Speed Limits

Safehands

I was driving in Dublin yesterday, from Raheny to O'Connell St and back, a journey of about 5 miles each way. On my way into town I spotted a 'Gatso' speed check van. So on my return journey I kept my speed down, but I wondered what the speed limit actually was. I drove from O'Connell St out through Fairview and down the Howth Road and the first Speed limit sign I saw was in Raheny, next to St Annes Park.
Surely if the authorities want to reduce the incidence of speeding, the first thing they should do is to let us know what the speed limit actually is.

JeffK88

I would imagine it would be 50kph as it would be considered a built up area. I could be wrong but thats what I would go by.

Safehands

JeffK88 wrote: »

I would imagine it would be 50kph as it would be considered a built up area. I could be wrong but thats what I would go by.

That is the point, is it good enough to just Presume a speed limit! I would presume that large portions of the Howth Rd are 60kph, but how do you know? Surely the local authorities should put up signs.
The law says that you must go by the last sign that you have seen. But if my wife asks me to collect her car in Killester and bring it to collect her from town, I will pass no speed limit signs telling me what speed to use. The Howth Road is a wide road, typical of many where the speed limit is 60kph. If I am caught doing 55kph, do I have a case for an appeal?

ardmacha

If you hadn't seen a sign then you had no reason to believe that the speed limit was other than 50Kmh and so had no reason to do more than that speed.

almccabe

I know there is signs in Dublin that quote the speed is 50kmph unless otherwise posted, but yes very much agree its hard to know some times! also I large area in the centre of Dublin has been dropped down to 30kmph now.

L1011

almccabe wrote: »

I know there is signs in Dublin that quote the speed is 50kmph unless otherwise posted, but yes very much agree its hard to know some times! also I large area in the centre of Dublin has been dropped down to 30kmph now.

Those signs are in Dun Laoighaire Rathdown council areas.

In the UK, you are to assume a streetlit road is 30mph unless otherwise stated (including some oddity about how close the streetlights are) and a non-lit dual carriageway is 70mph unless otherwise stated; but I don't think we've the same rules here.

Safehands

almccabe wrote: »

I know there is signs in Dublin that quote the speed is 50kmph unless otherwise posted, but yes very much agree its hard to know some times! also I large area in the centre of Dublin has been dropped down to 30kmph now.

There is a sign in Raheny, on the same Howth Road which states that the limit is 60kph. The point I am making is that the authorities want to reduce the incidence of speeding, which I agree with. They should meet the motorists halfway and put up some signs to inform us what the actual limit is and not have us guessing.

Carawaystick

I don't know how long you've been driving, but there was a big information campaign when the change to metric speedlimits happened.
If you qualified since then, I presume some of your training would have involved finding out the speedlimits in Ireland.

Have you ever driven out of Dublin from Raheney?
Have you ever driven back in? there would have been speedlimit signs entering the 50mkh area....

Should there be speedlimit signs after every junction, for forgetful drivers?

Safehands

Carawaystick wrote: »

I don't know how long you've been driving, but there was a big information campaign when the change to metric speedlimits happened.
If you qualified since then, I presume some of your training would have involved finding out the speedlimits in Ireland.
Have you ever driven out of Dublin from Raheney?
Have you ever driven back in? there would have been speedlimit signs entering the 50mkh area....
Should there be speedlimit signs after every junction, for forgetful drivers?

The point is that if I pick up my car in Killester or any other suburban area there may be NO speed limit signs for many kilometres, either 60kph or 50kph. So I may not pass any. Having one small sign as the limit suddenly changes is not good enough. I may miss it if I'm driving behind a bus or lorry. The traffic may all be moving at 60kph and I may follow suite. But I may be liable to be sent a ticket by any sly Gatsos hanging around. This is about safe driving, not about making cheap points about forgetful drivers. If the authorities are serious about cutting down on speeding, why don't they act responsibly and place speed limit signs every kilometre or so. Train drivers have regular signs reminding them of speed limits along the track, why can't motorists have the same?

vrusinov

[can't post links ] Go to RSA website and download Rules of the road pdf.

