFAIK pointed them out or alluded to them.
You need to take them into account when you compare circumstances.

1. Up until the mid 90s growth and economic expansion in this country was frankly pi** poor.
For most of the history of this state we were in some form of recession or economic stagnation.
Immigration was something you found in the dictionary.
We only ever had Emigration with a capital E.
Thus we did not have the demand for houses.

2. A lot of people lived in corporation and council housing. There wasn't the massive amount of rent allowance paid to the private sector that basically uses taxpayers money to fund the purchase of property by private sector landlords.

3. Up until at least late 70s or even 80s the norm was a single income household.
Hell ask some older woman who worked in public service about how she had to resign when she married.
It was enshrined in the system.
I remember staying with relatives in housing estate in Galway as a kid in late 70s, early 80s.
On any street you would find the wives at home or doing part time jobs and the husband at work.
So no one would have been able to afford a house if it was relying on double incomes because there weren't any.
Of course the plus to this was that childcare associated costs was a non issue.

4. You mention you have a degree, degrees are now much more common.
You are no longer the unusual one, but the norm.

5. I remember when basically around 60% of you pay went on taxes.

6. Interest rates in Ireland were double digit and 100% mortgages weren't even thought of nevermind available.
Interest rates now are at an all time low.

The plus was there wasn't as much personal debt as today, but then again there never had been any cheap money available from banks.

7. You mention Ranelagh. Ranelagh was once a village, Stillorgan was once a village outside Dublin, Tallaght was once a village out in the country.
Areas that were either considered too far out or undesirable because of who lived in area can become more desirable over time and thus prices increase.



Ok as I said above, up until the mid 90s and the advent of the real celtic tiger and the tech/dotcom bubble we never had real sustainable growth in this country. This led to a rise in property prices.
Then add in the phoney celtic tiger, ala the cheap credit fueled property bubble, which pushed property ever higher.
Now we are again in a phoney situation because lack of supply, state interference and bank inaction has caused property prices to rise again.
For a lot of us, you included, there is a belief that prices are currently too high and unsustainable.
Thus when things finally correct the ones who you have been complaining about will probably find that their property is no longer worth a 1million, but 900k or 800k.

Do not count the last 30 years as the norm for Irish house prices.
Yes some people were lucky to have been in the right time to take advantage, then again they might have been born during the war and have had rationing for years.



As some else mentioned brieftly there have been huge massive changes in Ireland and you are focussing in on one set that doesn't suit you.

The trip undertaken yesterday by the women going to Belfast for abortion pills is a reminder for some of us that back when a lot of these people you envy were buying these houses, women went on a similar trip to Belfast.
But get this it was to buy condoms and the pill.
Yes you might have been able to buy a cheaper house, but no way a box of durex.
Now which age would you rather live in.

But sure didn't it work out for some! despite all this that went on, they were still able to secure property for a relatively smaller part of their one salary per home.

We have all this 'opportunity' and it is still harder to buy what they were able to... even if you go 1hr outside Dublin.

Also, Ranelagh was an inner suburb in the 1960's or 1970's like it still is now.. even back in 1913 and even 1902:

http://www.swilson.info/maps/dublincity_1913.php
http://xcakelabs.com/labs/lab3/samplecode/Maps/stationers-company_british-almanac_1902_dublin_2526_1941_600.jpg

MouseTail

Because as has been explained the middle class was tiny then compared to now.

The_Morrigan

lima wrote: »

But sure didn't it work out for some! despite all this that went on, they were still able to secure property for a relatively smaller part of their one salary per home.

We have all this 'opportunity' and it is still harder to buy what they were able to... even if you go 1hr outside Dublin.

Also, Ranelagh was an inner suburb in the 1960's or 1970's like it still is now.. even back in 1913 and even 1902:

http://www.swilson.info/maps/dublincity_1913.php
http://xcakelabs.com/labs/lab3/samplecode/Maps/stationers-company_british-almanac_1902_dublin_2526_1941_600.jpg

Lima most people still had nothing.
My parents bought their first house in 79 for less than 10K punts. They had one car which was only used for family outings, Dad biked to work daily and the shop was within walking distance. They had lodgers in to supplement my dad's income. They didn't travel outside of Ireland on holidays. We had hand my down clothes from other family members. We never had take aways or ate out in restaurants. There was one telly with two channels. We played outside with bikes and balls and skipping ropes there were no fancy games consoles or smart phones or tablets. No broadband.
My parents had no money left over once they paid the bills and mortgage.

