Water Charges and PPS No.s required

raspberrypi67

Folks,

Is it just me or is anyone else Pi**ed off with the fact that they want all our PPS NO.s
for this transaction. I have a real problem with this. I'd be worried that with all the fraud
going on that this new company set up would go and loose them. Anyway, I don't understand why they should actually need them.
Any comments??

Cheers
R.

dubrov

What damage can someone do with a PPS number?

EunanMac

They are some craic pretending that taxes won't be going up during this budget, while introducing an additional several hundred euro water charge tax, on top of existing taxes for the rest of our lives.

edber2011

Id be more concerned about how anyone can inject a substance into the meter and kill your whole family??????????????/

dhaughton99

Have a read of gene kerrigans piece in the sindo yesterday. Was very interesting regarding PPS.

edber2011

Water charges in this water drenched country of ours is a joke.
This charge is all part of the COUNTRYS RECVOVERY .Assholes

dubrov

dhaughton99 wrote: »

Have a read of gene kerrigans piece in the sindo yesterday. Was very interesting regarding PPS.

Just read it there. I'd say the whole article was written about in ten minutes.
A lot of ranting without any real substance.

The_Morrigan

Mod Note: Folks just a gentle reminder this is not a place to rant about the charges, taxes or any of the politicians. Try keep your posts within the remit of the forum.

Could you please also refrain from using bad language, there is no need for it.

Mrs OBumble

raspberrypi67 wrote: »

Folks,

Is it just me or is anyone else Pi**ed off with the fact that they want all our PPS NO.s for this transaction.

It's just you.

And they don't want all of them, only one per household.

Using a centrally managed unique identifier is likely to make the whole process a good deal more robust than it would be otherwise.

CarefulNow!

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's just you.

And they don't want all of them, only one per household.

Using a centrally managed unique identifier is likely to make the whole process a good deal more robust than it would be otherwise.

They do want all, to help allocate allowances

p_o_s_t_y

I really can't understand why people are thinking about paying this charge,it's beyond me

p_o_s_t_y

edber2011 wrote: »

Water charges in this water drenched country of ours is a joke.
This charge is all part of the COUNTRYS RECVOVERY .Assholes

Totally agree,the sheep will follow the herd,people seriously need to open their eyes and question this tax

Mrs OBumble

CarefulNow! wrote: »

They do want all, to help allocate allowances

The application pack which I filled out clearly said "only one number is required".

Yes, they want kids numbers for allowances (and I'd love to see a data match between that and the child-benefit too ... but that's for another forum).

But they do not want all adults numbers.

p_o_s_t_y

Everyone should read this and make up your mind:
http://www.unitedpeople.ie/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/irishwatersituation.pdf

edber2011

Ye have to fill out the form as its legal but you don't have to pay.

Triceratops Ballet

I have a real issue with giving them my pps too. I just dont see why its so badly needed I have plenty of other utilities to pay, (gas, electric,tv etc) they all manage to bill me without it. Also the form says I have to give it to avail of the household allowance of 30000l p/a, but surely the fact that I'm returning the form at all if proof enough that there is a person there whom should be given the allowance (no kids in our household) I just dont see why they so desperately need it

ppshay

dhaughton99 wrote: »

Have a read of gene kerrigans piece in the sindo yesterday. Was very interesting regarding PPS.

Thanks.

Link, if anyone else would like to read: http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/the-government-is-ppsing-all-over-us-30602998.html

They do not need a PPS number to supply water so they must want it for some other purpose or purposes.

EunanMac

p_o_s_t_y wrote: »

I really can't understand why people are thinking about paying this charge,it's beyond me

Because as all good gangsters know, when they put a gun to your head, what are you going to do ?

aliveandkicking

It's very simple, if you want your free allowances for every adult and child in the household supply Irish Water with the pps numbers so they can verify the number in the household. How else are they expected to know how many adult/kids there are in every house? If there was no pps number verification for the free allowances I think you would find the declared population of every house in Ireland would at least double overnight!

