Compact table saw

DamoKen

Recently put the final touches to my smallish workshop out the back so now comes the fun part of kitting it out. So next investment is going to be in a couple of stationary power tools. Already got a bandsaw which I inherited from a relative just waiting for me to pick it up (once I've built a stand). So between it and the work bench I'll be putting together I want to be as practical as possible selecting the most versatile tools for the remaining space and still leave room for me to move around.

With that in mind I've decided for now to go with firstly a table saw. As I won't have a lot of free space chances are I'll be moving it in and out of the workshop dependent on what I'm working on. So size, weight and maneuverability as well as accuracy will be high on my priority list.

Currently looking at a couple of bosch table saws, the GTS10 J (http://www.axminster.co.uk/bosch-gts-10-j-table-saw) and the more powerful GTS 10XC (http://www.axminster.co.uk/bosch-gts-10-xc-table-saw).

For now I might not need to power of the 10XC but I would see this machine lasting me a long time so wondering if I should go the extra 200 euro now? Granted the XC sounds like a heavy beast but was thinking of getting the gravity rise stand (http://www.powertoolworld.co.uk/bosch-gta-60w-table-saw-stand-gravity-rise.html) to get around this. Expensive I know but would rather my wallet than my back feel the pain

Or if there are more suitable saws out there? Would be really interested in hearing from anyone with any experience with either.

Thanks

galwaydude18

How about a festool plunge saw?

DamoKen

galwaydude18 wrote: »

How about a festool plunge saw?

Hi GalwayDude, I took a look at the plunge saws alright and wouldn't mind having one at some stage. From what I read though it seems more suitable for sheet goods rather than narrow stock. Also for repetitive cuts the table saw would seem to be a lot faster, i.e. set up once.

Having said that it is one cool looking tool, one I would definitely like at some stage when I have a bigger workshop

Cheers

recipio

The links don't open unfortunately .:rolleyes:
You seem to need something on wheels to move in and out - nothing wrong with that but you might get away with having long timber sticking out the door.
I find I use my miter saw almost exclusively for crosscutting and use a table saw for ripping only. It lets me use a ripping blade which is better than the usual combination blade.
The last thing you need is a planer/thicknesser. It lets you buy hardwood in the rough instead of being confined to planed softwood.
You only have to buy them once as I keep telling my other half

jonon9

I am in the same boat myself with table saws. Have you considered the dewalt dw745, what's really selling me is the rack and pinion system for the fence.

DamoKen

recipio wrote: »

The links don't open unfortunately .:rolleyes:
You seem to need something on wheels to move in and out - nothing wrong with that but you might get away with having long timber sticking out the door.
I find I use my miter saw almost exclusively for crosscutting and use a table saw for ripping only. It lets me use a ripping blade which is better than the usual combination blade.
The last thing you need is a planer/thicknesser. It lets you buy hardwood in the rough instead of being confined to planed softwood.
You only have to buy them once as I keep telling my other half

Sorry recipio, looks like the closing bracket inadvertently became part of the url's. Links again are http://www.axminster.co.uk/bosch-gts-10-j-table-saw and http://www.axminster.co.uk/bosch-gts-10-xc-table-saw .

I agree on the miter saw, if I had a bigger workshop it would be my ideal setup but for now I'm looking for a tool that can do both hence the table saw. But yep, spending far too much time squaring rough stock as close to right angles as feasible with a hand plane so a thicknesser is definitely on the current shopping list. Would you have any recommendations? Ideally would be looking for a combination planer/thicknesser, again size would be high on criteria.

Hi jonon9, yeah I've been looking at the Dewalt as well since I last posted, noticed though that Dewalt has a couple of new models out (http://toolguyd.com/dewalt-jobsite-table-saws-dwe7480-dwe7491rs-dwe7490x/ ) . For some reason only one of the 3 that seems to be available over here out of the 3 is the biggest - DWE7491 (http://www.caulfieldindustrial.com/dewalt-dwe7491-table-saw-250mm/p-e14338pd.html ).

