Asking A Father's Permission

osarusan

I don't really care about it either way, but trying to portray those who would like to ask for the father's consent as actually thinking that the daughter is still the property of the father/household is pretty damn stupid.

Balmed Out

In today's world it's a pretty meaningless tradition that just involves the father of the bride in the excitement and helps hopefully to form a bond between him and his future son in law.

It's obviously not for everyone and doesn't need to be.

I think it's funny some of the opinions of people who say they would not get married to someone for doing it who is at the end of the day just trying to be polite (unless there's a bad relationship between father and daughter) especially if they haven't a problem accepting a ring.

Carlos Orange

I don't think it is stupid if they were actually asking for permission but I take it as more of a notification. Even if a question is actually asked it is just rhetorical.

Tarzana

nc19 wrote: »

If presented with one you would obviously turn it away given what it represents wouldnt you?

My BF knows I don't care for jewellery so I'd be very surprised if that situation presented itself.

Semele

I really don't get the sentimental (or more mawkish) respect thing either. I don't have a problem with respect itself, just to be clear, but I don't see for a second how it applies in this scenario.

When people have been challenged on what they mean by it here it's ended up being completely unexamined circular reasoning:

Why would you ask her dad first?
Because it's respectful.
How is it respectful?
Because it's traditional.
How is that tradition relevant anymore?
Because it'd be disrespectful to ignore it... :rolleyes:

I'm a very private person. I'd be furious if I thought that anyone of my family or friends knew about a potentially major event in my life before I did. I say MY family and friends because it's none of my business whether my partner discussed his plans with his family and friends.

Son Of A Vidic

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Very disrespectful to the girl imho. She is not the property of her father and shouldn't be treated as such. She will make her own decisions.

True and throw in the fact that a lot of couples now pay for their own weddings. And you have a recipe for not giving a crap what her Dad thinks.

eviltwin

osarusan wrote: »

I don't really care about it either way, but trying to portray those who would like to ask for the father's consent as actually thinking that the daughter is still the property of the father/household is pretty damn stupid.

Equally trying to portray it as a mark of respect is stupid, is it therefore to be assumed that those men who don't ask are being disrespectful? Why is it that this one issue is the one that demands the input of the father, would you ask him if you intend to buy a home with your girlfriend, how about if you decide to have a child together?

Its a tradition but that's all it is and for some people the traditions that go with a wedding are very important, there are some who feel its not a real wedding unless it conforms to a certain ideal, the white dress, the church, the giving away, the ring.....its that is what you want out of your day go for it! But couples are entitled to feel certain traditions, this one especially are no longer necessary and even a bit disrespectful to the bride and her mother.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

Semele wrote: »

I'd be furious if I thought that anyone of my family or friends knew about a potentially major event in my life before I did.

I don't understand this part. Setting aside the permission/blessing issue, why do you think that this is somehow letting your father know about something you know nothing about? It's not like he is setting a date - presumably you and your partner have discussed marriage at the point where your partner talks to a family member about it. For most people it is the where and when of the proposal that is a surprise, not the if.

Put differently - would you be mad if your partner talked to your best friend about figuring our your ring size or coordinating a big surprise proposal, or would you be just as mad about them 'knowing' about the proposal before you?

robbiezero

jill_valentine wrote: »

Respect to who? Certainly not the bride, nor anybody else in her family. It's a tradition that only respects her father, and doesn't have counterparts for the other family members. Why is that? Why is it "tradition" to only respect the bride's father in this? Answer that and you'll see why people dislike it so much.

I think very highly of my sister's partner. My estimation of him would plummet through the floor if he did this, but more than that, the chances of getting her to say yes would too.

Some traditions die out for good reasons. This one, like dowries and circumcision, ought to be eyeing the bin IMHO.

If my girlfriend reacted like that to what is essentially harmless nonsense, I would consider myself well rid.

eviltwin

robbiezero wrote: »

If my girlfriend reacted like that to what is essentially harmless nonsense, I would consider myself well rid.

Clearly if you ask knowing that your girlfriend dislikes the idea you are both better off in other relationships!

robbiezero

eviltwin wrote: »

Clearly if you ask knowing that your girlfriend dislikes the idea you are both better off in other relationships!

True.

Tarzana

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

And you have a recipe for not giving a crap what her Dad thinks.

