Staff Reps on Board of Management

ethical

As is the normal state of affairs there are two teacher reps on the Board of Management of schools across the country and their remit is to represent the teachers and give feed back of the 'agreed report ' to the staff they represent as soon as possible after the BOM Meeting takes place.Word reaches me, that is somewhat concerning, from a school that chose two staff members,a male and a female who were to represent the staff.Unfortunately the agreed report was only fed back to the select few and one of the Reps 'feathered their own nest' by siding with Management and did not represent the needs of the staff at all. The old board was extremely corrupt,it was an open and well known fact that this was the way they operated.
The really sad thing about it is when there was a recent 'election' for two new reps.There was very little interest from the staff and lo and behold the same two were put forward again,one won fair enough through an election process while the other was unopposed(the one that aided corruption was elected unopposed as no one could be bothered standing).The staff are now worried that the same 'keep them in the dark and feed them sh1t will manifest itself once again and instead of a new Board the same old shenanigans will be going on with the staff hung out to dry.Would it be worthwhile contacting the Union and telling them the story.The Union were told previously that there was corruption on the Board but were useless in doing anything about it!!If they had acted then the present situation would not have arisen.

byhookorbycrook

ethical wrote: »

The really sad thing about it is when there was a recent 'election' for two new reps.There was very little interest from the staff and lo and behold the same two were put forward again,one won fair enough through an election process while the other was unopposed(the one that aided corruption was elected unopposed as no one could be bothered standing).The staff are now worried that the same 'keep them in the dark and feed them sh1t will manifest itself once again and instead of a new Board the same old shenanigans will be going on with the staff hung out to dry.Would it be worthwhile contacting the Union and telling them the story.The Union were told previously that there was corruption on the Board but were useless in doing anything about it!!If they had acted then the present situation would not have arisen.

You get the reps you vote for , other staff members should have been proactive. Can't see how a union would get involved with BOM election. If your own staff won't get off their rears, why should you expect a union to??

Jamfa

ethical wrote: »

As is the normal state of affairs there are two teacher reps on the Board of Management of schools across the country and their remit is to represent the teachers and give feed back of the 'agreed report ' to the staff they represent as soon as possible after the BOM Meeting takes place.Word reaches me, that is somewhat concerning, from a school that chose two staff members,a male and a female who were to represent the staff.Unfortunately the agreed report was only fed back to the select few and one of the Reps 'feathered their own nest' by siding with Management and did not represent the needs of the staff at all. The old board was extremely corrupt,it was an open and well known fact that this was the way they operated.
The really sad thing about it is when there was a recent 'election' for two new reps.There was very little interest from the staff and lo and behold the same two were put forward again,one won fair enough through an election process while the other was unopposed(the one that aided corruption was elected unopposed as no one could be bothered standing).The staff are now worried that the same 'keep them in the dark and feed them sh1t will manifest itself once again and instead of a new Board the same old shenanigans will be going on with the staff hung out to dry.Would it be worthwhile contacting the Union and telling them the story.The Union were told previously that there was corruption on the Board but were useless in doing anything about it!!If they had acted then the present situation would not have arisen.

The teachers are elected to the BOM but they are not teacher reps on the BOM. You should read the documents on the make up & legal duties of a board.

seavill

If the staff actually cared they would not have let the same 2 "courrupt" people back on. Typical Ireland bitch and moan about something but don't do anything about it whatever you do.

If these people were elected opposed or unopposed you can't come back complaining. If people really cared and really felt that strongly about it there would have been some plan in place before the meeting to get these people out. Clearly they don't really care they just want to moan

evolving_doors

seavill wrote: »

If the staff actually cared they would not have let the same 2 "courrupt" people back on. Typical Ireland bitch and moan about something but don't do anything about it whatever you do.

If these people were elected opposed or unopposed you can't come back complaining. If people really cared and really felt that strongly about it there would have been some plan in place before the meeting to get these people out. Clearly they don't really care they just want to moan

Welllll i suppose it is a bit of a moan, but then again lets just follow it through first and keep to the substantive concerns.