Do you honestly think you are comparing like with like now? They might have still managed it on a single income but they often had to make massive sacrifices in which to do so and the lifestyle was completely different. You didn't have credit easily available. You didn't have as many expenses. You also have to consider that it was the local manager that made the decisions and not a random punter pushing buttons in a far away head office.

You can't compare how houses were bought in this country 20-30 years ago to now.

lima

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Lima most people still had nothing.
My parents bought their first house in 79 for less than 10K punts. They had one car which was only used for family outings, Dad biked to work daily and the shop was within walking distance. They had lodgers in to supplement my dad's income. They didn't travel outside of Ireland on holidays. We had hand my down clothes from other family members. We never had take aways or ate out in restaurants. There was one telly with two channels. We played outside with bikes and balls and skipping ropes there were no fancy games consoles or smart phones or tablets. No broadband.
My parents had no money left over once they paid the bills and mortgage.

Do you honestly think you are comparing like with like now? They might have still managed it on a single income but they often had to make massive sacrifices in which to do so and the lifestyle was completely different. You didn't have credit easily available. You didn't have as many expenses. You also have to consider that it was the local manager that made the decisions and not a random punter pushing buttons in a far away head office.

You can't compare how houses were bought in this country 20-30 years ago to now.

But people your parents age would be sitting on a goldmine now enjoying a prosperous retirement in a home no one in this day could afford.

The_Morrigan

lima wrote: »

But people your parents age would be sitting on a goldmine now enjoying a prosperous retirement in a home no one in this day could afford.

My parents are broke lima...so no they aren't sitting on a goldmine nor enjoying a prosperous retirement. Remember one income also means one pension.
My parents 4 bed bungalow is worth less than my 2 bed apartment.

mariaalice

People are being a bit hard on lima, My first husband and I were purchaser's in the early 1980th and it is a fact that in the areas were we had our house and with the jobs we had, there Is no way that anyone in similar circumstances could do it today.

That's not the full story however expectations have risen hugely particularly of having a middle class life style. Today there is a sense of horror at only being able to afford a house in west Dublin, in the 1980th it would have been thank god we were able to buy a house. I am not blaming anyone for that its modern life people do have much higher expectations of everything in life.

As for the education thing the IT's have been around since the 1970th but before that there was just the universities and DIT. The civil service and the bank took on huge amounts of people straight from school, a job in the bank was almost considered akin to winning the lotto you would be made for life. The vast majority did not go to college that changed form the1970th onwards

mariaalice

The_Morrigan wrote: »

My parents are broke lima...so no they aren't sitting on a goldmine nor enjoying a prosperous retirement. Remember one income also means one pension.
My parents 4 bed bungalow is worth less than my 2 bed apartment.

That not the same for everyone, my ex husband is retired on a nice( not well off) pension and lives very well and I have met plenty of the type that were able to take early retirement from jobs that have very nice pensions attached.
If you purchased a house in Blackrock/Castleknock/Clontarf etc in the 1970th and your mortgage paid off you have become enormously asset wealthy thats a fact.

The_Morrigan

mariaalice wrote: »

That not the same for everyone, my ex husband is retired on a nice( not well off) pension and lives very well and I have met plenty of the type that were able to take early retirement from jobs that have very nice pensions attached.
If you purchased a house in Blackrock/Castleknock/Clontarf etc in the 1970th and your mortgage paid off you have become enormously asset wealthy thats a fact.

Oh I know it's not the same for everyone, but there seems to be a lot of assumptions that buying 30 years ago was easier and that those who did are rich and living it up.

That isn't the case at all.

El_Dangeroso

lima wrote: »

Houses built then are the same as houses built now. In fact house build then are the most sought after! Houses haven't changed, however Apple has changed from a back-ally startup to one of the worlds biggest companies.

The houses may be the same but the area and economic environment and the demand is not. And that's all that matters.

Apple shares were a bad example, but take any commodity that goes up and down in price, it's functionally the same thing, but the market changes.

We can't get back 1980's prices without getting back 1980's high interest rates, hyperinflation and economic depression. (Anyone who thinks the recent recession compares in any way to the 80's does not remember the 80's)

euroboom13

We are at an unreal time at the moment.

Super low rates.

Its a hard pill to swallow but as rates go up buyers disappear.(rates have only left room for up, no more down)

So be patient, if you feel house prices are unreachable for you ,they probably are for most people, which means change is coming.