:pac::D

krudler

I wonder how many "I'm not property!" posters had their father walk them up the aisle when they got married, which essentially means the same thing. Or took their now husbands surname, which is another tradition. Weddings and marriage in general are full of traditions that someone is always going to have a problem with.

I wouldn't be too fussed about doing it myself, but I can see why some guys do it and it can depend on the situation, hell some women might even want their dad to be asked beforehand, it'd totally depend on the family dynamic.

jill_valentine

Balmed Out wrote: »

Would you accept an engagement ring?

Would you wear one?

I'm a lesbian, so rings are exchanged. Generally the person doing the proposing buys first.

Which is the grand irony really, no matter how I feel about this incredibly creepy old cattle barter weirdness, I need permission from even more dads than a straight girl would some time next year. And only one of them mine.

"Tradition" isn't a good enough reason to maintain something this ugly. It needs to make sense, there has to be a reason for it good enough to outweigh the bad, and so far there hasn't been a single one except that for some reason the bride's dad is entitled to more ceremonial respect than she is.

It doesn't matter that you aren't really buying her, it's still insulting to pantomime out the motions of doing so, and the fact that people can't get their heads around that sort of speaks for itself. Shur why wouldn't her father have a say? :rolleyes

FactCheck

Balmed Out wrote: »

Would you accept an engagement ring?

If this is supposed to be a pointed question hoping to expose everybody as big ol' sexist hypocrites, you might be a bit disappointed to have a look at this thread from, er, last week.

Dozens of Boardsies in the wedding forum agreeing that the traditional engagement ring is not for them.

FactCheck

Adalyn Scrawny Goalkeeper wrote: »

None have children and a lot were not living together at proposal time (the majority in fact were not), though of the ones not living together a number are in the process of buying/building a house.

I'm not trying to be snide or have a go at you personally, but reading some of your posts, genuinely, I feel like we must live in different planets.

I don't know anybody who hasn't lived together before deciding to get married. Indeed, everybody, not just friends but family and parents too, would hugely frown on a couple NOT living together first - it would be seen as rushing into things.

I don't know anybody who believes or even voices the view that the Father is the Head of the Household. Like it's just an archaic term to me, like calling a cleaning lady a scullery maid or something. Every single relationship I know, from pensioners on down, the couples make decisions together. Sure some things might be delegated entirely to one or the other - but because it suits the couple best, not because "it's a mans/woman's job".

I also don't know anybody who'd bring their laundry home to their Mammy unless their washing machine had broken down! They'd be too embarrassed.

I dunno, I'm joking there but I am actually being serious, I just can't relate to this, it genuinely baffles me, this just isn't how my life or my family or any other family I know lives.

jill_valentine

jill_valentine wrote: »

good enough to outweigh the bad,

What bad? There is no bad in it at all yet some are really hoping and wishing there was so they could complain about it.

holystungun9

Wompa1 wrote: »

You get that it's just a formality...the guy asks for the fathers approval...he still does what he wants even if he doesn't get it.

Same with anal.

Semele

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

I don't understand this part. Setting aside the permission/blessing issue, why do you think that this is somehow letting your father know about something you know nothing about? It's not like he is setting a date - presumably you and your partner have discussed marriage at the point where your partner talks to a family member about it. For most people it is the where and when of the proposal that is a surprise, not the if.

Put differently - would you be mad if your partner talked to your best friend about figuring our your ring size or coordinating a big surprise proposal, or would you be just as mad about them 'knowing' about the proposal before you?

That's getting a bit off topic. My main point was about the respect angle that a lot of this thread had taken, and the part you've quoted is merely a matter of my personal preference. I'm not into the whole wedding thing, and if I were to get married it would be done quietly and with a minimum of fuss. I certainly wouldn't like my partner having conversations with my family or friends about something I hadn't chosen to share with them yet. That said, if I was in a point in my relationship where we had talked seriously about weddings I wouldn't feel the need for a formal proposal, so discussions with my friends about engagement rings would also be redundant! Anyway, like I said, thats just personal preference.

krudler

FactCheck wrote: »

I'm not trying to be snide or have a go at you personally, but reading some of your posts, genuinely, I feel like we must live in different planets.

I don't know anybody who hasn't lived together before deciding to get married. Indeed, everybody, not just friends but family and parents too, would hugely frown on a couple NOT living together first - it would be seen as rushing into things.