EunanMac

Very simple to give a few PPS numbers for family who are away at college or abroad, so the PPS no. is far from foolproof.

TheChizler

Suppose that's what's going to happen when you make the provider deal with the welfare side of things instead of the Dept. of Social Protection. How do childrens/fuel/phone/rent allowences work? Why is this preferable to keeping it part of those services?

Is it possible to return without any PPS? And just forego any allowance?

ABajaninCork

p_o_s_t_y wrote: »

I really can't understand why people are thinking about paying this charge,it's beyond me

Because the EU and the Troika have said that the concept of free water cannot continue. It was a condition of the bailout - remember? Water rates and Property Tax - Or no bailout!

L1011

edber2011 wrote: »

Id be more concerned about how anyone can inject a substance into the meter and kill your whole family??????????????/

No, because I'm not paranoid and this is possible meter or meter.

delahuntv

PPS number - absolutely no requirement whatsoever to give it.

You only need to give it if you wish to claim the 30,000litre household allowance - if you don't want the free allowance, (or children's allowance) you don't need to enter a pps number.

As for Gene Kerrigan - second rate journalist writing for what has become a second rate tabloid purporting to be a broadsheet. - The indo has had such an amount of false info on water charges you could write a book of fiction.

murphaph

edber2011 wrote: »

Water charges in this water drenched country of ours is a joke.

But the stuff you drink from the tap is not rainwater straight from the sky. It is stored and treated and has to be pumped to you. It is not free. It costs money to do all this. The only argument can be about how this process is paid for but arguing that there should be no charge "because it rains a lot" it nonsense I'm afraid.

Edit: don't forget sewage treatment costs as well! Your waste water doesn't treat itself.

Triceratops Ballet

delahuntv wrote: »

PPS number - absolutely no requirement whatsoever to give it.

You only need to give it if you wish to claim the 30,000litre household allowance - if you don't want the free allowance, (or children's allowance) you don't need to enter a pps number.

As for Gene Kerrigan - second rate journalist writing for what has become a second rate tabloid purporting to be a broadsheet. - The indo has had such an amount of false info on water charges you could write a book of fiction.

I've no problem with the concept of water charges at all to be honest, I think they're fair enough to a certain extent. I don't mind paying for a good service.

What I object to here is this notion that because I'm not willing to hand out my pps number willy nilly to a utility companythey won't be giving me the "free allowance". The free allowance is, according to the Irish water booklet, available to all households of 1 or more persons. Therefore if I fill in and return my form, that act in its self proves that I am a household of at least one person and should be entitled to the allowance. They do not need my pps number to verify that!

raspberrypi67

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's just you.

And they don't want all of them, only one per household.

Using a centrally managed unique identifier is likely to make the whole process a good deal more robust than it would be otherwise.

Ok, well the form I received, in my bundle, is asking for all the kids PPS no. Perhaps I'm wrong here and only need to submit one number, haven't read it all yet to be honest.

Love the way these threads go way off topic for people to have a good rant.

Regarding the question of PPS no and 'what harm it could do', well its one step closer to identity theft. Remember the all the incidents of laptops being left around with crucial information like this.
My God, even 'Apple Green' want more than enough information to get a loyalty card. I gave up filling it in when they wanted my address and other information. Sorry , bit off topic, my point that all this information is lurking and clearly a lot of it is just to benefit the receiver in terms of data.

R

raspberrypi67

dottie_lottie wrote: »

I've no problem with the concept of water charges at all to be honest, I think they're fair enough to a certain extent. I don't mind paying for a good service.

What I object to here is this notion that because I'm not willing to hand out my pps number willy nilly to a utility companythey won't be giving me the "free allowance". The free allowance is, according to the Irish water booklet, available to all households of 1 or more persons. Therefore if I fill in and return my form, that act in its self proves that I am a household of at least one person and should be entitled to the allowance. They do not need my pps number to verify that!

Here here....

