Scotch Blackface Ram Sale

scotchman

On Friday there will be a sale in Dungarvan, Co Waterford of Perth Type blackface. Just wondering is there many Blackface breeders on this forum and what do you think of the breed

foxylock

scotchman wrote: »

On Friday there will be a sale in Dungarvan, Co Waterford of Perth Type blackface. Just wondering is there many Blackface breeders on this forum and what do you think of the breed

I have blackface mostly Perth type with a few lanark some swaledales also. They good and hardy unfortunately when you bring them to the mart you come home disappointed with prices. Bred some hiltex this year and a major improvement in prices also putting in a lleyn ram this year for a few replacements.

dglhills

All my ewes are Perth/Donegal type blackface, one thing always kinda interested me is what is a breeder? Does the fact that I'm not into showing or selling tups exclude me from that category? I think they are great sheep and very hardy, I farm a hard hill and they are excellent foragers, I cross with a texel to sell stores and finish some aswell.

solerina

In general blackface sheep are very hardy but we find from experience that the Mayo and Dingle bred sheep are far stronger than those from the Dungarvan sale and tend to live longer on exposed hills.

scotchman

Thanks for the insight. Mayo and Dingle sheep are very popular in their own area but unfortunately from my experience have little appeal around the country. The black in the wool would be a no no. Lanarks seem to be very popular at the moment but I prefer the long wool Perth Type myself. The wool is gone very short and tight apart from scotch on the Comeragh Mountains in Dungarvan which are well exposed to the sea.

foxylock

scotchman wrote: »

Thanks for the insight. Mayo and Dingle sheep are very popular in their own area but unfortunately from my experience have little appeal around the country. The black in the wool would be a no no. Lanarks seem to be very popular at the moment but I prefer the long wool Perth Type myself. The wool is gone very short and tight apart from scotch on the Comeragh Mountains in Dungarvan which are well exposed to the sea.

would you consider the blackface swaledale cross. Fantastic sheep could live on a damp rock!!

razor8

foxylock wrote: »

would you consider the blackface swaledale cross. Fantastic sheep could live on a damp rock!!

Only had one season out of swale/lanark crosses this year and hugely impressed

foxylock

razor8 wrote: »

Only had one season out of swale/lanark crosses this year and hugely impressed

IMO you get the benefits of hybrid vigour. I'm a big fan of the swaledale but they can be a bit bony however crossed onto blackface you have some sheep. Anyone keep herdwicks. Would love to try some on the hill

AntrimGlens

foxylock wrote: »

Anyone keep herdwicks. Would love to try some on the hill

Visited a few men in the lake district that ran large flocks of herdwicks on the fells, but they were only really suitable for there. Couple of issues i see with them is they have a low prolificacy rate, averaging about 1.1 lambs, they produce a very light lamb and are hard to flesh and their wool is very poor for textiles thus paid pittance for it.
Great hardy sheep otherwise, but I hate sheep with long tails.
Regarding the Blackface, a lot of the scotch/perth type ewes up here are gone very soft of themselves, they've been breeding them for noses, horns and tight skins which is not the true Perth ewe. Too much lanark influence.

foxylock

AntrimGlens wrote: »

Visited a few men in the lake district that ran large flocks of herdwicks on the fells, but they were only really suitable for there. Couple of issues i see with them is they have a low prolificacy rate, averaging about 1.1 lambs, they produce a very light lamb and are hard to flesh and their wool is very poor for textiles thus paid pittance for it.
Great hardy sheep otherwise, but I hate sheep with long tails.
Regarding the Blackface, a lot of the scotch/perth type ewes up here are gone very soft of themselves, they've been breeding them for noses, horns and tight skins which is not the true Perth ewe. Too much lanark influence.

could the answer be in your post
....... A blackface Hardwick cross. What would you call it ??

AntrimGlens

A Herdface... pronounced hardface - just like some of the owners.:)

foxylock

AntrimGlens wrote: »

A Herdface... pronounced hardface - just like some of the owners.:)

better than a blackwick i suppose 😲

HillFarmer

I've bought a few Rams from Dungarvan over the years and every one of them went lame shortly after.

