High speed rail Cork - Dublin

draiochtanois

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Deedsie

draiochtanois wrote: »

What would it cost to build a new high speed rail network, fully elevated like in Spain from Dublin to Cork?

Belfast - Dublin - Cork would be the only way they could really do it surely? And even then it would probably not be viable?

richiek83

Deedsie wrote: »

Belfast - Dublin - Cork would be the only way they could really do it surely? And even then it would probably not be viable?

Agree Deedsie. Not likely to be viable. The eventual Electrification of the Dublin - Cork line alone will cost somewhere in the region of €300 - €400 million (2012 prices) not taken into account new rolling stock. A new high speed line with the all the new structures it would take and new stations would likely run to into several billion euros. The cost benefit of such a project would not stack up I'd reckon when other projects with proven benefit to cost ratios are shovel ready and are suspended, Dart Underground been a case in point. I think what the Dublin - Cork line should be aiming for is a two hour journey with possibly 100 to 120mph running. This should also be the case with the Dublin - Belfast line although major improvements would need to be made north of the border and approaching Dublin.

Electrification of the Dublin - Cork line will be viable and will likely be done in conjunction with replacing the present rolling stock of the line when it reaches its end of life (between 2030 - 2040 ).

draiochtanois

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murphaph

Several billions I suspect. Another "nice" by product of free for all planning is that there will always be plenty of properties along the preferred route of any new infrastructure like this, making it extra expensive.

cgcsb

A new high speed line like the Madrid-Barcelona, wouldn't be a practical transport solution within Ireland because the distances between stops are going to be much shorter (compared to Spain's vast and sparsely populated interior) meaning that the top speed of the trains may never be reached. In short there's no point designing a line and buying trains for 350km/hr running when you're never going to get above 250km/hr anyway due to stopping pattern. Also in Ireland there'd be much shorter end to end intercity journeys, meaning that the time savings between 250km/hr and 350km/hr would be impractically small in economic terms, over a mere 250km distance.

With this in mind there is of course massive scope for retrofitting the existing Belfast and Cork lines for high speed(up to 250km/h) running. The first step is electrification (due to happen in the 2020's as far as I'm aware). Ongoing replacement of track and re-aligning where required will be another step.

Building a brand new high speed line isn't all that practical so you won't get an accurate cost estimate. My best guess: northwards of €10bn for Cork-Dub

draiochtanois

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Victor

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Fully segregated makes sense. Fully elevated does not. I would do it Cork-Limerick-Dublin-Belfast. Extra connectivity, with only modest extra cost.

I would estimate €3-5 billion. However, a lot of it wouldn't make sense. For an hourly service you would only need a total of about 4 trains sets (including a spare), meaning that trains would rarely meet each other en route, meaning a lot of it could be done single track ...

Another issue, is that at such speeds, legacy / conventional trains probably wouldn't be able to use it (although at one train per hour, who knows?), harming the cost-benefit ratio substantially. This is the beauty of the TGV network and the proposed High Speed 2 in Britain - trains can use the high speed section for a chunk of the journey and then more on to the legacy network near their destination, so relatively small cities can have high-speed services. Admittedly, in this respect, Britain 'benefits' from being much longer than it is wide.

I concur with other posters, a lower high speed, using substantial amounts of the legacy network would be much more desirable. Potentially, 90% or more of Cork-Dublin could be changed to 160km/h speeds (journey time 1.5 hours). Reconstruction or diversion would be needed on other sections, like Cork-Mallow, certain bridges and The Curragh. Current thoughts are ~160km/h speeds, electrification and 4 tracks from Dublin to either Newbridge or Kildare and three tracks from Kildare to Cherryville Junction, where the Waterford line branches off.

With Dublin-Belfast, 160km/h would mean a 1 hour journey time, but extra track or extra lines would be needed Drogheda-Dublin and Portadown-Belfast. A new line Balbriggan-Dublin Airport-Dublin has a certain attraction to it - extra connectivity, little disruption to existing services and a removal of the current timetabling restrictions.

Carawaystick

LGV Est phase 2 cost 2billion for 106km, ex VAT
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/lgv-est-phase-2-tendering-gets-underway.html

It takes a tgv 6 mins, not 2-3, to get to 290kmh
http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/43658-hsr-acceleration-rate/

I presume you would want to tunnel under Dublin, to serve the city centre, and this would cost another 2 billion or so.
So just over 400km track gives 8 billion. Tunnelling under Cork and Dublin, is another 2 billion, so 10billion.