Just because house`s seem to be in be in poor supply, doesn`t mean that will last.

New lending restrictions will bring value back, and if rates start to rise just a bit, second home investors will be putting up for sale signs.

Don`t let jealous eyes cloud your judgement here, the mortgage is the curse not the goal.

Ritchi

euroboom13 wrote: »

We are at an unreal time at the moment.

Super low rates.

Its a hard pill to swallow but as rates go up buyers disappear.(rates have only left room for up, no more down)

So be patient, if you feel house prices are unreachable for you ,they probably are for most people, which means change is coming.

Maybe I'm missing something, but if you can't afford to buy with low rates, you won't be able to buy with high rates?

If people are outbidding you with these low rates, they'll still be able to afford more than you when rates go up, and outbid you then.

mariaalice

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Oh I know it's not the same for everyone, but there seems to be a lot of assumptions that buying 30 years ago was easier and that those who did are rich and living it up.

That isn't the case at all.

I know its not but for some it has (by an accident of house prices infliction ) worked out very well.

Its not really relevant though to anyone buying a house today though, so its just a bit of moan or a moot point really.

Sala

People were better savers in the 80s I think. they grew up with no money for the most part, so they were used to not wasting money. From my own parents stories they were living on pennies before pay day after buying a home but the most important thing was getting a house (Actually, that is something we can blame them for! Fostering the idea of home ownership as the be all and end all in their kids!!)

My own folks had something like 30% deposit aged 22 that they saved themselves and the mortgage at 16% interest was one persons whole salary. I know they said their "treat" was to buy a four pack of lager on a Friday. I think the way my own generation sees being broke is completely different to our folks - i.e. if one of my friends is "flat broke" instead of going out we get a takeaway and wine in... I think that would have been a massive treat for our parents saving in the 80s. I don't mean to disrespect anyone seriously in financial trouble, but I think most people, myself included, with jobs and saving for houses still live lifestyles that are hugely extravagant compared to those in the 80s

mariaalice

The Spider wrote: »

Sigh! where do I even start on this, I'll give it a go. In the 80's there was a huge recession in Ireland, not many people had jobs and there was massive emigration, so yes those lucky enough to have a job could possibly have bought in Rathfarnham etc.

There were zero building jobs, the economy ground to a halt, the amount of people with a college education was miniscule, lot's of people didn't even do their leaving cert, instead leaving after the intercert to either work in a factory or try get a trade, for which there was no work.

The road network was non existant so you didn't have people coming up to Dublin as much shall we say. Ireland was an industrial country you still had jobs in factories like waterford crystal which employed the majority population in waterford at least.

There really are some silly assumptions from people who don't even seem to have a basic grasp of history in Ireland, I suggest you look at the following link to get just maybe a bare idea of what Ireland was like, when you suggest everyone was off buying mansions and only had one income.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

A lot of that is wrong if you have a look at when all the large esates were developed in Tallaght, Rathfarnham, Swords, Bray, Clonsilla, ect it was the 1970th and 80ths someone was buying them.

The Spider

mariaalice wrote: »

A lot of that is wrong if you have a look at when all the large esates were developed in Tallaght, Rathfarnham, Swords, Bray, Clonsilla, ect it was the 1970th and 80ths someone was buying them.

I disagree that a lot of that link is wrong, the large estates were indeed built in the 70's and 80's and people did buy them, but I think you'll find that a lot of houses particularly in Tallaght were social housing, so by definiton weren't bought. The state no longer supplies the kind of social housing it once did.

(One slight note it's 1970's not 1970th, sorry driving me nuts.)

mariaalice

The Spider wrote: »

I disagree that a lot of that link is wrong, the large estates were indeed built in the 70's and 80's and people did buy them, but I think you'll find that a lot of houses particularly in Tallaght were social housing, so by definiton weren't bought. The state no longer supplies the kind of social housing it once did.

(One slight note it's 1970's not 1980h, sorry driving me nuts.)

Huge private estates were built in all the areas I mentioned including Tallaght. in the 1970's and 1980's


I am not saying the recession wasn't bad in the 1980's, however they way some posters go on you would think no one had a job and everyone was living on the edge of starvation.

El_Dangeroso

The Spider wrote: »

(One slight note it's 1970's not 1970th, sorry driving me nuts.)

LOL me too, didn't want to say it, but *twitch* :pac: