GP visit charges

Clark2014

Can anyone tell me how new doctors fresh of med school are able to charge the same price as a doctor that has been working for 20 years or more ?

I think new doctors should charge 10 or 20 euro less because they do not have the same level of experience as older doctors.

I just don't understand how a new doctor can charge the same price as doctor that has 20 or 30 years experience.

L1011

Private gps can charge what the market will bear. Other countries have similar setups to your proposal, Belgium for one. Allowable fee varies on training there.

There's useless long serving doctors and fantastic new ones though.

Clark2014

MYOB wrote: »

Private gps can charge what the market will bear. Other countries have similar setups to your prop

I think its rip off Ireland again. A visit to the GP should cost no more than 30euro.

L1011

Clark2014 wrote: »

I think its rip off Ireland again. A visit to the GP should cost no more than 30euro.

I've a local GP that does charge that.

If it's 30 max, how much do you want off for a newly qualified GP from that?

Just Like Heaven

Qualified GPs are hardly fresh out of med school.

Clark2014

MYOB wrote: »

I've a local GP that does charge that.

If it's 30 max, how much do you want off for a newly qualified GP from that?

They should charge 30euro instead of 50euro.

L1011

Clark2014 wrote: »

They should charge 30euro instead of 50euro.

But you just said you didn't want any GP to charge more than 30?

Clark2014

MYOB wrote: »

But you just said you didn't want any GP to charge more than 30?

Yes. If it was up to me an experienced GP would get 30euro and a Junior/Rookie GP would get 20euro.

Vorsprung

Clark2014 wrote: »

Yes. If it was up to me an experienced GP would get 30euro and a Junior/Rookie GP would get 20euro.

When would a junior/rookie GP become "experienced"?

Would you apply similar price controls to any other private enterprises?

Nonoperational

Just Like Heaven wrote: »

Qualified GPs are hardly fresh out of med school.

To be fair, GP interns (first year out of college) see patients on their own.

locum-motion

In four posts, you've contradicted yourself twice; that must be some kind of record!

Clark2014 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me how new doctors fresh of med school are able to charge the same price as a doctor that has been working for 20 years or more ?

I think new doctors should charge 10 or 20 euro less because they do not have the same level of experience as older doctors.

I just don't understand how a new doctor can charge the same price as doctor that has 20 or 30 years experience.

Clark2014 wrote: »

I think its rip off Ireland again. A visit to the GP should cost no more than 30euro.

Clark2014 wrote: »

They should charge 30euro instead of 50euro.

Clark2014 wrote: »

Yes. If it was up to me an experienced GP would get 30euro and a Junior/Rookie GP would get 20euro.

Clark2014

Vorsprung wrote: »

When would a junior/rookie GP become "experienced"?

Would you apply similar price controls to any other private enterprises?

Experienced would be about 10 years or more.

Other "enterprises" as you call them are not making life and death decisions.

If a Doctor fails to diagnose someones illness it could cost them their life.

Clark2014

locum-motion wrote: »

In four posts, you've contradicted yourself twice; that must be some kind of record!

I'm saying what I would do if it was up to me. Thats different to what I expect the government to do.

Vorsprung

Nonoperational wrote: »

To be fair, GP interns (first year out of college) see patients on their own.

I understood that patients seen by GP interns were also seen by their training GP? Stand to be corrected on that. I'm fairly sure any script they write has to be cosigned by the training GP.

Gongoozler

What people fail to realise wrt doctors is they are running a business. You're not just paying for their time you're paying for the nurse the administration staff, the rent, the practice manager and bills etc.

Clark2014

Nonoperational wrote: »

To be fair, GP interns (first year out of college) see patients on their own.

Yes and we pay them the same price to see them than a doctor with 30 years experience. Its madness!

gctest50

Clark2014 wrote: »

............................

Other "enterprises" as you call them are not making life and death decisions.

If a Doctor fails to diagnose someones illness it could cost them their life.

yes yes - thats why they deserve/need e50 at least

Clark2014

gctest50 wrote: »

yes yes - thats why they deserve/need e50 at least

In france its only 20euro to see a doctor.

copey

They could know be better then some old out of touch doctors

CIARAN_BOYLE

www.lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/312626/2/doctorspayments2011.pdf

Any doctor in the first 30 pages of the above link loses the right to say they are a private business imo.

locum-motion

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

www.lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/312626/2/doctorspayments2011.pdf

Any doctor in the first 30 pages of the above link loses the right to say they are a private business imo.

