Medical Centre - can they charge for this?

susi22

I am filling out a MED 1 form for the last four years and after contacting my local health centre to get receipts (after being advised to do this by the Revenue), they said they could give me a statement of my visits instead of individual receipts as it would be "too much work" (which qualifies to accompany my form - I had to ring and ask).

They then informed me I am to be charged 50euro for this.

Is this the norm or are they just really pissed off at me for asking them for this?

Fred Swanson

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schemingbohemia

Well you were already given receipts at the time of each appointment so you are creating extra work for them in order for you to get money back from Revenue. So the short answer is yes they can, it is also up to you to keep receipts and not need their assistance.

The chances of you being audited for a Med1 are very slim, so if you can remember the dates I would use that information and only seek the actual receipts if or when Revenue audit you.

susi22

You don't need to be audited, you can claim back money on your expenses. It's nothing to do with an audit. It's going back four years - my memory is good, but not that good.

Also, I was, on average, only handed a receipt 3 times out of every 10 I went there. Obviously, I would have been asking for and keeping receipts had I realised I could do this.

The revenue told me that this happens all the time and assured me it would not be a problem for my health centre. And, as the girl could bring up my details at the click of a button, while speaking to me, I'm assuming it's not going to take fifty euros' worth of work to press 'ctrl P'.

And just to clear it up for you Fred Swanson, I'll also be collecting it, saving them the price of an envelope and stamp. Still 'hardly excessive'? I'm not even saying I should be charged nothing, but I am very surprised at how expensive this is when you can, for example, get a copy of your birth certificate for 20 euros.

I truly wish I was as organised as everyone else here seems to be - oh to never have to ask for anything in retrospect and have your whole life filed away!!

db

Request it under the data protection act.

susi22

Would that actually work? I hadn't thought about that.

schemingbohemia

susi22 wrote: »

You don't need to be audited, you can claim back money on your expenses. It's nothing to do with an audit. It's going back four years - my memory is good, but not that good.

Also, I was, on average, only handed a receipt 3 times out of every 10 I went there. Obviously, I would have been asking for and keeping receipts had I realised I could do this.

The revenue told me that this happens all the time and assured me it would not be a problem for my health centre. And, as the girl could bring up my details at the click of a button, while speaking to me, I'm assuming it's not going to take fifty euros' worth of work to press 'ctrl P'.

And just to clear it up for you Fred Swanson, I'll also be collecting it, saving them the price of an envelope and stamp. Still 'hardly excessive'? I'm not even saying I should be charged nothing, but I am very surprised at how expensive this is when you can, for example, get a copy of your birth certificate for 20 euros.

I truly wish I was as organised as everyone else here seems to be - oh to never have to ask for anything in retrospect and have your whole life filed away!!

Sorry my point is that you don't need the receipts to make your claim to Revenue on the MED1 it's only if you are chosen for audit that you need to be able to prove the visits.

Obviously doesn't help if you don't have all the information in the first place.

I'd point out to the clinic that you weren't given receipts in the first place!

But as this is the legal section the answer is still that there is nothing illegal in what they are doing.

Cushie Butterfield

You don't need receipts to submit the Med1 form. In fact it specifically states on the form not to submit them but to keep them for six years in case Revenue have a query on your claim.

All you need for now is to know the amount you have paid them in total, which you can work out from the statement that they are prepared to give you detailing your number of visits.

Revenue wouldn't have a clue about what computer system the medical centre have in place - nor would anyone here on boards. It may not allow for the printing of duplicate receipts goinmg back four years. It may be the case that duplicate receipts have to be hand written. For all we know the system is integrated with their accounting system & it might only print a receipt during a financial transaction & be part of their end of day balance.

Why don't you just get the statement of dates from them & worry about the actual receipts if & when you need them, which in my experience is never. Once you are sure that you are claiming for the correct amount of visits you have nothing to worry about for now.

