Polish TPs weak or non existent in set up

reignschaos

Hi

I've up up a 1.1 metre dish in a similar manner to IBAs, see attached photo. Elevation is at 25. Prime is pointing to 26 with a Inverto Black Ultra (quad). The next lnb is pointing to 19 and the last is 13 Hotbird for the polish channels. I've just upgraded that to Inverto Black Ultra.

My problem is that for most of the Polish channels I'm getting weak TP signal or no TP signal at all. Polish channels I'm looking for are both free and paid. This is the sub package I currently have (http://
satsklep.pl/en_US/p/Pre-Paid-Card-Smart-HD-2-months/1003)

For something like Dubai
Sports 3 or TVP Seriale I'm getting a signal of Sig. Intensity 87 and Quality of 71.

Sliding the LNB along the rail doesnt provide me with any better options. However when taking the lnb off the rail and pointing it up towards the top of the dish, i was able to get a broken signal for TVP. This seems to indicate a complete hotbird may be possible if I can work out how to align the Hotbird LNB or re-align my setup.

Anyone have any advise on how to increase my Hotbird TPs list with strong signals?

Thanks

Reigns

reignschaos

Hi

The ability to upload photos doesn't seem to be active. I've made them public from this link
https://

plus.google.com/photos/112886623613731802863/albums/6061504889659539985?hl=en

Reigns

snaps

Yes some of the polish transponders are weak in Ireland, especially the north west. I used to have problems with some of the Canal+ HD channels on an offset 1.1m dish in mayo.

Is there any line of sight obstructions like a branch of a tree? I would have thought if the signal is strong on the Dubai sports channels, you would at least get a lock on the TVP transponder.

Are you getting the TVN transponder at 11.393 V 27500 5/6

If your able to get a signal when removing the lnb then it may well be that your arm needs re positioning (I.e the angle it sits?)

swoofer

I checked that weak transponder and its not weak, its 88signal and 98quality on a 1.1m triax in clare, motorised, you need to tweak the lnb mount, did you turn the lnb holder upside down, gives a bit more tilt. And the dish elevation for Dublin is 24.5 but with the weight on the lnb it will sag so you need to compensate. Then do a bit of skewing and hey presto you will be sorted.

snaps

It won't be weak on a focused 1.1m but an offset 1.1m may be different.

Thurston?

swoofer wrote: »

And the dish elevation for Dublin is 24.5 but with the weight on the lnb it will sag so you need to compensate.

You can't compensate for a sagging feed arm by changing the dish elevation. If the arm is sagging, it needs reinforcing to get the LNB back at the focal point.

reignschaos

Hi

Snaps: In relation to obstruction, yes, unfortunately its not just a branch its a tree :-(. Re-checked the TP on another receiver and as before no signal.

Swoofer: Yep rail has been turned. Even taking into account LNB weight and sagging the angel I manually pointed the lnb at the dish to receive a signal was pointing it pretty much to the top part of the dish (not towards the middle of dish as would be normal). As far as I can work out, there is no way to make that angel unless I construct something.

I've another dish an old Sky dish pointing at 28 (I think its size 60). If i pointed that at 13 and got an offset from that to 28, do you think I would be able to get the free spectrum of tps from both birds.....or is that bloody tree going to cause me on going issues?

Thanks for all the inputs so far.

snaps

reignschaos wrote: »

Hi

Snaps: In relation to obstruction, yes, unfortunately its not just a branch its a tree :-(. Re-checked the TP on another receiver and as before no signal.

Swoofer: Yep rail has been turned. Even taking into account LNB weight and sagging the angel I manually pointed the lnb at the dish to receive a signal was pointing it pretty much to the top part of the dish (not towards the middle of dish as would be normal). As far as I can work out, there is no way to make that angel unless I construct something.

I've another dish an old Sky dish pointing at 28 (I think its size 60). If i pointed that at 13 and got an offset from that to 28, do you think I would be able to get the free spectrum of tps from both birds.....or is that bloody tree going to cause me on going issues?

Thanks for all the inputs so far.

I'm going to hazard a guess that tree is the problem. The strong signals are passing through but the weaker ones are not.
The 60cm will be marginal for the weaker transponders but will perform better than your offset.