It could be just my luck but I think they are just show Rams and melt away if put on a Kerry Hill.

They are fine big Rams to look at which made me go back again but I had the same issue.

scotchman

That was unlucky.I find with any breed of ram I bought from a Premier sale that if you dont feed them off gradually its a wicked shock to the system. If you buy a ram of any breed that has been prepared for months for a sale and then you just throw him out the field/mountain with no feeding then they are bound to melt a bit. I would give them a small bit of feeding and gradually get them off the food with out causing them to melt. Thats what has been successful for me and my rams have lasted their time. Simple things like this help in getting value out of a ram. Some guys dont feed nothing and then they wonder why they have nothing.

foxylock

scotchman wrote: »

That was unlucky.I find with any breed of ram I bought from a Premier sale that if you dont feed them off gradually its a wicked shock to the system. If you buy a ram of any breed that has been prepared for months for a sale and then you just throw him out the field/mountain with no feeding then they are bound to melt a bit. I would give them a small bit of feeding and gradually get them off the food with out causing them to melt. Thats what has been successful for me and my rams have lasted their time. Simple things like this help in getting value out of a ram. Some guys dont feed nothing and then they wonder why they have nothing.

+1 you can't expect a ram to go from a bucket of meal a day to nothing and not lose condition and then tip a hundred ewes as well

solerina

HillFarmer wrote: »

I've bought a few Rams from Dungarvan over the years and every one of them went lame shortly after.

It could be just my luck but I think they are just show Rams and melt away if put on a Kerry Hill.

They are fine big Rams to look at which made me go back again but I had the same issue.

As I mentioned above we have had many Dungarvan rams over the years (we are far closer to Dungarvan than either Dingle or Mayo) but they have consistently had problems....bad feet, don't thrive, don't live out on the hill etc. As for the issue of black wool on the Mayo or Dingle...we raise our sheep to sell them to the mart/factory and the wool doesn't matter to the dead weight of the sheep...in fact the Mayo/Dingle cross would weigh much heavier than the Dungarvan type lambs imo (we cross with Lanark or Swaledale).

scotchman

solerina wrote: »

As I mentioned above we have had many Dungarvan rams over the years (we are far closer to Dungarvan than either Dingle or Mayo) but they have consistently had problems....bad feet, don't thrive, don't live out on the hill etc. As for the issue of black wool on the Mayo or Dingle...we raise our sheep to sell them to the mart/factory and the wool doesn't matter to the dead weight of the sheep...in fact the Mayo/Dingle cross would weigh much heavier than the Dungarvan type lambs imo (we cross with Lanark or Swaledale).

As I said all rams coming out of Premier Sale no matter what breed having been prepared for months can hardly be expected not to melt when feeding has seized immediately and put out with a hundred ewes on a Hill. Rams have to be helped and feeding decreased over a space of time. Its hardly fair to expect a ram to look the same when his new owner decides not to wean him off feeding and throws him out on paddock full of rocks. Its abit like asking a man to go block laying and he only been fed on salads everyday. Some people expect too much of rams.

Username John

scotchman wrote: »

As I said all rams coming out of Premier Sale no matter what breed having been prepared for months can hardly be expected not to melt when feeding has seized immediately and put out with a hundred ewes on a Hill. Rams have to be helped and feeding decreased over a space of time. Its hardly fair to expect a ram to look the same when his new owner decides not to wean him off feeding and throws him out on paddock full of rocks. Its abit like asking a man to go block laying and he only been fed on salads everyday. Some people expect too much of rams.

Interesting...

How long would you say is a "space of time" Its the end of Sept now, when do lads put rams with ewes on the hill? Is there sufficient time to "wean" the rams (off the ration?)

