Tenant won't leave & filed dispute with PRTB

Maddylicious

Hi everyone.

I hope some of you can help me! I'm majorly stressed out at the moment. To cut a long story short I served my tenant with a 14 day notice for arrears and then a 28 day notice in July. The tenant was supposed to be out before the end of August and they asked me for more time.. They've a number of children and being the decent (or naive) person I am I gave them an extra month. They were supposed to be out last week and are now refusing to leave saying that they've filed a dispute with the PRTB that I didn't give them enough notice. I'm not concerned with the dispute as I know I gave them adequate notice. I'm concerned with how long it'll take the PRTB to come to its findings.

I became an inadvertent landlord as I had to move back in with my parents a couple of years ago. I would now like to move into my own house as my parents want to sell and downsize. Does the fact that I want to move into the property speed things up with the PRTB at all?

Do people advise I just wait it out for the PRTB's findings or should I try another option? If so what are my options without breaking civil law. I know I can call up every day and just be a nuisance by annoying them constantly but apart from that what can I do? Does anyone have any tips with how to get them out or how to speed up the whole PRTB process? I'm really racking my brain trying to out smart them..

I can't afford for this to drag on for the best part of a year and I need some solid advice! All advice welcome here or by pm

foggy_lad

Maddylicious wrote: »

Hi everyone.

I hope some of you can help me! I'm majorly stressed out at the moment. To cut a long story short I served my tenant with a 14 day notice for arrears and then a 28 day notice in July. The tenant was supposed to be out before the end of August and they asked me for more time.. They've a number of children and being the decent (or naive) person I am I gave them an extra month. They were supposed to be out last week and are now refusing to leave saying that they've filed a dispute with the PRTB that I didn't give them enough notice. I'm not concerned with the dispute as I know I gave them adequate notice. I'm concerned with how long it'll take the PRTB to come to its findings.

I became an inadvertent landlord as I had to move back in with my parents a couple of years ago. I would now like to move into my own house as my parents want to sell and downsize. Does the fact that I want to move into the property speed things up with the PRTB at all?

Do people advise I just wait it out for the PRTB's findings or should I try another option? If so what are my options without breaking civil law. I know I can call up every day and just be a nuisance by annoying them constantly but apart from that what can I do? Does anyone have any tips with how to get them out or how to speed up the whole PRTB process? I'm really racking my brain trying to out smart them..

I can't afford for this to drag on for the best part of a year and I need some solid advice! All advice welcome here or by pm

You have given them the correct notice if they were in arrears with the rent, Maybe you should contact them and inform them that the notice is due to the arrears so you only have to give 14 days then 28 days notice of eviction. They think they are entitled to more because you want to move back in.

You are not allowed to call to the house every day as you suggested because even though you have given the tenants notice they are still "living" in the house and are still entitled to peaceful enjoyment of the property.

NGC999888

Maddylicious wrote: »

Hi everyone.

I hope some of you can help me! I'm majorly stressed out at the moment. To cut a long story short I served my tenant with a 14 day notice for arrears and then a 28 day notice in July. The tenant was supposed to be out before the end of August and they asked me for more time.. They've a number of children and being the decent (or naive) person I am I gave them an extra month. They were supposed to be out last week and are now refusing to leave saying that they've filed a dispute with the PRTB that I didn't give them enough notice. I'm not concerned with the dispute as I know I gave them adequate notice. I'm concerned with how long it'll take the PRTB to come to its findings.

I became an inadvertent landlord as I had to move back in with my parents a couple of years ago. I would now like to move into my own house as my parents want to sell and downsize. Does the fact that I want to move into the property speed things up with the PRTB at all?

Do people advise I just wait it out for the PRTB's findings or should I try another option? If so what are my options without breaking civil law. I know I can call up every day and just be a nuisance by annoying them constantly but apart from that what can I do? Does anyone have any tips with how to get them out or how to speed up the whole PRTB process? I'm really racking my brain trying to out smart them..