Would be nice to see the 745's replacement, the 7480 over here as well, maybe it's coming out? Anyway although a bit bulkier the 7491 looks really nice, would be more I think on a par with the Bosch 10XC in terms of power and size but has quite a bit more cutting capacity. Have to say the specs on this are very tempting, big improvements on safety features, big increase in ripping, onboard storage and looks like it can accommodate a dado set. Not sure if the model this side of the Atlantic is the exact same though, anyone?

jonon9

DamoKen wrote: »

Sorry recipio, looks like the closing bracket inadvertently became part of the url's. Links again are http://www.axminster.co.uk/bosch-gts-10-j-table-saw and http://www.axminster.co.uk/bosch-gts-10-xc-table-saw .

I agree on the miter saw, if I had a bigger workshop it would be my ideal setup but for now I'm looking for a tool that can do both hence the table saw. But yep, spending far too much time squaring rough stock as close to right angles as feasible with a hand plane so a thicknesser is definitely on the current shopping list. Would you have any recommendations? Ideally would be looking for a combination planer/thicknesser, again size would be high on criteria.

Hi jonon9, yeah I've been looking at the Dewalt as well since I last posted, noticed though that Dewalt has a couple of new models out (http://toolguyd.com/dewalt-jobsite-table-saws-dwe7480-dwe7491rs-dwe7490x/ ) . For some reason only one of the 3 that seems to be available over here out of the 3 is the biggest - DWE7491 (http://www.caulfieldindustrial.com/dewalt-dwe7491-table-saw-250mm/p-e14338pd.html ).

Would be nice to see the 745's replacement, the 7480 over here as well, maybe it's coming out? Anyway although a bit bulkier the 7491 looks really nice, would be more I think on a par with the Bosch 10XC in terms of power and size but has quite a bit more cutting capacity. Have to say the specs on this are very tempting, big improvements on safety features, big increase in ripping, onboard storage and looks like it can accommodate a dado set. Not sure if the model this side of the Atlantic is the exact same though, anyone?

The bigger brother of the dw745 is the one to choose if you do alot of sheet ripping. The new saws look quite nice too. I think the Bosch saw can take a 1/2" dado blade if you choose to use it either the one mentioned above or the Bosch 4100 model.

recipio

Damoken,
those saws are essentially 'contactors' saws - designed to be used on site.
You could use one to rip boards but you will really struggle with sheet goods as there is no left hand support.
They will crosscut but think of the room you will need to move an 8' board across the blade ---lots ! ( I'm assuming you are not going to confine yourself to small wood projects )
They will however get you started and don't let me dampen your enthusiasm.
Incidentally, all saws sold in the EU will have a very short arbor so fitting a dado blade not possible.
To handle sheet goods on the table saw your typical joinery workshop would quadruple the floor space around the saw.
If I had space I'd invest in one of those vertical panel saws see www.sagetech.co.uk -- someday !

DamoKen

jonon9 wrote: »

The bigger brother of the dw745 is the one to choose if you do alot of sheet ripping. The new saws look quite nice too. I think the Bosch saw can take a 1/2" dado blade if you choose to use it either the one mentioned above or the Bosch 4100 model.

Hi John,as far as I remember from reading threads the European equivalent of the 4100 (gts 10xc ) doesn't support dados as the arbors too short.

recipio wrote: »

Damoken,
those saws are essentially 'contactors' saws - designed to be used on site.
You could use one to rip boards but you will really struggle with sheet goods as there is no left hand support.
They will crosscut but think of the room you will need to move an 8' board across the blade ---lots ! ( I'm assuming you are not going to confine yourself to small wood projects )
They will however get you started and don't let me dampen your enthusiasm.
Incidentally, all saws sold in the EU will have a very short arbor so fitting a dado blade not possible.
To handle sheet goods on the table saw your typical joinery workshop would quadruple the floor space around the saw.
If I had space I'd invest in one of those vertical panel saws see www.sagetech.co.uk -- someday !

Hi Recipio, wasn't sure about the dado, not as clearcut as Bosch as the same model number for dewalt both sides of the pond. From what I've read there's no actual regulations against dados in Europe, thought it was simply because it's just not something Europeans woodworkers used? Could be wrong though. Dados are not the be all and end all anyway, nice bonus that I may use sometime in the future but dependent on space last freestanding tool will be a router table I can use for dados and rebates.