I don't know anybody who believes or even voices the view that the Father is the Head of the Household. Like it's just an archaic term to me, like calling a cleaning lady a scullery maid or something. Every single relationship I know, from pensioners on down, the couples make decisions together. Sure some things might be delegated entirely to one or the other - but because it suits the couple best, not because "it's a mans/woman's job".

I also don't know anybody who'd bring their laundry home to their Mammy unless their washing machine had broken down! They'd be too embarrassed.

I dunno, I'm joking there but I am actually being serious, I just can't relate to this, it genuinely baffles me, this just isn't how my life or my family or any other family I know lives.

It's like as if people don't do things differently to others, how quaint.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

jill_valentine wrote: »

"Tradition" isn't a good enough reason to maintain something this ugly. It needs to make sense, there has to be a reason for it good enough to outweigh the bad, and so far there hasn't been a single one except that for some reason the bride's dad is entitled to more ceremonial respect than she is.

It doesn't matter that you aren't really buying her, it's still insulting to pantomime out the motions of doing so, and the fact that people can't get their heads around that sort of speaks for itself. Shur why wouldn't her father have a say? :rolleyes

I think this is getting hyperbolic. While I agree that "TRADITION!" need not be the driving factor, the reality of social relationships is that some things are important to some people, while to others they are not. Parsing that out is a key component of human interaction, particularly with those that we are close with. I don't think that acknowledging that is somehow akin to acquiescing to centuries of patriarchy.

Not2Good

FunLover18 wrote: »

When it comes to marriage proposals, do men still ask the OH's father for permission/their blessing?

It strikes me as extremely old fashioned. Is it a respect thing , and if so, who exactly is it respectful to? If for someone reason they say no would it make a difference?

Girls, do you want your OH to ask your dad before you?

Dads, do you care?

I didn't though I suspect he wished I had and he has hated me since! His other son-in-law did and the sun shines out of his ar@e! Ever since he has been a brown nosing little git ….

Czarcasm

Deleted User wrote: »

A couple of things here make it hard for me to see your way of thinking on this.

First: The father of the girl is not the spokesperson for an entire family. So why presume to have him speak on their behalf? He might accept - but the family actually do not want you and see you as an imposition. He might reject - but in fact aside from him personally the family do want you a lot. If the opinions of the "family" really did matter to you - as you claim - would it not actually make more sense to put your request for marriage to them all as a democratic vote and not to one single arbitrarily selected person? Why the father even? Why not the mother? Or the oldest surviving member of the family unit? Or the youngest member who - in all probability - will have to put up with you as a member of the family for much longer than the father will given he is likely to outlive the father?

We clearly don't see things the same way tax, but you've clearly given this an awful lot more thought than I've done. I genuinely didn't think to ask the whole family as I was already treated like one of the family anyway, so to me my wife's father is just that - he assumes the same responsibility for me as one of his own children when he becomes my father in law.

Second: Why does it only go one way? Why does the man ask the father of the bride? Surely the marriage is introducing her into YOUR family too? Who gets a say in that? Who asks YOUR dad about it? Or by asking her to marry you are you giving that permission to be part of YOUR family? If so then why is she not afforded the same right to do so? How can you speak for your family - but she can not for hers and needs daddy to do it? I do not think I recall one person who was "for" this asking of the father who ever said "Yeah I asked her dad for permission - but I also asked my own dad too".

Who said it only went one way? If my wife had wanted to ask my parent's permission to become part of my family, I wouldn't have had an issue with it, the same way my wife had no issue with me approaching her father to ask for his permission to marry his daughter. I won't lie and say she didn't think it was unusual, but it was only unusual in the respect that she saw it as one of my more conventional views amongst many unconventional ones.

Given that my own parents had already made their feelings towards my wife clear, that she was a "godless, gold digging whore who would probably give me AIDS", I think it's safe to say it was quite a good thing then that the idea of her asking my parent's permission to become part of my family, had never occurred to either of us!

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're even realising it, but you're talking about your father in law as if he not only used to own your wife, he owns the entire family...

That may be how it appears from your perspective Shenshen, however I can assure you that's not the case. I never considered it question of ownership, more a question that it's at least only polite to ask. I certainly hadn't thought to ask the whole family as they were not in that position of authority to give permission for me to marry their sister. To me personally, the term 'father in law' actually means just what it says on the tin so to speak.