I can't afford for this to drag on for the best part of a year and I need some solid advice! All advice welcome here or by pm

Sounds like a perfect example of why not to become a landlord in Ireland.

Maddylicious

foggy_lad wrote: »

You are not allowed to call to the house every day as you suggested because even though you have given the tenants notice they are still "living" in the house and are still entitled to peaceful enjoyment of the property.

@foggy_lad duly noted. I thought calling at the door to ask them to leave on a regular basis was within my rights considering the tenant is refusing to leave after his notice date

foggy_lad wrote: »

You have given them the correct notice if they were in arrears with the rent, Maybe you should contact them and inform them that the notice is due to the arrears so you only have to give 14 days then 28 days notice of eviction. They think they are entitled to more because you want to move back in.

I said this to them verbally and also explained this to a mediator from threshold last month yet they still filed a dispute for inadequate notice

foggy_lad

how long were they tenants? was there a lease in place or part 4 tenancy? did they pay the arrears within the 14 days?

xper

Have you raised a counter dispute with the PRTB for over-holding? This may or may not hurry things along.

The_Conductor

xper wrote: »

Have you raised a counter dispute with the PRTB for over-holding? This may or may not hurry things along.

You need to do this immediately- and also a claim for all the rental arrears.
Its unfortunate that you're in this situation- now its damage limitation mode (literally).

ted1

If you have given them the correct notice, then just move in and change the lock.

D3PO

ted1 wrote: »

If you have given them the correct notice, then just move in and change the lock.

DO NOT do this.

Victor

ted1 wrote: »

If you have given them the correct notice, then just move in and change the lock.

Do not advise people to engage in legally precarious behaviour.

Moderator

Maddylicious

foggy_lad wrote: »

how long were they tenants? was there a lease in place or part 4 tenancy? did they pay the arrears within the 14 days?

Lease was in place but not part 4. They didn't pay the arrears in the 14 days and they're tenants 3 years at time of notice served.

The_Conductor wrote: »

You need to do this immediately- and also a claim for all the rental arrears.
Its unfortunate that you're in this situation- now its damage limitation mode (literally).

Did this online over the weekend.. Is this not just another money making scam (had to pay e15) or does it actually speed things up?

Victor

Maddylicious wrote: »

Lease was in place but not part 4. They didn't pay the arrears in the 14 days and they're tenants 3 years at time of notice served.

If they have been there for three years, they are entitled to whatever protections the lease and Part 4 offers. That said, they need to pay the rent.

Michael D Not Higgins

Maddylicious wrote: »

Did this online over the weekend.. Is this not just another money making scam (had to pay e15) or does it actually speed things up?

Well, how's it going to look to the PRTB when it comes to it and you haven't even bothered to counterclaim? Can't be too much worry for you if you haven't exhausted the legal channels.

Hope it goes well for you, but there is significant delays in the PRTB process, due to a number of difficulties in the volume of complaints and possibly understaffing.

drumswan

OP, if you gave 28 says notice and then an extra month, you effectively revoked the 28 days notice. Have you told the tenant that you want to move in? Then you owe them 84 days notice.

Maddylicious

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Well, how's it going to look to the PRTB when it comes to it and you haven't even bothered to counterclaim? Can't be too much worry for you if you haven't exhausted the legal channels.

Hope it goes well for you, but there is significant delays in the PRTB process, due to a number of difficulties in the volume of complaints and possibly understaffing.

As I said I've done this. I was simply enquiring as to the benefit of doing this and whether it actually speeds the process up.

drumswan wrote: »

OP, if you gave 28 says notice and then an extra month, you effectively revoked the 28 days notice. Have you told the tenant that you want to move in? Then you owe them 84 days notice.

I'm confused to how you figure I owe them 84 days notice? I'd like to know where its written that by allowing them more time the 28 days notice is revoked. I did everything according to the guidelines set out on the Threshold and PRTB websites. I served them with their notice in July and they refused to move in August asking for more time. What was my alternative to throw them out on the street?