Then go to:

Section 8: Speed limits

Page 110-111:

Speed limits on roads

All public roads have speed limits. In most cases, a ‘default’ speed limit applies.
This automatically applies to a particular type of road if there is no speed limit
sign to show otherwise.

120 - Motorway,(Blue Signs - M numbers)
100 - National roads (primary and secondary) (Green Signs - N numbers)
80 - Non-national roads (regional and local) (White Signs - R or L numbers)
50 - Roads in built-up areas, such as cities, towns and boroughs

In other words, if you are not in rural area and not sure what is speed limit, it's 50.

Simple.

L1011

ROTR doesn't always equal the actual law - although the advice is sensible none the less.

vrusinov

I'm not a lawyer so I'm having problems reading this, but it looks like Road Traffic Act, 1961 (again, can't paste link) states

"45.—(1) (a) There shall be a speed limit of thirty miles per hour in respect of all public roads in built-up areas for all mechanically propelled vehicles.

(b) The Minister may, with respect to the limit specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection, by regulations—

(i) increase or reduce it,

(ii) restrict it to particular periods of the day and night."

There are number of amendments but I don't see this section being removed or changed significantly (other than of course changing mph to km/h).

PS: looks like there is no up-to-date text of the law; one supposed to read act from 1961 and then apply dozens of patches to it to get fresh information. Typical law makers.

Safehands

vrusinov wrote: »

I'm not a lawyer so I'm having problems reading this, but it looks like Road Traffic Act, 1961 (again, can't paste link) states

"45.—(1) (a) There shall be a speed limit of thirty miles per hour in respect of all public roads in built-up areas for all mechanically propelled vehicles.

(b) The Minister may, with respect to the limit specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection, by regulations—

(i) increase or reduce it,

(ii) restrict it to particular periods of the day and night."

There are number of amendments but I don't see this section being removed or changed significantly (other than of course changing mph to km/h).

PS: looks like there is no up-to-date text of the law; one supposed to read act from 1961 and then apply dozens of patches to it to get fresh information. Typical law makers.

So in essence, the speed limit can be 50 or 60kph in certain urban areas. The only way we can know accurately, as motorists, is if there are signs on lamp posts. It is a simple move which would probably have the effect of reducing speeds, reducing accidents and saving motorists from getting large fines and unnecessary penalty points.

Effects

Safehands wrote: »

Surely if the authorities want to reduce the incidence of speeding, the first thing they should do is to let us know what the speed limit actually is.

There's plenty of signs along that stretch. You just aren't observant enough.

Victor

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-roads-and-traffic-general-traffic-measures/speed-limits-your-area

The default speed limit for roads within Dublin City Council area is 50km/h.

Most roads within the city boundary have a speed limit of 50 km/h apart from a limited number of roads having speed limits of 30 km/h, 60 km/h or 80 km/h.

Speed limit signs are erected at all points where there is a change of speed limit.

Details of speed limits are given in current Bye-Laws entitled Dublin City Council Special Speed Limit Bye-Laws 2013. These Bye-Laws came into effect on 24th December 2013.

There are links to several documents on that page that you should look at.

For legislation, you need to look at Part 2 of the Road Traffic Act 2004. Amendments to that act are listed here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/isbc/2004.html#a44_2004 but they are mainly administrative.

vrusinov wrote: »

I'm not a lawyer so I'm having problems reading this, but it looks like Road Traffic Act, 1961 (again, can't paste link) states

"45.—(1) (a) There shall be a speed limit of thirty miles per hour in respect of all public roads in built-up areas for all mechanically propelled vehicles.

(b) The Minister may, with respect to the limit specified in paragraph (a) of this subsection, by regulations—

(i) increase or reduce it,

(ii) restrict it to particular periods of the day and night."

There are number of amendments but I don't see this section being removed or changed significantly (other than of course changing mph to km/h).