It should be noted, there is no train which will get you to Cork from Dublin before 9:35, so I doubt there is much demand for early morning travel, as surely IÉ would run a train to get people to Cork for the start of the business day if there was.
First train from Dublin to Belfast gets in at 9:45
First train from Belfast to Dublin arrives at 9:04

There is no demand for hs rail in Ireland, the pop is too small and the distances are too short. If there was to be a way to recoup the 10 billion, then you'ld have the coach and train services mopping up customers priced out of a new private hs rail system.

You might as well look at building that other white elephant, a tunnel to britain.... no-one's fed that thread in a good while

Empire o de Sun

Should they make provision to preserve a future corridor?
I might not be needed now, but in 30 years maybe.

cgcsb

Having a non stop service between the cities isn't best practice internationally because you miss opportunities to pick up other catchments. Limerick junction for example. A retrofitted cork Dublin line with 250km/h running may deliver journey times of about 70 mins. A brand new line with 350km/h running could only hope to deliver 50 min journey times, with a substantially larger price tag.

D.L.R.

Where in Dublin would this High Speed line terminate? If it goes to Belfast, would it need two Dublin terminals? Would it serve the airport? Etc..

Sheldons Brain

Carawaystick wrote: »

LGV Est phase 2 cost 2billion for 106km, ex VAT
It should be noted, there is no train which will get you to Cork from Dublin before 9:35, so I doubt there is much demand for early morning travel, as surely IÉ would run a train to get people to Cork for the start of the business day if there was.
First train from Dublin to Belfast gets in at 9:45
First train from Belfast to Dublin arrives at 9:04

Are we really sure that IÉ are covering the demand? I certainly know people who would have used such a service. The lack of earlier trains Dublin-Belfast might well have something to do with congestion on the route from local commuter trains.

Carawaystick

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Are we really sure that IÉ are covering the demand? I certainly know people who would have used such a service. The lack of earlier trains Dublin-Belfast might well have something to do with congestion on the route from local commuter trains.

If there was a trainful of people from the 6 counties who wanted to get to Dublin early, then I'd say IÉ would bump a train from Dundalk or Drogheda.
But I doubt there's the demand.

DoYouEvenLift

Would probably be more likely to see the introduction of teleportation. Ireland's too small for there to be a demand high enough to make that worthwhile. We'd all like it though.

I think a better investment would be a high speed train linking to England like the one from France. It'd have to link up to London though because that'd be the most visited spot for tourists and once they're there they'd be more likely to decide to hop on a train to also visit Ireland. With this we'd have a physical link to the rest of Europe and inter-railers. It'd probably be cool to visit Ireland through that since it'd basically be seen as the last stop on the map for high speed trains. But even this is beaten by flying I'd say?

cgcsb

The notion that demand isn't there is a bit silly really, the dublin-cork railway line has only captured circa 40% of the demand for overall trips between Cork and Dublin, there is still another 60% taken by the roads, plenty of scope for grabbing more of the market share.

Additionally, the Belfast-Dublin railway only grabs about 25% of journeys between the cities, again plenty of scope for grabbing more of the market. That market can be grabbed by a radical improvement of journey times. A 2 hour journey to cork for €15 with free wifi would do some damage to the private car share of the market.

DoYouEvenLift

cgcsb wrote: »

The notion that demand isn't there is a bit silly really, the dublin-cork railway line has only captured circa 40% of the demand for overall trips between Cork and Dublin, there is still another 60% taken by the roads, plenty of scope for grabbing more of the market share.

Additionally, the Belfast-Dublin railway only grabs about 25% of journeys between the cities, again plenty of scope for grabbing more of the market. That market can be grabbed by a radical improvement of journey times. A 2 hour journey to cork for €15 with free wifi would do some damage to the private car share of the market.

If that's towards my post then pay attention to my wording. The demand is of course there. There would be demand for a line like this from any county directly to Dublin. The only thing that matters is if the demand would be high enough that the line would be used enough/receive enough customers to pay for the billions it would cost to construct.

draiochtanois

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Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

The notion that demand isn't there is a bit silly really, the dublin-cork railway line has only captured circa 40% of the demand for overall trips between Cork and Dublin, there is still another 60% taken by the roads, plenty of scope for grabbing more of the market share.

Additionally, the Belfast-Dublin railway only grabs about 25% of journeys between the cities, again plenty of scope for grabbing more of the market. That market can be grabbed by a radical improvement of journey times. A 2 hour journey to cork for €15 with free wifi would do some damage to the private car share of the market.

