Ben Affleck vs. Sam Harris & Bill Maher on Islam

bnt

I'd be wary of calling Ben Affleck a "dumb actor". He had an Oscar on his mantelpiece for Best Screenplay (with Matt Damon for Good Will Hunting) before he made any impact as an actor, and he's now a respected director (e.g. Argo). But in this case he didn't get the nuances of the argument that was going on, and jumped in with foot in mouth. Islam is not a race, Ben ...

FTA69

As someone who works pretty much exclusively with Muslims, I can say with some authority that there is indeed a tendency within the Islamic world to be quite stringently opposed to things such as homosexuality as well as a fairly hefty streak of sexism. I see it on a weekly basis in work. Similarly, intolerance such as this is engrained within the faith of Islam, it's outlined pretty clearly in the Qu'ran. (Similarly that's also the case within Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism as well in many respects.)

That having been said, it's important to realise that the Islamic world is huge and diverse, and not everybody thinks and acts the same way or has the same interpretation of things. The people I work with are of a left wing persuasion and have no problem working within the values of our organisation. In the past year we have organised various women's groups, women's education classes and also brought people into progressive campaigns on everything from housing to the NHS.

Like all major religions, it has pretty massive flaws (and ultimately it's bullsh*t) but I can't agree with the notion that Muslims as a group are a dangerous bunch of intolerant fanatics but that certainly isn't the case in my experience.

take everything

Only thing good I can say about Ben in that clip is he has a great head of hair on him.

take everything

The weirdest thing about that video may be that the guy to Ben's immediate right is a former chair of the Republican National Committee.

suicide_circus

Taco flavoured kiss for my Ben....

Frank Lee Midere

Karl Stein wrote: »

Harris attributes anti-equality views to Islam. There are a lot of people from his own country who hold similar views about homosexuals, women, elves, minorities etc and I doubt he attributes their views to Christianity.

Lol. The editor of Letters to a Christian Nation?
(from http://www.samharris.org/letter-to-a-christian-nation)

Forty-four percent of the American population is convinced that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead sometime in the next fifty years. According to the most common interpretation of biblical prophecy, Jesus will return only after things have gone horribly awry here on earth. It is, therefore, not an exaggeration to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen—the return of Christ. It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves—socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically. Imagine the consequences if any significant component of the U.S. government actually believed that the world was about to end and that its ending would be glorious. The fact that nearly half of the American population apparently believes this, purely on the basis of religious dogma, should be considered a moral and intellectual emergency.The book you are about to read is my response to this emergency...

I would have thought that that was how most people would have known Harris.

He might be a Jewish tribalist, but he isn't a Christian one.

jank

bnt wrote: »

I'd be wary of calling Ben Affleck a "dumb actor". He had an Oscar on his mantelpiece for Best Screenplay (with Matt Damon for Good Will Hunting) before he made any impact as an actor, and he's now a respected director (e.g. Argo). But in this case he didn't get the nuances of the argument that was going on, and jumped in with foot in mouth. Islam is not a race, Ben ...

Saying that something is 'racist' is often the defacto position a liberal takes when they don't want to argue a position. It's the lazy way out.

FTA69

Islamophobia and racism are often bedfellows and are usually propagated by the same type of person on the right. However, what Maher and Harris were doing were criticising Islam as a faith; that might be many things but it isn't racist.

Playboy

FTA69 wrote: »

Islamophobia and racism are often bedfellows and are usually propagated by the same type of person on the right. However, what Maher and Harris were doing were criticising Islam as a faith; that might be many things but it isn't racist.

I think its racist if criticism of the faith is an underhand way of criticising and stereotyping the people who believe in it. We could criticise Judaism and Christianity in the same way, they have just as many barmy bad ideas that belong in the past as Islam does. The problem is is that a lot Christians and Jews today are relatively more apathetic about their religion than Muslims are so criticism doesn't make the same impact.

Like you I interact with Muslims most days of the week and have spent time in Muslim countries. My experience of Muslims is not reflected in any of what most mainstream commentators would have us believe. Yes some of the older generation are more conservative about traditional gender roles and homosexuality but mostly they are honest, decent people who contribute to society and want to live a peaceful life. I think we in the West forget just how recently our views on women, religion and homosexuality was very similar to what many Muslims believe today. Societies develop at different paces and we have to respect that. There are many places which are not Muslim where women and homosexuals are treated badly but people don't seem to get up in arms about it. There seems to be this narrative circulating that Sharia Law = mass stoning's and beheading's and that just isnt the case. Sharia Law is a complex legal system based on precedent that varies greatly depending on countries/regions. Yes in certain countries is applied brutally like Saudi and Iran but there are 1.5 billion people in the muslim world and we cant assume that we can generalize that type of system to all those people.

