Narrow tyre vs wider tyre: both same "size". Disadvantages of each?

mrcheez

Recently got my back tyre replaced as it was worn down. Previous was a Gatorskin, new is a Schwalbe as it is supposed to have better grip in winter.

The new tyre is the same "size" as the original, but noticeably thinner.

The guy in the shop said I could change it for a larger size if I didn't feel comfortable on it, but after cycling to work with it this morning it seems to be fine.

I'm curious to know what are the specific advantages/disadvantages of keeping the current thinner tyre over going for one size up to be roughly 33% wider?

I'm mainly worried about:
- puncture avoidance
- longevity of the tyre
- durability on Dublin city roads (potholes / wet-weather handling / etc)

Main use is commuting.

Rotunda Shill

Narrow tyre less resistance, less road surface to get punctures, (If using non puncture resistant). lighter, quicker to pump.

Wider tyres are "more comfortable", slower, better resistance to potholes and heavier.

Rotunda Shill

Narrow tyre less resistance, less road surface to get punctures, (If using non puncture resistant). lighter, quicker to pump.

Wider tyres are "more comfortable", slower, better resistance to potholes, better grip and heavier.

smacl

Rotunda Shill wrote: »

Narrow tyre less resistance, less road surface to get punctures, (If using non puncture resistant). lighter, quicker to pump.

Wider tyres are "more comfortable", slower, better resistance to potholes and heavier.

There's some debate as to whether thinner tyres have more rolling resistance, I'll see if I kind find the thread. One of Lumen's illuminations from memory.

Narrower tyres may be quicker to pump, but also much harder to do so as they need you to get to a higher pressure, e.g. 120psi. This is ok with a CO2 cannister but can be hard work with a hand pump.

mrcheez

hmm I usually go to 120psi with my gauge-pump so that wouldn't really be an issue.

Comfort seems fine.

I'm a little concerned about the longevity though, would a wider tyre last longer? Do I need to make sure the pressure is always topped up if using the thinner tyre?

smacl

Probably depends on the type of tyre more than the width, where Schwalbe Marathons have a good name for being robust and puncture resistant but much heavier as a consequence. I use Shwalbe Durano plus which are a compromise, being lighter than Marathons, but heavier than many other road tyres, while still offering good puncture protection. I'm on 25mm for comfort reasons FWIW.

mrcheez

smacl wrote: »

Probably depends on the type of tyre more than the width

I guess my question is based on comparing 2 tyres of the same model, one being the wider size.

I'm thinking that wider = will last longer but be heavier.

Wishbone Ash

mrcheez wrote: »

...I'm a little concerned about the longevity though, would a wider tyre last longer? Do I need to make sure the pressure is always topped up if using the thinner tyre?

Which Schwalbe did you get? (Lots of different types).

I wouldn't get too worked up about longevity. You can slice a tyre open on it first outing regardless of the intended longevity.

And you need to check the pressure regularly with any tyre - rubber is not airtight.

petethedrummer

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92412348&postcount=4

mrcheez

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Which Schwalbe did you get? (Lots of different types).

says "Durano Plus Etape"

also note that it says max psi of 115... interesting. I thought 120psi would be the norm.

smacl

I've been running Durano plus for a couple of years now and find them pretty bomb proof.

mrcheez

ok so thinner is better? (i.e. are they faster/lighter/ more puncture-free/better grip in rain?)

Remember comfort isn't an issue as it feels fine for me.

smacl

No expert, but I would have though wider would have marginally better grip in the rain, based on more rubber on the road. Only times I've had an issue was once cornering over a slick manhole cover, and another time where I left the corner too late (i.e. user error on my part). I doubt the difference between 23mm and 25mm came into play.

quozl

mrcheez wrote: »

ok so thinner is better? (i.e. are they faster/lighter/ more puncture-free/better grip in rain?)

I think thinner is none of the above except for lighter.

This is within reason. I'm not sure where exactly reason lies but I'm very happy with 28mm tyres and would definitely prefer 25mm to 23.

piston

I doubt you'd notice any speed difference in real world conditions but wider will be more comfortable and will actually roll better on rough roads.

Narrow tyres are lighter and have better aerodynamics (which only matters in excess of 20mph anyway and is of little consequence if you have full mudguards) so racers/time triallists will gain but most real world riders would be better on a wider, lower pressure tyre but it's unfashionable at the moment and most modern bikes are stupidly designed to make the use of wide tyres impossible.