1. Feedback from the meeting just given to select few..

If you elect them then I would assume you have a right to question them on issues discussed (although there is probably some amount of confidentiality allowed). If they discuss it with just 'a select few' then the confidentiality clause is in question (unless of course the 'select few' had a vested interest in what was being discussed).

2. Did not represent the needs of the staff.

Did staff make these reps know what their specific needs were. i.e. was it agreed by all/majority at some meeting what the teaching staff's position was?

Also as regards Jamfa's point, could someone clarify the make up & legal duties of a board. Are there universal guidelines adhered to or is it unique to each school. In the case of the latter OP, have you any access to this documentation? I would imagine that once people 'vote' someone in then it gives that person the right to use their own judgement (whether it's right or wrong!).

I suppose you have to be careful about specifics OP but we could discuss (some moaning allowed) generally around these points ...maybe!

seavill

The reps can only give an agreed report back to staff. The agreed report is agreed by the bom

ethical

Have no problem at all with the 'agreed report' as there is invariably stuff discussed that is confidential but not giving the 'agreed report' to the full staff is absurd.Why should there be cronyism and cliques,you ,as a staff rep are there to represent all the staff not just to represent the 'chosen few' or 'feather your own nest' if the opportunity presents itself!

seavill

If the situation is that bad why did staff not try to get rid of them surely if that serious someone would step up?

evolving_doors

ethical wrote: »

Have no problem at all with the 'agreed report' as there is invariably stuff discussed that is confidential but not giving the 'agreed report' to the full staff is absurd.Why should there be cronyism and cliques,you ,as a staff rep are there to represent all the staff not just to represent the 'chosen few' or 'feather your own nest' if the opportunity presents itself!

Ask for the agreed report!although I could probably guess that by doing that you could be making enemies with 'people in position of influence'.

The most recent report is usually pinned on the notice board in our staffroom... im not too sure ,but is that a requirement in most schools?

TheDriver

ethical wrote: »

and one of the Reps 'feathered their own nest' by siding with Management and did not represent the needs of the staff at all. .

this is something I find particularly interesting. There should be no "them and us" unless its a rare issue but that should be sorted at a staff meeting prior to BOM. I think staff reps represent the staff on staff issues and are also obliged to do the best for the school e.g. job applications etc. Regarding agreed reports, of course it should be made available. However if ye re elected them, them unfortunately I don't think you have much cause to give out......

Peter Flynt

Jamfa wrote: »

The teachers are elected to the BOM but they are not teacher reps on the BOM. You should read the documents on the make up & legal duties of a board.

They are teacher reps as the teachers (and no one else) elect them.

As an aside I don't ever remember a teacher rep on the BoM ever speaking about activities on the Board in all my years teaching.

Most do it to further their own careers.

newholland

Peter Flynt wrote: »

They are teacher reps as the teachers (and no one else) elect them.

As an aside I don't ever remember a teacher rep on the BoM ever speaking about activities on the Board in all my years teaching.

Most do it to further their own careers.

Once elected teachers are members of the board they are not staff reps.

Peter Flynt

newholland wrote: »

Once elected teachers are members of the board they are not staff reps.

If I have an issue to bring the BoM I contact my staff reps.

If they are not staff reps (which I can understand that view) then why are they asked to report on the schools activities.

The Parents have their reps

I'm not stating they are reps in the union sense of the word (not that they are much use either) but they are reps nonetheless.

Jamfa

Peter Flynt wrote: »

If I have an issue to bring the BoM I contact my staff reps.

If they are not staff reps (which I can understand that view) then why are they asked to report on the schools activities.

The Parents have their reps

I'm not stating they are reps in the union sense of the word (not that they are much use either) but they are reps nonetheless.

