BCW Debt Collection using my 6 year old child's details

Jayop

I left Bord Gais a few months ago. My last bill was issued on 16th of July this year for €169. By the 22nd of July I received my first contact from this BCW company apparently on behalf of Bord Gais. I informed them I was paying this debt directly with Bord Gais and that it would be paid off in full. The proceeded to text, send letters and call me every few days regularly quoting incorrect amounts on their correspondence.

As chance would have it, as promised I paid the final amount I owed them last week (again directly to Bord Gais), however this afternoon my wife received the a text from BCW naming my 6 year old son and asking for him to contact them directly.

1) How could they get my sons full name?
2) Is there any way I can force them to remove a 6 year old child's details from their system?
3) Is a 3rd party debt collection legally allowed to hold such information?

rubadub

I would be thinking the simplest things first, is your name similar to his and simply a mix up/typo.

Did you ask them? I would not even mention that you have a son and see what they say when you ask them who they are talking about.

Jayop

rubadub wrote: »

I would be thinking the simplest things first, is your name similar to his and simply a mix up/typo.

Did you ask them? I would not even mention that you have a son and see what they say when you ask them who they are talking about.

His name is completely different to mine and they even included my wife's maiden name which they would have had no record of from my communications with Bord Gais.

i.e. they called him (First Name) (Wife's Maiden Name) (My Surname)

This worried me even more because although on my sons birth cert we only had my surname, on our older childs we had her name in the format above. It's very strange.

I'll be calling them tomorrow. I'm glad I was at work today when I got the text because I would have gone mental with them and that wouldn't have helped. I'm also considering speaking to a solicitor before I call them though.

Mountjoy Mugger

Get on to the Data Commissioner too. This doesn't seem right.

Jayop

Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »

Get on to the Data Commissioner too. This doesn't seem right.

I hadn't thought about that. Will do.

Degag

To answer one of your questions - it is legal. Bord Gais like every other company would have it in their t&c's adv they can pass your data to any of their agents.

As to how Bord Gais or the other crowd could have your son's details - beats me.

sydthebeat

Degag wrote: »

To answer one of your questions - it is legal. Bord Gais like every other company would have it in their t&c's adv they can pass your data to any of their agents.

As to how Bord Gais or the other crowd could have your son's details - beats me.

This man's six year old son certainly isn't a customer of bord gais so i cannot see how in any realm of existence it can be legal to share such information with a debt collection company.

Jayop

Degag wrote: »

To answer one of your questions - it is legal. Bord Gais like every other company would have it in their t&c's adv they can pass your data to any of their agents.

As to how Bord Gais or the other crowd could have your son's details - beats me.

Oh I know they can have and pass on my information, I was referring to the legality of them somehow having my sons information and my wife's maiden name which I've never given to them.

Gatling

Do you have Facebook and or twitter or other social media accounts

Degag

sydthebeat wrote: »

This man's six year old son certainly isn't a customer of bord gais so i cannot see how in any realm of existence it can be legal to share such information with a debt collection company.

Of course not, I was simply stating that companies can legally pass customer details to Third Parties.

OP is their any other family member with the same name as your son who could have held an account with Bord Gais?

Jayop

Gatling wrote: »

Do you have Facebook and or twitter or other social media accounts

Yes to both although nothing personal ever goes on my twitter account.

Jayop

Degag wrote: »

Of course not, I was simply stating that companies can legally pass customer details to Third Parties.

OP is their any other family member with the same name as your son who could have held an account with Bord Gais?

No, he's the only one with that forename, but even so the fact the referred to him with both my surname and my wife's maiden name would lead me to believe this isn't a simple mixup with someone else.

Czarcasm

OP this may sound completely off the wall, but around the time they were cleaning up the electoral register, my wife for reasons I really didn't bother to ask, put our son's name down on the electoral register. He gets his polling card every time there's an election, even though he's not eligible to vote for another nine years yet.

I'm wondering could they have gotten your wife's name from the electoral register, which are public records, though how they got your child's name certainly baffles me, as that sounds like more than just a clerical error of some sort, and highly unusual for a Debt Collection Agency even to have used this information in the manner they did.