Gatling

Maddylicious wrote: »

What was my alternative to throw them out on the street?

This coming from a tenant ,

Your a landlord not a housing charity ,

You gave an inch and now your tenants are taking a mile ,

Are these professional tenants or rent supplement tenants

Maddylicious

Gatling wrote: »

This coming from a tenant ,

Your a landlord not a housing charity ,

You gave an inch and now your tenants are taking a mile ,

Are these professional tenants or rent supplement tenants

Rent supplement and non Irish nationals.

SpaceTime

The PRTB really should do an online course in how to be a landlord.
Too many people are going in with their eyes shut.

Maddylicious

SpaceTime wrote: »

The PRTB really should do an online course in how to be a landlord.
Too many people are going in with their eyes shut.

If they did a course I wouldnt have acted any differently because I did everything by their guidelines. Any such course laying out their recommendations would land me in the same situation anyway.

SpaceTime

Maddylicious wrote: »

If they did a course I wouldnt have acted any differently because I did everything by their guidelines. Any such course laying out their recommendations would land me in the same situation anyway.

I'm not saying that you didn't.
I just think it would be a good idea as there are loads of regulations and requirements that aren't commonly understood.

Little Miss Cutie

Maddylicious wrote: »

If they did a course I wouldnt have acted any differently because I did everything by their guidelines. Any such course laying out their recommendations would land me in the same situation anyway.

OP, I am sorry to tell you this could be a long long process. My parents were in a similar situation and it took nearly two years before the property was vacated.

Sure look at this case, took years! http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/standoff-between-evicted-couple-and-security-personnel-at-house-30541264.html

Sorry to be negative but I think this is a long road for most people

foggy_lad

drumswan wrote: »

OP, if you gave 28 says notice and then an extra month, you effectively revoked the 28 days notice. Have you told the tenant that you want to move in? Then you owe them 84 days notice.

OP is evicting the tenants for arrears not because they are moving into the house themselves so proper notice has been given.

eyescreamcone

Some people might recommend "just get them out the door" and pay any PRTB fine if it arises down the road.

Of course I wouldn't recommend doing anything illegal 

godtabh

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Some people might recommend "just get them out the door" and pay any PRTB fine if it arises down the road.

Of course I wouldn't recommend doing anything illegal 

You havent a clue. The fine could be in the tens of thousands depending on how it is handled.

PRTB are very slow to deal with. I'm a claim in since the 3rd of Jan this year and still not fully sorted.

Flippyfloppy

I'm not well read on any of this, but maybe don't make a big thing about wanting to move back in. The thing is you need them out NOW and you need the rental arrears they are accruing too.

godtabh

eyescreamcone wrote: »

How much rent have you lost/ likely to lose?
+ how much damage in euro has been done to your property?

What is the real likelihood of a fine topping the above totals?

Do the maths as they say!

Damage and arrears is approx €3000. The fine for an illegal eviction is €20,000. Will I get you a calculator?

testicle

Victor wrote: »

If they have been there for three years, they are entitled to whatever protections the lease and Part 4 offers. That said, they need to pay the rent.

They are being evicted, 28 days applies.

D3PO

godtabh wrote: »

Damage and arrears is approx €3000. The fine for an illegal eviction is €20,000. Will I get you a calculator?

No its not. Well done on picking a random figure out of your arse though.

Thats got about as much weight as me saying not paying your bus fare will cost you €5,000

Maybe go review some tribunal awards for illegal eviction and see the varied awards based on circumstance rather than spouting crap.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

eyescreamcone

godtabh wrote: »

Damage and arrears is approx €3000. The fine for an illegal eviction is €20,000. Will I get you a calculator?

It can sometimes be that high.
However it usually is not

You're not down too much as it is sohang tight for the PRTB to sort it out for you

Michael D Not Higgins

Maddylicious wrote: »

As I said I've done this. I was simply enquiring as to the benefit of doing this and whether it actually speeds the process up.