PS: looks like there is no up-to-date text of the law; one supposed to read act from 1961 and then apply dozens of patches to it to get fresh information. Typical law makers.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=road+traffic+act+restatement&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gws_rd=cr&ei=R-spVM69O4_W7QbuhoDgDg

Safehands

Effects wrote: »

There's plenty of signs along that stretch. You just aren't observant enough.

You sound like a local authority employee! There are indeed plenty of signs but none refer to speed limits.:rolleyes:

ardmacha

Safehands wrote: »

So in essence, the speed limit can be 50 or 60kph in certain urban areas. The only way we can know accurately, as motorists, is if there are signs on lamp posts. It is a simple move which would probably have the effect of reducing speeds, reducing accidents and saving motorists from getting large fines and unnecessary penalty points.

Putting a load of signs on lampposts telling us the limit is 50kmh when we already know perfectly well that it is, would just be visual pollution.

Jhcx

ardmacha wrote: »

Putting a load of signs on lampposts telling us the limit is 50kmh when we already know perfectly well that it is, would just be visual pollution.

But that's the argument. They don't know. Even from the DCC they state roads in Dublin are 50 but certain ones range from 30 - 80. How do we know this road Is 50 and not allowed 60 without the signs. For all you know could be actually 40 or something but no speed signs to clarify on entry to the stretch of road. it's not visual pollution it's knowing the limit. If you drive in the countryside you will come across stretches of road that goes 80,50,60,50,80 there is no consitancy In Ireland unless sign posted.

vrusinov

Oh, so it's called "restatement". Thanks Victor!

How do we know this road Is 50 and not allowed 60 without the signs.

It you don't know what is speed limit, it's 50, there is actually no need for road sign, it's default limit in built-up areas.
Even if it's actually 60, nobody will die if you'll be going 10 km/h slower than limit until you see next sign. It's a _maximim_ allowed speed, not target speed.

Do you propose to put speed signs near every single driveway or every single house?

Safehands

ardmacha wrote: »

Putting a load of signs on lampposts telling us the limit is 50kmh when we already know perfectly well that it is, would just be visual pollution.

speed limit signs are not just for locals. They are for all road users, including tourists.
Maybe that is why we are so badly served with road signs, some bureaucrats probably think that putting up signs is ugly, so we can do with as few as possible.

Safehands

vrusinov wrote: »

Do you propose to put speed signs near every single driveway or every single house?

You've obviously read my postings, particularly the one which suggested that and all the others who agreed, there must be at least a thousand of them!

vrusinov

speed limit signs are not just for locals. They are for all road users, including tourists.

Should we also put "drive on left" signs everywhere because there are tourists?

What I am saying is that there are rules of the road and every road user is supposed to know them (tourist or not). Rules of the road say that speed limit in built-up areas is 50 km/h, unless otherwise stated.
Yes, some people may not know that, but it's not a reason to put tons of signs on lamp posts making a lot of visual noise, just because "what if you are a tourist who just rented a car and there was no speed sign on the exit from the parking garage".

some bureaucrats probably think that putting up signs is ugly, so we can do with as few as possible.

Yes, it's ugly and it's just noise. If there is speed limit sign every 100 meters, and it's always the same you will just ignore it. If you see 50 km/h limit sign every 100 meters, you will just start ignoring it and any other sigh that looks similar.

SeanW

vrusinov wrote: »

It you don't know what is speed limit, it's 50, there is actually no need for road sign, it's default limit in built-up areas.
Even if it's actually 60, nobody will die if you'll be going 10 km/h slower than limit until you see next sign. It's a _maximim_ allowed speed, not target speed.

Indeed, but in many cases the speed limit does not reflect safe driving conditions (may be too high or too low), and where it does reflect safe driving conditions, there is no excuse for going below it. Nor of creating undue confusion - the OP has the very reasonable request that the speed limit be signed. Can't see how that is so much to ask.