I only have lowland sheep, so maybe I'm used to softness

But reading your comment above, it make me think that even highland breeds should be treated like lowland when first bought, which surprises me a bit...
Lets say a Hogget Scotch ram - how much hill would they actually have seen? If they are being fed ration for months, you would think not much? (Or maybe I took you up wrong above, when you said "prepared for months?")

solerina

scotchman wrote: »

As I said all rams coming out of Premier Sale no matter what breed having been prepared for months can hardly be expected not to melt when feeding has seized immediately and put out with a hundred ewes on a Hill. Rams have to be helped and feeding decreased over a space of time. Its hardly fair to expect a ram to look the same when his new owner decides not to wean him off feeding and throws him out on paddock full of rocks. Its abit like asking a man to go block laying and he only been fed on salads everyday. Some people expect too much of rams.

I agree that the rams will all melt away after buying them from a sale and putting them out with the ewes, however we have found that those coming from Dungarvan are much 'softer' than their counterparts from the west....and have far more problems and take far more care (even the Dungarvan bred ewes cause more problems at lambing) We have also found that they breed a less hardier lamb. In recent years we have stopped buying Dungarvan rams and have less and less problems year on year. That's just our experience with our flock.....

scotchman

solerina wrote: »

I agree that the rams will all melt away after buying them from a sale and putting them out with the ewes, however we have found that those coming from Dungarvan are much 'softer' than their counterparts from the west....and have far more problems and take far more care (even the Dungarvan bred ewes cause more problems at lambing) We have also found that they breed a less hardier lamb. In recent years we have stopped buying Dungarvan rams and have less and less problems year on year. That's just our experience with our flock.....

I am sorry you had bad experiences. I have purchased unlucky sheep in Kenmare & Milltown etc in the past but has not made be blame a certain area or it has not stopped me from ever buying a sheep there again. It may make me think twice about the breeder I bought the ram off but there is usually reasons why things such as lameness happens while on the new owners farm. An example would be a new ram would be put in a field of aged rams and acquiring a shoulder or lower joint injury from fighting the older guys. A ram could get a prod in the foot. There are so many reasons. 90% of the time its Management and decisions taken that can attribute to things. The words Hardiness and softness are very often used by certain farmers who don't want to accept that they could of did things different and prevent things from happening.

tomwaterford

scotchman wrote: »

Thanks for the insight. Mayo and Dingle sheep are very popular in their own area but unfortunately from my experience have little appeal around the country. The black in the wool would be a no no. Lanarks seem to be very popular at the moment but I prefer the long wool Perth Type myself. The wool is gone very short and tight apart from scotch on the Comeragh Mountains in Dungarvan which are well exposed to the sea.

:pac::pac:
sure there miles from the sea??

solerina wrote: »

As I mentioned above we have had many Dungarvan rams over the years (we are far closer to Dungarvan than either Dingle or Mayo) but they have consistently had problems....bad feet, don't thrive, don't live out on the hill etc. As for the issue of black wool on the Mayo or Dingle...we raise our sheep to sell them to the mart/factory and the wool doesn't matter to the dead weight of the sheep...in fact the Mayo/Dingle cross would weigh much heavier than the Dungarvan type lambs imo (we cross with Lanark or Swaledale).

well the sale is on Friday....il be there as an interested spectator...might buy few ewe lambs...il see on the price

that being said....it was a man who deos sell at that sale said to mee along number of years ago
''these rams they be looking at there feet,there wool,there horns(on the head:p)...but there no word on the actual lambs they will produce''


though I taught I was told a few years ago they were going down the sheepplus/stars route...did they ever go there??

scotchman

tomwaterford wrote: »

:pac::pac:
sure there miles from the sea??




well the sale is on Friday....il be there as an interested spectator...might buy few ewe lambs...il see on the price

that being said....it was a man who deos sell at that sale said to mee along number of years ago
''these rams they be looking at there feet,there wool,there horns(on the head:p)...but there no word on the actual lambs they will produce''


though I taught I was told a few years ago they were going down the sheepplus/stars route...did they ever go there??

