Another USA Gun Thread (special apperances by M16s, MRAPs & rocket launchers)

Harry Palmr

The creeping militarising of civil society continues apace in the land of the free.

School police departments across the US have taken advantage of free military surplus gear, stocking up on mine-resistant armoured vehicles, grenade launchers and scores of M16 rifles.

At least 26 school districts have participated in the Pentagon’s surplus program, which is not new but has come under scrutiny after police responded to protesters in Ferguson, Missouri, with teargas, armour-clad military trucks and riot gear.

The Los Angeles unified school district, the nation’s second-largest at 710 square miles with more than 900,000 students enrolled, said it would remove three grenade launchers it had acquired because they “are not essential life-saving items within the scope, duties and mission” of the district’s police force.

But the district would keep the 60 M16s and a military vehicle known as an MRAP used in Iraq and Afghanistan that was built to withstand mine blasts.

Law enforcement agencies around the country equipped themselves by turning to the Pentagon program, which the defence department has used to get rid of gear it no longer needs. Since the Columbine school shooting in 1999 school districts have increasingly participated.

Democratic congressman Adam Schiff said while there was a role for surplus equipment going to local police departments “it’s difficult to see what scenario would require a grenade launcher or a mine-resistant vehicle for a school police department”.

In Texas, Tina Veal-Gooch, executive director of public relations at Texarkana ISD, said the 2012 school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, led the district to acquire assault rifles and it had no plans to return them.

Full articles here http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/18/us-school-districts-given-free-machine-guns-and-grenade-launchers and

http://www.dailynews.com/government-and-politics/20140913/grenade-launchers-armored-vehicle-part-of-lausds-armory

Hard to get into the mid set of people who actually think armoured cars are part of policing/"protecting" children

Sunnyisland

Tis terrible,

Hope Scotland vote yes today.

GLaDOS

School police departments

As in police departments for individual schools? Is that a thing?

aaronjumper

ScienceNerd wrote: »

As in police departments for individual schools? Is that a thing?

No it's probably children tasked with maintaining law and order in their area. Teaches them about responsibility and hair triggers.

EDIT: Just took the time to read the articles. That is madness, why would they need mine resistant armoured vehicles?

frag420

ScienceNerd wrote: »

As in police departments for individual schools? Is that a thing?

All we had was a knob of a headmaster who went around banging knuckles with a copper tipped boxwood ruler, no need for police patrols in our school with that c*nt!!

Maximus Alexander

But cannabis is illegal. Funny old world eh?

Akrasia

ScienceNerd wrote: »

As in police departments for individual schools? Is that a thing?

Astoundingly, there is such a thing as a LASPT (Los Angeles School Police Department) and they actually have feckin machine guns
http://www.laspd.com/

America is a parody of itself.

BoJack Horseman

aaronjumper wrote: »

No it's probably children tasked with maintaining law and order in their area. Teaches them about responsibility and hair triggers.

The "hall monitor" sash doesn't carry the weight it used to.
Time to gun-up!

Akrasia

I'm just imagining a Die hard style situation where some terrorist puts bombs in schools and the cops outside are fighting over 'juristiction' when John McClain flashes his school security badge, sticks an Uzi in his belt and goes huntin bad guys

aaronjumper

ScienceNerd wrote: »

As in police departments for individual schools? Is that a thing?

Looks like I was wrong and it is a thing. Apologies.
Just when you think things can't get any sillier, people in charge of protecting schools are getting military grade gear.

Skylinehead

the MRAP, parked off campus, was acquired because the district could not afford to buy armoured vehicles

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

gandalf

Akrasia wrote: »

I'm just imagining a Die hard style situation where some terrorist puts bombs in schools and the cops outside are fighting over 'juristiction' when John McClain flashes his school security badge, sticks an Uzi in his belt and goes huntin bad guys

An Uzi, jaysus that's too lightweight. Sure he should be able to pick up a Mini-Gun at least from the Pentagon surplus program

Read a story the other day about a small towns sheriffs department getting an armoured car on this program and it had hardly any crime LOL

UCDVet

aaronjumper wrote: »

Looks like I was wrong and it is a thing. Apologies.
Just when you think things can't get any sillier, people in charge of protecting schools are getting military grade gear.

What do you do when a school shooter has military grade gear? Wait for him to run out of bullets and take a nap? Offer him milk and cookies?

HECK NO - you drive up in a tank and cap him.

Robbo

In before some Guns'n'Ammo reading sociopath explains at length how it's perfectly neccessary to hunt elk using a 14 megaton neutron bomb and that if he didn't keep polishing his Walmart bought Gauss Gun, the King of England would be annexing the **** out of his house.

shruikan2553

I'm more confused about schools needing there own police district.

Can peoe really not see there's a slight problem with needing that?

Sonics2k

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

But cannabis is illegal. Funny old world eh?

And Kinder Eggs. Those vicious bastards.

Potatoeman

UCDVet wrote: »

What do you do when a school shooter has military grade gear? Wait for him to run out of bullets and take a nap? Offer him milk and cookies?

HECK NO - you drive up in a tank and cap him.