And yeah, I know they're site saws. Was an initial concern for accuracy but from the reviews I've read if set up right they can perform just as well as standalone table saws. As space is limited for jobs with say sheet goods I'll need to be able to easily move the table outside, hence a compact easily transportable saw that can be moved without name or help. Saw the vertical saw, someday

Cheers

recipio

Moving the saw outside is fine but it rains a lot here ? ! Probably best to rough cut sheet goods then finish them on the saw.
Regarding dado blades, the EU have banned them so saws for the EU market ( including the vast majority made in China/Taiwan ) simply don't have them. Scheppach make a 'wobble' blade but don't bother - the bottom of the cut is concave. They are as safe as any spinning blade, I think the grey suits in Brussels banned them because the blade guard has to be removed to work them and that upsets them. They are not actually illegal to use but a professional workshop might have health and safety issues with them.
When you come to get a 'cabinet' saw ( a few years time ) its not unreasonable to order a 220 volt job from the US ( I have done it ) and that will have a long arbor - the Yanks won't be told what to do.
If you are going to buy a planer /thicknesser I'd recommend the Scheppach range as they have patented rubber rollers which leave a supersmooth finish.
Its all about getting experience as you go along but as soon as you get the table saw I'd start saving for a good mitre saw !

cheers.

DamoKen

jonon9 wrote: »

I am in the same boat myself with table saws. Have you considered the dewalt dw745, what's really selling me is the rack and pinion system for the fence.

Jonon just a word on the Dw745. I've sent a mail to customer supporting enquiring about the new upgraded range, i.e. DWE7480 which is the successor to the DW745 asking why are they not available this side of the Atlantic and are they likely to be rolled out here any time soon.

Just a bit loathe to buy a saw no matter how good when a new and improved model of it has been for sale for over a year in a different market region.

Will update if and when I get a reply. In the event that there is no plan to release the newer models this way anytime soon another saw to consider could be the Metabo TS254. Some really nice features, in the same price range as the 745/7480 so worth having a look.

DamoKen

recipio wrote: »

If you are going to buy a planer /thicknesser I'd recommend the Scheppach range as they have patented rubber rollers which leave a supersmooth finish.
Its all about getting experience as you go along but as soon as you get the table saw I'd start saving for a good mitre saw !

cheers.

Hi Recipio, is there any models in particular you'd recommend. I see them recommended a lot in forums, however the model that comes up time after time is the HMS 260 which isn't made any more so only option there is if it comes up on ebay. The new models all seem to be in a PlanA range, can't find any reviews for any of them which seems a bit odd.

Do you know anything about this range? Heard some of their gear is now produced in China like so many others and inevitably the quality has suffered as a result. Just not sure if the PlanA range falls into this.

Cheers

recipio

Hi DamoKen,
after producing the same machines since the 1980's ,Scheppach started to bring new models to the market about 6-7 years ago.
If you can get your hands on a good HMS260 then go for it. There is also the HM2600cs with a deep 210mm thicknessing depth and cast iron top - now discontinued.The rubber rollers potentially liable to wear but I've never heard of anybody having to change them, although it can be done.
The newest model seems to be the Plana which has a 250 mm bed and 210 mm thicknessing capacity. Caulfields have them for 1600 euro + vat.
In general, the 250 mm wide planing surface is more than enough - you won't find softwood wider than that and hardwood is usually glued together in planks anyway for table tops etc.
The 210 mm thicknessing depth is however very handy and worth paying for.
With the rubber rollers, no marks are left on the timber and you can get down to 2mm ( with a false bed ) with suitable timber, making your own veneers.
Overall, if you are on a budget I'd certainly try to find a good used HMS260 off ebay and go from there.There is a HMS260 'kombi 'with a mortice attachment but its not worth paying extra just for that.

jonon9

DamoKen wrote: »

Jonon just a word on the Dw745. I've sent a mail to customer supporting enquiring about the new upgraded range, i.e. DWE7480 which is the successor to the DW745 asking why are they not available this side of the Atlantic and are they likely to be rolled out here any time soon.

Just a bit loathe to buy a saw no matter how good when a new and improved model of it has been for sale for over a year in a different market region.

Will update if and when I get a reply. In the event that there is no plan to release the newer models this way anytime soon another saw to consider could be the Metabo TS254. Some really nice features, in the same price range as the 745/7480 so worth having a look.