Miles?? As the Crow Flies they are no distance from the Sea and when you climb them there's nothing but blue sea. If you are there in the winter the mountain catches the sea fog.Have a look at google images to refresh your memory for Friday..ha ha

tomwaterford

scotchman wrote: »

Miles?? As the Crow Flies they are no distance from the Sea and when you climb them there's nothing but blue sea. If you are there in the winter the mountain catches the sea fog.Have a look at google images to refresh your memory for Friday..ha ha

its five miles from kilrossanty (generally accepted as start of mountain) to stradbally on the cost (roughly straight line from kilrossanty)

to say it is no distance from the sea is a little deceptive IMO
anytime ive ever climbed them around the mahon falls etc...there is a hell of lot of green between them and the sea


il be there Friday...look out for someone tweeting:D

solerina

scotchman wrote: »

I am sorry you had bad experiences. I have purchased unlucky sheep in Kenmare & Milltown etc in the past but has not made be blame a certain area or it has not stopped me from ever buying a sheep there again. It may make me think twice about the breeder I bought the ram off but there is usually reasons why things such as lameness happens while on the new owners farm. An example would be a new ram would be put in a field of aged rams and acquiring a shoulder or lower joint injury from fighting the older guys. A ram could get a prod in the foot. There are so many reasons. 90% of the time its Management and decisions taken that can attribute to things. The words Hardiness and softness are very often used by certain farmers who don't want to accept that they could of did things different and prevent things from happening.

I can see what you mean but to me hardiness is a ram who lives and produces decent lambs....softness is one that is regularly lame/sick/dies in a relatively short period of time and produces less live lambs....We don't do anything differently depending on the breed of ram we are dealing with...we just find certain 'hill' breeds thrive on little or nothing while others need a lot of care.

scotchman

tomwaterford wrote: »

its five miles from kilrossanty (generally accepted as start of mountain) to stradbally on the cost (roughly straight line from kilrossanty)

to say it is no distance from the sea is a little deceptive IMO
anytime ive ever climbed them around the mahon falls etc...there is a hell of lot of green between them and the sea


il be there Friday...look out for someone tweeting:D

tomwaterford wrote: »

its five miles from kilrossanty (generally accepted as start of mountain) to stradbally on the cost (roughly straight line from kilrossanty)

to say it is no distance from the sea is a little deceptive IMO
anytime ive ever climbed them around the mahon falls etc...there is a hell of lot of green between them and the sea


il be there Friday...look out for someone tweeting:D

tomwaterford wrote: »

its five miles from kilrossanty (generally accepted as start of mountain) to stradbally on the cost (roughly straight line from kilrossanty)

to say it is no distance from the sea is a little deceptive IMO
anytime ive ever climbed them around the mahon falls etc...there is a hell of lot of green between them and the sea


il be there Friday...look out for someone tweeting:D

Hi Tom, When you are there in the winter as I said the sea fog comes into the mountains. The Seagulls don't think they are far because they are always in the way Plus the part which I have climbed over looking dungarvan harbour on the Colligan, Kilbrien side does not have much green in between. I dont think I was deceptive 3 to 5 miles away from harbour depending which side your on.

Anyway hope you spend lots ..ha ha


Hi Solerina ... My point regarding Hardiness was just people who buy a show quality scotch ram and then expecting them not to melt when they throw them out the mountain with no feeding and then blame a place where they bought the ram rather than the decision to buy a show ram for the hill. That's what i find annoying. The same people go and buy ram lambs in Donegal and don't feed them and then they wonder why their hogget ram is stunted and small the next year.. If a fellow puts a ram out the hill then Quality and looks doesn't come in to it . Sure anything will do.. Anyway that's my thinking whether i am right or wrong

ganmo

I did hear somethin about scotchy breeders going down the euro star route. Not sure which society it is(one or more).

dglhills

It's a pity this has turned into one sub breed v's the other. And why one is 'terrible'. It's different strokes for different folks. If looking after a ram is not an option buying at a breeders sale isn't either. Regardless of the breed. Hill breeds like all adapt to their surroundings for example my Perth type ewes are small compared to those offered for sale at breeders sales maybe 15-20 kg less, but they will survive anywhere, whereas the big field ewe/lamb/ram/hogget will go back considerably if hushed out of the trailer onto a hill and waved off.