Unless they go on a rampage in the tank.

GLaDOS

UCDVet wrote: »

What do you do when a school shooter has military grade gear? Wait for him to run out of bullets and take a nap? Offer him milk and cookies?

HECK NO - you drive up in a tank and cap him.

But then they get anti tank missiles and you're back to square one

shruikan2553

Potatoeman wrote: »

Unless they go on a rampage in the tank.

If we ban tanks what's to stop criminals having them?

gandalf

UCDVet wrote: »

What do you do when a school shooter has military grade gear? Wait for him to run out of bullets and take a nap? Offer him milk and cookies?

HECK NO - you drive up in a tank and cap him.

The problem is when you fight fire with fire everyone tends to get burnt. Especially true if everyone is armed with high velocity military grade firearms where bullets will pass through internal walls like a hot knife through butter.

Akrasia

gandalf wrote: »

The problem is when you fight fire with fire everyone tends to get burnt. Especially true if everyone is armed with high velocity military grade firearms where bullets will pass through internal walls like a hot knife through butter.

Well, from my experience of playing Battlefield Bad Company 2, when you've got someone holed up inside a building with guns and he won't come out. It's easiest to just get a tank and level the building.

gandalf

Akrasia wrote: »

Well, from my experience of playing Battlefield Bad Company 2, when you've got someone holed up inside a building with guns and he won't come out. It's easiest to just get a tank and level the building.

Hmmmm and if he is in a building full of hostages what then? Hellfire missile and chalk the hostages up to collateral damage

Gatling

gandalf wrote: »

Hmmmm and if he is in a building full of hostages what then? Hellfire missile and chalk the hostages up to collateral damage

Its the russian way

Kill everyone that way it makes taking hostages a futile exercise

Akrasia

gandalf wrote: »

Hmmmm and if he is in a building full of hostages what then? Hellfire missile and chalk the hostages up to collateral damage

Kill em all and let god decide.

The kids are probably all lost to Stockholm syndrome anyway

anncoates

I'm a conditional opponent of gun ownership as in I think gun control should be the norm for society but I'd love a big rifle to shoot burglars, door to door salesman, dogs in my garden etc.

SEPT 23 1989

they are just keeping up with what the American Militia groups have stocked up in their ammo dumps waiting for their time to shine

renegademaster

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The creeping militarising of civil society continues apace in the land of the free.







Full articles here http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/18/us-school-districts-given-free-machine-guns-and-grenade-launchers and

http://www.dailynews.com/government-and-politics/20140913/grenade-launchers-armored-vehicle-part-of-lausds-armory

Hard to get into the mid set of people who actually think armoured cars are part of policing/"protecting" children

sure what could possibly go wrong, nothing to see here :pac:

CrazyRabbit

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

But cannabis is illegal. Funny old world eh?

Any US citizen can also legally buy explosives. No kidding.
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Tannerite-Explosive-Target-Practice-Bombs-FBI-208528981.html

gandalf

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Any US citizen can also legally buy explosives. No kidding.
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Tannerite-Explosive-Target-Practice-Bombs-FBI-208528981.html

But if a burglar has a stick of dynamite I need one to defend my homestead against him

Wossack

gandalf wrote: »

But if a burglar has a stick of dynamite I need one to defend my homestead against him

and in a dynamite fight, the winner is the one who can throw the furthest - reckon they were mad to give up the grenade launchers :pac:

kylith

UCDVet wrote: »

What do you do when a school shooter has military grade gear? Wait for him to run out of bullets and take a nap? Offer him milk and cookies?

HECK NO - you drive up in a tank and cap him.

That's the problem, isn't it? Mentally unhinged students can get hold of semi automatic weapons, so the campus cops need to be able to take them out. How can Americans not see that this kind of thing will never end well?

gandalf

Hmmm this is what you need for "home defense"

UCDVet

kylith wrote: »

That's the problem, isn't it? Mentally unhinged students can get hold of semi automatic weapons, so the campus cops need to be able to take them out. How can Americans not see that this kind of thing will never end well?

There is no way to stop crazy people from doing crazy things. You can only take actions to avoid it. You can ban guns, but people will still break the law. I don't know of anything that has been successfully banned, anywhere. Cocaine is banned, but if you want it, you can get it.

Akrasia

UCDVet wrote: »

There is no way to stop crazy people from doing crazy things. You can only take actions to avoid it. You can ban guns, but people will still break the law. I don't know of anything that has been successfully banned, anywhere. Cocaine is banned, but if you want it, you can get it.

Ok, I would love to buy a M16 with an underslung rail and grenade launcher. I live in Ennis. Where would I go to get one?

Wossack

Akrasia wrote: »

Ok, I would love to buy a M16 with an underslung rail and grenade launcher. I live in Ennis. Where would I go to get one?

America?

Gatling

Akrasia wrote: »

Ok, I would love to buy a M16 with an underslung rail and grenade launcher. I live in Ennis. Where would I go to get one?

I can get you an airsoft one

Dr. Mantis Toboggan

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

But cannabis is illegal. Funny old world eh?