SO for your fifteen euros you'ld only need 700 million trips to cover the capital costs....
If each of the 200 thousand residents of cork city travelled 3500 times that would cover it


Or lets say there was 350 passengers per train, ten trains each way per day, it would only take the bare hundred thousand days, or three centuries in rounder units....


As for building a station at Dublin airport, why that's a great idea, a journey of an hour to Cork and another hour to Dublin city.....

draiochtanois

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cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

SO for your fifteen euros you'ld only need 700 million trips to cover the capital costs....
If each of the 200 thousand residents of cork city travelled 3500 times that would cover it


Or lets say there was 350 passengers per train, ten trains each way per day, it would only take the bare hundred thousand days, or three centuries in rounder units....

Two points:

I never suggested building a €10bn high speed line from scratch. Quite the opposite I'd advocate a gradual retrofit of the existing line to allow for 250k-280k running to ensure a journey time of circa 1hour

The cost of building/upgrading road/rail infrastructure need not be recouped by ticket sales, it is an investment in a sustainable future, not a private investment requiring a quick dividend.

Carawaystick wrote: »

As for building a station at Dublin airport, why that's a great idea, a journey of an hour to Cork and another hour to Dublin city.....

Not sure what you mean here

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

The cost of building/upgrading road/rail infrastructure need not be recouped by ticket sales, it is an investment in a sustainable future, not a private investment requiring a quick dividend

Did you not get the memo?

Rail has to pay for its self. That's the old mantra which is making a comeback.

LeinsterDub

Rail in Ireland is like the League of Ireland in soccer . If we only improved the quality of the soccer more people would come , they did and no one came . if we only improved the stadiums people would come , they did and no one came.

The fact is improving journey times isn't going to help. even if they can do Cork to Dublin in 70 minutes unless you live at the train station it's going to be about 2 hours journey and then you end up in Dublin or Cork with no car and the hinterland is inaccessible by public transport and it's cost about the same as driving.

kooga

draiochtanois wrote: »

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my other half commutes weekly from cork to belfast by train and the best commute time is just under 6 hours.

monument

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Rail in Ireland is like the League of Ireland in soccer . If we only improved the quality of the soccer more people would come , they did and no one came . if we only improved the stadiums people would come , they did and no one came.

There's many problems with your analogy.

The real stadiums of rail are the tracks and trains combined. The newer trains on the Cork-Dublin route were not much of improvements -- in ride qualty they were reported to be poorer and they had little in the way of other improvements (no power plugs, no speed improvements).

The track upgrades have in a lot of cases just about fulfilled safety requirements and we know there have been safety issues with bridges and also issues with laying new tracks on unsuitable ground.

The Dart Underground works -- which would ease a commuter/intercity bottleneck and massively improve intercity connectivity with the city centre and the Greater Dublin Area -- is still on hold.

The above improvements and plans were after years of underinvestment where -- if passengers were lucky-- safety was about the only think which was looked after. In the meanwhile the road network was improved on and then in the boom the motorway network was given massive investment -- and improvements are ongoing.

So when it comes to rail I'm not sure how you can claim that "build it and they will come" idea has failed.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The fact is improving journey times isn't going to help. even if they can do Cork to Dublin in 70 minutes unless you live at the train station it's going to be about 2 hours journey and then you end up in Dublin or Cork with no car and the hinterland is inaccessible by public transport and it's cost about the same as driving.

Improving rail speeds will make the total trip time shorter and thus make rail more attractive to more people and likely extend the catchment areas of stations.

I'm not sure what you think the hinterland is but most people traveling by rail from city to city across the world are not traveling to the hinterland. But it's also the case that nobody is saying that rail suits or is the best option for every trip -- this is normal across the world.

cgcsb

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Rail in Ireland is like the League of Ireland in soccer . If we only improved the quality of the soccer more people would come , they did and no one came . if we only improved the stadiums people would come , they did and no one came.

The fact is improving journey times isn't going to help. even if they can do Cork to Dublin in 70 minutes unless you live at the train station it's going to be about 2 hours journey and then you end up in Dublin or Cork with no car and the hinterland is inaccessible by public transport and it's cost about the same as driving.

A wholly incorrect comparison. Journey times between the cities by rail have remained static since about the 1970s because there has been no meaningful investment in improving them.

Also it has been shown that where the journey by rail is compatitive with road (i.e. Cork-Dublin) that a greater % of the journey between those cities is captured by rail. More than 40% of people travelling between Dublin and Cork choose rail compared to circa 25% for Galway and Belfast journeys, which are uncompetitive in journey time.