D3PO

I dont see the issue tbh although It is/was a bit of a pain in the ass for me personally.

Had to take a day off work yesterday to register the birth of my new son just so I could sort getting a PPS number for him to fill in the form and thus get his water allowance. Granted I would have had to register the birth at some stage but it was an inconvienence to be rused into doing it when tbh I have enough on my plate right now.

Carawaystick

murphaph wrote: »

Edit: don't forget sewage treatment costs as well! Your waste water doesn't treat itself.

That's assuming your sewage gets treated and doesn't just flow into the local river. But you will pay for other peoples' to be treated...

Shedite27

It's just a unique identifier for a person, to make sure that my "allowance" is alocated to where I live now (and use water) and not at my parents home (where I'm registered to vote).

Otherwise you'd have people claiming they lived at 3/4 addresses.

Quite simple really.

Shedite27

raspberrypi67 wrote: »

Regarding the question of PPS no and 'what harm it could do', well its one step closer to identity theft. Remember the all the incidents of laptops being left around with crucial information like this.

I don't buy that. People put more valuable info on their facebook for the world to see. This is just people's latest way of objecting to water chages.

whavin

Gene Kerrigan's article may have been put across as a rant but he still the nail on the head with a lot of points. Your pps should only be needed to verify allowances to households and then should therefore be disregarded once this has been assessed. Irish Water will share your pps with any 3rd party that has an interest in buying the company or whom they do business with i.e. their suppliers. The fact Irish Water has managed the whole thing so badly from the get go, there isn't a hope of me handing over those details. I haven't been metered and will have to pay a flat fee for it either way, I'll fore go the allowance of 30,000 ltrs and pay the extra €150/year until things become a little clearer. €12.50 extra a month is not going to get them my personal details and sold to the highest bidder or done with as they see fit.

keno-daytrader

This so called safeguard of providing your pps number is nonsense.

What if 4 people in an unmetered house, whats to stop them from claiming only 1 person in this house and pay for only 1 occupant?

The whole thing is a farce and I feel when people dont pay there will be some bs legislation rammed thru so they can collect from your pps number, just like if you dont pay your LPT, Revenue will get it from you in the end.

They change the goal posts all the time with IW, remember how Phil Hogan said you have 1 year to declare a leak and Irish water will fix it(just 4 months ago he said this), thats totally gone now, and any leak is now is the owner/occupiers responsibility.

pwurple

D3PO wrote: »

I dont see the issue tbh although It is/was a bit of a pain in the ass for me personally.

Had to take a day off work yesterday to register the birth of my new son just so I could sort getting a PPS number for him to fill in the form and thus get his water allowance. Granted I would have had to register the birth at some stage but it was an inconvienence to be rused into doing it when tbh I have enough on my plate right now.

Well, you also needed it to claim childrens allowance. Plus, most of the maternity hospitals do the registration for you when you are in there having the baby. Plus, your wife is on maternity leave, and could probably have also done it at some point over the next month without you taking any day off work.

I much prefer allowances to be verified by PPS than randomly self-declared like the property tax is. Lowers fraud surely. And aren't mechanisms to lower fraud something to be aimed for in general?

pwurple

dottie_lottie wrote: »

What I object to here is this notion that because I'm not willing to hand out my pps number willy nilly to a utility companythey won't be giving me the "free allowance". The free allowance is, according to the Irish water booklet, available to all households of 1 or more persons. Therefore if I fill in and return my form, that act in its self proves that I am a household of at least one person and should be entitled to the allowance. They do not need my pps number to verify that!

So, they should write an entirely separate documentation system for you and other single people... and everyone else should be the other system with multiples in the household?

Sounds pricier I'd say.

Would you be willing to pay even MORE water charges to pay for this extra software, different policy set and entirely separate database to accomadate that kind of faffery? Or maybe, seeing as everyone has a bloody PPS, we could all use the same system.

