Financial Times: Irish backroom deals

Crusades

Very worrying main headline on Monday morning's FT front page.

Apparently we're due to be called in to the principal's office for providing illegal state aid to Apple.

Not good for Ireland's reputation. A reputation that was earned through sweat and blood and now Noonan is pissing it up against the wall.

AlmightyCushion

I assume this is the article you're referring to. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ae979ad0-4708-11e4-8c50-00144feab7de.html#axzz3EeYPckT7

The investigation still isn't over so it may not be deemed illegal state aid. Also, the decision in question dates back to 1991 so it has nothing to do with Noonan.

Crusades

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I assume this is the article you're referring to. ft.com/cms/s/0/ae979ad0-4708-11e4-8c50-00144feab7de.html#axzz3EeYPckT7

The investigation still isn't over so it may not be deemed illegal state aid. Also, the decision in question dates back to 1991 so it has nothing to do with Noonan.

Oh I get it, plead the ignorance card.

What steps has Noonan taken since he assumed office 3.5 years ago?

The story has just broken in London, so we'll have to wait until the morning for the response from the Dublin establishment media.

AlmightyCushion

Crusades wrote: »

Oh I get it, plead the ignorance card.

What steps has Noonan taken since he assumed office 3.5 years ago?

The story has just broken in London, so we'll have to wait until the morning for the response from the Dublin establishment media.

Have you even read the article or just the headline? It states in the article that the agreement lasted until 2007.

Crusades

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Have you even read the article or just the headline? It states in the article that the agreement lasted until 2007.

And Noonan is only finding out about it through the London media now?

Let's wait and see what the response is tomorrow.

In the mean time, back to work as if everything is fine, yeah?

alastair

Crusades wrote: »

And Noonan is only finding out about it through the London media now?

Let's wait and see what the response is tomorrow.

In the mean time, back to work as if everything is fine, yeah?

You might consider just not making up false claims in the meantime?

It would be pretty daft to pretend Noonan hadn't been briefed on all aspects of the Apple deal, given how much focus it's drawn over the last few years. He's rather unlikely to be learning anything new from The FT article. That still doesn't make him culpable, or responsible, for deals done, and expired, before he held his office.

Jasnah

Crusades seems to be a wonderfully apt username in this case.

Will be interesting to see the actual basis of the accusations against Ireland and Apple, especially any documents specifically involved. This doesn't come as a particular surprise however after the Commission making a fuss earlier in the summer.

Esel

Could someone copy and paste the content? (because there seems to be a paywall). Without infringing anything, of course....

gordongekko

Esel wrote: »

Could someone copy and paste the content? (because there seems to be a paywall). Without infringing anything, of course....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/eu-commission-set-to-find-apple-deal-was-illegal-30623340.html

Victor

Crusades wrote: »

The story has just broken in London

That's interesting, as I read it the other day in the Irish Times. http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/eu-to-examine-role-revenue-opinions-in-apple-s-tax-status-1.1943345

Jim2007

Crusades wrote: »

Very worrying main headline on Monday morning's FT front page.

Apparently we're due to be called in to the principal's office for providing illegal state aid to Apple.

Not good for Ireland's reputation. A reputation that was earned through sweat and blood and now Noonan is pissing it up against the wall.

Old news, you really need to try and keep up with the times, oh and get a bit of perspective while you are at it!

Godge

Crusades wrote: »

Oh I get it, plead the ignorance card.

What steps has Noonan taken since he assumed office 3.5 years ago?

The story has just broken in London, so we'll have to wait until the morning for the response from the Dublin establishment media.

Idiotic post.

IF there is anything to this, and it has yet to be shown there is, it is likely to have been a typical FF stroke arrangement.

antoobrien

Forbes have a very different view on what will be coming from the commission this week:
There no "finding" made yet (contrary to the reports in the FT and WSJ) They're publishing the terms of reference for the investigation

Godge wrote: »

Idiotic post.

IF there is anything to this, and it has yet to be shown there is, it is likely to have been a typical FF stroke arrangement.