While Affleck's response was not the most sophisticated I think he was right, Maher and Harris have had an axe to grind with Islam for some time now and it stems from their unwavering support for the peoples republic of Israel. They are trying to sway the public debate in the US back in favour of Israel after the recent war in Gaza, they want us to believe that Islam is bad and evil and that Israel is on the frontlines defending western civilization. Its hypocritical in extreme given how Israel itself is a radicalized and fundamentalist society and both of them happily support it.

FTA69

I think its racist if criticism of the faith is an underhand way of criticising and stereotyping the people who believe in it.

At the risk of sounding like a pedant; racism is concerned with race, nationality and ethnicity as opposed to religious belief. Sectarianism can obviously be just as bigoted and yes, the two often dove-tail neatly into each other. Especially when people start portraying Islam in Britain as this foreign fifth column out to wreck the place.

In the UK, I find most of those perpetuating Islamophobia are also of the racist persuasion.

Societies develop at different paces and we have to respect that.

I'd say it's something that should be acknowledged rather than respected. Things like gay rights and women's rights should be universal and we shouldn't tolerate breaches of that simply because some societies "haven't got there yet". In many parts of the Islamic World, these things are actually being rolled back from gains that were made in the 1960s. There are also many people in the Islamic World who were fighting to progress these issues and we should be fully supportive of them.

While Affleck's response was not the most sophisticated I think he was right, Maher and Harris have had an axe to grind with Islam for some time now and it stems from their unwavering support for the peoples republic of Israel. They are trying to sway the public debate in the US back in favour of Israel after the recent war in Gaza, they want us to believe that Islam is bad and evil and that Israel is on the frontlines defending western civilization. Its hypocritical in extreme given how Israel itself is a radicalized and fundamentalist society and both of them happily support it.

No argument there. Maher's opinions on Israel are a joke largely.

jank

The issue raised of course by Harris and Maher, one the the left and those who call themselves liberal never go near is the fact that Islam has a way of perverting normally right thinking people. There is a core large minority of Muslims who actively engage in this activist thinking as pointed out by Harris. Moral and ethical views in Muslims countries by the majority are hundreds of years behind the west. Yet, because they are a minority in the west these views and those who air them are protected by the left. It also of course helps that a they are not white.

No one is saying that all Muslims are x,y,z or whatever, indeed this is not the argument at all. The argument is that there is something in the ideology itself that manifests itself into what we see in todays Muslim world.

Simply spend time in any Muslim majority state and you will see the effects of Islam on the thinking of the people. Anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, oppression of women, rampant abuse of homosexuals and religious minorities.

This is a totally non-racial issue because it spans the globe, from the Muslim portions of Europe, through Turkey, Arab countries, south Asia, and SE Asia and Indonesia. Additionally this thinking is present in ex-pat Muslim communities and alarmingly in converts from all backgrounds. Criticism of the unifying ideology in these abuses and depredations is nothing to do with race. But Ben cannot comprehend the argument and ideas at stake so he flings the term "racism" because in left wing circles that is the best way to make uncomfortable thoughts go away.

Dave!

Playboy wrote: »

I think its racist if criticism of the faith is an underhand way of criticising and stereotyping the people who believe in it. We could criticise Judaism and Christianity in the same way, they have just as many barmy bad ideas that belong in the past as Islam does. The problem is is that a lot Christians and Jews today are relatively more apathetic about their religion than Muslims are so criticism doesn't make the same impact.

That's exactly Harris' point. The Christians had their genocidal period. Thankfully at this point in Christian history, they don't take the faith seriously enough to try and spread it by the sword. There are some pretty sh*tty moral teachings emanating from Christian beliefs, but they're not at this point a global threat in the same way certain Islamic teachings are—hence why Harris is more concerned about Islam. He would be perfectly happy if Islam went the way of Christianity & lost its militantism.