Unfortunately, I don't think so. The process is slow and you just have to wait. The whole thing is weighted in favour of the tenants too, as refusing to move out and waiting for the PRTB case can mean thousands in lost rental income that you'll never be able to claim back from low income/state benefit tenants.

On the other hand, a landlord can have fines of thousands dropped on them for failing to comply with the regulations or illegal evictions.

Because of the lopsided results, some tenants tend to dig their heels in and wait for the PRTB's slow rumbling, while the landlords tend to back down as soon as a PRTB case is opened.

I haven't heard of any course of action that could speed it up as I think they're quite backlogged already. Unfortunately, many of the regular posters here have already gotten themselves up to speed on the legal obligations of all parties and thus avoid any hassle with the PRTB in the first place and so our knowledge of the process is from second hand reports, particularly in cases of errant landlords or problem tenants like your own situation.

The information is thin on the ground so it's always useful to have accounts such as yours to keep our own advise relevant. To that end I hope you keep us updated, and we can give advice where appropriate.

drumswan

Maddylicious wrote: »

If they did a course I wouldnt have acted any differently because I did everything by their guidelines. Any such course laying out their recommendations would land me in the same situation anyway.

You told them they could stay after the 28 day eviction notice period. So not exactly.

godtabh

D3PO wrote: »

No its not. Well done on picking a random figure out of your arse though.

Thats got about as much weight as me saying not paying your bus fare will cost you €5,000

Maybe go review some tribunal awards for illegal eviction and see the varied awards based on circumstance rather than spouting crap.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Maybe I should have praised it as upto €20,000 but the point still stands

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tenants-who-stop-paying-rent-can-live-free-for-18-months-30452306.html

twogunkid

godtabh wrote: »

Maybe I should have praised it as upto €20,000 but the point still stands

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tenants-who-stop-paying-rent-can-live-free-for-18-months-30452306.html

I really think you should read the relevant legislation thoroughly.
If possible push the moving back in line .
Also have you contacted social welfare to advise them that the rent cheques they are paying are not being used for the purpose it was provided.

The word FRAUD comes to mind !!

D3PO

yep but up to is not realy a fair representation on reality.

Likewise the up to fines for bus fare evasion or tv licence evasion rately ever hit the higher points on the scale of financial penalties.

The fact is in most circumstances the awards are signifacntly less than this.

Gatling

twogunkid wrote: »

Also have you contacted social welfare to advise them that the rent cheques they are paying are not being used for the purpose it was provided.

The word FRAUD comes to mind !!

welfare don't get involved it's not fraud to them .

There is no contract between social welfare and the landlord.

Welfare will see it as a civil dispute

NewCorkLad

Gatling wrote: »

welfare don't get involved it's not fraud to them .

There is no contract between social welfare and the landlord.

Welfare will see it as a civil dispute

If people are receiving rent supplement from social welfare, surely it is fraud if they do not use it for that purpose?

Mr_Red

Gatling wrote: »

welfare don't get involved it's not fraud to them .

There is no contract between social welfare and the landlord.

Welfare will see it as a civil dispute

I dont think this is correct

OP You can contact welfare and tell them the family are receiving rent supplements but are not paying rent

By highlighting this you can get their rent supplements stopped and they can be audited

doubter

NewCorkLad wrote: »

If people are receiving rent supplement from social welfare, surely it is fraud if they do not use it for that purpose?

It is. An ex of mine made that discovery when he ceased to pay his part of the rent with the rent supplement.Welfare found out, stopped the payments and requested a refund for all checks issued

SpaceTime

SpaceTime wrote: »

The PRTB really should do an online course in how to be a landlord.
Too many people are going in with their eyes shut.

The problem is that tenants have far too much protection in these situations. If tenants are not paying rent and have been given notice to get out then after the notice period expires it should be possible to throw them out on their ear and change the locks. They are essentially squatting.

foggy_lad wrote: »

You are not allowed to call to the house every day as you suggested because even though you have given the tenants notice they are still "living" in the house and are still entitled to peaceful enjoyment of the property.