Nothing to do with an FF stroke, more to do with the multi nationals being a bit cuter than the taxman and taking advantage of our tax law, but more importantly taking advantage of the tickbox system used by the IRS when calculating taxes on foreign revenue.

Godge

Crusades wrote: »

Very worrying main headline on Monday morning's FT front page.

Apparently we're due to be called in to the principal's office for providing illegal state aid to Apple.

Not good for Ireland's reputation. A reputation that was earned through sweat and blood and now Noonan is pissing it up against the wall.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2014/09/getting-behind-story-that-some-are.html

I think Seamus Coffey explains this really well.

Not at all like the OP thinks it is.

Rightwing

This is a non story, but the end of the ultra low corporation tax is in sight,

Scofflaw

Godge wrote: »

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2014/09/getting-behind-story-that-some-are.html

I think Seamus Coffey explains this really well.

Not at all like the OP thinks it is.

The salient bits of that:

The question will be whether Apple has paid the right amount of tax to Ireland based on the activities that actually take place here.

The question of the $36 billion that Apple could pay to the US is not at issue. Apple has activities in Cork but in the broader scheme of Apple’s overall profitability they are not massively important. For example, Apple in Cork could manufacture a product for the company. Apple could make a lot of profit from that product but the actual manufacturing of it would not contribute a lot to that.

That's not a lot of activity, and a very small amount of tax - it's not about Apple booking its global profits through Ireland, but of the profits from Irish subsidiaries actually doing things in Ireland.

The story seems to be composed entirely of journalistic knee-jerk reflexes. Bit alarmed that the FT could get this so badly wrong.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Rightwing

Scofflaw wrote: »

The salient bits of that:



That's not a lot of activity, and a very small amount of tax - it's not about Apple booking its global profits through Ireland, but of the profits from Irish subsidiaries actually doing things in Ireland.

The story seems to be composed entirely of journalistic knee-jerk reflexes. Bit alarmed that the FT could get this so badly wrong.

cordially,
Scofflaw

It's not that simple. May look simple now, but it won't for long.

antoobrien

Scofflaw wrote: »

The story seems to be composed entirely of journalistic knee-jerk reflexes. Bit alarmed that the FT could get this so badly wrong.

For anybody not aware, the tory conference is on and the chancellor was speaking yesterday. He took a pop at tech companies not paying their taxes.

The timing of the FT article was......fortuitous.

kupus

Scofflaw wrote: »

Bit alarmed that the FT could get this so badly wrong.

cordially,
Scofflaw

They dont get stuff like this wrong, could be rabble rousing, there is an agenda somewhere and the above post just clarified it

Laois_Man

Mud slinging at Ireland, that's all this is!

The actual letter bears little resemblance to the sensational headlines.

One thing to note though, I don't see where anything says we're OK since 2007 as some here have insinuated. It says that in 2007, there was a revised approach for remunerating the Irish branch of AOE. It doesn't say that they see the 2007 ruling as all OK. The 2007 ruling is still being contested. The specific accusation actually states that the alleged advantage Apple has here is obtained every year and is on-going!

daithicarr

As I understand it they are looking at if Apple's special tax rate is illegal , state aid etc, not if the actual activity for which the profits were declared actually took place here.

If that is the case, how much tax is apple liable for ? How much have they paid to date and at what rate?


I'd be surprised if the Irish tax payer got any of it, but its an unusual position for the government, to be trying to deny they are due tax from a potentially lucrative source.

Rightwing

daithicarr wrote: »

As I understand it they are looking at if Apple's special tax rate is illegal , state aid etc, not if the actual activity for which the profits were declared actually took place here.

If that is the case, how much tax is apple liable for ? How much have they paid to date and at what rate?


I'd be surprised if the Irish tax payer got any of it, but its an unusual position for the government, to be trying to deny they are due tax from a potentially lucrative source.

The taxpayer won't take a hit.

Credibility will be damaged though, if the State said they weren't giving state aid, and it turns out they were.

Frank Lee Midere

It's funny that the Brits think they are owed any of that. Its fairly typical to see

"Apple pays x taxes on 1,000x sales" in British press.