I've been on 3 BOM's in 3 different capacities and I was never asked to report on the school activities. At the end of each meeting a single agreed report is compiled. A teacher on the BOM can present that report to teachers & a parent can present it to parents. The focus of the BOM is to manage the school on behalf of the patron. The principal is the secretary to the BOM and is accountable to the Board for that management. You should put yourself forward next time as it's quite an eye opener to how a school is managed.

icebergiceberg

Jamfa wrote: »

I've been on 3 BOM's in 3 different capacities and I was never asked to report on the school activities. At the end of each meeting a single agreed report is compiled. A teacher on the BOM can present that report to teachers & a parent can present it to parents. The focus of the BOM is to manage the school on behalf of the patron. The principal is the secretary to the BOM and is accountable to the Board for that management. You should put yourself forward next time as it's quite an eye opener to how a school is managed.

From your experience:

If a teacher asked you to bring an issue up at the next BOM meeting would you suggest to the teacher to refer to the principal first and maybe that issue could be resolved without a need for it to go further?

In other words, what exactly is the procedure if a teacher wanted an issue to be discussed at a board meeting? (An issue that could perhaps be seen as slightly critical of the principal)

Did you give feedback/report on the BOM meeting at a staff meeting or a special meeting for teachers alone?
Thanks

Powerhouse

seavill wrote: »

If the staff actually cared they would not have let the same 2 "courrupt" people back on. Typical Ireland bitch and moan about something but don't do anything about it whatever you do.

If these people were elected opposed or unopposed you can't come back complaining. If people really cared and really felt that strongly about it there would have been some plan in place before the meeting to get these people out. Clearly they don't really care they just want to moan

The problem with this argument is that people who get elected to things are generally very good to court popularity - by definition. You will also get in any situation from a General Election to student elections to staff-room votes many people who will have no real opinion - and not only that but will regard themselves as quite "sound" for not having any developed or strong opinions unlike the troublemakers who do. If a strong personality has the neck - however corrupt or incompetent they might be in the eyes of some - to aggressively mobilise this often very amenable vote then "doing something about it" can be extremely difficult. Some people have the ability to see nothing wrong in anyone who does not personally cross them. One person's "corrupt" individual can be another's "gas man". From that point of view I think it's a bit unfair to overplay the "do something about it" argument.

r93kaey5p2izun

I just read the ASTI information on BOM elections and procedures.

http:// http://www.asti.ie/operation-of-schools/management-of-schools/boards-of-management/

It was a bit of an eye opener. Do things generally actually happen as described in the link? We are never notified of upcoming meetings or the agenda for meetings, in fact some have been taken to task for discussing the fact a meeting even took place - questioned as to how they knew about it in the first place and told not to talk about it. The reports from meetings are put up on the notice board all at once about once a year.

It's a good while since the last election of teacher reps but the last time the notice the current board was finishing, and the call for new nominees, was announced on the day of closure for receipt of nominations.

What usually happens in other schools? How long is term of office for a BOM?

seavill

Powerhouse wrote: »

The problem with this argument is that people who get elected to things are generally very good to court popularity - by definition. You will also get in any situation from a General Election to student elections to staff-room votes many people who will have no real opinion - and not only that but will regard themselves as quite "sound" for not having any developed or strong opinions unlike the troublemakers who do. If a strong personality has the neck - however corrupt or incompetent they might be in the eyes of some - to aggressively mobilise this often very amenable vote then "doing something about it" can be extremely difficult. Some people have the ability to see nothing wrong in anyone who does not personally cross them. One person's "corrupt" individual can be another's "gas man". From that point of view I think it's a bit unfair to overplay the "do something about it" argument.

I disagree, if you feel that strongly about something you must at least try to change it, put yourself forward, you may not get selected ahead of this "popular" person but at least you know you have done something.
Maybe other people are quietly thinking the same, and are waiting on someone different to put themselves forward for a chance to change things.
Doing nothing is a very Irish thing to do, in my opinion, you have to at least try even if you fail.

Jayda Scrawny Submarine wrote: »

I just read the ASTI information on BOM elections and procedures.

http:// http://www.asti.ie/operation-of-schools/management-of-schools/boards-of-management/

It was a bit of an eye opener. Do things generally actually happen as described in the link? We are never notified of upcoming meetings or the agenda for meetings, in fact some have been taken to task for discussing the fact a meeting even took place - questioned as to how they knew about it in the first place and told not to talk about it. The reports from meetings are put up on the notice board all at once about once a year.