D3PO

pwurple wrote: »

Well, you also needed it to claim childrens allowance. Plus, most of the maternity hospitals do the registration for you when you are in there having the baby. Plus, your wife is on maternity leave, and could probably have also done it at some point over the next month without you taking any day off work.

Childrens allowance is backdated and therefore wouldnt be a reason Id have to rush in and register the birth.

The hospitals dont do the registration for you they send the detail though but you have to go in to register the birth.

It also takes 10 working days after registering to recieve the PPS number. I can tell myself if something is a pain for me to do I dont need you telling me otherwise. It wouldnt be very difficult for them to have a policy in place for newborns that takes some consideration in for the parents involved, allowing a grace period of a few months to submit the detail for the newborns or face then having the allowance be removed.

This pushed me into doing something quicker than I ordinaraliary would have needed to do and whilst yes I could in theory have made my breatfeeding wife bring a newborn into town try and find pay and display parking, walk up and queue in the offices, and try and sort this between probably a nappy change and feed its not really something most sane individuals would expect of their wives.

As such needing the PPS to register was a pain in the ass for me and will be for a significant number of other people who have or have just had children over the past number of weeks.

Then again joined up thinking and a QUANGO I clearly expect too much.

Triceratops Ballet

pwurple wrote: »

So, they should write an entirely separate documentation system for you and other single people... and everyone else should be the other system with multiples in the household?

Sounds pricier I'd say.

Would you be willing to pay even MORE water charges to pay for this extra software, different policy set and entirely separate database to accomadate that kind of faffery? Or maybe, seeing as everyone has a bloody PPS, we could all use the same system.

Or they could just not ask for it at all, as its it not necessary and is open to abuse just as much as operating without it. IF the allowance was on a per person basis, I could see a reasoning behind it, but its not its 30,000 l per household if there is 1 adult or 10 adults living there.

I'm not taking about the allowance for kids here at all, what I'm saying is that every home in the country which is classed as a household, (in that it has more than one person in it) who returns the form should get that 30,000 allowance, because by virtue of returning the form at all they have proven that they a) are a household and b) are signing up to pay. I agree that if you want further discounts you should have to verify that you need them, but I don't think pps appropriate, my pps is issued to me for use in my interactions with the state, and not as some sort of bargaining chip a private company can use so that I can avail of a basic human need, and yes I know it was signed into law that they can ask for it, but that's even worse, that sets a precedent, how long will it be before all utilities are asking for this stuff, and what happens when Irish Water is no longer semi state, when its a fully private company, possibly owned but a company outside the state, will we still have to fork over the same information?

In terms of admin costs, I work for a company where people are billed according to category, and in family groups, and with certain discounts depending on their age and who pay by a variety of different methods. Maintaining a database is maintaining a database, its the same no matter how many categories are on it and what kind of information you require for them.

They simply could have asked:
q1. please state how many adults are resident at your address ____
q2.Do you wish to apply for additional water allowances for, children/ those with special needs ____________ (please supply the following documentation to support your application for this)

All this said, I have returned my form, without my pps, I'll forgo the allowance to protect my privacy thanks. "Here! we'll give you a free water, if you give us your pps" "eh F*&k right off thanks"

pwurple

D3PO wrote: »

This pushed me into doing something quicker than I ordinaraliary would have needed to do

:rolleyes: Exactly, you'd have to do it anyway.

I've a small baby and a toddler myself, I don't need it explained to me how to *gosh* park and drive and *omg* go into the city with a baby. Get over yerselves. It's a piece of piss to get the PPS for a child. People just make absolute mountains out of molehills.

ps, you've the bones of another two months to return that form. There was no rush with doing anything at all about a pps.

pwurple

dottie_lottie wrote: »

All this said, I have returned my form, without my pps, I'll forgo the allowance to protect my privacy thanks. "Here! we'll give you a free water, if you give us your pps" "eh F*&k right off thanks"

Have you ever lived outside Ireland? In the US, your social security number is needed for almost every purchase.

Here is the list of agencies who can lawfully request SSN.