In fact Apple owes the UK the profit on the 1,000x sales not the whole sale. Thats the retail profit in the stores, and Apple charges it's retail stores the highest price possible - as high as they charge general retails. Thats legal.

The problem is that Apple isn't paying the 12.5% of the rest of the profit in Ireland.

daithicarr

Oh I dont think they will take a hit, the papers are saying there could be a potential windfall for the tax payer if the tax is repaid.

I'd be very surprised if we saw any of it, but I was wondering the potential scale of these Billions. If it was substantial it could look extremely bad for Ireland's (laughable) claims not to be a tax haven

Frank Lee Midere

daithicarr wrote: »

Oh I dont think they will take a hit, the papers are saying there could be a potential windfall for the tax payer if the tax is repaid.

I'd be very surprised if we saw any of it, but I was wondering the potential scale of these Billions. If it was substantial it could look extremely bad for Ireland's (laughable) claims not to be a tax haven

The US could do a repatriation deal.

LordNorbury

Fair play to the Commission for calling us out on another bubble that we built for ourselves. The point has been made many many times, that if big corporate organisations come into this country on the basis of a very generous 12.5% Corporation Tax rate, and then end up paying 2%, because obviously 12.% percent isn't low enough for them, then this is just increasing the burden on PAYE workers who will have, and who have had as we have all seen, a punitive tax burden placed upon them.

I hope the same approach will be taken here as with what a private citizen would expect if caught on a tax fiddle, which is the original amount avoided will be considerably inflated with penalties and interest thereon.

Somehow thought I wouldn't be holding my breath for that outcome, and same can be said for those in Revenue who failed to act in the national interest and who failed to extract 12.5% in CT from Apple, in line with what small companies have to pay every year.

Kermit.de.frog

LordNorbury wrote: »

The point has been made many many times, that if big corporate organisations come into this country on the basis of a very generous 12.5% Corporation Tax rate, and then end up paying 2%, because obviously 12.% percent isn't low enough for them, then this is just increasing the burden on PAYE workers who will have, and who have had as we have all seen, a punitive tax burden placed upon them.

There is no burden. Ireland gets advantage because of the wages of the 100,000's of workers who work in these companies - some of the highest paid jobs in Ireland.

That money from those jobs is without a shadow of a doubt a net income for Ireland by some distance. If those jobs disappeared on the basis of your argument the country would be in an awful bad state compared to now.

Ireland is in no position to be moral about this. Other countries want what Ireland has and that is the be all and end all and they are determined to take the only advantage we have away from us.

It must be defended at all costs. Because if these companies leave Ireland there is nothing left here.

Laois_Man

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

There is no burden. Ireland gets advantage because of the wages of the 100,000's of workers who work in these companies - some of the highest paid jobs in Ireland.

That money from those jobs is without a shadow of a doubt a net income for Ireland by some distance. If those jobs disappeared on the basis of your argument the country would be in an awful bad state compared to now.

Ireland is in no position to be moral about this. Other countries want what Ireland has and that is the be all and end all and they are determined to take the only advantage we have away from us.

It must be defended at all costs. Because if these companies leave Ireland there is nothing left here.

Good post. Although our corporation tax rate is not the only advantage we have.
- We have built up serious IT infrastructure in terms of physical assets and personnel, but local and imported skills,
- Multinationals have built up years, in some cases decades of intellectual assets
- we have English as the primary language,
- we have the IDA,
- we have an extensive tax treaty network,
- we have our physical location,
- we have our timezone,
- we have no capital duty tax,
- we have no capital gains tax exit charge to EU/Treaty countries,
- we offer very good R&D tax breaks,
- we offer tax breaks on acquisition of IP,
- we charge no custom duties on Irish goods on their importation into other parts of the EU,
- we have laws broadly similar to the US.

But the Corp tax is the biggest thing - and people do have to stop acting like, or believing that other countries, be it other EU countries or the US, are our friends.