Playboy wrote: »

While Affleck's response was not the most sophisticated I think he was right, Maher and Harris have had an axe to grind with Islam for some time now and it stems from their unwavering support for the peoples republic of Israel. They are trying to sway the public debate in the US back in favour of Israel after the recent war in Gaza, they want us to believe that Islam is bad and evil and that Israel is on the frontlines defending western civilization. Its hypocritical in extreme given how Israel itself is a radicalized and fundamentalist society and both of them happily support it.

Not everyone who is critical of the doctrines of martyrdom and jihad is a Zionist. Harris has some questionable views on Israel, but if you read anything he writes about Islam, his reasoning is spelled out quite clearly and it has nothing to do with Israel, which, incidentally, he believes should not exist:

I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible.

Richard D James

tastyt wrote: »

Affleck should stick to being a bad actor. So easy for him in his cocoon of luxury and security to criticise people for saying something wrong is actually wrong. Hippie political views

So he cant have an opinion because hes an actor ?
Hes in the public eye and asked questions about his views in interviews
Whats he supposed to say "oh I cant give an opinion because im an actor, sorry"

wes

tastyt wrote: »

Affleck should stick to being a bad actor. So easy for him in his cocoon of luxury and security to criticise people for saying something wrong is actually wrong. Hippie political views

Seriously, Maher is a comedian (and a anti-vaxer as well), so what your saying should you now apply to him as well then..... right? He is just a comedian, so he should stick to being crap at that.

As for Affleck, the guy is a decent actor and director, and has as much right to an opinion as Maher, and Harris. Who have both faced criticism on a variety of topics, especially Maher, who is prone to saying very dumb (and quite frankly dangerously stupid things in some cases) things. If you want to attack the person, then it can just as easily be turned around on the other to, especially Maher, which I could have a field day with if I was bothered.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

The issue raised of course by Harris and Maher, one the the left and those who call themselves liberal never go near is the fact that Islam has a way of perverting normally right thinking people. ..............

Deja Vu.

"Learn from this, dear Christian, what you are doing if you permit the blind Jews to mislead you. Then the saying will truly apply, "When a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit" [cf. Luke 6:39]. You cannot learn anything from them except how to misunderstand the divine commandments..."
http://jdstone.org/cr/pages/sss_mluther.html


It's amazing how cycles of xenophobia and bigotry repeat themselves.

thrashmetalfan

maher and harris just want to bash muslims and islam. heard it all before from other conservative types. this is a sneaky way to go about it.

Standman

Playboy wrote: »

While Affleck's response was not the most sophisticated I think he was right, Maher and Harris have had an axe to grind with Islam for some time now and it stems from their unwavering support for the peoples republic of Israel. They are trying to sway the public debate in the US back in favour of Israel after the recent war in Gaza, they want us to believe that Islam is bad and evil and that Israel is on the frontlines defending western civilization. Its hypocritical in extreme given how Israel itself is a radicalized and fundamentalist society and both of them happily support it.

Not that I agree with everything he says about Islam, but I've seen the above said about Harris a good few times, and it just seems to me like a conveniently cynical view of his opinions as opposed to something based his actual stated beliefs.

Dave!

Nodin wrote: »

Deja Vu.

"Learn from this, dear Christian, what you are doing if you permit the blind Jews to mislead you. Then the saying will truly apply, "When a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit" [cf. Luke 6:39]. You cannot learn anything from them except how to misunderstand the divine commandments..."
http://jdstone.org/cr/pages/sss_mluther.html


It's amazing how cycles of xenophobia and bigotry repeat themselves.

Do you realise that you've posted several times in this thread but haven't made any substantive point or argument whatsoever?

Nodin

Dave! wrote: »

Do you realise that you've posted several times in this thread but haven't made any substantive point or argument whatsoever?

In your opinion.

I'm sorry if I don't see the light shining from the anus of Mr Maher or Mr Harris because they are on the "left" as some others do.

Frank Lee Midere

Nodin wrote: »

In your opinion.

I'm sorry if I don't see the light shining from the anus of Mr Maher or Mr Harris because they are on the "left" as some others do.

Your last link was something bad somebody said about Jews. Therefore same as criticising Islam.

I think Harris is a pro-Israeli bigot but it's clear that the left - the American left in particular - find it as hard to criticise Islam as they find it easy to criticise Catholicism. Both are minority religions in the US.

Nodin

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Your last link was something bad somebody said about Jews. Therefore same as criticising Islam.