If you still have the same setup in the winter you will know if it is the tree causing problems if the signal improves (Unless the tree is evergreen)!

radiowaves

reignschaos wrote: »

Hi

Snaps: In relation to obstruction, yes, unfortunately its not just a branch its a tree :-(. Re-checked the TP on another receiver and as before no signal.

Swoofer: Yep rail has been turned. Even taking into account LNB weight and sagging the angel I manually pointed the lnb at the dish to receive a signal was pointing it pretty much to the top part of the dish (not towards the middle of dish as would be normal). As far as I can work out, there is no way to make that angel unless I construct something.

I've another dish an old Sky dish pointing at 28 (I think its size 60). If i pointed that at 13 and got an offset from that to 28, do you think I would be able to get the free spectrum of tps from both birds.....or is that bloody tree going to cause me on going issues?

Thanks for all the inputs so far.

60cm will be too small to get the weaker Polish HD signals.

swoofer

with a tree in the way its best to either cut down tree, not easy if its not yours!!, move dish, best option, or break your heart trying to get a non existent signal. However, you could try the 1.1 as the prime focus and see the result ie if those channels that were weak are now better then it might be the setup but loosing 26 and getting it back can be tricky.

Two big dishes may be the solution, one for 13 and the other for 28, 26, 23, 19.

Thurston?

reignschaos wrote: »

... In relation to obstruction, yes, unfortunately its not just a branch its a tree

So this tree is actually in the direction of the 13 degrees east satellites (not where the dish is pointed)?

How far away is the tree from the dish? How tall is it, measuring from the same level as the dish?

Elevation angle for these satellites will be over 25 degrees in most of Ireland, so the tree needs to be pretty close or tall.

Thurston?

reignschaos wrote: »

... I manually pointed the lnb at the dish to receive a signal was pointing it pretty much to the top part of the dish

Have you tried moving the LNB in & out in its holder? (Towards & away from the dish.) The Black Ultra allows a fair bit of adjustment this way.

loughside

You`re trying to pull in too many sats too far apart from the one dish.

Best option is to motorise the 1.1 or another dish for your 13deg, 80cm should do.

snaps

loughside wrote: »

You`re trying to pull in too many sats too far apart from the one dish.

Best option is to motorise the 1.1 or another dish for your 13deg, 80cm should do.

Have to admit you do have a point. Usually the rule is 10deg each side of the prime focus.

My 1.1 was multi lnb on 9,13,19,23,28 east with prime focus on 19 east.

Its back motorised now and it works out so much better.

swoofer

no its possible but time is needed to get these 4 sats on a 1.1m but we have a possible problem with a tree, we also dont know the location or make of dish but its not a case of setting elevation on dish, putting on bracket, fixing lnbs, doing a bit of twiddling and away you go, its a fiddly painstaking process. Dish markings are notoriously unreliable, so 25 on dish may be out a degree, its trial and error, dish has to be exactly perpendicular ie 100% acurratre, dish has to lined up dead straight ie lnb arm not bent, or mount not perfectly aligned to pole, I used to count the thread!!

Sats are now super powerful and spot beams are even more so. The sats 28, 19 13 are super powerful 26 is the hardest as its in effect a stray beam.

here are images of what i mean. all work. the first image shows a clear view of the bracket layout.

So make of dish and location would be a help.

I should add as well that top quality sat cable is a help, and making sure the connectors are made up correctly ie no stray braid of earth touching or near the inner core.

And the tuner in the receiver, we dont know make of receiver either. And the lnb, black ultra is the best but it might be an idea to use bullet lnbs first, ie lighter and easy to fiddle with.

PS I would use a traix dish every time but if my memory serves me right newer triax 1.1m are not actually 1.1 ie they are smaller.

The best receiver used to be a humax, then dreambox had a particular tuner that was tops, technomate was good, a spiderbox 9000 hd was/is ace, I have one. And there are a few otheres even better but not easy to get anymore.

The 4 lnb's give fast zapping.

Thurston?

swoofer wrote: »

make of dish and location would be a help.

Look at the photos the OP linked to. It's a Triax TD110.

And stop going on about elevation: OP says 26 east is at the prime focus, so the elevation will be set for 26 degrees east.

Thurston?

loughside wrote: »

You`re trying to pull in too many sats too far apart from the one dish.