Reading things like this show how skewed the rules are. They should certainly not be entitled to peaceful enjoyment of someone else's property when staying in it and not paying rent. It is essentially theft.

twogunkid

doubter wrote: »

It is. An ex of mine made that discovery when he ceased to pay his part of the rent with the rent supplement.Welfare found out, stopped the payments and requested a refund for all checks issued

Put all the facts on paper and send in your report to welfare and make sure you keep to the facts. This could make it difficult to get rent allowance again. Ask welfare would they report the fraud of receiving rent allowance to the Gardai and not passing it on. ( you could do this yourself anyway ) You could offer to go as a witness. You could make a report of welfare fraud to Social which I believe they would have to investigate. They will have to return all the cheques you have not received also this may cause welfare to call to her and she might feel a bit of heat coming on and leave. You could keep calling welfare every week or 10 days to see if they were doing anything about it. Just a suggestion. Sorry for your situation

Alternatively advise them that you intend to do the above---and see if that alters the attitude. If it does- and they leave --rat them out anyway

WHEN U HAVE EM BY THE BALLS THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS WILL FOLLOW --Theodore Roosevelt

Nomis21

I sympathise with the OP but I think a new approach is needed here.

These tenants are unemployed and have few resources if they are qualifying for rent allowance. They have been in the property for a few years and moving will be expensive and a big upheaval especially with children.

The suggestions so far of going to PRTB, Social Welfare or Gardai may eventually have a result but could take up to a year to reach resolution.

I will put myself here in the position of being a tenant and reluctant to move knowing that I don't have any money and can probably hold out for a year before anything drastic will force me to move when I will have more funds to make the move. I ask myself what will make me go now? Answer: Money.

Time to make an offer to the tenant. I know it hurts but think about the money already earned from the property and put it down as a business expense. Do it right and through a lawyer and it will be tax deductible.

I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, its just a way out of an impasse that could turn into more stress and legal problems and affect health. This way in a short time the OP will be back in his house and forgotten about the monetary cost in my opinion.

Gatling

twogunkid wrote: »

Put all the facts on paper and send in your report to welfare and make sure you keep to the facts. This could make it difficult to get rent allowance again. Ask welfare would they report the fraud of receiving rent allowance to the Gardai and not passing it on. ( you could do this yourself anyway ) You could offer to go as a witness. You could make a report of welfare fraud to Social which I believe they would have to investigate. They will have to return all the cheques you have not received also this may cause welfare to call to her and she might feel a bit of heat coming on and leave. You could keep calling welfare every week or 10 days to see if they were doing anything about it

Social welfare won't get involved and it isn't fraud .
The tenant gets rent supplement and as long as there in the property welfare will send cheques or lodge the supplement in the tenants bank accounts

mikom

Nomis21 wrote: »

I sympathise with the OP but I think a new approach is needed here.

These tenants are unemployed and have few resources if they are qualifying for rent allowance. They have been in the property for a few years and moving will be expensive and a big upheaval especially with children.

The suggestions so far of going to PRTB, Social Welfare or Gardai may eventually have a result but could take up to a year to reach resolution.

I will put myself here in the position of being a tenant and reluctant to move knowing that I don't have any money and can probably hold out for a year before anything drastic will force me to move when I will have more funds to make the move. I ask myself what will make me go now? Answer: Money.

Time to make an offer to the tenant. I know it hurts but think about the money already earned from the property and put it down as a business expense. Do it right and through a lawyer and it will be tax deductible.

I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, its just a way out of an impasse that could turn into more stress and legal problems and affect health. This way in a short time the OP will be back in his house and forgotten about the monetary cost in my opinion.

Awful idea.
you'd be better off googling the phone number of the A-Team or the Equalizer.