Re: onward connections Cork's suburbs are hardly 'inaccessible' by public transport. Also you are incorrect on cost. Dublin-Cork €15 each way plus cork city bus journey €1.90 each way. That's about €33.80 round trip, which is impossible by car regardless of how efficient your engine is.

Idbatterim

the fact that you have to get to Heuston station to take the Cork train, instead of city centre, immediately makes it less attractive than bus, unless you happen to live closer to Heuston station...

MN and DU are far bigger priorities...

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

the fact that you have to get to Heuston station to take the Cork train, instead of city centre, immediately makes it less attractive than bus, unless you happen to live closer to Heuston station...

MN and DU are far bigger priorities...

The bus takes three hours, and is subject to traffic at Both ends of the journey where as the train takes 2:30 and is by all accounts a more comfortable journey

Idbatterim

The bus takes three hours, and is subject to traffic at Both ends of the journey where as the train takes 2:30 and is by all accounts a more comfortable journey

I agree that train would be more comfortable, but I live in Dundrum and personally wouldnt take the train to cork as Id have to get into town and then get up to Heuston, too much messing around IMO...

Sheldons Brain

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree that train would be more comfortable, but I live in Dundrum and personally wouldnt take the train to cork as Id have to get into town and then get up to Heuston, too much messing around IMO...

That's the problem, if you set out driving from Dundrum you'd be in Portlaoise before you'd be in a train at Heuston.

bk

High speed train to Cork, Haha!!!

Ireland is barely suited to having normal standard intercity rail, never mind high speed. Ireland pretty much couldn't be less suited to intercity rail:

- Really only one large city
- Small country, relatively short distances between cities
- Excellent motorway network

The reality is the population of Cork is barely big enough to justify intercity rail, never mind high speed rail.

At the moment the journey times are:
- Car 2h 20mins
- Train 2h 30mins
- Bus 3hours

Though in my experience the bus and train are about the same when you take into account the time it takes to get to and from Hueston. Car is actually significantly faster as it would be door to door.

If you want to add a quicker option to that, then it would be far cheaper for the government to spend a fraction of the €10 billion it would cost to build hs rail and instead subsidise a Cork to Dublin airplane route, along with a priority security lines at the airport. You would then have a 45 minute journey time option at a fraction of the cost.

With the remaining €9.5 Billion you could then build actually useful projects like Metro North and Dart Underground and probably even have some left over for an extra Luas line in Dublin and maybe a BRT or two down in Cork. All money far better spent.

The fact that their is no longer a airline route between Cork and Dublin, clearly shows that their is little appetite for a high speed rail line. Pure fantasy stuff, there is simply no economic justification for it.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

The bus takes three hours, and is subject to traffic at Both ends of the journey where as the train takes 2:30 and is by all accounts a more comfortable journey

But doesn't serve the city centres and there's your half an hour time saving eaten up.

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

Re: onward connections Cork's suburbs are hardly 'inaccessible' by public transport. Also you are incorrect on cost. Dublin-Cork €15 each way plus cork city bus journey €1.90 each way. That's about €33.80 round trip, which is impossible by car regardless of how efficient your engine is.

My car holds 5 at (basically) no extra cost 33.80 * 5 is 169 euro . At that's the cheapest fair! When I said hinterland I should of said more difficult instead of inaccessible

monument

LeinsterDub wrote: »

My car holds 5 at (basically) no extra cost 33.80 * 5 is 169 euro . At that's the cheapest fair! When I said hinterland I should of said more difficult as instead of inaccessible

Still not sure what your point is -- nobody, not a single poster is saying rail is better for every trip all the time.

Idbatterim

The fact that their is no longer a airline route between Cork and Dublin, clearly shows that their is little appetite for a high speed rail line. Pure fantasy stuff, there is simply no economic justification for it.

I think both airports are trying to get an operator to get this route going again, a pity that people from cork have to connect via london etc if they could have connected via Dublin and keeping the money here...

LeinsterDub

monument wrote: »

Still not sure what your point is -- nobody, not a single poster is saying rail is better for every trip all the time.

My points is the road is better for most trips , most of the time in Ireland .At least in my personal experience.

monument

LeinsterDub wrote: »

My points is the road is better for most trips , most of the time in Ireland .At least in my personal experience.