I get the idea of asking to be part of the family, but shouldn't you then actually ask the entire family, not just the one person?

Well, I could have done, if I'd actually thought of the question the same way you do, but the fact is that I really don't. I also refer to my sisters in law by their first names, however I still refer to my wife's parents by their proper titles - Mr. <Surname>, Mrs. <Surname>. They told me upon meeting them for the first time that I could refer to them by their first names, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it as I felt it was disrespectful. They didn't particularly care whether I did or I didn't refer to them by their first names, but that the option was available for me to do so. Seventeen years later and I still refer to them by their proper titles, as I'm just not comfortable referring to them by their first names, and we still enjoy a great relationship.

Not2Good

" Meet the parents" sums up my relationship with the father in law aaahhhhh

In the first one wasn't he going off to ask his future father in law for his daughter's hand in marriage etc etc?

krudler

krudler wrote: »

It's like as if people don't do things differently to others, how quaint.

Nox was the one claiming "Its almost unheard of not to ask in Ireland." so well may he expect a response like that

Tarzana

krudler wrote: »

I wonder how many "I'm not property!" posters had their father walk them up the aisle when they got married, which essentially means the same thing.

I'll probably have both my folks walk me up. And not taking your husband's name is becoming increasingly common.

FactCheck

FactCheck wrote: »

I don't know anybody who hasn't lived together before deciding to get married. Indeed, everybody, not just friends but family and parents too, would hugely frown on a couple NOT living together first - it would be seen as rushing into things.

I agree that a couple not living together is much less common nowadays apart from a couple good reasons why they may not be when proposal time comes around. One being both are living at home and planning to move into their own house (bought or built) before the wedding (common enough in my neck of the woods) another being both living in different parts of the country so living apart until they can both find work in the same place.

FactCheck wrote: »

I also don't know anybody who'd bring their laundry home to their Mammy unless their washing machine had broken down! They'd be too embarrassed.

This is totally off topic for this thread but if people are embarrassed going to their home house and dealing with their parents they have a strange relationship.

indigo twist

Czarcasm wrote: »

I still refer to my wife's parents by their proper titles - Mr. <Surname>, Mrs. <Surname>. They told me upon meeting them for the first time that I could refer to them by their first names, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it as I felt it was disrespectful. They didn't particularly care whether I did or I didn't refer to them by their first names, but that the option was available for me to do so. Seventeen years later and I still refer to them by their proper titles, as I'm just not comfortable referring to them by their first names, and we still enjoy a great relationship.

How on earth is it in ANY way disrespectful to talk to her parents using their first names? You are all (I assume?) grown adults, on an equal footing?

If anything, I personally would find it quite disrespectful if I found myself in the strange position of having to specifically request someone to talk to me as *first name* and not as Ms *second name*, and yet - despite me specifically requesting it - they refused to do so.

If you ever have a daughter or son who has a partner, are you going to request that the boyfriend/girlfriend calls you Mr Whatever-yer-surname-is at all times? It just seems so odd!

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

It comes up on other threads about it too. You don't like the permission thing? But I bet you'll be walked down the aisle! or have a ring! a-HA!!

Oh, how did I know :pac:

jill_valentine

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

I think this is getting hyperbolic. While I agree that "TRADITION!" need not be the driving factor, the reality of social relationships is that some things are important to some people, while to others they are not. Parsing that out is a key component of human interaction, particularly with those that we are close with. I don't think that acknowledging that is somehow akin to acquiescing to centuries of patriarchy.

It's not the end of the world, but the babbling about respect is frustrating to listen to because it's so mindless. Literally a second's thought about why it's considered "respectful" to the bride's father explains why it's disrespectful to her at the same time. And it's not even subtle when you actually have people explicitly talking about the idea of the dad is the gatekeeper of the family.

This is one of the things that's so common it's easier not to think about, but for people who do, it's not unreasonable to consider it pretty belittling.

Sitting at the back of the bus didn't do black people any material harm, but we understand why it's not the done thing anymore. Why is it important to play out something this unpleasant when the thinking behind it is such a slight? If it's as meaningless as the guys defending it think, it shouldn't cost anything to ditch it.