It's disturbing the debts that Europe seems to have gone to to pick out any shred of suggestion of wrongdoing in what I see as nothing more than a conscious effort to support the US senate committee assessment fronted by McClain & Levin 18 moths ago which found Ireland to be a tax haven.

They've been trying to beat us into submission on this for many years and this is the latest tactic. If it is found to break EU rules, then yes it must be defended at all costs....one cost of which will have to be reevaluation of our EU membership or at least a serious debate of it. None of which bears thinking about. It's a nigtmare scenario either way

Scofflaw

daithicarr wrote: »

Oh I dont think they will take a hit, the papers are saying there could be a potential windfall for the tax payer if the tax is repaid.

I'd be very surprised if we saw any of it, but I was wondering the potential scale of these Billions. If it was substantial it could look extremely bad for Ireland's (laughable) claims not to be a tax haven

It's not going to be either of those things, because this is not about the "double Irish" or the "Dutch sandwich" or the billions Apple funnels through Ireland.

Despite the journalistic frenzy, this is about Apple's manufacturing subsidiary in Cork and its purchasing of supplies in Ireland. It's small scale stuff.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Victor

Laois_Man wrote: »

Good post. Although our corporation tax rate is not the only advantage we have.
- We have built up serious IT infrastructure in terms of physical assets and personnel, but local and imported skills,
- Multinationals have built up years, in some cases decades of intellectual assets
- we have English as the primary language,
- we have the IDA,
- we have an extensive tax treaty network,
- we have our physical location,
- we have our timezone,
- we have no capital duty tax,
- we have no capital gains tax exit charge to EU/Treaty countries,
- we offer very good R&D tax breaks,
- we offer tax breaks on acquisition of IP,
- we charge no custom duties on Irish goods on their importation into other parts of the EU,
- we have laws broadly similar to the US.

But the Corp tax is the biggest thing - and people do have to stop acting like, or believing that other countries, be it other EU countries or the US, are our friends.

It's disturbing the debts that Europe seems to have gone to to pick out any shred of suggestion of wrongdoing in what I see as nothing more than a conscious effort to support the US senate committee assessment fronted by McClain & Levin 18 moths ago which found Ireland to be a tax haven.

They've been trying to beat us into submission on this for many years and this is the latest tactic. If it is found to break EU rules, then yes it must be defended at all costs....one cost of which will have to be reevaluation of our EU membership or at least a serious debate of it. None of which bears thinking about. It's a nigtmare scenario either way

You forget a few things:
* We are in the EU.
* We use the Euro.
* We have a common travel area with the UK, have freedom of movement in the EU and a liberal visa regime elsewhere.

We will not be re-evaluating membership of or leaving the EU.

Laois_Man

Victor wrote: »

You forget a few things:
* We are in the EU.
* We use the Euro.
* We have a common travel area with the UK, have freedom of movement in the EU and a liberal visa regime elsewhere.

We will not be re-evaluating membership of or leaving the EU.

We don't have most of those things as a differentiator between us and most of Europe and some of it, I did mention

As for leaving the EU, the UK might be leaving it in 3 years. It will probably be by then that these probably lengthy process around these Apple procedures are coming to a head - and you can be sure if they get theor way with Apple,they'll start looking at the IBM's, Intel's etc etc too and start complaining that EU rules are being broken everywhere - until our new FDI stops and our existing FDI gets scared away. All I am saying is, us saying to them "stuff you're rules, we're out" could become something that isn't unmentionable if it comes to a choice between losing the FDI and staying in the EU. Leaving the EU might not save the FDI,it might even make us lose it faster, but there could be a debate there to be had, especially if our biggest customer, the UK, are already packing up and heading out.

Scofflaw

Laois_Man wrote: »

Good post. Although our corporation tax rate is not the only advantage we have.
- We have built up serious IT infrastructure in terms of physical assets and personnel, but local and imported skills,
- Multinationals have built up years, in some cases decades of intellectual assets
- we have English as the primary language,
- we have the IDA,
- we have an extensive tax treaty network,
- we have our physical location,
- we have our timezone,
- we have no capital duty tax,
- we have no capital gains tax exit charge to EU/Treaty countries,
- we offer very good R&D tax breaks,
- we offer tax breaks on acquisition of IP,
- we charge no custom duties on Irish goods on their importation into other parts of the EU,
- we have laws broadly similar to the US.