Wow. Tenuous connection.

ScumLord

aaronjumper wrote: »

EDIT: Just took the time to read the articles. That is madness, why would they need mine resistant armoured vehicles?

Because the American war machine has a load of them left over with no one to pick on. They would have sold them to some rebels but that seems to always go wrong for them.


The one good thing that seems to have come out of this is the better training for police forces. They have the best tools and proper training that gives them a confidence not to open fire at the slightest thing when they actually have to go into dangerous situations.

DLMA23

Akrasia wrote: »

Ok, I would love to buy a M16 with an underslung rail and grenade launcher. I live in Ennis. Where would I go to get one?

http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc/m16

DildoFaggins

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

But cannabis is illegal. Funny old world eh?

So are steroids.

All heil Guns, Smokes and Beer.

mad turnip

DLMA23 wrote: »

http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc/m16

19 thousand for an m16?

Didn't think they were this expensive o_O.

Witcher

mad turnip wrote: »

19 thousand for an m16?

Didn't think they were this expensive o_O.

They're fully automatic rifles, you can't purchase them new anymore so second hand ones are sold for thousands.

jill_valentine

ScumLord wrote: »

Because the American war machine has a load of them left over with no one to pick on. They would have sold them to some rebels but that seems to always go wrong for them.


The one good thing that seems to have come out of this is the better training for police forces. They have the best tools and proper training that gives them a confidence not to open fire at the slightest thing when they actually have to go into dangerous situations.

Actually, that doesn't seem to be the case. The surplus kit itself is available via post 9/11 programs, but the standard of training would cost extra time and money and does not seem to have kept pace at all. As one example, leaving aside the circumstances of the actual original shooting, the deployment of the big guns in Ferguson demonstrated a complete systemic failure in strategy that speaks of serious problems in that regard. Putting a sharpshooter on top of a Bearcat as part of a crowd control response is a statement that you do not understand what either of those things are actually meant for.

Police departments all over the states have been provided with hammers and lo and behold, all their problems are looking nail shaped.

Skylinehead

ScumLord wrote: »

The one good thing that seems to have come out of this is the better training for police forces. They have the best tools and proper training that gives them a confidence not to open fire at the slightest thing when they actually have to go into dangerous situations.

http://i.imgur.com/Lwxn1y6.jpg

Ferguson, MO. Why are they tooled up like they're in Fallujah? Why are they pointing automatic weapons at unarmed civilians they're supposed to serve? They don't look trained to me.

ScumLord

jill_valentine wrote: »

Actually, that doesn't seem to be the case. The surplus kit itself is available via post 9/11 programs, but the standard of training would cost extra time and money and does not seem to have kept pace at all.

The only reason I'm saying they're better trained is down to those swatting incidents. The police that break into those houses seem to be trained to a military standard of room clearing, no one got shot despite talking about COD before the police break in. I watched a vice documentary were the training seemed to be part of the process for receiving the new weapons. some of these weapon systems would be alien to a normal police officers so they must go through some sort of additional training just to be able to use them.

The money spent on training the police is probably a drop in the ocean compared to the money the police are going to have to spend maintaining the more advanced weapon systems. Just like the printer we buy is heavily subsidised because they know they can screw you on catridges long into the future.

ScumLord

Skylinehead wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/Lwxn1y6.jpg

Ferguson, MO. Why are they tooled up like they're in Fallujah? Why are they pointing automatic weapons at unarmed civilians they're supposed to serve? They don't look trained to me.

I'm sure they're trained on how to use the weapons but maybe their superiors aren't trained so well on when to use them.

DLMA23

mad turnip wrote: »

19 thousand for an m16?

Didn't think they were this expensive o_O.

Blay wrote: »

They're fully automatic rifles, you can't purchase them new anymore so second hand ones are sold for thousands.

They're also converted to .223cal for civilian use

Skylinehead

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm sure they're trained on how to use the weapons but maybe their superiors aren't trained so well on when to use them.

If they were trained, they'd know not to point the guns at people unless they intend to shoot them.

foggy_lad

The land of the free(as long as you can afford it) and home of the brave(as long as you have the firepower).


Thank fúck those bastards are thousands of miles away from here!

Maximus Alexander

Dr. Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Wow. Tenuous connection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8AIh2qoSnM

Victor

MRAP (bullet and grenade proof, bomb resistant), assault rifles (criminals using body armour and / or with their own military-grade weapons) and grenade launchers (tear gas, etc.) do have police roles, but are very much specialised pieces of equipment that should be available to large police departments, not local ones.

---

ScienceNerd wrote: »

As in police departments for individual schools? Is that a thing?

Some school districts have up to a million students. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_school_districts_in_the_United_States_by_enrollment

Some school districts may have only a single school. Individual schools in the USA tend to be much bigger than Irish schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_district

School districts are local governments with powers similar to that of a town or a county including taxation and eminent domain,

As most police in the USA are employed by the city or county police department and school districts are a parallel form of government to cities and counties, but operate over a different geographical area, they also have parallel police forces. School police only have powers on or immediately adjacent to school grounds and related matters.