Renting and water charges

m'lady

Hoping for some advice. We are renting a house and have a very good relationship with the landlord, no issues at all.
This evening she rang and said she'd received the water charges pack and if she could get our PPS numbers off us this week. She did say that she hadn't done any research on this and I am the same.

My question is if I don't give her our PPS numbers can she be held liable or will they chase us? I don't want to put her in an awkward position but at the same time don't want to be too quick to give Irish Water our details.

I'd appreciate any advice on this... Thanks!

ABajaninCork

Water is a utility, the same as the gas/oil and electric. Therefore, the tenant pays.

As I understand it, the landlord will be held liable for the bill if the tenant defaults. Have you contacted Irish Water to clarify? That would be the first step and would make more sense to me.

m'lady

Yes I'm aware that it's a utility and it's the tenants responsibility, however I wasn't aware that Irish water were forcing the landlords to do their jobs for them! I'm looking for unbiased advice and I don't think Irish water will provide that, however I might give them a call tomorrow out of curiosity. Any advice greatly appreciated.

Nino Brown

I'm in the same boat as you, I don't really want to give them my details, but if I don't, I don't get the free allowance and end up paying significantly more.

Gatling

I wouldn't hand over your pps number at all and a landlord can't force you to give it to them just so they can pass it to IW .

Data protection comes to mind

There's using the threat of loosing allowances to force people to hand over your pps .

Personally I believe it's just a scare tactic

m'lady

Gatling wrote: »

I wouldn't hand over your pps number at all and a landlord can't force you to give it to them just so they can pass it to IW .

Data protection comes to mind

There's using the threat of loosing allowances to force people to hand over your pps .

Personally I believe it's just a scare tactic

I'm afraid if I don't give her the details that she will be held liable? I'd like to be able to make this decision myself as opposed to being put under pressure by the landlord if you get me?

Gatling

m'lady wrote: »

I'm afraid if I don't give her the details that she will be held liable? I'd like to be able to make this decision myself as opposed to being put under pressure by the landlord if you get me?

That's the ideas there's making you feel pressured to comply or else .
I can't see them forcing landlords to pay either I know for a fact my landlord isn't signing up or demanding we sign up .

According to the threshold website tenants are liable for payment's and iw cant not turn off your water but may take legal action in future

"In some cases charges may be included in the rent so check with your landlord. In most cases tenants, as occupiers, will be liable for paying domestic water charges in the same way as tenants usually pay for electricity, gas, bin charges etc.

When will the charges start?

The domestic water charges will apply from 1st October 2014 and bills will start being issued in January 2015.

How much will I have to pay?

The Commission for Energy Regulation (CER) has set out water charges which will apply to domestic customers from 1stOctober 2014 to 31st

December 2016, covering water supply and wastewater disposal.

The metered unit rates are €2.44 per thousand litres for one service and €4.88 for both services.

The assessed charges for unmetered households will equate to a charge of €176 for a household with one adult andapproximatelyan extra €102 for each additional adult.

All customers will have their total water charges capped at the unmetered assessed charge for 9 months.

This will depend on your water usage and the free allowances that apply in your circumstances. Whilst some properties will be metered others such as apartments will not be metered initially.

Iit is estimated that the average household will pay €240 the charges.

Each household will receive a free allowance of 30,000 litres of water (and a corresponding amount of waste water treated) a year. (The average household uses about 140,000 litres of water per year)

All households will have an allowance of 30,000 litres per annum.

An allowance of 21,000 litres per annum will be available per child.

Will I be exempt from charges if I have special medical needs?

For medical conditions which require increased water useage this will be capped at the assessed rate for that household, even where there is a meter installed.

What if I cannot pay the bill?

Whilst no details have been announced yet, Irish Water are expected to provide a range of payment options similar to payment systems for the other utility services.

If you do not pay the bill, Irish Water will not be able to disconnect the service but may reduce water pressure in order to restrict supply. Irish Water may however take legal action"

davo10

Gatling wrote: »

I wouldn't hand over your pps number at all and a landlord can't force you to give it to them just so they can pass it to IW .

Data protection comes to mind

There's using the threat of loosing allowances to force people to hand over your pps .

Personally I believe it's just a scare tactic

Someone is billed for water used from now on.

If OP does not register, they do not receive allowance so bill will be higher. If the first one isn't paid by OP or has to be paid by LL, it will be deducted from OPs deposit.