But the Corp tax is the biggest thing - and people do have to stop acting like, or believing that other countries, be it other EU countries or the US, are our friends.

It's disturbing the debts that Europe seems to have gone to to pick out any shred of suggestion of wrongdoing in what I see as nothing more than a conscious effort to support the US senate committee assessment fronted by McClain & Levin 18 moths ago which found Ireland to be a tax haven.

They've been trying to beat us into submission on this for many years and this is the latest tactic. If it is found to break EU rules, then yes it must be defended at all costs....one cost of which will have to be reevaluation of our EU membership or at least a serious debate of it. None of which bears thinking about. It's a nigtmare scenario either way

This is one of several cases that have recently started - one of the three or four that day. It's nothing to do with our rate of corporation tax. It's nothing to do with our role as a (semi) tax haven. It is to do, quite simply, with the kind of deals we cut 25-35 years ago to attract our first rounds of FDI.

Almost everything that has been said so far on this subject is basically irrelevant, and by nearly everybody concerned. The Brits want to hold it up as unfair competition, and it may well be, but it has nothing to do with the current way we compete for FDI, and the case has no relevance whatsoever to the ability of the UK to attract FDI, or for their prospects, or ours, outside the EU.

I'm absolutely amazed at the level of hysteria and the fact that it's apparently based on totally ignoring very straightforward and quite simple facts. Even at Lisbon, or during the bailout, there was some excuse for the bizarre interpretations and scaremongering, but here there really isn't any.

boggled,
Scofflaw

Victor

Laois_Man wrote: »

We don't have most of those things as a differentiator between us and most of Europe and some of it, I did mention

As for leaving the EU, the UK might be leaving it in 3 years. It will probably be by then that these probably lengthy process around these Apple procedures are coming to a head - and you can be sure if they get theor way with Apple,they'll start looking at the IBM's, Intel's etc etc too and start complaining that EU rules are being broken everywhere - until our new FDI stops and our existing FDI gets scared away. All I am saying is, us saying to them "stuff you're rules, we're out" could become something that isn't unmentionable if it comes to a choice between losing the FDI and staying in the EU. Leaving the EU might not save the FDI,it might even make us lose it faster, but there could be a debate there to be had, especially if our biggest customer, the UK, are already packing up and heading out.

English language, EU membership and using the Euro means Ireland, no the UK. The EU is more important than the UK to FDI investors.

As for the UK leaving the EU. It could cost them 5 million jobs, they would no longer have a say in EU legislation and would be at risk of having to pay import duties on their exports to the EU. Not going to happen.

hmmm

Laois_Man wrote: »

All I am saying is, us saying to them "stuff you're rules, we're out" could become something that isn't unmentionable if it comes to a choice between losing the FDI and staying in the EU.

The only reason the FDI is here is because we have access to EU markets. We can't build a sound economy on the back of being tax parasites, and it's well past time we stopped defending the indefensible and blaming others for the problems we created. Irish governments realise we can't continue like this, but they hope that if we build up a strong enough base of FDI we can survive when the inevitable tax changes occur.

Godge

Scofflaw wrote: »

This is one of several cases that have recently started - one of the three or four that day. It's nothing to do with our rate of corporation tax. It's nothing to do with our role as a (semi) tax haven. It is to do, quite simply, with the kind of deals we cut 25-35 years ago to attract our first rounds of FDI.

Almost everything that has been said so far on this subject is basically irrelevant, and by nearly everybody concerned. The Brits want to hold it up as unfair competition, and it may well be, but it has nothing to do with the current way we compete for FDI, and the case has no relevance whatsoever to the ability of the UK to attract FDI, or for their prospects, or ours, outside the EU.