But we're not talking most trips, most of the time in Ireland. We're talking about Dublin-Cork and everything that goes with Belfast-Dublin-(Limerick)-Cork service.

bk wrote: »

High speed train to Cork, Haha!!!

Ireland is barely suited to having normal standard intercity rail, never mind high speed. Ireland pretty much couldn't be less suited to intercity rail:

- Really only one large city
- Small country, relatively short distances between cities
- Excellent motorway network

The reality is the population of Cork is barely big enough to justify intercity rail, never mind high speed rail.

At the moment the journey times are:
- Car 2h 20mins
- Train 2h 30mins
- Bus 3hours

Though in my experience the bus and train are about the same when you take into account the time it takes to get to and from Hueston. Car is actually significantly faster as it would be door to door.

If you want to add a quicker option to that, then it would be far cheaper for the government to spend a fraction of the €10 billion it would cost to build hs rail and instead subsidise a Cork to Dublin airplane route, along with a priority security lines at the airport. You would then have a 45 minute journey time option at a fraction of the cost.

With the remaining €9.5 Billion you could then build actually useful projects like Metro North and Dart Underground and probably even have some left over for an extra Luas line in Dublin and maybe a BRT or two down in Cork. All money far better spent.

The fact that their is no longer a airline route between Cork and Dublin, clearly shows that their is little appetite for a high speed rail line. Pure fantasy stuff, there is simply no economic justification for it.

1. The thread has gone beyond talking about the OP's suggestion.

2. The island should be looked at, not just Cork and Dublin.

3. I like the suggestion from Victor of not only including Belfast-Dublin-Cork but putting Limerick in there too.

4. Not sure why people can see road projects as a list of priorities but public transport is treated as if they all have to be built within the same few years.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

High speed train to Cork, Haha!!!

Ireland is barely suited to having normal standard intercity rail, never mind high speed. Ireland pretty much couldn't be less suited to intercity rail:

- Really only one large city
- Small country, relatively short distances between cities
- Excellent motorway network

The reality is the population of Cork is barely big enough to justify intercity rail, never mind high speed rail.

Uninformed drivel.

Austria, Denmark, Sweden etc. all serve similar population corridores with electrified railways in excess of 200km/hr running speeds. A City like Cork if locateed in on mainland Europe would have a comprehensive electrified commuter rail network.

bk wrote: »

At the moment the journey times are:
- Car 2h 20mins
- Train 2h 30mins
- Bus 3hours

The journey time between Dublin and Cork cannot be achieved within the law under 2h40mins, and that's 120km/h the whole way, with an express toll tag and you'd really want to be flooring it.

bk wrote: »

Though in my experience the bus and train are about the same when you take into account the time it takes to get to and from Hueston.

It takes 10 mins to get to Abbey St from Heuston.

bk wrote: »

If you want to add a quicker option to that, then it would be far cheaper for the government to spend a fraction of the €10 billion it would cost to build hs rail and instead subsidise a Cork to Dublin airplane route, along with a priority security lines at the airport. You would then have a 45 minute journey time option at a fraction of the cost.

Ridiculous, the subsidy to Dublin-Cork flights was stopped, it is an environmentally unsustainable transport solution. The Dublin-Cork line could be electrified and electric rolling stock bought when it comes time to renew the stock for only a billion extra. The 10bn figure would be more cuited to starting from scratch.

bk wrote: »

The fact that their is no longer a airline route between Cork and Dublin, clearly shows that their is little appetite for a high speed rail line. Pure fantasy stuff, there is simply no economic justification for it.

The air route was cancelled due to cancelled subsidy and by virtue of the fact that rail was faster.

cgcsb

LeinsterDub wrote: »

My car holds 5 at (basically) no extra cost 33.80 * 5 is 169 euro . At that's the cheapest fair! When I said hinterland I should of said more difficult instead of inaccessible

you can buy family tickets and group tickets at a discount.

bk

monument wrote: »

But we're not talking most trips, most of the time in Ireland. We're talking about Dublin-Cork and everything that goes with Belfast-Dublin-(Limerick)-Cork service.

1. The thread has gone beyond talking about the OP's suggestion.

2. The island should be looked at, not just Cork and Dublin.

4. I like the suggestion from Victor of not only including Belfast-Dublin-Cork but putting Limerick in there too.

Even if you look at Cork - Dublin - Belfast and chuck in Limerick, it still doesn't make it any more financially viable.