Look forward to the update. Yeah the Metabo looks good I like the integrated legs but I wonder how good the fence is, If the dw480 can be got here I might spring for it, the rack and pinion fence alone sells me on it.

DamoKen

jonon9 wrote: »

Look forward to the update. Yeah the Metabo looks good I like the integrated legs but I wonder how good the fence is, If the dw480 can be got here I might spring for it, the rack and pinion fence alone sells me on it.

Hi Jonon, got a reply from DeWalt. Unfortunately they've no plans to introduce the upgraded version of the 745 here. Didn't give any reason but given they have introduced the most expensive model the cynic in me thinks they might be getting rid of all their old 745 stock in Europe. Could be wrong but can't see why they'd continue supplying an old model to one region when they're selling an improved version of that model in another?

Anyway think that may swing me in favour of the Metabo, going to do a bit more research but like what I've seen. Some features there such as compact size to power ratio coupled with soft start, induction and motor brake that are quite persuasive

jonon9

DamoKen wrote: »

Hi Jonon, got a reply from DeWalt. Unfortunately they've no plans to introduce the upgraded version of the 745 here. Didn't give any reason but given they have introduced the most expensive model the cynic in me thinks they might be getting rid of all their old 745 stock in Europe. Could be wrong but can't see why they'd continue supplying an old model to one region when they're selling an improved version of that model in another?

Anyway think that may swing me in favour of the Metabo, going to do a bit more research but like what I've seen. Some features there such as compact size to power ratio coupled with soft start, induction and motor brake that are quite persuasive

That's a shame I'm sure it would have done well on this side of the water. Maybe we might see a price drop on the dw745 (wishful thinking)

DamoKen

recipio wrote: »

Hi DamoKen,
after producing the same machines since the 1980's ,Scheppach started to bring new models to the market about 6-7 years ago.
If you can get your hands on a good HMS260 then go for it. There is also the HM2600cs with a deep 210mm thicknessing depth and cast iron top - now discontinued.The rubber rollers potentially liable to wear but I've never heard of anybody having to change them, although it can be done.
The newest model seems to be the Plana which has a 250 mm bed and 210 mm thicknessing capacity. Caulfields have them for 1600 euro + vat.
In general, the 250 mm wide planing surface is more than enough - you won't find softwood wider than that and hardwood is usually glued together in planks anyway for table tops etc.
The 210 mm thicknessing depth is however very handy and worth paying for.
With the rubber rollers, no marks are left on the timber and you can get down to 2mm ( with a false bed ) with suitable timber, making your own veneers.
Overall, if you are on a budget I'd certainly try to find a good used HMS260 off ebay and go from there.There is a HMS260 'kombi 'with a mortice attachment but its not worth paying extra just for that.

Cheers Recipio, been shopping around and a toss up between the hms2600ci (http://www.nmatools.co.uk/productdetails.asp?Product=1011&ZStock=0 ), the axminster AW106PT2 (http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-trade-series-aw106pt2-planer-thicknesser ) and the Jet-260 (http://www.axminster.co.uk/jet-jpt-260-planer-thicknesser ).

Proving a tough choice, original budget would have been no higher than the axminster model if that. Some great reviews on it although the changeover to thicknesser sounds like it could get old pretty fast, especially if you need to realign the fence each time you put it back on.

The Jet model sounds really good, and quiet too although it completely blows the budget out of water. On paper the Scheppach sounds good but very hard to find reviews, especially current reviews for some reason. Hmm to be continued...

recipio

Hi Damoking,
I have a hm2600ci which I now see is relabelled the Plana 3. Don't worry, it runs fine on a standard 13 amp outlet. Scheppach saved money by not putting in a clutch - the thicknesser rollers run all the time when planing. I thought that would annoy me but now I don't think about it.The only problem is that if you start a heavy thicknesser cut you can't just disengage the clutch ( as on the old hms260 ) , you have to knock the motor off.
Its also very heavy - you might need help to lift the top on to the base. Its a great machine for the money though and the one I would go for.