Connemara Farmer

I would expect inland and SE hills will experience much kinder weather than hills on the Atlantic coast in general. That will inevitably lead to breed differences due to local circumstances.

HillFarmer

Am enjoying this thread topic.

In my instance the first year I was new enough to sheep farming and bought 2 rams at that sale. Both were placed, not first but they cost around 4 to 500 each that day. In fairness they were smashers to look at. I came home happy out.

I didn't leave them out with ewes when I brought them back, put them into a 4 acre field that to be fair was fairly wet at the time if I remember right. I didn't give them any nuts though but they did have plenty of grass, so maybe twas my own fault.

After about 2 weeks both were lame. Still got a few ewe lambs off them but the Rams were nearly always lame.

Went back 2 years later again and bought 1, same crack. Maybe if I hand feeded them for a while after but I wasn't living close by.

foxylock

Personally I reckon most rams you buy are fed to the gills. So maybe prudence on the part of the buyer would be to buy early and gradually wean off the feed . This year i will cross breed the entire flock so will feed rams until they go to work. Systems differ people judge....

razor8

It looks like even the hill breeds are now bred for the show ring which is disappointing. Farmers really need to get their heads around looking at a pretty show ram v a grass fed ram that is lighter to look at but has an equal or superior genetic makeup but won’t melt because it hasn’t been stuffed with meal and mollycoddled
Rams that are fed meal from birth develop a small stomach as they don’t require as much volume of feed due to its high feed valve. When they are let out into a field there stomachs are not big enough to feed themselves and hence they melt away, eventually their stomachs will enlarge if they haven’t died before that stage!

Connemara Farmer

razor8 wrote: »

It looks like even the hill breeds are now bred for the show ring which is disappointing. Farmers really need to get their heads around looking at a pretty show ram v a grass fed ram that is lighter to look at but has an equal or superior genetic makeup but won’t melt because it hasn’t been stuffed with meal and mollycoddled
Rams that are fed meal from birth develop a small stomach as they don’t require as much volume of feed due to its high feed valve. When they are let out into a field there stomachs are not big enough to feed themselves and hence they melt away, eventually their stomachs will enlarge if they haven’t died before that stage!

SFA being done with genetics and hill sheep. Very, very, very unfortunately IMO. But, the lads who're feeding rams to the gills and telling the buyer he came straight off the hill would be just as honest putting in info to Sheep Ireland.

dglhills

razor8 wrote: »

It looks like even the hill breeds are now bred for the show ring which is disappointing. Farmers really need to get their heads around looking at a pretty show ram v a grass fed ram that is lighter to look at but has an equal or superior genetic makeup but won’t melt because it hasn’t been stuffed with meal and mollycoddled
Rams that are fed meal from birth develop a small stomach as they don’t require as much volume of feed due to its high feed valve. When they are let out into a field there stomachs are not big enough to feed themselves and hence they melt away, eventually their stomachs will enlarge if they haven’t died before that stage!

Everything is bred for the show ring unless its explicitly stated its not look at cattle even, some of the biggest breeders of upland cattle like dexter, galloway etc dont have a hill in sight of their farms never mind out winter the cattle and the very same goes for blackface sheep. And until performance recording is embraced for blackface sheep it will remain the same. As a hill farmer all one can do is make informed decisions about what to buy to improve certain traits in your flock like bone, topline etc. and breed what you like. Any one I know who puts the ram on the hill and forgets about them breeds their own as they know it wont melt. I am seriously considering buying a Lanark ram this year as they seem to have good bone and are supposedly easier fleshed, the only thing I cannot reconcile in my head is all the black that you see in the ewes. I would love someone to explain to me the benefits of Lanark over Perth other than looks, is there a valid commercial reason?

razor8

dglhills wrote: »