Very few people go Cork to Belfast. The vast majority of journeys at Cork/Limerick/Belfast to/from Dublin. By adding Limerick/Belfast into the mix, all your are doing is increasing the km's and thus the cost of such a project. If Cork to Dublin isn't economically viable then Limerick/Belfast would be even less viable and adding them in just makes such a project even less viable and less likely to happen.

monument wrote: »

3. Not sure why people can see road projects as a list of priorities but public transport is treated as if they all have to be built within the same few years.

It isn't an anti-public transport sentiment, as you know I'm pro public transport (and cycling/walking) as anyone. However I'm also a realist and an engineer and I don't for a moment believe that every public transport project is a good idea or should be done. And I certainly don't believe that spending billions on hs intercity would be a good idea or makes any sense at all.

For €10 billion it would cost, you could do Metro North, Dart Underground, Luas to Lucan, expand Dublin Bikes to the rest of Dublin, build Dutch style bike lanes throughout Dublin and probably have enough left over for a couple hundred new intercity buses to serve various parts of the country.

All vastly more beneficial to public transport and the environment.

In my opinion the best thing to ever happen to intercity travel in Ireland is the introduction of frequent, direct non stop, cheap private bus services from the likes of Aircoach, Dublin Coach, Citylink, etc.

All of which cost the tax payer nothing to introduce. I believe people are far more likely to take public transport when it costs €20, then €80 for a normal train or €160 for a HS train. And yes a hs train would cost that, how else do people think you would fund a €10 billion project! Just look at hs ticket prices across Europe.

cgcsb wrote: »

Uninformed drivel.

I'll ignore the obvious trolling!

cgcsb wrote: »

Austria, Denmark, Sweden etc. all serve similar population corridores with electrified railways in excess of 200km/hr running speeds. A City like Cork if locateed in on mainland Europe would have a comprehensive electrified commuter rail network.

All are very mountainous and snowy countries where it is hard to build roads and they tend to be dangerous (snow) even when you do. Rail makes a lot of sense in these countries. Specially when you combine it with their almost free hydro electricity. The very cheap operating costs balanced out the high capital costs and made it less necessary for them to upgrade their roads.

Here our electricity is mostly from burning coal and gas and is one of the most expensive electricity rates in Europe. So it makes more sense for us to focus on roads, since the capital costs are relatively low and towns needed to be bypassed anyway.

cgcsb wrote: »

The journey time between Dublin and Cork cannot be achieved within the law under 2h40mins, and that's 120km/h the whole way, with an express toll tag and you'd really want to be flooring it.

And that's the difference between rail fans and normal people. Normal people don't care about the theory, what they can actually do is what they care about.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I can assure you that this is definitely possible. Also no one lives in a train station, the door to door speed of a car is at least 1 hour faster.

cgcsb wrote: »

It takes 10 mins to get to Abbey St from Heuston.

Then add time waiting for the Luas and the walk to the train platform and picking up your ticket. As a Corkonian living in Dublin who has been taken the train to Cork at least once a month for the past 10 years, I can assure you it all takes about an extra 30 minutes, plus the extra cost.

For the past two years I've switched to Aircoach and I've found it to be consistently faster door to door and much cheaper.

cgcsb wrote: »

Ridiculous, the subsidy to Dublin-Cork flights was stopped, it is an environmentally unsustainable transport solution.

The air route was cancelled due to cancelled subsidy and by virtue of the fact that rail was faster.

Actually I don't believe Ryanair ever received a subsidy for the route. Michael O'Leary himself said the reason they stopped the route was because of dropping passenger numbers due to the new motorways and people driving instead.

Of course I don't believe that is the whole story, more that Ryanair put totally uneconomical 737's multiple times of the day on the route to kill off Aerlingus/Aerarran. Once they killed off the competition they pulled out.

Smaller AerArann style aircraft would be much more suited to the route and would be economical but I believe they are afraid to restart the route in case Ryanair would restart their route again and kill them off again!

And how was rail faster?!! The flight is about 45 minutes!

If your argument is based on the environment, then we should close intercity rail and replace it all with bus services instead as intercity buses are actually more fuel efficient and produce less co2 per passenger then diesel trains.

Also I believe that there are much better and more environmentally (and economically) positive ways to spend €1 billion, never mind €10 billion.

Idbatterim

Of course I don't believe that is the whole story, more that Ryanair put totally uneconomical 737's multiple times of the day on the route to kill off Aerlingus/Aerarran. Once they killed off the competition they pulled out.

Why would FR care about killing AerLingus off it they dont see the route as worthwhile? could it become so again with the new more fuel efficient planes ryanair are ordering? I dont see it being worthwhile flying to dublin, the way things are currently, unless you need to specifically get to the airport...