Michael D Not Higgins

Franco Slimy Matchless wrote: »

What a terrible terrible suggestion.

Personally I'd rather pay thousands of euro in a fine for throwing them out and changing the locks than give them a cent.

The fine is awarded as damages to the tenant though isn't it? Or is there a fine on top of damages?

Nomis21

There were those that objected to the release of convicted bombers. That would encourage terrorism they said. The Good Friday agreement was the result.

Reaching agreement encourages others to reach agreement doesn't it?

There are two sides to this argument. We have only heard one side up till now.

The_Conductor

Nomis21 wrote: »

I sympathise with the OP but I think a new approach is needed here.

These tenants are unemployed and have few resources if they are qualifying for rent allowance. They have been in the property for a few years and moving will be expensive and a big upheaval especially with children.

The suggestions so far of going to PRTB, Social Welfare or Gardai may eventually have a result but could take up to a year to reach resolution.

I will put myself here in the position of being a tenant and reluctant to move knowing that I don't have any money and can probably hold out for a year before anything drastic will force me to move when I will have more funds to make the move. I ask myself what will make me go now? Answer: Money.

Time to make an offer to the tenant. I know it hurts but think about the money already earned from the property and put it down as a business expense. Do it right and through a lawyer and it will be tax deductible.

I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, its just a way out of an impasse that could turn into more stress and legal problems and affect health. This way in a short time the OP will be back in his house and forgotten about the monetary cost in my opinion.

This advice is wrong on so many different levels.
So- we end up with a culture where its ok for tenants to not pay their rent (the original issue remember)- and instead of being taken to task- are given a payday by the landlord, in exchange for them agreeing to move.......????

Also- the OP wants the property back to live in it themselves. They have been living with their parents hitherto. The tenant dragging this out- living rent-free in the property- is adding vast additional costs onto the landlord- not least of all, accommodation costs- as the OP will now have to pay to live somewhere else- meanwhile freeloaders are holding the OP's home to ransom.

I will not tolerate discussion of illegal activities in this forum- if you want to give the OP advice on how to deal with the issue- keep it legal- and hinting about possible courses of action, without actually spelling it out- is not allowed either..........

Most of you have been around these parts for long enough- and know the lie of the land- you're not going to get away with discussing illegal activities here.

Nomis21

The_Conductor wrote: »

This advice is wrong on so many different levels.
So- we end up with a culture where its ok for tenants to not pay their rent (the original issue remember)- and instead of being taken to task- are given a payday by the landlord, in exchange for them agreeing to move.......????

Also- the OP wants the property back to live in it themselves. They have been living with their parents hitherto. The tenant dragging this out- living rent-free in the property- is adding vast additional costs onto the landlord- not least of all, accommodation costs- as the OP will now have to pay to live somewhere else- meanwhile freeloaders are holding the OP's home to ransom.

the land- you're not going to get away with discussing illegal activities here.

Nowhere does it say the tenants are not paying the rent. The OP wants the house to live in himself. The tenants also have nowhere to live and no resources.

What is wrong with 'Oiling the Wheels' a little?

mikom

Nomis21 wrote: »

Nowhere does it say the tenants are not paying the rent. The OP wants the house to live in himself. The tenants also have nowhere to live and no resources.

Here.

Maddylicious wrote: »

To cut a long story short I served my tenant with a 14 day notice for arrears

The_Conductor

Nomis21 wrote: »

Nowhere does it say the tenants are not paying the rent. The OP wants the house to live in himself. The tenants also have nowhere to live and no resources.

What is wrong with 'Oiling the Wheels' a little?

Start at the very start of the thread and read along.........

ted1

Nomis21 wrote: »

Nowhere does it say the tenants are not paying the rent.

What is wrong with 'Oiling the Wheels' a little?

The tenant is in arrears, arrears arise as a result of non payment of agreed rent.

Nomis21

mikom wrote: »

Here.

OK thanks Mikom, seems they stopped paying the rent when they got a notice to quit.