Safehands

vrusinov wrote: »

Should we also put "drive on left" signs everywhere because there are tourists?
What I am saying is that there are rules of the road and every road user is supposed to know them (tourist or not). Rules of the road say that speed limit in built-up areas is 50 km/h, unless otherwise stated.
Yes, some people may not know that, but it's not a reason to put tons of signs on lamp posts making a lot of visual noise, just because "what if you are a tourist who just rented a car and there was no speed sign on the exit from the parking garage". Yes, it's ugly and it's just noise. If there is speed limit sign every 100 meters, and it's always the same you will just ignore it. If you see 50 km/h limit sign every 100 meters, you will just start ignoring it and any other sigh that looks similar.

Wow, I see you have relented a little, first it was outside every house, now its every 100mt.
We have "look right" signs at city pedestrian lights, on the ground. Are they ugly too? I suppose you are correct. Why make things easy to understand? It is not part of our culture.
Let's play your little game and suggest we get rid of all road signs, starting with those expensive, ugly red ones that blend in with nothing, with their big letters saying "S T O P". Everyone knows they should stop at junctions, why do you need a sign?

ardmacha

Jhcx wrote: »

But that's the argument. They don't know. Even from the DCC they state roads in Dublin are 50 but certain ones range from 30 - 80. How do we know this road Is 50 and not allowed 60 without the signs. For all you know could be actually 40 or something but no speed signs to clarify on entry to the stretch of road. it's not visual pollution it's knowing the limit. If you drive in the countryside you will come across stretches of road that goes 80,50,60,50,80 there is no consitancy In Ireland unless sign posted.

Of course roads that are 60 should be signed at the point of entrance, and are, including the Howth Road, if there are particular locations where the sign is missing then please contact the council concerned.

Victor

Safehands wrote: »

You sound like a local authority employee!

Constructive posts only please.

Moderator

Carawaystick

Safehands wrote: »

Wow, I see you have relented a little, first it was outside every house, now its every 100mt.
We have "look right" signs at city pedestrian lights, on the ground. Are they ugly too? I suppose you are correct. Why make things easy to understand? It is not part of our culture.
Let's play your little game and suggest we get rid of all road signs, starting with those expensive, ugly red ones that blend in with nothing, with their big letters saying "S T O P". Everyone knows they should stop at junctions, why do you need a sign?

Motorists are either deemed competent by passing tests or are under instruction of a competent person.
There is no requirement for pedestrians so safety messages for pedestrians are a sensible aid, especially where vehicles can only travel one way on a road

There is no need to stop at all junctions, which is why some where you do have to stop at have stop signs

vince

Im confused in n ireland whats the limit on the a1 on the black on white disc. I thought this was 60mph usualy.

Victor

vince wrote: »

Im confused in n ireland whats the limit on the a1 on the black on white disc. I thought this was 60mph usualy.

60mph on single carriageway roads, 70mph on dual carriageways, unless otherwise signed. If there are street lights, you need to presume 30mph unless otherwise signed.

Empire o de Sun

Safehands wrote: »

You sound like a local authority employee! There are indeed plenty of signs but none refer to speed limits.:rolleyes:

There are plenty of speed limit signs on the Howth Road. There are two 60 km/h zones on the Howth Road.

The first is from Sybil Hill (Texaco Garage) to the Garda Retirement Home just outside Raheny village.

The second is from the junction for Maywood/St.Assams to the Coast Road (Dublin Road)

Or do you expect to see a 50 sign once you exit your driveway?

Safehands

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

There are plenty of speed limit signs on the Howth Road. There are two 60 km/h zones on the Howth Road.

The first is from Sybil Hill (Texaco Garage) to the Garda Retirement Home just outside Raheny village.

The second is from the junction for Maywood/St.Assams to the Coast Road (Dublin Road)

Or do you expect to see a 50 sign once you exit your driveway?

The one at Sybil Hill is the first you see from O'Connell St to there. I don't call that plenty of signs, Sorry!

Victor

Safehands wrote: »

The one at Sybil Hill is the first you see from O'Connell St to there. I don't call that plenty of signs, Sorry!

After O'Connell Street, the next ones would be Gardiner Street.