I doubt very much that receipts would come under the data protection act, though I'm open to correction on that.

Fred Swanson

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conorh91

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

I doubt very much that receipts would come under the data protection act, though I'm open to correction on that.

The OP would be entitled to a copy of her medical file/associated information on her. She may be charged a fee of not more than €6.35

Cushie Butterfield

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Yes, but the data that they provide under FOI would not include physical receipts - just that they paid/visited. They have already offered this to the OP in the form of a printout of number of visits.

Fred Swanson

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Cushie Butterfield

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes I was just about to edit my post to data protection but you got there before me!

Anyway the data that they provide under data protection act would not include physical receipts - just that they paid/visited. They have already offered this to the OP in the form of a printout of number of visits.

conorh91

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

Yes, but the data that they provide under FOI would not include physical receipts

The data should include a log of a patient's account with the Practice, which is essentially a catalogue of receipts.

Revenue tend to be pragmatic when considering the forms that a receipt may take. There's no particular template.

Cushie Butterfield

conorh91 wrote: »

The data should include a log of a patient's account with the Practice, which is essentially a catalogue of receipts.

Revenue tend to be pragmatic when considering the forms that a receipt may take. There's no particular template.

Usually a medical centre do not have an account for each patient. They tend to provide a walk-in or appointment service for patients requiring the services of (mainly) a GP. This is a PAYG scenario - not one that requires invoices being raised to be sent at a later date by a billing section/employee, or statements of account being issued on a regular basis, as there is no ''account'' as such.

Usually it's a much less sophisticated scenario whereby if a patient doesn't have a medical card or GP visit card they pay per visit on the day.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what the OP posted they have already been offered a printout of their visit history (which in all likelihood is all they would get in the case of a data protection request that would relate to what the OP requires) , & if individual duplicate receipts are required they will be charged €50.

Edited to add: The information that is available to the medical centre at glancing at a monitor may also not be clear as to whether the OP was actually there as a ''same complaint'' visit, or to recieve test results or any other non-chargeable event, so this is more than likely why they would charge €50 to issue duplicate receipts, as it may mean that the OP's medical file would have to be examined to see why they were there on each visit. They would also have to check & see that the OP wan't covered by a medical card at any stage. This would involve time, & as we all know time is money, especially when it's an out of the ordinary matter.

susi22

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

Usually a medical centre do not have an account for each patient. They tend to provide a walk-in or appointment service for patients requiring the services of (mainly) a GP. This is a PAYG scenario - not one that requires invoices being raised to be sent at a later date by a billing section/employee, or statements of account being issued on a regular basis, as there is no ''account'' as such.

Usually it's a much less sophisticated scenario whereby if a patient doesn't have a medical card or GP visit card they pay per visit on the day.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what the OP posted they have already been offered a printout of their visit history (which in all likelihood is all they would get in the case of a data protection request that would relate to what the OP requires) , & if individual duplicate receipts are required they will be charged €50.

Edited to add: The information that is available to the medical centre at glancing at a monitor may also not be clear as to whether the OP was actually there as a ''same complaint'' visit, or to recieve test results or any other non-chargeable event, so this is more than likely why they would charge €50 to issue duplicate receipts, as it may mean that the OP's medical file would have to be examined to see why they were there on each visit. They would also have to check & see that the OP wan't covered by a medical card at any stage. This would involve time, & as we all know time is money, especially when it's an out of the ordinary matter.

No, it's €50 for the statement of visits, not the duplicate of receipts. Very broad and general, not at all specific.

Cushie Butterfield

susi22 wrote: »

No, it's €50 for the statement of visits, not the duplicate of receipts. Very broad and general, not at all specific.

Oh, ok, I misunderstood this, so I can understand why you are annoyed.

I would do as was suggested earlier & request it under the data protection act.

susi22

Thanks to everyone for all the replies.