I'm absolutely amazed at the level of hysteria and the fact that it's apparently based on totally ignoring very straightforward and quite simple facts. Even at Lisbon, or during the bailout, there was some excuse for the bizarre interpretations and scaremongering, but here there really isn't any.

boggled,
Scofflaw

This has made media headlines for days now. I don't understand why.

LordNorbury

hmmm wrote: »

The only reason the FDI is here is because we have access to EU markets. We can't build a sound economy on the back of being tax parasites, and it's well past time we stopped defending the indefensible and blaming others for the problems we created. Irish governments realise we can't continue like this, but they hope that if we build up a strong enough base of FDI we can survive when the inevitable tax changes occur.

We'll be lucky if this doesn't play out like our property market collapse, which was another clear example of us thinking we could play hard and fast and that it would all come together on the day. Only in this country could Apple pull this off, because we have a herd of taxpayers in this country who will not take issue with a the wealthiest multinational on earth, telling the government, under threat of massive job displacement, that it will not be paying the 12% CT rate that it came here to avail of, but will rather pay 2% and if they don't like that, the consequence may well end up being 0% CT and the loss of many jobs.

What successive governments have done on our behalf, is tolerate this insanity, and then turned around to the PAYE workers of this country and handed them the bill, via higher personal taxation and higher VAT and higher duties, for the tax evasion that Apple and others have been engaged in, which we are now seeing has resulted in someone who earns a cent above 32,800 Euro, being taxed at 41% on that amount.

So workers earning a reasonably low sum as just under 33K, get taxed into what is effectively destitution, because the largest and wealthiest corporation on earth and others, decides that it wants to basically pay no tax?!? What sort of world are we now living in when this is tolerated by those that we elect???

And now that it has been called out clearly for what it is, instead of imposing arrears of tax monies unpaid, plus interest, plus penalties, the order of the day is STILL to pander to these multinationals and continue with a pointless legal brawl with the EU?!? Would this government tolerate a scenario whereby PAYE workers all grouped together and started campaigning for a 2% PAYE rate?!? No, because people wouldn't be so stupid as to think you could run a country where people paid 2% in income tax. WHY WHY WHY is this so different for corporate entities???

LordNorbury

Scofflaw wrote: »

This is one of several cases that have recently started - one of the three or four that day. It's nothing to do with our rate of corporation tax. It's nothing to do with our role as a (semi) tax haven. It is to do, quite simply, with the kind of deals we cut 25-35 years ago to attract our first rounds of FDI.

Almost everything that has been said so far on this subject is basically irrelevant, and by nearly everybody concerned. The Brits want to hold it up as unfair competition, and it may well be, but it has nothing to do with the current way we compete for FDI, and the case has no relevance whatsoever to the ability of the UK to attract FDI, or for their prospects, or ours, outside the EU.

I'm absolutely amazed at the level of hysteria and the fact that it's apparently based on totally ignoring very straightforward and quite simple facts. Even at Lisbon, or during the bailout, there was some excuse for the bizarre interpretations and scaremongering, but here there really isn't any.

boggled,
Scofflaw

Sounds like a highly unusual view to hold, that there is no problem here, lets just continue as we were, basically nothing to see here.

Godge

LordNorbury wrote: »

We'll be lucky if this doesn't play out like our property market collapse, which was another clear example of us thinking we could play hard and fast and that it would all come together on the day. Only in this country could Apple pull this off, because we have a herd of taxpayers in this country who will not take issue with a the wealthiest multinational on earth, telling the government, under threat of massive job displacement, that it will not be paying the 12% CT rate that it came here to avail of, but will rather pay 2% and if they don't like that, the consequence may well end up being 0% CT and the loss of many jobs.

What successive governments have done on our behalf, is tolerate this insanity, and then turned around to the PAYE workers of this country and handed them the bill, via higher personal taxation and higher VAT and higher duties, for the tax evasion that Apple and others have been engaged in, which we are now seeing has resulted in someone who earns a cent above 32,800 Euro, being taxed at 41% on that amount.