I ride 32mm tyres @ 50 -60 psi. I wouldn't buy any frame that couldn't accept them.

mrcheez

I tend to cycle my tyres at max-pressure as I prefer the speed/feel, I wonder if that factors in the decision of which to use?

petethedrummer

It may feel (marginally) faster but you are going (marginally) slower.

beauf

Narrower tyres feel faster for me. As the surface gets rougher you'll have to slow down earlier with thinner/harder tyres. So it probably depends on your route. Whats fine on smooth tarmac would be a PITA on a bad surface.

mrcheez

beauf wrote: »

As the surface gets rougher you'll have to slow down earlier with thinner/harder tyres.

ok so assume 2 tyres of same model at 115 psi ... one is wider than the other.

With the wider tire could I could maintain my speed longer on rough roads?

quozl

mrcheez wrote: »

ok so assume 2 tyres of same model at 115 psi ... one is wider than the other.

The wider tyre would be at a lower pressure than 115 psi, that's a large part of the point of it and how (allegedly) they get lower rolling resistance.

mrcheez

quozl wrote: »

The wider tyre would be at a lower pressure than 115 psi, that's a large part of the point of it and how (allegedly) they get lower rolling resistance.

Weird, so when I pump up my "wider" tyre so that the gauge reads 115 psi, it isn't actually 115 psi?

or do you mean it "should" be at a lower psi when I pump it?


Regardless, going back to my original question... assuming I like to ride at 115 psi... is there any advantage to the wider tyre?

smacl

Don't know how wide your tyres are, but my Durano plus are marked as 75-115psi. I wouldn't trust the gauge on my pump to be more than 5% accurate so anything over 110psi doesn't seem clever. Its also worth remembering that pressure changes with temperature, so if you inflate your tyres to the max on a cool evening and then leave them in the sun the next day, you may hear a loud bang and be down a tyre.

On 25mm Durano plus I run 95psi front, 105psi rear, which has proven pretty robust in terms of getting my lardy 86kg around the place puncture free. If I had the clearance, I'd be more comfy on 28mms at something like 75/85. YMMV.

mrcheez

hmm cheers for all replies but I'm still no clearer on a consensus so I guess it's what "feels right".

I'll cycle them home this eve and see how they feel on the pock-marked road. If I feel I "slip in" to the cracks more often than previously (or it just feels more vulnerable cycling over them), then I'll go for the wider tyre.

If I feel the bike is noticeably nippier I'll keep the thinner tyre.

Del2005

smacl wrote: »

No expert, but I would have though wider would have marginally better grip in the rain, based on more rubber on the road. Only times I've had an issue was once cornering over a slick manhole cover, and another time where I left the corner too late (i.e. user error on my part). I doubt the difference between 23mm and 25mm came into play.

Thread pattern and rubber type would have more influence than width, a skinny tyre would be less prone to aquaplaning in wet conditions.

petethedrummer

mrcheez wrote: »

hmm cheers for all replies but I'm still no clearer on a consensus so I guess it's what "feels right".

A thinner tyre will feel faster, just like doing 100mph in a fiesta feels faster than 100 mph in a mercedes. But just because you feel more road buzz doesn't mean you are going any faster.

I'm mainly worried about:
- puncture avoidance
- longevity of the tyre
- durability on Dublin city roads (potholes / wet-weather handling / etc)

A wider tyre is better for all these but I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

smacl

Del2005 wrote: »

Thread pattern and rubber type would have more influence than width, a skinny tyre would be less prone to aquaplaning in wet conditions.

AFAIK, even 28mm road bike tyres are way to thin to aquaplane, and hence road bike tyres are predominantly slicks. Semi-slicks and knobblies are for poorly paved and unpaved surfaces.

mrcheez

petethedrummer wrote: »

A wider tyre is better for all these

Why exactly?

I guess the answer to that will be probably the answer I'm looking for after all

Lumen

Tyres are like cheese. You buy a big block that will last ages, and you're like 'hard cheese is awesome' and then after a while you're like 'I really miss soft cheese', so when you get through the hard cheese you buy a load of soft cheese and you're like 'I love this soft stuff' and then after a while you think 'I miss hard cheese' and so...

ROK ON

I use 23s, 24s and 25s.
I have noticed the difference between brands but on the same brand I have never noticed the difference between size.
Ye must have very sensitive backsides.

crosstownk

I previously had Michelin Pro 4 Service Course 25's. They're a 'wide fit' and roll really well. They lasted about 3,000km.

Recently, for various reasons, I replaced them with Mavic Aksion 23's. I can't really complain about the Mavics just yet as I've only 400km on them but I do think that the Michelins were slightly more comfortable and rolled an awful lot better. I'm going to order a replacement pair of Pro 4 SC 23's.