Best option is to motorise the 1.1 or another dish for your 13deg, 80cm should do.

I can't post attachments but, there's some graphs in a document dealing with the Triax 'Unique Multi-Reception Dish', showing the fall-off in gain with offset for the 'Unique' v. a TD78. (TD78 chosen for its similar gain figure to 'Unique'.) At 13 degrees offset, the TD78 is about 2dB down on prime focus: if this figure also applies to the TD110, the TD110 would actually have more gain at 13 degrees offset, than the TD78 would at prime. (TD78 gain @11.7 gHz: 37.1dBi, TD110 gain @11.7 gHz: 40.2dBi.) TD88 gain @11.7 gHz is 38.8dBi.

loughside

Re. the original post, i`d swing the dish round from 26deg to 13 and check out Hotbird then. This way you`re not getting any offset reflection from a part of the dish face, as you are now.

On the subject of dishes i could never warm to the Triax brand, the back elevation adjustment and the pole or motor attachment were much too flimsy, ok for a fixed dish, but just try motorising the thing (see here, second pic. http://www.gymalp.ch/~eumetcast/Gallery.html).
The Televes 1.1 is a much more solid dish and according to specs a tad more gain.

Claimed gain figures according to the manufactures specs,

Orbital 1mtr can not find manufacturers spec sheet and seller websites giving specs disagree with each other ? 11.75GHz 40.5dB or 10.7-11.7GHz 39.8dB depending on website
Fortec Star FC100CM 12.5GHz 40.02 which at 11.7GHz gives about 39.4dB
ISS 1.05mtr 39.2-40.5, which at 11.7 GHz gives about 39.8-40dB
Gibertini 1mtr 11.7GHz 39.95
Triax TD110 11.7GHz 40.2dB
Prodeline 1mtr midband gain (+/-0.2dB) 40.5dB
Televes 1mtr 11GHz 40.5dB which at 11.7GHz gives about 41.0dB
Televes 1.1mtr 11GHz 41.5dB which at 11.7GHz gives about 42.0dB

swoofer

thurston your a great help, i missed bit about triax, the elevation is
key, 26 marking on a triax or any dish could be wrong ie it could be as 27, thats what I mean.

and the first image i posted, shows the exact setup the OP requires, it shows skew on lnb',s it shows spacing, it shows angle of bracket and it shows bracket was re-drilled o get 26.

What is missing is the focal length setting, ie distance from dish face to lnb nose, got by moving lnb in and out and watching signal strength. All the op needs is shown in the image.

Using quad lnbs puts more weight on the lnb arm and drags it dwon, you compensate by drilling a hole at end of lnb nearest mounting, in fact the triax used to have cut outs for this very purpose, and put in a bolt, looping the cable differently also takes weight off the lnb arm. And you can affix stay wires to the dish that will make the lnb arm even more secure.

here is an image

Thurston?

swoofer wrote: »

... the elevation is
key, 26 marking on a triax or any dish could be wrong ie it could be as 27

The OP has correctly aligned on 26 east, therefore the dish will be at the correct elevation setting for 26 degrees east at the OP location, regardless of what the markings say, & they can't change it without messing up reception of 26.

reignschaos

Hi

I've uploaded additional pictures taken from the Arm of my first dish and from the back and from the second sky dish. The main dish is a Triax 1.1, link to pictures are here

https://
plus.google.com/u/0/photos/112886623613731802863/albums/6061504889659539985

I'm in Dublin 15 and the receivers I've tested on are:-

Ferguson Ariva 102 mini
Ferguson 150 combo
Xoro HRC 9000+

Well the idea is to get the free movies on 26 which i can successfully get currently.

If i use my second dish (currently sky) or other prime on 13 based on the comment above about 10 degrees then might I miss out on some TPs on 28?

Snaps: Interesting simple idea about the trees, see what happens when the leaves fall :-)

Thurston?

Going by those photos, I can't see how that tree would be doing any harm, although photos can be deceiving. Surest way would be to sight along something giving you the elevation angle for 13 east (26.5 degrees), while looking in the direction of these satellites (to the right of where the dish is pointed, viewed from behind).

And if the tree is in the way, I don't think the leaves falling off would make any difference.

Thurston?