Gatling

Jayop wrote: »

Yes to both although nothing personal ever goes on my twitter account.

And here is the open door ,chances are they have searched your name on social networks and that of your wife and both your friends lists to gain info on you ,
Don't be surprised if you or your wife or family and friends have accepted friends request's from individuals working on behalf of the company

DMcL1971

If a debt collection agency are having difficulty contacting you, they will try and contact you through family members instead. For this they would use publicly available information. Births, deaths, marriages and polling information are all a matter of public record. They may have gotten your sons details from his birth certificate. I presume they did not pay much attention to his date of birth though, as ringing him is a bit pointless.

The usual would be for them to contact your parents or siblings in the hopes of embarrassing you into paying. It is not very pleasant but it is not illegal. Of course if you have been paying bord gais then they should have already backed off. I would advise you to ring bord gais and ask them to call off the debt agency.

COYVB

What was the context of the use of your son's name?

Jayop

Czarcasm wrote: »

OP this may sound completely off the wall, but around the time they were cleaning up the electoral register, my wife for reasons I really didn't bother to ask, put our son's name down on the electoral register. He gets his polling card every time there's an election, even though he's not eligible to vote for another nine years yet.

I'm wondering could they have gotten your wife's name from the electoral register, which are public records, though how they got your child's name certainly baffles me, as that sounds like more than just a clerical error of some sort, and highly unusual for a Debt Collection Agency even to have used this information in the manner they did.

The electoral register makes sense to have the surname but as you say not the child's name.

Jayop

DMcL1971 wrote: »

If a debt collection agency are having difficulty contacting you, they will try and contact you through family members instead. For this they would use publicly available information. Births, deaths, marriages and polling information are all a matter of public record. They may have gotten your sons details from his birth certificate. I presume they did not pay much attention to his date of birth though, as ringing him is a bit pointless.

The usual would be for them to contact your parents or siblings in the hopes of embarrassing you into paying. It is not very pleasant but it is not illegal. Of course if you have been paying bord gais then they should have already backed off. I would advise you to ring bord gais and ask them to call off the debt agency.

The debt is completely gone now so I imagine they'll back of now anyway.

Surely using and even holding the details of a minor us illegal in a situation like this. If they somehow got this information from bird gais, a semi state, them it makes me even more worried about giving my information to something like Irish water. Would they pass on our kids pps details to debt collection agencies?

Jayop

COYVB wrote: »

What was the context of the use of your son's name?

This was the message (removed personal details)

Hello could xxx xxx xxx please contact BCW urgently on 018035111 quoting unique reference xxx. Thank you.

DMcL1971

Jayop wrote: »

The debt is completely gone now so I imagine they'll back of now anyway.

Surely using and even holding the details of a minor us illegal in a situation like this. If they somehow got this information from bird gais, a semi state, them it makes me even more worried about giving my information to something like Irish water. Would they pass on our kids pps details to debt collection agencies?

I don't think bord gais would have passed on this information. The collection agency would just receive a list of account holders, addresses, how much they owe and how old the debt is. Using your name and address anyone can look up the electoral register to find the name of any other adults in your house. They can check to see if any of you have ever been married or had any children. It is all publicly available information to anyone who wants it and is therefore not illegal to hold.

Most people don't realise just how much of their information is publicly available. Collection agencies can use many different perfectly legal ways to find out a lot about you. If anyone chooses to combine this information with what they could find on Facebook, Twitter, boards etc you would be amazed what they could put together about you.

DMcL1971

That SMS is exactly the kind of thing they use as an embarrassment technique, though normally not directed at a 6 year old. Normally that would be sent to your dad or mum or wife. The recipient would ring up and be told that they are looking for you to pay a debt owed. Then your mum or dad or wife rings you in a panic. You are mortified and immediately pay up to avoid any further messages. Nasty but effective.

foggy_lad

DMcL1971 wrote: »

That SMS is exactly the kind of thing they use as an embarrassment technique, though normally not directed at a 6 year old. Normally that would be sent to your dad or mum or wife. The recipient would ring up and be told that they are looking for you to pay a debt owed. Then your mum or dad or wife rings you in a panic. You are mortified and immediately pay up to avoid any further messages. Nasty but effective.