Everything is bred for the show ring unless its explicitly stated its not look at cattle even, some of the biggest breeders of upland cattle like dexter, galloway etc dont have a hill in sight of their farms never mind out winter the cattle and the very same goes for blackface sheep. And until performance recording is embraced for blackface sheep it will remain the same. As a hill farmer all one can do is make informed decisions about what to buy to improve certain traits in your flock like bone, topline etc. and breed what you like. Any one I know who puts the ram on the hill and forgets about them breeds their own as they know it wont melt. I am seriously considering buying a Lanark ram this year as they seem to have good bone and are supposedly easier fleshed, the only thing I cannot reconcile in my head is all the black that you see in the ewes. I would love someone to explain to me the benefits of Lanark over Perth other than looks, is there a valid commercial reason?

there is a minority of breeders that are moving away from the show ring and breeding for the commercial farmer who mostly sell from the farm. its up to the farmer to determine if he is breeding to a level that suits your own farm. i think you will see a rapid shift in this direction as farmers have been stung too often at the big sales

Cran

razor8 wrote: »

there is a minority of breeders that are moving away from the show ring and breeding for the commercial farmer who mostly sell from the farm. its up to the farmer to determine if he is breeding to a level that suits your own farm. i think you will see a rapid shift in this direction as farmers have been stung too often at the big sales

I'm not sure its about moving away from the show ring, maybe its time the show ring changed. Not completly but slightly, especially at sales and bring in new classes something more relevant to farmers.
I'd like to see industry people who are non breeders judging different class types at our sales, rather than just breeders tbh.

Lano Lynn

so many of the 'good breeders' are just great feeders.

'ah sure he would be a good sheep if he was fed'??????????

.......but feel sorry for guys not getting a fair price for genuine sheep while an over fed lump often with obvious physical defects get the ribbion and the loot...

cannot figure out why breed improvement is not more rapid in hill sheep in that far less breeding rams produced/retained and higher cull rate on females vs lowland cosseted pets?

Connemara Farmer

Lano Lynn wrote: »

so many of the 'good breeders' are just great feeders.

'ah sure he would be a good sheep if he was fed'??????????

.......but feel sorry for guys not getting a fair price for genuine sheep while an over fed lump often with obvious physical defects get the ribbion and the loot...

cannot figure out why breed improvement is not more rapid in hill sheep in that far less breeding rams produced/retained and higher cull rate on females vs lowland cosseted pets?

Because a lot of the lads doing the breeding now would get found out. All they're interested in is in cashing in.

tomwaterford

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Because a lot of the lads doing the breeding now would get found out. All they're interested in is in cashing in.

or else winning the much coveted cup in dungarvan.:pac:...was talking to a lad this evening about it

Connemara Farmer

tomwaterford wrote: »

or else winning the much coveted cup in dungarvan.:pac:...was talking to a lad this evening about it

Yeah bragging rights more important than the guy who buys the ram. Remember Dad buying the first prize winner in Westport on year, he went downhill fast and Dad would be a man to look after stock, fed each day with ewes etc. They must've had him loaded on something.

scotchman

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

Yeah bragging rights more important than the guy who buys the ram.

To give Dungarvan some credit I believe there will be a Draw held for the purchasers with prizes given which is a nice gesture. Something other sales/societys don't bother with.

Username John

scotchman wrote: »

To give Dungarvan some credit I believe there will be a Draw held for the purchasers with prizes given which is a nice gesture. Something other sales/societys don't bother with.

He he - will one of the prizes be a few bags of ration and a rain jacket - to keep the poor ram alive for the first few months...
While they are acclimatising to their new harsh outdoor conditions of course...

scotchman

Username John wrote: »

He he - will one of the prizes be a few bags of ration and a rain jacket - to keep the poor ram alive for the first few months...
While they are acclimatising to their new harsh outdoor conditions of course...

No I don't think its that... I think there is a prize for experts who buy nothing. They get petrol money for the car and a free meal for not buying anything and a Thank you card for going there

razor8

scotchman wrote: »

No I don't think its that... I think there is a prize for experts who buy nothing. They get petrol money for the car and a free meal for not buying anything and a Thank you card for going there

How do you feed your own rams pre sale?

scotchman

razor8 wrote: »

How do you feed your own rams pre sale?