I am delighted that they are taking up PPS numbers, that way it Is easier for the debt to follow the person who doesn't pay their bill.

OP your LL is not responsible for registering you, as the tenant, you are. You will have received a pack at the address you are renting, it may not be addressed to you but it is for the occupant.

Victor

Gatling wrote: »

There's using the threat of loosing allowances to force people to hand over your pps .

Personally I believe it's just a scare tactic

Sorry, but that is very real. No PPS number and they'll just assume it is somebody's second house.

Gatling

davo10 wrote: »

Someone is billed for water used from now on.

If OP does not register, they do not receive allowance so bill will be higher. If the first one isn't paid by OP or has to be paid by LL, it will be deducted from OPs deposit.

I am delighted that they are taking up PPS numbers, that way it Is easier for the debt to follow the person who doesn't pay their bill.

OP your LL is not responsible for registering you, as the tenant, you are. You will have received a pack at the address you are renting, it may not be addressed to you but it is for the occupant.

Almost sounds like a IW statement .

The op can choose how she/he chooses to proceed .

The landlord won't be chased .

A minor detail.

For a lot of people and I mean a lot of people IW is just another piece of junk mail and should be treated accordingly

Grandpa Hassan

I think it's absolutely right that they take pps numbers and I will no longer rent my flat to anyone who won't provide me with their pps numbers. Otherwise tenants are just going to continually walk away from their obligations.

m'lady

davo10 wrote: »

Someone is billed for water used from now on.

If OP does not register, they do not receive allowance so bill will be higher. If the first one isn't paid by OP or has to be paid by LL, it will be deducted from OPs deposit.

I am delighted that they are taking up PPS numbers, that way it Is easier for the debt to follow the person who doesn't pay their bill.

OP your LL is not responsible for registering you, as the tenant, you are. You will have received a pack at the address you are renting, it may not be addressed to you but it is for the occupant.

As stated in my OP the landlord has received the pack- I have received nothing. So am I right to assume this pack she received is actually for me then?

Gatling

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I think it's absolutely right that they take pps numbers and I will no longer rent my flat to anyone who won't provide me with their pps numbers. Otherwise tenants are just going to continually walk away from their obligations.

Well I suggest you seek legal advice first

Grandpa Hassan

Gatling wrote: »

Well I suggest you seek legal advice first

For the water charges. I'm being asked to, remember.

Ocean Blue

m'lady wrote: »

As stated in my OP the landlord has received the pack- I have received nothing. So am I right to assume this pack she received is actually for me then?

No. The pack the landlord received is for her to register the property if she is liable for the bill - if the property is vacant, a holiday home etc.
You should receive a pack directly to the rented accommodation addressed to the occupant/householder - this is for you to register. Only the person due to pay the bill at any property should register. It seems that application packs for rented properties (and possibly other homes as well) are still arriving.....

Gatling

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

For the water charges. I'm being asked to, remember.

But according legal professionals you cant legally do it ,

Ie. demand somebodys pps number with the sole purpose of handing it over to a third party .
Are you a private landlord or a business thats under contract to supply pps numbers to iw

Victor

Gatling wrote: »

Almost sounds like a IW statement .

The op can choose how she/he chooses to proceed .

The landlord won't be chased .

A minor detail.

For a lot of people and I mean a lot of people IW is just another piece of junk mail and should be treated accordingly

"Almost sounds like a IW statement ." - do not attack peoples' comments like this.

"For a lot of people and I mean a lot of people IW is just another piece of junk mail and should be treated accordingly" - do not make comments that could get people into legal or financial problems.

Moderator

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Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I will no longer rent my flat to anyone who won't provide me with their pps numbers.

Note that only designated parties can collect / store PPS numbers

m'lady wrote: »

As stated in my OP the landlord has received the pack- I have received nothing. So am I right to assume this pack she received is actually for me then?

No. It is meant for the landlord. In this case, they are meant to indicate name of the tenant(s).

m'lady

Victor wrote: »

"Almost sounds like a IW statement ." - do not attack peoples' comments like this.

"For a lot of people and I mean a lot of people IW is just another piece of junk mail and should be treated accordingly" - do not make comments that could get people into legal or financial problems.

Moderator

---

Note that only designated parties can collect / store PPS numbers

No. It is meant for the landlord. In this case, they are meant to indicate name of the tenant(s).