Also illegal because telling a third party you owe them money or that you have any business at all with them is a breach of data protection.

ezra_pound

Jayop wrote: »

His name is completely different to mine and they even included my wife's maiden name which they would have had no record of from my communications with Bord Gais.

i.e. they called him (First Name) (Wife's Maiden Name) (My Surname)

This worried me even more because although on my sons birth cert we only had my surname, on our older childs we had her name in the format above. It's very strange.

I'll be calling them tomorrow. I'm glad I was at work today when I got the text because I would have gone mental with them and that wouldn't have helped. I'm also considering speaking to a solicitor before I call them though.

Every birth certificate has the mother's surname on it (and her maiden surname if it is different).

d9oiu2wk07blr5

First things first, get on to the Data Protection Commissioner. Second, your six year old son is a minor, he's not of a legal age to enter in to a contract, and there was no contract in place between the two parties.

I'd also consider making a complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Data-Protection-in-the-Banking-and-Insurance-Sectors/1249.htm

delahuntv

Seems they are licensed and have a lot of leeway in what they can use.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/registry-details/5271%2FA.htm

Also, is it a data protection issue as they have not disclosed detail to a third party? Its sneaky and underhand, but whether its a breach of data protection is debatable as they have not permitted private data go into unconnected third party hands.

foggy_lad

It could be that some of their employees or investigators got the information from agencies like the social welfare or health service by claiming to be someone else?

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/data-protection-commissioner-entirely-unsatisfied-with-dept-of-social-protection-29957387.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/hundreds-of-social-welfare-records-in-data-protection-breach-354385-Feb2012/

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/commissioner-investigating-alleged-data-breach-by-credit-union-investigators-639334.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/irish-water-investigate-possible-data-protection-breach-30577491.html

my3cents

delahuntv wrote: »

Seems they are licensed and have a lot of leeway in what they can use.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/registry-details/5271%2FA.htm

Also, is it a data protection issue as they have not disclosed detail to a third party? Its sneaky and underhand, but whether its a breach of data protection is debatable as they have not permitted private data go into unconnected third party hands.

The data protection issue is also that BCW are storing incorrect information. So in this case how long will BCW keep this childs name in connection with this non existent debt on their database?

former legend

I have to say OP, I'm just baffled that your first course of action was to come on to boards.ie rather than ringing them back straight away and demanding answers directly from them. If you've paid the debt then you have no reason to avoid them any more.

James esq

Unless you have mistakenly put you son's name on the electoral register or mistakenly supplied his details to another party .. you should contact the Garda.

Cabaal

James esq wrote: »

Unless you have mistakenly put you son's name on the electoral register or mistakenly supplied his details to another party .. you should contact the Garda.

Its not a matter for the Gardai, it'll only waste Gardai time.

The Data Protection Office would be the best port of call, and also a formal complaint to the debt company and BG.

OP, please don't waste Gardai time with something like this.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

former legend

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

But not in this case, I think it's important to note.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

dudara

@Fred Swanson Let's focus on the issue at hand here, rather than speculating about debt collectors in general.

dudara

former legend

I hope I don't incur the wrath of the mod here, but a 10-second google will tell you a lot about who BCW are.

yipeeeee

You can ask them to remove your number from their system once they have an address for you.

jonnny68

Pay these parasites nothing and only deal with BG themselves, if BG don't want to deal than do nothing.

melekalikimaka

jonnny68 wrote: »

Pay these parasites nothing and only deal with BG themselves, if BG don't want to deal than do nothing.

then get blacklisted from all suppliers? probably not wise

my3cents

melekalikimaka wrote: »

then get blacklisted from all suppliers? probably not wise

So what you are suggesting is that BCW circulate your information to other companies in direct violation of data protection legislation?