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

you can buy family tickets and group tickets at a discount.

Groups of 10 + or 2 adults and 4 kids , none of which apply to me

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

All are very mountainous and snowy countries where it is hard to build roads and they tend to be dangerous (snow) even when you do. Rail makes a lot of sense in these countries.

Again, ill informed. each of those countries have comprehensive motorway networks and good quality standard roads.

bk wrote: »

And that's the difference between rail fans and normal people. Normal people don't care about the theory, what they can actually do is what they care about.

i.e. break the law and drive at 140km/hr

bk wrote: »

Actually I don't believe Ryanair ever received a subsidy for the route.

They did indeed.

bk wrote: »

And how was rail faster?!! The flight is about 45 minutes!

central areas to airports + check in time.

bk wrote: »

If your argument is based on the environment, then we should close intercity rail and replace it all with bus services instead as intercity buses are actually more fuel efficient and produce less co2 per passenger then diesel trains.

Do you have a source for that claim? I doubt it's accurate. Besides the Dublin-Cork line is to be electrified regardless if speeds in excess of 200km/hr are achieved or not.

Aard

For the train service to Cork to be better frequented, the stations at either end need to act more hub-like. If people can't get to the stations easily by public transport, then they're more likely to simply stay in the car for the whole journey. Quite understandable.

Heuston is 2.5km from Dublin 2, the business centre of Ireland. It has decent bus/Luas services to the city centre business and retail core. But it has terrible services to most of the more residential parts of the city. People are unlikely to want to take two busses to the train station, yet many direct bus routes to Heuston would be unviable. I've mentioned before about extending the 17 or 46a to Heuston. These might work, but would either reduce frequencies or necessitate more busses on the routes.

So in order to make such services (and more) viable -- there needs to be a reason for them to go to Heuston other than to meet the train. This means making Heuston a destination. There are plans for a certain amount of redevelopment in the area in the form of offices. Completing these would ensure the demand for both long distance train and local bus services. Expanding the functions of the city centre westward instead of the prevailing pattern of eastwards (Docklands) would also be beneficial for the city for many reasons irrelevant to this particular thread.

This development model of combining land use and transport planning has been absent from Irish plans so far. There is a fantastic example of this in Holland -- the Stedenbaan project in South Holland. An improved (not necessarily high speed) rail service between Cork and Dublin would benefit enormously from the ideas of that Dutch project.

cgcsb

Aard wrote: »

For the train service to Cork to be better frequented, the stations at either end need to act more hub-like. If people can't get to the stations easily by public transport, then they're more likely to simply stay in the car for the whole journey. Quite understandable.

Heuston is 2.5km from Dublin 2, the business centre of Ireland. It has decent bus/Luas services to the city centre business and retail core. But it has terrible services to most of the more residential parts of the city. People are unlikely to want to take two busses to the train station, yet many direct bus routes to Heuston would be unviable. I've mentioned before about extending the 17 or 46a to Heuston. These might work, but would either reduce frequencies or necessitate more busses on the routes.

So in order to make such services (and more) viable -- there needs to be a reason for them to go to Heuston other than to meet the train. This means making Heuston a destination. There are plans for a certain amount of redevelopment in the area in the form of offices. Completing these would ensure the demand for both long distance train and local bus services. Expanding the functions of the city centre westward instead of the prevailing pattern of eastwards (Docklands) would also be beneficial for the city for many reasons irrelevant to this particular thread.

This development model of combining land use and transport planning has been absent from Irish plans so far. There is a fantastic example of this in Holland -- the Stedenbaan project in South Holland. An improved (not necessarily high speed) rail service between Cork and Dublin would benefit enormously from the ideas of that Dutch project.

I would say that once DARTu and Dublin-Cork electrification is complete, many(perhaps all) Cork services will serve Stephen's Green Station. At the other end of the line a re-orientation of Kent towards the river, development of Cork docklands and a new bridge would go a long way to making Kent a more attractive location.

Aard

I wouldn't hold my breath for Kent-SSG services just yet. But were that to be realised it would be fantastic for both Dublin and Cork. The Docklands redevelopment in Cork is vitally important too. I'm unfamiliar with public transport in Cork, but iirc the train station is close to many bus routes, which works in Cork's favour.

zetalambda

bk wrote: »

High speed train to Cork, Haha!!!