Just the name and not the pps numbers?

snickerpuss

My landlord sent us on the pack she got so we could register. As far as I remember there's a space on her form for us to register as tenants. Should I be waiting to get my 'own' pack to the house?

buckfasterer

Did anyone else not get a pack from IW yet?

dreamerb

Victor wrote: »

No. It is meant for the landlord. In this case, they are meant to indicate name of the tenant(s).

Not according to what Irish Water told me (landlord) when I called having received a package in respect of my rental property. Their FAQ indicates this is sent in case the property is vacant at the time, in which case LL is liable. What it inconveniently doesn't do is tell you exactly what you're supposed to do if it's rented (see here http://tinyurl.com/k6s24ka), it just says the tenant is to confirm their details.

I phoned IW to ask what my responsibilities are - I really didn't want to collect PPSNs for my tenant's children (intrusive, data protection issues, confusion re liability to charges). IW said they would send a pack out to the tenant for her to complete, and I need not do anything further.

If anyone's getting calls from their landlords, I suggest telling them to let IW know the property is rented and then IW will issue a pack to the address.

I think the reason for issuing to the property owner is as simple as what they're saying - if the property is unoccupied, it can simply be treated as a second home and the landlord is liable for €125 p/a, or pro rata for the period for which the property's not occupied.

tinz18

buckfasterer wrote: »

Did anyone else not get a pack from IW yet?

+ all the houses in my courtyard. I'm giving them to the end of the week and if they haven't arrived by then I'm ringing them to get them to send it out. Its ridiculous that their incompetence could cost people money- wouldn't mind if you could just sign up online but you need the blasted pin from the pack to do that.

witchgirl26

buckfasterer wrote: »

Did anyone else not get a pack from IW yet?

tinz18 wrote: »

+ all the houses in my courtyard. I'm giving them to the end of the week and if they haven't arrived by then I'm ringing them to get them to send it out. Its ridiculous that their incompetence could cost people money- wouldn't mind if you could just sign up online but you need the blasted pin from the pack to do that.

Haven't got ours either. Don't know about the neighbours as haven't talked to them yet. Glad I'm not the only one but will be ringing by the end of the week.

quietsailor

Victor wrote: »

Note that only designated parties can collect / store PPS numbers.

Landlords are designated parties - they have to submit PRTB forms which ask for tenants PPS numbers.

Or are you saying landlords are designated parties for the PRTB forms but not designated parties for Irish Water forms?

Victor

quietsailor wrote: »

Landlords are designated parties - they have to submit PRTB forms which ask for tenants PPS numbers.

Or are you saying landlords are designated parties for the PRTB forms but not designated parties for Irish Water forms?

With the PRTB registration form, the PRTB is asking for the PPSN, not the landlord. However, the general understanding is that is not obligatory for the tenant to give it (not every tenant will have one, e.g. foreign students).

These are the designated parties:
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Personal-Public-Service-Number-Register-of-Users.aspx
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/PPSN-Register-of-Users---Other-Users.aspx

Graham

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I think it's absolutely right that they take pps numbers and I will no longer rent my flat to anyone who won't provide me with their pps numbers. Otherwise tenants are just going to continually walk away from their obligations.

You may be overstepping the mark if you intend to use your tenants PPSN for anything other than PRTB registration:

11.3 Can my Landlord request my PPSN?

Yes, there is a statutory basis for a landlord to seek the PPSN of their tenants under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and section 11 of the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004. This information is required for registration with the Private Residential Tenancy Board (PRTB). However, Landlords are authorised to use the PPSN of tenants for registration with the PRTB only. No other use should be made of the PPSN and it must be kept confidential.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Use-of-PPSN/1247.htm

Gatling

Another thing to think about for those that are unemployed or are disability or illness benefits ,
IW will go directly to social welfare to get your details and sign you up regardless thanks to legislation signed last year

davo10

Gatling wrote: »

Another thing to think about for those that are unemployed or are disability or illness benefits ,
IW will go directly to social welfare to get your details and sign you up regardless thanks to legislation signed last year

Only if they use water and incur a charge, same as a phone or electricity. If you use it, you pay for it just like everybody else.

Like others, I am happy the PPS numbers are being sought as it makes it easier to track those who don't pay. I wouldn't be unhappy if they set up a system like the property tax where it is deducted at source if payment is not made by the user.

Gatling

davo10 wrote: »

Only if they use water and incur a charge, same as a phone or electricity. If you use it, you pay for it just like everybody else.