Why?

Vorsprung

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

www.lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/312626/2/doctorspayments2011.pdf

Any doctor in the first 30 pages of the above link loses the right to say they are a private business imo.

That list refers to GMS lists - these GPs are contracted by the HSE to provide services to medical card holders.

Completely different to non medical card holders who are charged as private patients, which this thread refers to.

L1011

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

www.lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/312626/2/doctorspayments2011.pdf

Any doctor in the first 30 pages of the above link loses the right to say they are a private business imo.

Any doctor in the first 30 pages is a business - it is impossible to get that level of GMS payment without employing multiple staff. Most on the first page are practices with up to 10 or more GPs per GMS list.

Doctor GMS lists cannot (ridiculously) be awared to a Ltd company unlike a GMS pharmacy contract; hence the need for a name and hence the constant, constant wild assumptions about a GP getting "paid" high six figures.

Clark2014 wrote: »

I'm saying what I would do if it was up to me. Thats different to what I expect the government to do.

You proposed three completely different things - which one are you saying you'd do?

Clark2014 wrote: »

In france its only 20euro to see a doctor.

Subsidised, public system. We don't have one.

Clark2014

MYOB wrote: »

GMS list.

Doctor GMS lists cannot (ridiculously) be awared to a Ltd company unlike a GMS pharmacy contract; hence the need for a name and hence the constant, constant wild assumptions about a GP getting "paid" high six figures.

There was a recent report that said the average salary of a GP was 140k but back in the boom it was 190k. So assuming they are on six figures would be a safe enough bet.

Kristopherus

Nonoperational wrote: »

To be fair, GP interns (first year out of college) see patients on their own.

Newly-qualified doctors do not see patients on their own in their first year out of college. They work in a hospital setting under close supervision for at least the first 12 months. They are assigned to the Medical or Surgical Depts in that first year. After that the have to work in a Paediatric Unit, and also the Obstetric/Gynae before they undertake their GP training.

gctest50

Clark2014 wrote: »

In france its only 20euro to see a doctor.

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/gas-prices/20142:Venezuela:EUR:l

aaaaand...... fuel is 1c a litre in Venezuela

Clark2014

gctest50 wrote: »

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/gas-prices/20142:Venezuela:EUR:l

aaaaand...... fuel is 1c a litre in Venezuela

Venezuela is not in the EU or a EURO member. So the comparison with france is valid.

gctest50

Clark2014 wrote: »

Venezuela is not in the EU or a EURO member. So the comparison with france is valid.

so - we are waaaay off the reality ski-jump and into the pointless forest again

the point i was making is you can't just cherry pick things ftom other countries

eg: go up the North and youve better roads and broadband

beer can be about 9euro a go in Paris and elsewhere - will that do ?

Taco Chips

Clark2014 wrote: »

Venezuela is not in the EU or a EURO member. So the comparison with france is valid.

There are many differences between the Irish and the French healthcare system that make a similar comparison between GPs invalid. Why would just being in the EU make them similar?

eyescreamcone

I'd expect to pay a GP more than a washing machine repair man, wouldn't you??

Icemancometh

Kristopherus wrote: »

Newly-qualified doctors do not see patients on their own in their first year out of college. They work in a hospital setting under close supervision for at least the first 12 months. They are assigned to the Medical or Surgical Depts in that first year. After that the have to work in a Paediatric Unit, and also the Obstetric/Gynae before they undertake their GP training.

There's a small number of intern placements in GP practices, only for the past few years. Did one myself. And Vorsprung had it right; every consult had to be run by a fully qualified GP.

Clark2014

eyescreamcone wrote: »

I'd expect to pay a GP more than a washing machine repair man, wouldn't you??

A washing machine repair man would probably be a lot longer in your house than 5 minutes.

Clark2014

Icemancometh wrote: »

There's a small number of intern placements in GP practices,

In the clinic I go to more than half the GPs there are interns.

the_syco

Clark2014 wrote: »

In france its only 20euro to see a doctor.

How much is insurance, rent, and utilities in France? Also, are they subsidised by the government, is it €20 everywhere or just one place? So many factors!

Icemancometh

Clark2014 wrote: »

In the clinic I go to more than half the GPs there are interns.