Ireland is barely suited to having normal standard intercity rail, never mind high speed. Ireland pretty much couldn't be less suited to intercity rail:

- Really only one large city
- Small country, relatively short distances between cities
- Excellent motorway network

The reality is the population of Cork is barely big enough to justify intercity rail, never mind high speed rail.

At the moment the journey times are:
- Car 2h 20mins
- Train 2h 30mins
- Bus 3hours

Though in my experience the bus and train are about the same when you take into account the time it takes to get to and from Hueston. Car is actually significantly faster as it would be door to door.

If you want to add a quicker option to that, then it would be far cheaper for the government to spend a fraction of the €10 billion it would cost to build hs rail and instead subsidise a Cork to Dublin airplane route, along with a priority security lines at the airport. You would then have a 45 minute journey time option at a fraction of the cost.

With the remaining €9.5 Billion you could then build actually useful projects like Metro North and Dart Underground and probably even have some left over for an extra Luas line in Dublin and maybe a BRT or two down in Cork. All money far better spent.

The fact that their is no longer a airline route between Cork and Dublin, clearly shows that their is little appetite for a high speed rail line. Pure fantasy stuff, there is simply no economic justification for it.

I'd agree with you pretty much on all points except that Dublin is a big city. If you think it is, you need to get out of the country a bit more. Or do you mean in an Irish context?

I think we can expect a high speed rail link between Dublin and Cork at the earliest 2060!

cgcsb

Aard wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breath for Kent-SSG services just yet. But were that to be realised it would be fantastic for both Dublin and Cork. The Docklands redevelopment in Cork is vitally important too. I'm unfamiliar with public transport in Cork, but iirc the train station is close to many bus routes, which works in Cork's favour.

it is but it's not as dependable as in Dublin where you're pretty much guaranteed a bus or a tram within 2 minutes and you have the choice of multiple destinations. On a Sunday waiting for a bus in Cork City can be an utter waste of time, with less than half an hour frequency on some routes. IÉ plan to operate intercity services through DARTu and onto Dublin Airport/Belfast by 2030, so we do have quite a wait, if indeed, that deadline is delivered at all.

I would question the capacity of Stephen's Green station with regard to hosting intercity services. The space required might cause a bit of a squeeze

bk

Aard wrote: »

I'm unfamiliar with public transport in Cork, but iirc the train station is close to many bus routes, which works in Cork's favour.

It is closer to the city then Hueston is and some routes pass it, but certainly not the majority of routes. It is about a 12 minute walk to the bus station and Patrick St.

On the other hand, while further, Heuston maybe easier to get to as 12 minutes on the Luas is better then a 12 minute walk with heavy bags!

There is a bus service from the station but it is relatively infrequent and as their is no integrated ticketing, you would have to get two buses which isn't worth it for most people for such a short distance, who just end up walking.

Ideally they should really run a free shuttle between the train station and the bus station/Patrick St.

But we just don't do integrated transport in Ireland.

zetalambda wrote: »

I'd agree with you pretty much on all points except that Dublin is a big city. If you think it is, you need to get out of the country a bit more. Or do you mean in an Irish context?

Yes, in an Irish context. I've lots of Brazillian friends, they find 5 million to be a small city!

I suppose I meant it in more of the terms that most economists say that it is only economically worth running intercity rail between two cities when each city has 1 million+ population. We have only one such city. Thus the reason (amongst others) that intercity rail struggles so badly here.

Idbatterim

with the luas at stephens green, could they put a glass box in effect over it, so that you could stay under constant cover when changing between it and MN or DU?

Also why cant you get a tram on the green line to tallaght direct? say every second tram would go to broadstone? Having to change is PITA! particularly if weather is bad...

Likewise with metro north, would it not have made sense to made the current green line, the same guage? When MN is eventually built, you cant just get on Balally, Dundrum or wherever and go direct to the airport, you have to get off and get the metro... Stuff like this with me would make a big difference, if I could get there directly, I would absolutely take public transport, but when it involves messing around, potential bad weather and airport parking is dirt cheap, i.e. under E3 a day with quickpark for long term, I dont know if I would bother...

loyatemu

Idbatterim wrote: »

Also why cant you get a tram on the green line to tallaght direct? say every second tram would go to broadstone? Having to change is PITA! particularly if weather is bad...

then the people going to Broadstone would have to change, or wait around in the bad weather...

Why not have 20% of trams going to Tallaght, 20% to Saggart, 20% to Broadstone, 20% to Connolly and 20% to the Point? Because it would be a confusing mess that suited nobody.