Like others, I am happy the PPS numbers are being sought as it makes it easier to track those who don't pay. I wouldn't be unhappy if they set up a system like the property tax where it is deducted at source if payment is not made by the user.

So those whom are most vulnerable can be directly targeted regardless of if they choose to or not to sign up ,

Taxpayers can say no im not signing up or handing over pps numbers but those on benifits dont get a say on the matter and will be signed up directly through there socal welfare details,

So whats to say iw won't seek to have payments detucted from source especially for those on benefit's

Graham

Gatling wrote: »

So whats to say iw won't seek to have payments detucted from source especially for those on benefit's

There is no statutory basis for them to do this. Suggestion that it's possible under the current law is just scare mongering.

Gatling

Graham wrote: »

There is no statutory basis for them to do this. Suggestion that it's possible under the current law is just scare mongering.

No its not saying its scare mongering just to totally dismiss it is wrong ,personally i believe it wouldn't take much discussion with the powers that be to allow it in the future

Graham

Gatling wrote: »

No its not saying its scare mongering just to totally dismiss it is wrong ,personally i believe it wouldn't take much discussion with the powers that be to allow it in the future

Regardless of what you personally believe, it is complete scare mongering. There is no legislation to support this and there has been no suggestion that it's going to happen.

davo10

Gatling wrote: »

So those whom are most vulnerable can be directly targeted regardless of if they choose to or not to sign up ,

Only those who do not pay are targeted by all service providers, again that includes electricity and phone. You do not have to sign up if you do not want to, but if you don't, you don't get your allowance, the bill still comes to your home if you own it and landlords will deduct it from your deposit if you are a tenant.

You can argue about the social injustice if having to pay for water, and the injustice of those with low income having to pay, but the fact is that it is a utility that each user has control over, we are all responsible for the amount we use and as it is metered, we are consequently responsible for paying for that amount. We are not the only country to have water charges, in fact if I heard correctly on one of the prime time programmes, we are one of the few that don't.

Dark Phoenix

I rent the house I live in and the pack came to the house. I don;t mind paying the charges however I don't agree with irish water having my PPSN - especially since when I went to renew my driver licence recently the place refused to let me until i provided proof of the PPSN that was already on my licence. So how can the govt treat this information as so important and confidential one minute and then just expect it to be given to a third party for water charges? If I choose to move house I dont want to be worried that i will still be charged for this house afetrwards because irish water have my PPSN attached to it!

Anyone know what happens if I fill in the form without PPS, send in it with my bank details etc? also do you have to pay by direct debit or can you have them invoice you and pay it after by a payment method of choice?

Graham

Dark Phoenix wrote: »

Anyone know what happens if I fill in the form without PPS?

You won't receive your allowance so your water bill will be almost twice what it otherwise would have been.

Gatling

Graham wrote: »

You won't receive your allowance so your water bill will be almost twice what it otherwise would have been.

that's not exactly true ,where does it say that you will pay twice the cost

davo10

Gatling wrote: »

that's not exactly true ,where does it say that you will pay twice the cost

If you don't sign up, you don't get the allowance, therefore you pay from the first drop used.

delahuntv

Gatling wrote: »

that's not exactly true ,where does it say that you will pay twice the cost

It doesn't. You don;t pay twice the cost, you just pay for every drop you use.

I really don't see the issue of pps numbers at all. The Indo and its hysterical headlines and the usual opposition are making people think its an issue.

You give your pps number to so many people over the years for various things - landlords, employers, banks, social welfare etc etc.

Where's the issue?

If you want 30,000 litres of free water and waste water, give the pps number, if you don't, then don't give it. It really is as simple as that. The choice is entirely yours.

Gatling

davo10 wrote: »

If you don't sign up, you don't get the allowance, therefore you pay from the first drop used.

Not correct either ,

The allowences are only given to those who pay there bills in a timely manner ,

Which i get the feeling that from that statement that those who fall behind or get into arrears could well looses there allowence either way

Graham

Gatling wrote: »

Not correct either ,

The allowences are only given to those who pay there bills in a timely manner ,

Which i get the feeling that from that statement that those who fall behind or get into arrears could well looses there allowence either way

Source?

pc7

As a landlord I find it ridiculous that if my tenant won't give me their details to register (or won't register themselves) that I am then liable for any charges. I've emailed IW to get more information on this.

Gatling

Graham wrote: »

Source?