So workers earning a reasonably low sum as just under 33K, get taxed into what is effectively destitution, because the largest and wealthiest corporation on earth and others, decides that it wants to basically pay no tax?!? What sort of world are we now living in when this is tolerated by those that we elect???

And now that it has been called out clearly for what it is, instead of imposing arrears of tax monies unpaid, plus interest, plus penalties, the order of the day is STILL to pander to these multinationals and continue with a pointless legal brawl with the EU?!? Would this government tolerate a scenario whereby PAYE workers all grouped together and started campaigning for a 2% PAYE rate?!? No, because people wouldn't be so stupid as to think you could run a country where people paid 2% in income tax. WHY WHY WHY is this so different for corporate entities???

You seem to have researched this comprehensively in order to be able to say that "the wealthiest multinational on earth, telling the government, under threat of massive job displacement, that it will not be paying the 12% CT rate that it came here to avail of, but will rather pay 2% and if they don't like that, the consequence may well end up being 0% CT and the loss of many jobs"

Have you any basis, other than tabloid-type media stories to be able to reach this conclusion?

LordNorbury

Godge wrote: »

You seem to have researched this comprehensively in order to be able to say that "the wealthiest multinational on earth, telling the government, under threat of massive job displacement, that it will not be paying the 12% CT rate that it came here to avail of, but will rather pay 2% and if they don't like that, the consequence may well end up being 0% CT and the loss of many jobs"

Have you any basis, other than tabloid-type media stories to be able to reach this conclusion?

Are you saying Apple isn't the wealthiest MNC on earth? As far as I know it is.

Are you saying they have been paying 2% corporation tax when they came here on the understanding that they would be paying 12.5% tax? Because that is what they have been doing.

Why are you doing the bidding for these people??? You are paying the tax that they are evading! What part of what I'm saying do you disagree with as a fact?

Godge

LordNorbury wrote: »

Are you saying Apple isn't the wealthiest MNC on earth? As far as I know it is.

Are you saying they have been paying 2% corporation tax when they came here on the understanding that they would be paying 12.5% tax? Because that is what they have been doing.

Why are you doing the bidding for these people??? You are paying the tax that they are evading! What part of what I'm saying do you disagree with as a fact?

From what I have seen and read, there is nothing special or unusual about the way Apple have managed their tax affairs. From the clear explanations given by expert commentators rather than tabloid journalists, any problems with Apple are down to American tax laws rather than Irish tax laws. There is no pot of gold of unpaid tax to Ireland. Ireland's tax laws are not the problem.

LordNorbury

Godge wrote: »

From what I have seen and read, there is nothing special or unusual about the way Apple have managed their tax affairs. From the clear explanations given by expert commentators rather than tabloid journalists, any problems with Apple are down to American tax laws rather than Irish tax laws. There is no pot of gold of unpaid tax to Ireland. Ireland's tax laws are not the problem.

I run my own business, it being a company, it creates an annual liability for the company to the payment of Corporation Tax, the current rate being 12.5%. It's an extraordinarily simple procedure to calculate what your CT exposure is in any year. Now my company is a small company, it isn't open to us to tell Revenue what tax I would like to pay, and ask/demand Revenue to reverse engineer the calculations and the arithmetic, so that the tax liability we agree, is what I want to pay, as distinct from what a democratically elected government tells me I MUST pay.

This goes to the very centre of how we wish to be governed. Allowing any entity, big or small, to set aside very simple and clear tax policy and dictate to you what they will be paying, this is how they do things maybe in Calcutta or Bangladesh or some other 3rd world corrupted place, not in an apparently developed 1st world state.

Scofflaw

LordNorbury wrote: »

Sounds like a highly unusual view to hold, that there is no problem here, lets just continue as we were, basically nothing to see here.

That might well be, but I didn't express that view. I expressed the view that this case has nothing to do with the wider issues of the tax arrangements that allow MNCs to funnel profits through Ireland.

I expressed that view because those are the facts - this case has nothing to do with those issues. It is about something quite different.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Frank Lee Midere

Victor wrote: »

English language, EU membership and using the Euro means Ireland, no the UK. The EU is more important than the UK to FDI investors.