It's a good while since the last election of teacher reps but the last time the notice the current board was finishing, and the call for new nominees, was announced on the day of closure for receipt of nominations.

What usually happens in other schools? How long is term of office for a BOM?

Again, what happens in reality, is down to what the staff allow to happen. I am a BOM member. I publish the agreed report on the notice board as soon as it is put together (usually within a week of each meeting). At the end of the report is the date of the next meeting, often people will not see (or not look at) this so ask me, and I will inform anyone that asks.
The agenda of each meeting is the exact same (unless there is something particular coming up that needs its own section and not under AOB). The agenda will follow the same headings as is on the previous agreed report.

I think (I should know this) its a 3 year term per Board. The boards change over in October of the 3rd year as far as I am aware. An active school union steward should be on top of elections of reps as per link you provided, as there is a bit of proper procedure to follow for the selection process.

katydid

ethical wrote: »

As is the normal state of affairs there are two teacher reps on the Board of Management of schools across the country and their remit is to represent the teachers and give feed back of the 'agreed report ' to the staff they represent as soon as possible after the BOM Meeting takes place.Word reaches me, that is somewhat concerning, from a school that chose two staff members,a male and a female who were to represent the staff.Unfortunately the agreed report was only fed back to the select few and one of the Reps 'feathered their own nest' by siding with Management and did not represent the needs of the staff at all. The old board was extremely corrupt,it was an open and well known fact that this was the way they operated.
The really sad thing about it is when there was a recent 'election' for two new reps.There was very little interest from the staff and lo and behold the same two were put forward again,one won fair enough through an election process while the other was unopposed(the one that aided corruption was elected unopposed as no one could be bothered standing).The staff are now worried that the same 'keep them in the dark and feed them sh1t will manifest itself once again and instead of a new Board the same old shenanigans will be going on with the staff hung out to dry.Would it be worthwhile contacting the Union and telling them the story.The Union were told previously that there was corruption on the Board but were useless in doing anything about it!!If they had acted then the present situation would not have arisen.

I was on the BOM as staff member a few years ago, and I and the male staff member instituted a regular reporting procedure from the BOM to the staff in the form of a short meeting. Nothing had been in place beforehand. Now it is part of the procedure. The staff should ask for a meeting like this - how about at the next staff meeting, and insist that it be put in place.
But it doesn't sound like the staff is too interested as a body...

evolving_doors

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maybe keep in mind that Icebergiceberg reanimated the thread for a specific question (post #15). But I suppose it's kind of tangled up in another older quoted post.

Mod

2011abc

People blaming staff involved for 'allowing 'this to happen a bit quick to judge. Jews 'allowed' themselves to be rounded up and killed ? Bullying by management and cronies ramapant in schools . Two kinds of teacher BOM teachers reps in our school .Lackies and those close to a breakdown after harassment by principal for not voting their way .

icebergiceberg

Gebgbegb wrote: »

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maybe keep in mind that Icebergiceberg reanimated the thread for a specific question (post #15). But I suppose it's kind of tangled up in another older quoted post.

Mod

Thank you.

Somewhat tangled. I am looking for specific answers from BOM members or former members. So, let me approach this in a different way.

Has a staff member ever asked you: 'What do I have to do to get an item discussed at a BOM meeting?'

What did you tell the staff member to do?

Thanks

42inchchest

I'm a staff nominee and we had our first meeting recently. At the start of the meeting I asked the chairman for clarification of exactly what my (and the other staff nominee) role is. He was pretty clear that we are nominees, not representatives, and the only feedback to staff is through the agreed report which is posted in the staffroom. If any staff member asks us to bring something to the board, we are to ask them to write to the secretary.

uck51js9zml2yt

42inchchest wrote: »

I'm a staff nominee and we had our first meeting last week. At the start of the meeting I asked the chairman for clarification of exactly what my (and the other staff nominee) role is. He was pretty clear that we are nominees, not representatives, and the only feedback to staff is through the agreed report which is posted in the staffroom. If any staff member asks us to bring something to the board, we are to ask them to write to the secretary.