I'll link when I get to a desk

Paulownia

I just sent the pack on to the tenant, I assumed that the tenant was supposed to fill it in , not me!
It is a utility like any other. my tenants do not expect me to fill the oil tank or pay the phone bill.
i'm a bit mystified as to why people did not want to give their pps numbers, I filled it in on the form for my own home. I have another house with a well and a septic tank , they did not require a pps number with that application.
You need a pps number to buy post office bonds now, why should it be a secret?

pc7

Paulownia wrote: »

I just sent the pack on to the tenant, I assumed that the tenant was supposed to fill it in , not me!
It is a utility like any other. my tenants do not expect me to fill the oil tank or pay the phone bill.
?

I would ask them to confirm or show you the registration confirmation as if they don't register you will be billed and liable.

sunshine and showers

The LL should be sending the pack on to their tenant to fill in. Also, there is no big "secret" around PPSNs and landlords. OP, your LL should already have your PPS numbers to have registered you with the PRTB.

I tend to agree with other posters - your PPSN is only a number to another person. The same way someone finding out your bank account number is of absolutely no benefit to them.

Gatling

Graham wrote: »

Source?

Sorry for the delay .from the citizen advice website

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/water_services/water_charges.html

Scroll to Question K and Answer K .

davo10

Gatling wrote: »

Not correct either ,

The allowences are only given to those who pay there bills in a timely manner ,

Which i get the feeling that from that statement that those who fall behind or get into arrears could well looses there allowence either way

I think you are putting the cart before the ass. You get your initial yearly allowance when you sign up and thereafter each year if you pay in time. If you don't pay on time, it would seem they don't give you your allowance in the second year and charge you for all water used. The answer for question K also refers the reader to question C.

Another good reason to pay and on time.

Graham

Gatling wrote: »

Sorry for the delay .from the citizen advice website

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/water_services/water_charges.html

Scroll to Question K and Answer K .

Your original statement is half right

The allowances are given to everyone who is entitled and who has properly registered.

The allowances can be withdrawn if a customer fails to adhere to the standard payment terms or payment arrangement plans.

18. As per the Government’s 2014 Water Charges Policy Direction to the CER, Water Allowances will apply for Domestic Customers who pay their charges in a timely manner. Water Allowances will therefore apply to Customers who adhere to Irish Water’s payment terms, payment arrangements plans or dunning process as the case may be.

The Dunning process refers to the collections process, whereby the utility communicates with customers who have fallen behind in paying their bills. The degree of dunning that a utility may resort to depends on several factors, including the amount of the debt and the length of time for which the payment is overdue.

ABajaninCork

davo10 wrote: »

I think you are putting the cart before the ass. You get your initial yearly allowance when you sign up and thereafter each year if you pay in time. If you don't pay on time, it would seem they don't give you your allowance in the second year and charge you for all water used. The answer for question K also refers the reader to question C.

Another good reason to pay and on time.

Not quite. I was on the phone to IW this evening to clear up the confusion around the pack sent to us. The pack was in fact for our landlord for his own house. We, as his tenants never received one. So we registered over the phone. All done very quickly, once the initial confusion was cleared up.

One of the questions I asked was this: I want to pay the bill weekly at the PO when I collect my dole, in the same way as I pay for the TV Licence, gas, electric and bins. I was told that if I didn't want to set up a DD or give my credit/debit card details (Which I don't, ta :P), I could present the bill at the PO for scanning and pay it that way.

Victor

Gatling wrote: »

Another thing to think about for those that are unemployed or are disability or illness benefits , IW will go directly to social welfare to get your details and sign you up regardless thanks to legislation signed last year

I would like you to point to this legislation.

Moderator

Victor

Dark Phoenix wrote: »

I rent the house I live in and the pack came to the house. I don;t mind paying the charges however I don't agree with irish water having my PPSN - especially since when I went to renew my driver licence recently the place refused to let me until i provided proof of the PPSN that was already on my licence. So how can the govt treat this information as so important and confidential one minute and then just expect it to be given to a third party for water charges?

That 'third party' is an arm of government that is receiving government funds on your behalf.

If I choose to move house I dont want to be worried that i will still be charged for this house afetrwards because irish water have my PPSN attached to it!

Then keep your details up to date.

Anyone know what happens if I fill in the form without PPS, send in it with my bank details etc?

You won't get an allowance. In fairness, this is to stop people with multiple properties from scamming the state.

also do you have to pay by direct debit or can you have them invoice you and pay it after by a payment method of choice?

I get the impression that exact payment details are yet to be decided.