The OP has correctly aligned on 26 east, therefore the dish will be at the correct elevation setting for 26 degrees east at the OP location, regardless of what the markings say

From Dublin, according to dishpointer.com, the dish needs to be 'looking' up at 22.3 degrees for the 26 east sat. position. So a reading of 25 degrees on the dish elevation scale (as per OP) either means the scale isn't accurate or, the mounting pole is leaning forward slightly.

loughside

Thurston? wrote: »

Going by those photos, I can't see how that tree would be doing any harm, although photos can be deceiving. Surest way would be to sight along something giving you the elevation angle for 13 east (26.5 degrees), while looking in the direction of these satellites (to the right of where the dish is pointed, viewed from behind).

And if the tree is in the way, I don't think the leaves falling off would make any difference.

Totally agree, that tree doesn`t come into it.
Are you sure the dish hasn`t a slight warp?
Try a different cable run maybe?

snaps

It just goes to show that in this game things are never as easy as one thinks!

I've a mate in galway who has a real problem with trees. In the summer he barely gets 1 west, but in the winter with no leaves its near enough perfect. On a td100.

Thurston?

I suppose it depends on the tree, the number & thickness of branches that are left in the dish LOS when the leaves fall off.

reignschaos

Well spotted Thurston re elevation as not being as recommended by Dishpointer. I based my elevation on comments in other threads. I also googled your comment about the Triax Multi reception dish and came across this http://

w w w .catec.ro/catalog/Triax%20TD%20Unique.pdf

I haven't seen that type of support for LNBs before, but considering the comments above about weight etc, i think its a pretty simple and effective looking idea.

Snaps as you commented, so many parameters to consider and we are not even sure if it possible with this configuration.

Swoofer those feed arms, do you recommend any retailers ?

Someone mentioned my cabling. I can rule that out (mostly) as I use different ones in terms of config and final set up.
Someone else mentioned attempting to reduce the weight on the arm with a bullet LNB might see if i can get one for testing. Looks like more time to be spent on a roof and climbing in and out windows :-)

Thurston?

reignschaos wrote: »

... I based my elevation on comments in other threads.

Beware of those who offer up their settings as some kind of 'magic formula', as they usually don't understand the basics, & more than likely just copied someone else's 'magic formula' & it only works because they used the same model dish & they're located in the same general area.

reignschaos wrote: »

Looks like more time to be spent on a roof and climbing in and out windows

Mentioned a couple of times in this thread was the 'focal length' i.e. moving the LNB in & out, towards & away from the dish. I'd try that 1st, if you haven't already.

reignschaos

I tried the making changes to the focal length, but no joy. Ironically though with the bad weather coming in on sat afternoon, I was able to pick up TVP 1 & 2 for a while.

Thurston?

In your OP, you mentioned taking the LNB off the rail & pointing it up towards the top of the dish: I presume you also tried it positioned & pointing where it would be if the rail extended further? Is it right at the end of the rail as things stand?

reignschaos

Its about an inch from the End of the rail. From that inch to the exact end of fail before falling off there is no difference in terms of the TPs i was attempting to acquire ie the Signal or quality strength did not increase or decrease (no signal at all)

However as mentioned when I pointed the LNB upwards so that the face of the LNB is looking towards the top of the dish (rather than the middle) i was able to get more TPs and reception came in for the relevant Polish station.

Thurston?

Well, I've got as far as theorising can get me, I must have a play with my own (neglected) TD110 some of these days & see how I get on.

reignschaos

I noticed over the weekend from Friday, up to this evening Monday, nearly all the Polish TPs are coming in, Polsat 1 & 2, AXN, TVP 1 & 2

The signal strength is jumping but picture is good. I tool a look at the tree to see what leaves were left and they are still there :-)

Therefore I think its fair to say that the system is working (connections, cable etc) and the problem lies with the Dish configuration in terms of 13 being outside the 10 degress arc from focal at 26 and as such the TPs are in existence for receiving but very weak and will only come through on perfect weather conditions.

CiniO

I'm not that knowledgeable about satellite reception, but I used to have 60cm dish to receive all channels from "Cyfrowy Polsat" from Hotbird 13E and it worked no problem at good weather, but at cloudy days or hailstones, reception was affected.
I changed to 90cm dish, and it works no problem now.

I'm located in South West Mayo.