As for the UK leaving the EU. It could cost them 5 million jobs, they would no longer have a say in EU legislation and would be at risk of having to pay import duties on their exports to the EU. Not going to happen.

The scares about loss of jobs are exactly that. Scares. Bedtime stories. The UK will just make a bilateral agreement with each EU member state and unless those countries want to lose a major trade partner they will agree to it.

Frank Lee Midere

LordNorbury wrote: »

Are you saying Apple isn't the wealthiest MNC on earth? As far as I know it is.

Are you saying they have been paying 2% corporation tax when they came here on the understanding that they would be paying 12.5% tax? Because that is what they have been doing.

Why are you doing the bidding for these people??? You are paying the tax that they are evading! What part of what I'm saying do you disagree with as a fact?

When we made the agreement with Apple they were an also ran. The UK and others weren't so concerned about Apples revenues in 1997. All 2B losses and 2% marketshare. We choose well. They chose finance.

And this isn't about transfer pricing. It's about a special deal with a, then, piddling international company. A mistake maybe but not a deal with a big bully but a deal of mutual benefit to two small players on the world stage. Then at least.

Jim2007

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The scares about loss of jobs are exactly that. Scares. Bedtime stories. The UK will just make a bilateral agreement with each EU member state and unless those countries want to lose a major trade partner they will agree to it.

No they will not! Check the rules of EU membership, the deal will be with the EU or not at all. And I expect after walking out of the EU, it will be an expensive deal.

Scofflaw

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The scares about loss of jobs are exactly that. Scares. Bedtime stories. The UK will just make a bilateral agreement with each EU member state and unless those countries want to lose a major trade partner they will agree to it.

Jim2007 wrote:

No they will not! Check the rules of EU membership, the deal will be with the EU or not at all. And I expect after walking out of the EU, it will be an expensive deal.

That's quite true - the EU makes trade deals as a bloc, negotiated by the Commission, so there will be no bilateral deals for the UK with individual countries.

cordially,
Scofflaw

gallag

How does it feel to live in a country that helps the richest corporate entity in the world avoided paying taxes to its neighbours who have helped keep the lights on in Ireland? its costing European countries billions to make ireland millions ffs.

Godge

gallag wrote: »

How does it feel to live in a country that helps the richest corporate entity in the world avoided paying taxes to its neighbours who have helped keep the lights on in Ireland? its costing European countries billions to make ireland millions ffs.

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2014/09/why-is-apple-case-so-confusing.html

"Essentially, Apple in deciding where to locate its intellectual property Apple has a choice between having profits taxed at 12.5 per cent in Ireland or at zero per cent in the US. It choose zero per cent in the US. Yet, US politicians claim Ireland is the tax haven! "


I don't know, I don't live in the US.:rolleyes:

Scofflaw

Godge wrote: »

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2014/09/why-is-apple-case-so-confusing.html

"Essentially, Apple in deciding where to locate its intellectual property Apple has a choice between having profits taxed at 12.5 per cent in Ireland or at zero per cent in the US. It choose zero per cent in the US. Yet, US politicians claim Ireland is the tax haven! "


I don't know, I don't live in the US.:rolleyes:

Yep - Apple avoids paying US taxes because of US rules that (a) only require payment of tax when the money is transferred to a US company, and (b) classes all companies incorporated elsewhere as non-US, even if everything they do is done in the US, everything they decide is decided in the US, and everything they own was created in the US.

They might want to look at re-thinking that one.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Frank Lee Midere

gallag wrote: »

How does it feel to live in a country that helps the richest corporate entity in the world avoided paying taxes to its neighbours who have helped keep the lights on in Ireland? its costing European countries billions to make ireland millions ffs.

Apple is fully compliant with the tax it owes on it's retail operations across Europe. And we were screwed by Europe during the bust.

Rightwing

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Apple is fully compliant with the tax it owes on it's retail operations across Europe. And we were screwed by Europe during the bust.

We weren't really, They bailed us out.

We were screwed by our own greedy and inept politicians, civil service & regulator