DamoKen

recipio wrote: »

Hi Damoking,
I have a hm2600ci which I now see is relabelled the Plana 3. Don't worry, it runs fine on a standard 13 amp outlet. Scheppach saved money by not putting in a clutch - the thicknesser rollers run all the time when planing. I thought that would annoy me but now I don't think about it.The only problem is that if you start a heavy thicknesser cut you can't just disengage the clutch ( as on the old hms260 ) , you have to knock the motor off.
Its also very heavy - you might need help to lift the top on to the base. Its a great machine for the money though and the one I would go for.

Hi Recipio, sorry I've been out sick the last few weeks so only checking my threads intermittently, doesn't help that I've just realised that the tablet version of boards doesn't notify of new posts on threads!

As a matter of interest do you know if the hm2600ci /Plana 3 is an induction motor? Couldn't find any info on it and one of the reasons I was thinking of the Jet-260, old neighbours some of whom would be quite sick so noise levels would be a concern.

Cheers

recipio

No problem. Yes, the HM2600ci has quite a beefy induction motor - as do all planer/thicknessers. You will also want to budget for dust extraction as they spew sawdust all over the shop. If you are getting a freestanding unit its well worth investing in one with a cartridge top which contains the fine dust. This hobby is more expensive than golf !

DamoKen

recipio wrote: »

No problem. Yes, the HM2600ci has quite a beefy induction motor - as do all planer/thicknessers. You will also want to budget for dust extraction as they spew sawdust all over the shop. If you are getting a freestanding unit its well worth investing in one with a cartridge top which contains the fine dust. This hobby is more expensive than golf !

Didn't know all planer/thicknessers were induction. Nearly sure the cheaper models I looked at were brush motors? (read very loud!)

Although it's quite possible given the amount of tools of different types I've looked at could be mixing it up with the table saws .

On the dust extractors, yeah again very easy to just go up and up in price. One I'm thinking of for now though is the Numatic NVD750 (http://www.axminster.co.uk/numatic-nvd750-workshop-vacuum-extractor ). Lot of good reviews across a number of forums. For that price range seems to be pretty decent.

recipio

DamoKen,
you are thinking of those benchtop thicknessers which have brush motors. A planer/thicknesser will always need plenty of power,are designed for continuous ( 'industrial ') use and will always have an induction motor.
I would caution against the Numatic which is actually a dust extractor for power tools. You will need a chip extractor - Axminster have a good range and are good to deal with if a little pricey at this stage.
In an ideal world ( my next workshop ) I would install a central vacuum system to extract from every machine and power tool.

DeVore

BudgetBoy is here!!

I got one of these: https://www.whraitt.ie/p/rp_dx1000_dust_extractor_ for extraction
and one of these: https://www.whraitt.ie/p/jet_jts10_sawbench_240v_ for table sawing.

I dunno if they will suffice for your needs but they work well together for me!
420 euro plus shipping.

bonzodog2

DeVore wrote: »

BudgetBoy is here!!

I got one of these: https://www.whraitt.ie/p/rp_dx1000_dust_extractor_ for extraction
and one of these: https://www.whraitt.ie/p/jet_jts10_sawbench_240v_ for table sawing.

I dunno if they will suffice for your needs but they work well together for me!
420 euro plus shipping.

What was the shipping?

DeVore

I think it was 45 each but I had them shipped separately so it might be 45 for both (in fact I would expect so).

DamoKen

DeVore wrote: »

BudgetBoy is here!!

I got one of these: https://www.whraitt.ie/p/rp_dx1000_dust_extractor_ for extraction
and one of these: https://www.whraitt.ie/p/jet_jts10_sawbench_240v_ for table sawing.

I dunno if they will suffice for your needs but they work well together for me!
420 euro plus shipping.

Hey DeVore, sorry never saw your post! Funny you should mention WHRaitts. Was up that neck of the woods a few weeks back so popped in while the missus was off shopping for a nose. Must have been chatting with Stanley, the son I think for a good hour. Dead sound and really helpful, even nicked his Mams crutches to help me up the stairs to the tools section! :-)

Anyway holding off until I'm fully back on my feet before buying. Would go nuts knowing it's in the shed and not being able to test it out! Plus another reason I popped in is I wanted to get an idea of floor size on a pt260. He had a Charnwood out on the floor, different manufacturer but comparable size. Glad I did, damn sight bigger than I expected so having second thoughts on a planer thicknesser for the moment. Thought of a desk model to tide me over but talking between 3 to 500 even for that and reviews aren't the best. More than likely going to be moving house in the next year and outbuildings will be part of our criteria so think I'll have to make do with paying a bit extra to get wood squared for now. Don't have a massive amount planned requiring that in the next year so might be best to wait and buy something quality one we've moved.