ANXIOUS

Direct your complaint in there to Mark Chandler. Head of operations.

Five Lamps

Cabaal wrote: »

Its not a matter for the Gardai, it'll only waste Gardai time.

The Data Protection Office would be the best port of call, and also a formal complaint to the debt company and BG.

OP, please don't waste Gardai time with something like this.

Exactly.

I would start by writing a matter of fact letter to the utility company making a complaint on how the debt collection agency contacted you. At the same time, ask them to furnish:
a) All data that they hold on you on their system
b) All data that they have passed to BCW.


I would then write to the debt collection agency and ask them to provide all data that they hold on you.

Note you may have to pay a fee to both co's (€6.50) to get the data from both companies.

It its completely unacceptable for the collection agency to contact anybody other than you in connection with the debt - unless your wife is guarantor or is a joint account holder.

It's quite possible that the debt collection agency is creating profiles of people using publicly available information. However, it is odd that they would do so for a relatively small debt (it would cost them more than the amount to send somebody down to get birth records etc.). That's assuming that they got it legitimately - we know that there is shady things going on in that industry.

In tandem you could make a complaint to the Data Privacy commissioner. However, he may state that you need to complain to the utility company before they will take it up. You may want to wait until you get the data or response from the two companies first.

However, it is a pretty serious state of affairs that a debt agency is harvesting and storing information on individuals and their family and sending unsolicited messages to them. This ought to be of interest to the DP and to be frank a company doing this should not be authorised to process or control data. Effectively they are using the "we know where your family lives" approach used by criminals.

To throw a bit of petrol on the fire, Irish Water is a subsidiary of BGE. I wonder what debt collection agency that they'll be using?!?

Five Lamps

Just in - the shady world of debt collection agencies and the collection of personal data [company featured is not the company referenced by the OP]: http://www.newstalk.com/Data-Protection-Commissioner-welcome-landmark-case-against-private-investigators

former legend

Five Lamps wrote: »

Just in: http://www.newstalk.com/Data-Protection-Commissioner-welcome-landmark-case-against-private-investigators

How does this story relate to the Bord Gais one?

athtrasna

Any update OP?

Five Lamps

former legend wrote: »

How does this story relate to the Bord Gais one?

The company referenced is not the one referenced by the OP. However, it is yet another story about this this industry and it's data gathering practices.

former legend

Five Lamps wrote: »

The company referenced is not the one referenced by the OP. However, it is yet another story about this this industry and it's data gathering practices.

But since the OP never came back with an update, we've no idea what happened and whether this BCW crowd did anything like that. Unfair assumption imo.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Five Lamps wrote: »

The company referenced is not the one referenced by the OP. However, it is yet another story about this this industry and it's data gathering practices.

Are you insinuating that the company in question on this thread may have obtained information illegally? If so you have absolutely neither proof nor any evidence to suggest so. You cannot jump in with wild assumptions like this. The OP has not come back with an explanation yet. Therefore your linking to that other story is at best misleading.

Five Lamps

Weston Delightful Tux wrote: »

Are you insinuating that the company in question on this thread may have obtained information illegally? If so you have absolutely neither proof nor any evidence to suggest so. You cannot jump in with wild assumptions like this. The OP has not come back with an explanation yet. Therefore your linking to that other story is at best misleading.

No, but that entire industry in now open to question given recent investigations by the Data Protection commission and ones that are pipeline. I don't think it's misleading at all - it's the current news about an industry that is under close scrutiny.

The OP has raised a very valid question about a how a debt collection agency can be possession of a considerable amount of personal information about him and his family.

He is certainly right to start raising questions with the Data Controller (utility company) and how is his/her data is being used and it if it is line with data protection laws.

James esq

Using information about kids, generally not allowed.

rawn

I got an email from BCW this morning FAO my partner asking him to call urgently. I literally have no idea why they would have my email address, and we have no idea what the debt is for, as the only bills we have are our mobile phones bills which are up to date! I'm afraid to call them back in case they take it as an invitation to pester me, but I really don't know why they have my email address at all.

seagull

Forward it to the data protection office.