I'm a parent nominee on my bom. There is training available to board members regarding their duties and responsibilities. There is also a BOM manual available which you should get hold of.

2011abc

Yes it's a very common misconception that teachers reps lobby for teachers on BOM .They are just ELECTED by teachers but not FOR them .

byhookorbycrook

42inchchest wrote: »

I'm a staff nominee and we had our first meeting recently. At the start of the meeting I asked the chairman for clarification of exactly what my (and the other staff nominee) role is. He was pretty clear that we are nominees, not representatives, and the only feedback to staff is through the agreed report which is posted in the staffroom. If any staff member asks us to bring something to the board, we are to ask them to write to the secretary.

The same at primary level, both for parents' nominees and teachers' nominees.

amacca

2011abc wrote: »

Yes it's a very common misconception that teachers reps lobby for teachers on BOM .They are just ELECTED by teachers but not FOR them .

Have to admit I never knew this

I always thought parents, teachers, management, patrons etc all had something to bring to the party in terms of decision making and that teacher reps would naturally be putting forward views etc that would align with what the majority of teachers would think is feasible/doable in terms of decisions being made on a wide range of issues.

if it is like the above then in a way teachers are elected by teachers for teachers and for a very good reason (not having voices of people critical to running a school heard wouldn't be a wise approach imo)

bit silly if its not in a way - normally when I vote for someone its because our interests/views align or I think they will act in way I would agree with/would like them to etc....why on earth would I bother voting for someone who is going to do nothing for me or to improve my workplace or not have a similar outlook etc? - I suppose I might vote just to try and ensure someone I don't think would be beneficial to the school wouldn't be elected.

tabby aspreme

It states very clearly in the (primary school) Bom handbook that members of the board are not answerable to their electors.
As a matter of interest what school management issues would teachers bring to the Bom that would not be dealt with at staff meetings.

strawberrie

I would suggest that you write a letter to the chairperson of the BOM outlining your issue and asking for it to be discussed at the meeting. All matters to be discussed must go thru the chair. You can cc to the Principal if you feel it's necessary.

icebergiceberg wrote: »

Thank you.

Somewhat tangled. I am looking for specific answers from BOM members or former members. So, let me approach this in a different way.

Has a staff member ever asked you: 'What do I have to do to get an item discussed at a BOM meeting?'

What did you tell the staff member to do?

Thanks

icebergiceberg

strawberrie wrote: »

I would suggest that you write a letter to the chairperson of the BOM outlining your issue and asking for it to be discussed at the meeting. All matters to be discussed must go thru the chair. You can cc to the Principal if you feel it's necessary.

Thanks.

Seems a pity that procedures apparently are not clear. (Another poster suggested writing to the secretary.)

The Context: Teacher thinks the principal is not, lets take as an example, implementing a school policy properly/fairly/fully etc and has noted down numerous instances of this. (This is just an example)

Teacher has had discussions with principal re this but is not getting anywhere. Relationship between teacher and principal has broken down and does not wish to discuss the issue with the principal any more. Instead, teacher feels the only way now is for this matter to be raised at BOM meeting. Teacher writes a letter on the issue and wants this read out verbatim (presumably by the Rep?) and discussed at the meeting with the hope of making changes. This of course would be critical of the principal.

What is the next port of call for this teacher?
Can teacher say to Rep: You are the teachers' rep so 'I want you to bring this to the meeting and have it discussed'. (What is the role of the Rep at this point?) So would it be up to the Rep then to bring it to the attention of the principal and afterwards the board.
Am I right or am I wrong?
Thanks for your input.

Icsics

I would suggest having a union meeting & then it becomes a staff issue rather than just one teacher against the principal. It's too easy for the principal to dismiss one teacher.

icebergiceberg

Icsics wrote: »

I would suggest having a union meeting & then it becomes a staff issue rather than just one teacher against the principal. It's too easy for the principal to dismiss one teacher.

Thank you.