• Insurance companies
• Credit card companies, lenders, and any other company receiving a credit application from you
• credit reporting agencies:
• Any company that sells products or services that require notification to the IRS, including investment advisors; banks; real estate purchases; financial transactions over $10,000, such as automobile purchases; and other financial transactions


So, you can't even buy a car without handing over your social security number in other countries. Or open a bank account.


It's a means of national identification. To prevent fraud, duplication, etc.

D3PO

pwurple wrote: »

:rolleyes: Exactly, you'd have to do it anyway.

I've a small baby and a toddler myself, I don't need it explained to me how to *gosh* park and drive and *omg* go into the city with a baby. Get over yerselves. It's a piece of piss to get the PPS for a child. People just make absolute mountains out of molehills.

ps, you've the bones of another two months to return that form. There was no rush with doing anything at all about a pps.

Yes Id have had to do it anyway. When it was convenient to do so

End of October is 2 months away is it ? :rolleyes::rolleyes: minus 10 working days to actually get the number to submit on the form assuming no delays their end :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just because you have no compassion for your wife (going by the lack of regard you would appear to show her or other new mothers in a similar scenario) dont expect others to act like cavemen too.

Triceratops Ballet

pwurple wrote: »

Have you ever lived outside Ireland? In the US, your social security number is needed for almost every purchase.

Here is the list of agencies who can lawfully request SSN.

• Insurance companies
• Credit card companies, lenders, and any other company receiving a credit application from you
• credit reporting agencies:
• Any company that sells products or services that require notification to the IRS, including investment advisors; banks; real estate purchases; financial transactions over $10,000, such as automobile purchases; and other financial transactions


So, you can't even buy a car without handing over your social security number in other countries. Or open a bank account.

It's a means of national identification. To prevent fraud, duplication, etc.

I don't live outside of Ireland, so what happens in other jurisdictions is somewhat irrelevant, a pps is not a ssn, it wasn't set up for any of the purposes you listed above, it was set up as a number citizens use to interact with state bodies.

Furthermore, it's is not going to prevent fraud in this instance! For example I live in an apartment of two adults, we're unmetered, so we will be paying the assessed charge for the first 6 months, were I a more dishonest person I could say there is one adult living there, give my pps number and pay the assessed charge for one person rather than two. Them having my pps doesn't stop fraud like that happening.
What about children of divorced parents who split their time between two homes, by rights both households are entitled to the allowance, because the children could be in either house any given week, but because they are registered by pps, one parent will probably lose out.

ABajaninCork

D3PO wrote: »

Yes Id have had to do it anyway. When it was convenient to do so

End of October is 2 months away is it ? :rolleyes::rolleyes: minus 10 working days to actually get the number to submit on the form assuming no delays their end :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just because you have no compassion for your wife (going by the lack of regard you would appear to show her or other new mothers in a similar scenario) dont expect others to act like cavemen too.

Er - Pwurple is a WOMAN! . Why is it people just assume posters are always male??

pwurple

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Er - Pwurple is a WOMAN! . Why is it people just assume posters are always male??

I know, LMAO at that fella.

D3PO

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Er - Pwurple is a WOMAN! . Why is it people just assume posters are always male??

Well then she should undestand better than most how ridiculous a statement "get over themselves" is in response to somebody pointing out how onderous expecting a new mother to travel into town with a newborn to register for a PPS is to get a water allowance when the simple solution would be to allow registration and a grace period for PPS to be provided for newborn children.

Getting way off topic but should for example a single parent who has a C Section today be expected to travel in to their local registration office in the next few weeks to sort a PPS number for their child so as to get their allowance ?

Theres no good argument to will convince me that this is a reasonable thing to expect.

Ogham

dottie_lottie wrote: »

Furthermore, it's is not going to prevent fraud in this instance! For example I live in an apartment of two adults, we're unmetered, so we will be paying the assessed charge for the first 6 months,.