It's really hard as it's been my health centre since I was a baby and I know the doctors v well. That said the front desk staff just aren't that nice. Still very hard to challenge them as I am not confrontational at all. Hope I get more than €50 back now from revenue lol!

Definitely has taught me to keep receipts! I'll let you all know how I get on.

davo10

As a health care clinic owner I can assure you it is not a case of "move a mouse and click print". If you want a print out of your records, you are entitled to them for €6, if you want to send your entire medical history to revenue, so be it, I certainly wouldn't. The receipt is to be sent to a third party so cannot contain sensitive medical detail, it is date sensitive to the year you are claiming relief for and and in most cases each one must be dated and stamped. Put simply, the secretary/doctor must go through your chart, check dates and amounts paid, make sure there are no confidential details (like "test for STD €70 paid") , sign and stamp the receipts (to ensure they are not forged receipts). All this takes time for something you OP are responsible for.

And just to clarify, this not covered under the Data Protection Act.

susi22

Davo10 are you saying I'm entitled to it for 6 euro? Or do you mean that would be my entire medical records and therefore excessive information?

I understand what you're saying when you tell me I'm responsible, however I think I've been fairly repentant in my posts. Had I known this were possible, I'd have been keeping the receipts myself obviously. I'm now paying 50 euro for the privilege, and if it were something that health centre staff weren't allowed / able to do, then I'm sure Revenue wouldn't be advising me to take this route. It may be inconvenient but who doesn't get asked to do something irritating at work? I know I certainly do. And it's not like I'm asking them to do it out of the goodness of their own hearts.

davo10

susi22 wrote: »

Davo10 are you saying I'm entitled to it for 6 euro? Or do you mean that would be my entire medical records and therefore excessive information?

I understand what you're saying when you tell me I'm responsible, however I think I've been fairly repentant in my posts. Had I known this were possible, I'd have been keeping the receipts myself obviously. I'm now paying 50 euro for the privilege, and if it were something that health centre staff weren't allowed / able to do, then I'm sure Revenue wouldn't be advising me to take this route. It may be inconvenient but who doesn't get asked to do something irritating at work? I know I certainly do. And it's not like I'm asking them to do it out of the goodness of their own hearts.

You are entitled to an unredacted copy of your notes for €6.35, literally they photocopy written notes or print digital notes. If you want to send those to revenue, that is your choice as they are your property.

If on the other hand you request them to provide receipts which require omission of sensitive information, in other words they are providing an additional service beyond simply copying/printing, then you do indeed pay for the privilege as they are having to do additional administrative work which is above and beyond treating your medical needs.

It is not the clinics fault you didn't know you could get tax relief on medical expenses nor that you didn't keep your receipts. Revenue are asking for receipts, not details if what you paid for, that is the very reason why "point and click" doesn't work, your medical details need to be redacted.

Put simply, this is an inconvenience and a pain in the arse for a busy secretary. They probably take the view that if you weren't bothered to keep your receipts, why should they spend part of their day providing this service to you for free.

schemingbohemia

So she can get copies of all her records under the Data Protection Act for €6 and then redact them herself, if (and it's a big if) she's chosen for audit. Seems like a good option.

OP remember you do not need to submit any copies of receipts with your claim, all you need is them to back up your claim if you're chosen for audit.

Ghekko

Davo I wrote to my medical centre for a copy of my file asking them to contact me if a fee was required. I got a call asking for my new gp address so they could send them on. When I queried why they couldn't be sent to me I was told by receptionist she would check with the gp there. Can you confirm if I am indeed entitled to a copy of my medical file myself?

Sorry for hijacking thead😳

conorh91

Ghekko wrote: »

Davo I wrote to my medical centre for a copy of my file asking them to contact me if a fee was required. I got a call asking for my new gp address so they could send them on. When I queried why they couldn't be sent to me I was told by receptionist she would check with the gp there. Can you confirm if I am indeed entitled to a copy of my medical file myself?