To 'dismiss' ! What would the teacher be dismissed for? What has the teacher done wrong?

strawberrie

I know the INTO have a document called Working Together available online which outlines procedures to follow when conflict like this arises amongst staff.
The teacher's nominee can't bring items to the BOM, they are not a teachers rep, just a voice giving a teachers perspective on Board matters.The chairperson is the one who can put an item on the agenda, incidentally the school Principal is generally the secretary to the Board of Management. I would suggest following the steps in the Working Together document in the case you have described.

icebergiceberg wrote: »

Thanks.

Seems a pity that procedures apparently are not clear. (Another poster suggested writing to the secretary.)

The Context: Teacher thinks the principal is not, lets take as an example, implementing a school policy properly/fairly/fully etc and has noted down numerous instances of this. (This is just an example)

Teacher has had discussions with principal re this but is not getting anywhere. Relationship between teacher and principal has broken down and does not wish to discuss the issue with the principal any more. Instead, teacher feels the only way now is for this matter to be raised at BOM meeting. Teacher writes a letter on the issue and wants this read out verbatim (presumably by the Rep?) and discussed at the meeting with the hope of making changes. This of course would be critical of the principal.

What is the next port of call for this teacher?
Can teacher say to Rep: You are the teachers' rep so 'I want you to bring this to the meeting and have it discussed'. (What is the role of the Rep at this point?) So would it be up to the Rep then to bring it to the attention of the principal and afterwards the board.
Am I right or am I wrong?
Thanks for your input.

strawberrie

Just to add, while it might seem unfair that this teacher can't have their grievance with the Principal automatically aired at a Board Meeting it works both ways. The Principal can't just discuss issues they may be having with teacher x, y or z. There are procedures to follow when grievances arise, these may eventually lead to the matter being discussed at BOM level or they may not, but they do ensure that fair process is followed for all involved.

icebergiceberg

strawberrie wrote: »

I know the INTO have a document called Working Together available online which outlines procedures to follow when conflict like this arises amongst staff.
The teacher's nominee can't bring items to the BOM, they are not a teachers rep, just a voice giving a teachers perspective on Board matters. The chairperson is the one who can put an item on the agenda, incidentally the school Principal is generally the secretary to the Board of Management. I would suggest following the steps in the Working Together document in the case you have described.

In my example, who do you think the teacher should give the letter to in order for it to be read and discussed at the board meeting?

The rep/nominee?
The secretary?
The chairperson?

Bearing in mind it is an important letter and one that would not sit well with the principal.

(I would not stress too much the breakdown in communication aspect of my post. It was just an example and actually has not happened. The point I am trying to get at is the correct procedure for a teacher to get items on the agenda of the BOM.)

Thank you.

strawberrie

The Chairperson.

icebergiceberg wrote: »

In my example, who do you think the teacher should give the letter to in order for it to be read and discussed at the board meeting?

The rep/nominee?
The secretary?
The chairperson?

Bearing in mind it is an important letter and one that would not sit well with the principal.

(I would not stress too much the breakdown in communication aspect of my post. It was just an example and actually has not happened. The point I am trying to get at is the correct procedure for a teacher to get items on the agenda of the BOM.)

Thank you.

byhookorbycrook

The letter goes to the Chairperson of the BOM.

seavill

I have had people give me a copy of a letter that they sent in to ensure I was prepared and to ensure that it is read properly. I never let on I have a copy but if something was left out I would throw out a question "did they mention x in the letter they mentioned it to me the other day in staff room"

Kalimera

Correspondence to the Board goes through the Secretary of the Board who is responsible for bringing correspondence to the Board.

icebergiceberg

seavill wrote: »

I have had people give me a copy of a letter that they sent in to ensure I was prepared and to ensure that it is read properly. I never let on I have a copy but if something was left out I would throw out a question "did they mention x in the letter they mentioned it to me the other day in staff room"

I would have thought all board members would be given all relevant documents prior to meeting in order to be to be prepared, for example any policies that need ratification by board. You would not be expected to go through policies at a board meeting without having studied it beforehand.

seavill

I was talking about an issue from staff

With policies we are usually given them at a meeting and consider them before the next meeting. Any issues can be discussed at that. Not sure is that standard practice or not but I don't see any issue with it