Why do you think it will be for just the first 6 months?
Apartments will probably never be metered - you will be on the assessed charge for good.

pwurple

D3PO wrote: »

Well then she should undestand better than most how ridiculous a statement "get over themselves" is in response to somebody pointing out how onderous expecting a new mother to travel into town with a newborn to register for a PPS.

There were 2 months from receipt of the letter to filing the form. There's another 3 months until the bill arrives, in which time a simple phone call will sort it out.

You can't realistically tell me that 5 months to get a PPS number is a tight amount of time for anyone.


It's not "onderous" or even onerous to register a birth. We did it in the hospital for both our children. Which I'd expect someone with a c-section and half a brain to also do.

D3PO

pwurple wrote: »

There were 2 months from receipt of the letter to filing the form. There's another 3 months until the bill arrives, in which time a simple phone call will sort it out.

You can't realistically tell me that 5 months to get a PPS number is a tight amount of time for anyone.


It's not "onderous" or even onerous to register a birth. We did it in the hospital for both our children. Which I'd expect someone with a c-section and half a brain to also do.

Are you making timelines up to prove your non existant point ?

I got the letter last week Thursday to be precise. I know people that still dont have their letter, just because you have yours 2 months dont assume that Irish water were efficent enough to get eveyrbody their letters then.

Registeration is for the end of October, weather the bill is 3 months way is irrelevent. Unless your in a position to provide special dispensation to people in regards to the registration timeline :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Given it takes 10 working days to get reciept of the PPS number that gave me 21 working days to sort it going down to the last second and assuming no delays in getting the PPS number. Which would not be something worth assuming.

So yes it is onerous thank you Mrs Grammar Nazi

D3PO

pwurple wrote: »

It's not "onderous" or even onerous to register a birth. We did it in the hospital for both our children. Which I'd expect someone with a c-section and half a brain to also do.

I take the fact you need to insult people as a sign you have run out of a relevent argument. But well done :rolleyes:

Oh and FYI Im glad I can educate you and your clealry more than half a brain :rolleyes:

A Birth Notification Form (Form BNF/01) outlines the information to be recorded in the Register of Births and should be completed by one or both of the parents to guarantee that correct and accurate information is registered. This form is given to mothers in hospital and should be completed and returned to hospital staff before the mother is discharged. The form will be forwarded to the Registrar's Office letting the Registrar know that a birth has occurred. This is not enough, however, to register the birth.

The registration of the birth is carried out based on information provided by a qualified informant who is required to attend at the Office of the Registrar to sign the Register of Births

pwurple

Sorry you wasted you own time dude, it sucks. But it really ain't the problem of Irish water. For your future registration needs, here is an example of the registrar in a hospital:

http://www.cuh.hse.ie/Our_Services/Clinical_Services/Cork_University_Maternity_Hospital/Services_Provided/Maternity_Services/Post_Natal_Care/Registering_Your_Baby/

See how helpful I am!

I don't know why you think they will be insisting on you registering the baby's PPS number with them the very second of birth for the free allowance, when there is a quarterly billing cycle. Your assumption is bordering on complete paranoia.

D3PO

pwurple wrote: »

Sorry you wasted you own time dude, it sucks. But it really ain't the problem of Irish water. For your future registration needs, here is an example of the registrar in a hospital:

http://www.cuh.hse.ie/Our_Services/Clinical_Services/Cork_University_Maternity_Hospital/Services_Provided/Maternity_Services/Post_Natal_Care/Registering_Your_Baby/

See how helpful I am!

I don't know why you think they will be insisting on you registering the baby's PPS number with them the very second of birth for the free allowance, when there is a quarterly billing cycle. Your assumption is bordering on complete paranoia.

Thats a great service they have in Cork so but dont assume that that is the norm elsewhere in the country (and its not)

Im not bordering on paranoia I have a salient point. Im not sure why you suggest I should perhaps forgoe an allowance for 1 quarter and yes you must provide the PPS number to get the allowance tharts preciely my point there is no mechanisim of common sence for them to allow you register for the allowance and then retrospectively provide the detail.