Impossible. You may be confusing interns with GP registrars, who are on a training scheme, and have several years experience. Even at that, each registrar must have one trainer in the practice, so at most, registrars could only make up half the practice.

quadrifoglio verde

Clark2014 wrote: »

There was a recent report that said the average salary of a GP was 140k but back in the boom it was 190k. So assuming they are on six figures would be a safe enough bet.

They've spent 6 years studying in college, followed by plenty more years training following college in order to be a gp. You can't just finish up in ucd after 6 years and become a gp, it's a fairly long path, most will have spent 4 or 5 years working in hospitals, then two years working in a gp surgery before they can become a gp.
What should a gp earn as an average salary, considering the amount of training they must do? The same as a bin man?

Also I've bad news for you....as a private patient, due to the low levels of pay received from the state for the bulk of their patients (gms fees are ****e) your subsidising the gms scheme even further.

Lucas Castroman

Why is there such generalized resentment towards doctors? It seems to be a recurring theme. As noted already, people will shell out similar amounts on other services such as hairdressers, taxi-drivers, mechanics, plumbers etc without batting an eyelid. Why shouldn't hard working highly educated people expect to be well paid for doing a responsible job? My advice to the OP is like it or lump it.

Clark2014

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

They've spent 6 years studying in college, followed by plenty more years training following college in order to be a gp. You can't just finish up in ucd after 6 years and become a gp, it's a fairly long path, most will have spent 4 or 5 years working in hospitals, then two years working in a gp surgery before they can become a gp.
What should a gp earn as an average salary, considering the amount of training they must do? The same as a bin man?

I just said what they were getting paid I didnt say whether it was right or wrong.

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Also I've bad news for you....as a private patient, due to the low levels of pay received from the state for the bulk of their patients (gms fees are ****e) your subsidising the gms scheme even further.

I'm not sure what your point is here ?

Vorsprung

Lucas Castroman wrote: »

Why is there such generalized resentment towards doctors? It seems to be a recurring theme. As noted already, people will shell out similar amounts on other services such as hairdressers, taxi-drivers, mechanics, plumbers etc without batting an eyelid. Why shouldn't hard working highly educated people expect to be well paid for doing a responsible job? My advice to the OP is like it or lump it.

Agree with the first bit but many people would consider healthcare provision to be a basic right, I would share a similar view and I also think there should be minimal cost to the patient. However some people object to paying those who will provide it. Completely non sensical stuff.

Nomis21

Clark2014 wrote: »

In france its only 20euro to see a doctor.

Yes but its at least 20 euro each way on Ryanair. Not worth it.

his_dudeness

Clark2014 wrote: »

Experienced would be about 10 years or more.

Other "enterprises" as you call them are not making life and death decisions.

If a Doctor fails to diagnose someones illness it could cost them their life.

If a mechanic fails to fix your car properly, you could crash and die. Yet I've never been told if my mechanic is "experienced" or not.

Clark2014 wrote: »

In the clinic I go to more than half the GPs there are interns.

Wrong. As Icemancometh pointed out, there are a select number of GP intern places in the country, each with an assigned trainer. There may also be a GP registrar, who as has already been pointed out, is much more experienced than the GP intern.

Clark2014 wrote: »

Yes and we pay them the same price to see them than a doctor with 30 years experience. Its madness!

You don't pay the intern GP anything. All interns, and GP registrars for that matter too, are paid salaried rates by the HSE. Their annual salaries are freely available on the HSE website. But as a guide, GP interns roughly earn €15 PER HOUR, and GP registrars maybe €21 or €22 per hour. So by your plan, you'd actually be giving them a massive pay increase.....

Lucas Castroman

Vorsprung wrote: »

Agree with the first bit but many people would consider healthcare provision to be a basic right, I would share a similar view and I also think there should be minimal cost to the patient. However some people object to paying those who will provide it. Completely non sensical stuff.

Well that's partly why the health service is crap. Nearly half the population have medical cards - they expect amazing healthcare yet are unwilling to contribute anything to this end. It's a fine lofty notion that healthcare is a basic right but somebody has to pay for it.

his_dudeness

Vorsprung wrote: »

Agree with the first bit but many people would consider healthcare provision to be a basic right, I would share a similar view and I also think there should be minimal cost to the patient. However some people object to paying those who will provide it. Completely non sensical stuff.

Health care is a basic right, as laid down in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 25:

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Nowhere in there, thankfully, does it say healthcare has to be free.