I think Harris is a pro-Israeli bigot but it's clear that the left - the American left in particular - find it as hard to criticise Islam as they find it easy to criticise Catholicism. Both are minority religions in the US.

Actually it was about how the same notions repeat themselves over the centuries. Jews were seen as a corrupting by Luther and by the anti-Semitic right since. Their synagogues were seen as everything from a centre for heresy to HQ for leftism and terrorism, and there were constant accusations about non-integration etc. Catholicism suffered a bit similiarily betimes and Islam gets it today.

reprise

Nodin wrote: »

Actually it was about how the same notions repeat themselves over the centuries. Jews were seen as a corrupting by Luther and by the anti-Semitic right since. Their synagogues were seen as everything from a centre for heresy to HQ for leftism and terrorism, and there were constant accusations about non-integration etc. Catholicism suffered a bit similiarily betimes and Islam gets it today.

Humans tend to group. Another profound revelation.

Billy86

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Your last link was something bad somebody said about Jews. Therefore same as criticising Islam.

I think Harris is a pro-Israeli bigot but it's clear that the left - the American left in particular - find it as hard to criticise Islam as they find it easy to criticise Catholicism. Both are minority religions in the US.

To be fair, you would need to replace Catholicism with Christianity there.

Jamiekelly

Bill Maher is about as left wing as Bill O'Reilly.
Just have a look at his extreme 360 on the death penalty.
He used to criticize Judaism...until he went out with a Jewish girl. Then magically Israel became a shining beacon of morality.

I used to love Bill. He used to speak a lot of common sense, but then a lot of his brain cells seemed to have died off with age. Remember when he was placing Libertarianism on a golden pedestal when Ron Paul was running for president? Too bad he didn't bother to research what it actually stood for, considering it contradicted his own political beliefs in nearly every way. But then again he was just pandering to the stoner ratings.

Defender OF Faith

The discussion should of really ended when ben said “Hold on — are you the person who officially understands the codified doctrine of Islam?" since Bill nor his guest seem to understand the Finer details of what they are taking about.

Death penalty only applies if an apostate propagates anti Islamic views when he leaves and openly attack the Islamic government while still living under the Islamic state upsetting the Muslim community and basically becoming a threat to the government, but they didn't mention that, and there is NO recorded documents of this ever happing during Prophet Mohammed time since it really doesn't make sense for someone to do this if you feel like you want to propagate your anti Islamic views knowing the laws of the Islamic state you live in leave the country and go somewhere else

Wompa1

Had a conversation with some guys in Europe and the Middle East on Twitter last night who made a statement about "why are Americans so frightened about Ebola?"

Americans are not frightened by it. Why do some people outside of America, assume that the US media is somehow reflective of what the majority of Americans actually think and feel themselves.

Whether it be Bill Mahers show on HBO, Fox News, CNBC or CNN. All of them are about getting ratings, they are entertainment channels before they are news channels. They sensationalize...there's a reason why people are getting their news from other sources these days.

Frank Lee Midere

Billy86 wrote: »

To be fair, you would need to replace Catholicism with Christianity there.

Nope. Read it again. I said minority religion.

Frank Lee Midere

Jamiekelly wrote: »

Bill Maher is about as left wing as Bill O'Reilly.
Just have a look at his extreme 360 on the death penalty.
He used to criticize Judaism...until he went out with a Jewish girl. Then magically Israel became a shining beacon of morality.

I used to love Bill. He used to speak a lot of common sense, but then a lot of his brain cells seemed to have died off with age. Remember when he was placing Libertarianism on a golden pedestal when Ron Paul was running for president? Too bad he didn't bother to research what it actually stood for, considering it contradicted his own political beliefs in nearly every way. But then again he was just pandering to the stoner ratings.

Maher has always been a social libertarian. He always been Jewish too.

Adamantium

bnt wrote: »

I'd be wary of calling Ben Affleck a "dumb actor". He had an Oscar on his mantelpiece for Best Screenplay (with Matt Damon for Good Will Hunting) before he made any impact as an actor, and he's now a respected director (e.g. Argo). But in this case he didn't get the nuances of the argument that was going on, and jumped in with foot in mouth. Islam is not a race, Ben ...

I agree, but I'll never forget out of left field and consequently hilarious this was...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z3GJiZqDCI

Jamiekelly

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Maher has always been a social libertarian. He always been Jewish too.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't know what he is anymore