Most people will be entitled to the records, but the mechanism may vary.

For example, if you are a GMS patient or a maternity patient, it may become an FOI query. Files in respect of those patients can be transferred between the relevant GPs. I don't think Data Protection directly covers GMS (i.e. HSE) patient queries, but I'm sure someone else will be able to clarify that.

RainyDay

conorh91 wrote: »

I don't think Data Protection directly covers GMS (i.e. HSE) patient queries, but I'm sure someone else will be able to clarify that.

There are very few exceptions to Data Protection legislation. Most relate to Gardai/security. I'm pretty sure that there are no HSE/GMS exceptions.

conorh91

RainyDay wrote: »

There are very few exceptions to Data Protection legislation. Most relate to Gardai/security. I'm pretty sure that there are no HSE/GMS exceptions.

Sorry, to clarify, what I mean is I don't think a GP is a data controller in respect of medical card GMS and maternity patients. In that sense, I don't think data protection creates an obligation for GPs to release information to the patient or former patient of such a scheme.

Ghekko

I would have been a medical card holder as a child but not in adult years. I never thought they wouldn't just send me a copy of my file as I had obtained a file from maternity hospital previously. Receptionist was vague when I asked for a copy for myself and told me she would ask the gp and if she was allowed she would send it to me. I haven't told my current gp that I even requested it. He will be wondering why on earth it is landing on his desk tomorrow��.

conorh91

Ghekko wrote: »

I would have been a medical card holder as a child but not in adult years. I never thought they wouldn't just send me a copy of my file as I had obtained a file from maternity hospital previously.

There's not necessarily any issue in obtaining the files, the question is who has the authority to release them. I would have thought it's the HSE (in respect of the GMS/ maternity files), but it might be your current GP. It would seem unlikely to be former GPs.

RainyDay

conorh91 wrote: »

Sorry, to clarify, what I mean is I don't think a GP is a data controller in respect of medical card GMS and maternity patients. In that sense, I don't think data protection creates an obligation for GPs to release information to the patient or former patient of such a scheme.

The patient's contract is with the GP, not with the HSE/GMS. The HSE/GMS contracts with the GP.

So if the GP has patient data, they are the data controller, and they provide the copy. The HSE wouldn't have detailed information on every patient.

conorh91

RainyDay wrote: »

The patient's contract is with the GP, not with the HSE/GMS. The HSE/GMS contracts with the GP.

This is an obligation created by a statutory provision, it isn't a question of contract. My understanding is that the GMS/ maternity patient has their data controlled by the HSE, even if their current GP is acting as a deputy of the HSE by virtue of his place on the GMS scheme.

susi22

Davo10 I am paying 50 euro. So they're not doing it for free.

Tough luck if a secretary (or indeed anyone) has to provide a service for which they are paid. Such is the nature of work. AND it's not that I couldn't be bothered, I wasn't aware. Yes, you're right, that is my mistake, but what else can I do at this stage? Say, "Oh no, I'd better not trouble those secretarial staff to do some clerical work I'm paying for, they might think it's a pain in the arse," and not claim back what I'm owed?

Seriously, all I can do at this point in time is what Revenue suggested. I've said, at length, this is my fault and have apologised profusely to the staff at the health centre for doing so. I simply came on here to find out if this is the norm for these charges as such pricelists are not very well publicised. If it is the norm, then so be it. That's fine. Thanks for the lecture though. I feel thoroughly chastened.

Corruptedmorals

Wow 50 is a bit of a joke really. I do this quite frequently in my job, receptionist/secretary in an extremely busy and overwhelmed clinic. It takes 2 minutes. Click receipts, find the patient, leave dates open so it brings up all receipts, print. Of course, not all software is as straightforward. Even so, I'm surprised they would charge at all and the amount is over the top in my view.

It may be worth calling in at a quiet time for the centre, explaining in person rather than over the phone. You might have more luck with a reasoned, personal approach.