By the way meant to say thanks Recipio for the heads up on the numantic. The catalogue gave it a performance rating of 4 meaning good for chips and dust so assumed it would do the job. Asked Axminster to clarify after your post and you are indeed correct. The numantic is designed more with power tools in mind. Had a call from Axminster after my mail and was told it will definitely be an improvement over no extraction but would not be their recommended choice as a long term for a PT.

Catalogue was a bit misleading there so cheers for the heads up!

recipio

DamoKen,
You will need a planer to put a straight face and edge on a board ( no board is ever completely flat ) and then thickness off those two reference surfaces. If you just get a benchtop thicknesser you will have to do the planing by hand and that takes some skill.
Unfortunately the Irish market is small,overpriced and people tend to hang on to their gear. I'd still suggest you try and find a secondhand Scheppach HMS 260 in good nick. I find UK outlets ( plenty of them on ebay ) are good at sending machinery over here - that's how I bought most of my stuff anyway.

DamoKen

recipio wrote: »

DamoKen,
You will need a planer to put a straight face and edge on a board ( no board is ever completely flat ) and then thickness off those two reference surfaces. If you just get a benchtop thicknesser you will have to do the planing by hand and that takes some skill.
Unfortunately the Irish market is small,overpriced and people tend to hang on to their gear. I'd still suggest you try and find a secondhand Scheppach HMS 260 in good nick. I find UK outlets ( plenty of them on ebay ) are good at sending machinery over here - that's how I bought most of my stuff anyway.

Hi Recipio, yeah I know I'd need both, sorry by desk model I meant something like this http://www.mcquillantools.ie/scheppach-hms-1070-8-planer-thicknesser.html. Can't find any decent reviews unfortunately and don't particularly want to part with 500 on a punt, especially as I'll more than likely be upgrading over the next two years. Going to start kitting out the shed properly once I'm back on my feet. Once I've the table saw & bandsaw set up and the replacement solid workbench finally built I'll think about the PT again. Should know at that stage just what I'll be able to fit!

recipio

Damoken,
glad to hear you are recovering. Any PT is better than none. With that small Scheppach just make sure the thicknesser gears are not made of plastic -it happens in low end products and they last no time.
You only buy these things once so avoid frustration and save up until you can afford the real deal.!

DamoKen

Hi guys, quick update. Finally back on my feet so after reorganising and reviewing my floor space as well as seeing the PT first hand I've gone ahead with ordering both the PT & tablesaw.

Bought locally for both, ordered the Planer Thicknesser through the Carpentry Store outside Naas and the table saw through Power Tools hub (http://powertoolhub.ie/) who rent some floor space over in Brooks off the Long Mile.

Went with the Axminster AW106PT2 from the Carpentry Store after an extremely helpful demo from Noel (http://www.thecarpentrystore.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=30184). Also ordered the Jet DC950a from here (http://www.axminster.co.uk/jet-dc-950a-extractor) after seeing the difference it made when Noel hooked it up. Not listed on their site but they stock it so if you're shopping for new tools worthwhile giving them a call rather than going on the site contents alone.

From an equally helpful Ger in Powertools hub I went with the Metabo TS254. Haven't seen it in action yet but it was what I was veering toward before I was in there. After without prompting or mention of it by me he added it to a pricing list of table saws he stocks and recommended it above other higher priced models on the list as a hidden gem sort of decided it for me. Was totally by chance I even asked if they stock table saws, was only there to pick up some rough sapele to use on the PT in Naas!

Should be all arriving by the weekend so if any are interested can do an update with first impressions shortly after. Can't wait for the weekend!

recipio

Well done. That PT will last you a lifetime and I'm glad you got the extractor - it stops the rollers compressing chips on to the planed board as well as keeping the shop tidy.
The Metabo will get you started but you should get some left hand support to support crosscuts in boards. If you can rise to a miter saw in the future I'd recommend the Milwaulkee 12 " which is the only saw to have a digital readout.