Clark2014

Lucas Castroman wrote: »

Well that's partly why the health service is crap. Nearly half the population have medical cards - they expect amazing healthcare yet are unwilling to contribute anything to this end. It's a fine lofty notion that healthcare is a basic right but somebody has to pay for it.

20 plus Billion in taxes should be more than enough to pay for health care.

his_dudeness

Clark2014 wrote: »

20 plus Billion in taxes should be more than enough to pay for health care.

Any more than 10% of a budget going on health is considered bad planning - can't remember if thats from the EU or OECD.

We're currently around 11% and trying to get down to 8 or 9%.

By comparison, the Dutch model of universal health insurance, which has been proposed for Ireland, has seen their spending increase to nearly 15%.

Lucas Castroman

Clark2014 wrote: »

20 plus Billion in taxes should be more than enough to pay for health care.

Clearly it isn't or I suppose it's all due to mismanagement. We spend another 20 billion on social welfare. Carrying the burden of half the population drags down the rest. Just because some foolish socialist like Mary Robinson decides something is a human right doesn't make it workable. Why should I bother going to work in the morning if I'm already entitled to everything - a house, healthcare etc.

Clark2014

Lucas Castroman wrote: »

Clearly it isn't or I suppose it's all due to mismanagement. We spend another 20 billion on social welfare. Carrying the burden of half the population drags down the rest. Just because some foolish socialist like Mary Robinson decides something is a human right doesn't make it workable. Why should I bother going to work in the morning if I'm already entitled to everything - a house, healthcare etc.

So Mary Robinson is responsible for the problems in our health service ?

Robroy36

Our health service is not under funded, the money we have is spent inappropriately. Mis-management by the HSE is the primary cause of our problems. The political agendas of the various ministers of health and their colleagues in combination with inept management on the ground leaves me wondering how the health service is not actually in a bigger mess than it currently is.

As a former healthcare professional I can personally attest that there are small number of people at the top absolutely creaming it - just like most professions I can think of. GP's in on the whole make a very comfortable living but the ones I know are not driving around in Ferrari's from the their town houses in D4 to their country manors at the weekend. They are highly qualified and respected professionals - the 140K salary you mentioned seems entirely reasonable to me.

As has been mentioned in this thread Clark2014 GP's are business's, they provide services to you at an agreed price and also to the state as part of a contract. The price you pay is the price that has been set by the market. There have been a couple of ventures that with very aggressive pricing structures that are in the process of going to the wall, indicating that the 40-60 euro fee is the "sweetspot". The simple fact is healthcare is expensive, if you don't want to pay it at the point of care be prepared to pay it either indirectly by way of increased tax on your income or by a significant reduction in the availability and quality of care. I would argue that it is more efficient to suck it up and pay the €60 fee occasionally (rarely, hopefully!) rather than have an extra couple of percent added on your income tax then have it inefficiently funneled through a myriad of state agencies before it finally reaches the GP's practice.

eyescreamcone

Clark2014 wrote: »

A washing machine repair man would probably be a lot longer in your house than 5 minutes.

I didn't know that there was time limits for GP visits or washing machine repairmen.

Being a doctor is a serious job.
To attract the top people we need to pay accordingly.

People in Ireland often complain that €50 is too much for a GP visit - these people will have no problem coughing up for Sky TV or a night on the razz at the weekend.

A self employed doctor has no financial responsibility to charge what Joe Public thinks is appropriate.
His only responsibility is to be a good doctor to the public.
Financially he can charge as much as he wants.
If people don't like the price then they can vote with their feet - as per any other service.

I would be 100% against the government regulating prices for any service supplied by self-employed.

Clark2014

eyescreamcone wrote: »

I didn't know that there was time limits for GP visits or washing machine repairmen.

Being a doctor is a serious job.
To attract the top people we need to pay accordingly.

People in Ireland often complain that €50 is too much for a GP visit - these people will have no problem coughing up for Sky TV or a night on the razz at the weekend.

A self employed doctor has no financial responsibility to charge what Joe Public thinks is appropriate.
His only responsibility is to be a good doctor to the public.
Financially he can charge as much as he wants.
If people don't like the price then they can vote with their feet - as per any other service.

I would be 100% against the government regulating prices for any service supplied by self-employed.

Its not like other services if your sick you have no choice but to go the doctor.

eyescreamcone

Clark2014 wrote: »

Its not like other services if your sick you have no choice but to go the doctor.

You can go to any doctor that you can afford.