There is 2 choices. Feed on grass only which then you would have a stunted ribby ram that will net you €100 euro or feed a ram worth feeding and increase your chances of profiting favorably.

razor8

scotchman wrote: »

There is 2 choices. Feed on grass only which then you would have a stunted ribby ram that will net you €100 euro or feed a ram worth feeding and increase your chances of profiting favorably.

I don't get why you think because a lamb is grass fed only he will be stunted, surely not

scotchman

razor8 wrote: »

I don't get why you think because a lamb is grass fed only he will be stunted, surely not

I am not saying a grass fed sheep is no good. I am saying a grass fed sheep will not grow and mature the same way as a sheep that is fed. Thats all. Its a bit like a child in Africa living on berries and fruit and a child from London who gets his dinner everyday. The child from Africa will never look as big and strong as the fed child from London. Its just the way it is.
I have nothing against grass feeding. Its a good commercial decision.

sako 85

In fairness to you Scotchman you are probably only doing what you need to do to maximise a return on your produce, if every other breeder competing in the show is feeding heavy how can you do any different and expect a decent return. It would be nice if some happy medium was found whereby maybe rams would be fed small amounts for the last couple of weeks prior to sale so they look their best. I would have thought Hogget rams would not need to continuously to reach their potential, rams being sold as lambs may differ. I suppose also it is fairly contradictory that any sire of lambs that are to be produced solely off a grass based system needs to be heavily fed concentrate in order not to be stunted as a hogget.

MayoAreMagic

This is a real problem in the hill breeds. I breed mayo sheep and rams and most of the time I wouldn't go near the ram that is winning in the show. Look at Con's example, that is just the reality. 'Hill breeders' who regularly win actually have the finest of farms up the country, miles from any hill , and their prize-winners don't come out of it. That is why the ram he bought faded away, the ground in Connemara couldn't sustain him. The reality is the judging needs to change. Over-fat animals shouldn't get anywhere, ewe lambs with horns like hoggets shouldn't get anywhere, only then will you see actual good hill sheep winning the prizes.

Personally, I go for rams I know are coming from an honest and knowledgeable farmer who knows what he is talking about. I always try to source an old ram if I can. Currently I have a 16 year old mayo ram, still has his teeth, belly still ok under him and a decent looking ram too. I will bring the sheep down and run as many as I can with him, with a younger ram taking his place after 3 weeks. He may die at some stage but look, how else will you get longevity in your flock? Before that I had a 13 year old lad, and before that another 16 year old, although he lost his teeth at 11. Only 1 of them ever even got entered in a show. So when you see that, it is clear that there is potential in the breed, it just isn't being harnessed.
Out of interest would any of the other blackface types have that type of staying power?

sako 85

Mayoaremagic, would it not be very hard to avoid inbreeding keeping the same rams for such a long time? Or do you feel inbreeding is insignificant?

Connemara Farmer

sako 85 wrote: »

Mayoaremagic, would it not be very hard to avoid inbreeding keeping the same rams for such a long time? Or do you feel inbreeding is insignificant?

The Mayo Connemara society have started to address the issue inbreeding (I THINK) by DNA testing each ram. Don't hold me to that though, only going from memory. I do remember initial results coming back from the rams that had been tested were much better than lowland societies in that regard.

Sheep breeder

with a lot of these heavy meal fed rams have lots and lots of fertility issues which are a serious problem,
most breeds of sheep are gone far away from the true breed characteristics which gave them there identity and there qualities,
example the suffolk with all the heavy bone and lacking the quick factory finish they use to have, the charollais with all the wool and the whitehead, the texel with this great skin every breeder talks about, the cheviots now lack of rearing lambs naturally from possible in breeding,
the two major faults with breeding is the society letting fellows away every year with a little each year and everybody else then having to follow to keep up,example colouring wool, bad pasterns into sales,
and the second judging at sales and shows with the judges from one area doing a show and giving the result to the guy who will judge his area next week and for the preimer sale the society picking somebody that suits the society, how many of the champions make big money or the ones that do possibly return home.
the charollais in france use up to 10 people to judge the overall champion and 3 people per section, this was tried in england for a couple of years and done away with due to none of the top breeders winning under this system, went back to the one to suit.