The Michelins were inflated to 7.5 bar and the Mavics to 8 bar

Carpenter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG28gAJpo_c&list=TL9crFXceL-gU5bw4V-BvGMOiFRHimD3li This makes sense watch it speed is mentioned

mrcheez

Carpenter wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG28gAJpo_c&list=TL9crFXceL-gU5bw4V-BvGMOiFRHimD3li This makes sense watch it speed is mentioned

Handy, plus he mentions 110+ psi is good for my 6'3" 85kg body

So I've decided to keep the thin tyres as, despite what was mentioned earlier, I am travelling a hell of a lot faster on them than I did on the Gatorskins (that were wider despite being the same "mm") and no noticeable lack of comfort.

Btw I'm not sure if my tyres are 25mm or 28mm. The code on the side of the tyre reads:

"25-622 [28 x 1.00 - 700x25C]"

Peter T

Yours are 25

mrcheez

My front tyre seems to be 28mm, but the guy in the shop said the back tyre was same as the new one (i.e. It must have been 25mm)... I never bothered to take note.

Is there any issue mixing sizes like this?

EDIT: just scanned a few articles, apparently it's common to have larger on the back. I've got it vice versa. Hmm...

cdaly_

quozl wrote: »

The wider tyre would be at a lower pressure than 115 psi, that's a large part of the point of it and how (allegedly) they get lower rolling resistance.

mrcheez wrote: »

Weird, so when I pump up my "wider" tyre so that the gauge reads 115 psi, it isn't actually 115 psi?

or do you mean it "should" be at a lower psi when I pump it?


Regardless, going back to my original question... assuming I like to ride at 115 psi... is there any advantage to the wider tyre?

Quozl's point is that one would usually run a wider tyre at a lower pressure than a narrow one. If you pump it to 115 psi it will be at 115psi.

From my reading on the subject, wider tyres roll faster than narrow tyres at the same pressure. Running wider tyres at lower pressure may not roll faster but will certainly be more comfortable. A lot depends on the particular tyre: a more supple casing will roll faster than a stiffer one. Puncture resistant bands in a tyre are less supple and so will slow the tyre down. The fastest tyre will have a supple casing and no puncture protection but you'll spend more time fixing punctures on the roadside...

magicbastarder

smacl wrote: »

AFAIK, even 28mm road bike tyres are way to thin to aquaplane, and hence road bike tyres are predominantly slicks. Semi-slicks and knobblies are for poorly paved and unpaved surfaces.

i'd say aquaplaning is impossible on a bicycle, even if you're using a two inch tyre.
cars will generally only aquaplane at speeds above 50mph, and they have far, far wider tyres.

CramCycle

mrcheez wrote: »

Is there any issue mixing sizes like this?

EDIT: just scanned a few articles, apparently it's common to have larger on the back. I've got it vice versa. Hmm...

Nope, many put larger on the back, I had different ones for years without noticing.

beauf

mrcheez wrote: »

My front tyre seems to be 28mm, but the guy in the shop said the back tyre was same as the new one (i.e. It must have been 25mm)... I never bothered to take note.

Is there any issue mixing sizes like this?

EDIT: just scanned a few articles, apparently it's common to have larger on the back. I've got it vice versa. Hmm...

I've noticed some people on folding bikes run a wider/softer tyre at the front for more grip and a softer ride. On a folder you put much more weight on the rear than the front. We've two 20" wheeled bikes at home, one is 1.75" the other 2.00" the latter is considerably less harsh, but on small wheel the effect is greater than on a bigger wheeled bike.

On my commuter I've Specialized Armadillos' which have quite a hard rubber and I think that gives less grip than a softer compound. For commuting the tread pattern also tends to collect and hold on to glass and stones. Which if you hit something hard, like a pothole, it can punch the glass through the tyre. I wonder if tyre without tread, would collect as much debris and avoid this. That said I've had few punctures with the Armadillos so can't complain too much. I do end up cleaning stones out of the tyres, something I don't need to do on other bikes we have.

The tread though is not deep enough for wet grass, mud, it gets no traction at all. I dunno if the tread blocks moving would give you more grip on tarmac in the wet, if it was a softer compound, or a deeper more MTB like tread.

mrcheez

cdaly_ wrote: »

From my reading on the subject, wider tyres roll faster than narrow tyres at the same pressure.

I guess that pretty much addresses the question I was asking. Thanks.

NeedMoreGears

I use 28mm zaffiros for commuting and 23mm rubinios for longer spins - the 28s feel more grippy and a bit more comfortable. I can't really compare speed as the 23s are on the "good" wheels. I am thinking about moving to 25s on the good wheels given I'm never going fast enough to really gain from any aero advantage the 23s might bring. By the way, both have been good from a puncture viewpoint.

EDIT - I should have pointed out that it's the same bike for commuting and the longer spins