NPPR

giri

Hi all, Just a quickie.
Does anyone know what exactly the consequences are of not paying the NPPR?, I probably owe the 7230 penalty charge (cant afford to pay it). No idea it ever existed till yesterday as I live in Asia.

I know about the 12 years thing where it stays on the property till sale etc. And from what I understand, the 7230 is now frozen. It cant go up? Am I correct?

Are there any other implications?

I couldnt sell for 12 years anyway (too much negative equity).

Thanks all, it seems nobody seems to have an certain answer on this.

niterain84

Theres a whole thread about this if you scroll down a bit further on the Australia forum.

Its called " Own a house in Ireland and not paid NPPR?.. warning "

giri

Thanks, I read that entire thread, but they only touched on non payment. I also asked the question on the thread but nobody replied, so I figured I'd try start a new one. Thanks though.

Long Gone

In the unlikely event that you're in any way interested in my views on the subject, see my last post on the other thread. Your situation sounds very similar to mine - I'm also an old Asian hand.....;)

giri

Thanks 'long gone' , I shall have a look now.

giri

Long Gone wrote: »

In the unlikely event that you're in any way interested in my views on the subject, see my last post on the other thread. Your situation sounds very similar to mine - I'm also an old Asian hand.....;)

Yup, similar indeed, I just read it. So what do you think? I just skyped the council anonymously to try and clarify any further penalties beyond the 7230. She said it was frozen, however it talks about prosecution on their site, what that means, well, I dont know. Anyway, the reason I found out is because an old landlord of mine in London emailed to say he received a letter from them a couple of weeks ago but he returned it to sender.

The way I look at it is, if its 12 years then it doesnt impact me, couldnt sell anyway. If there's prosecution etc, hmm, maybe a bit more serious.

I guess now the question is, contact them or not? HMMMMMM!

The more I read about these crappy unfair taxes the more it turns me off the idea of ever returning there. A bit like yourself. I just feel sorry for the people there who have to suffer those idiots making the rules.

Long Gone

giri wrote: »

I guess now the question is, contact them or not? .

I understand what your saying - It's a personal decision obviously, but I certainly have no intention of making any contact with them whatsoever. I completely reject this unfair and penal tax and refuse to have anything to do with it. You've probably seen that I've taken some stick from some people on the other forum (not that I care ), but I have no respect for their views. One of them even says that he worked on "administration of collecting the NPPR charge" before he left Ireland ! - What a surprise ! -So it's not as if he can be considered an unbiased commentator on the subject ! :rolleyes: He had the audacity to say that whatever I say people should do the opposite ! :eek: - That would be to just meekly pay up the totally outrageous 7000 Euros plus without any questioning - Yeah, great advice, not.

Long Gone

giri wrote: »

An old landlord of mine in London emailed to say he received a letter from them a couple of weeks ago but he returned it to sender...

I lived in London when Maggie Thatcher tried to introduce the Poll Tax. A lot of people returned the demand letters to sender marked "Can't Pay, W'ont Pay". I returned mine to sender marked "Can Pay, Won't Pay" ! .:D

giri

Ha, I like it, 'Cant pay, won't pay'.

I reread that other thread, wow, sure got a bit heated. But you're right, the whole thing is a scam. But you know what will happen about it, nothing. It's so typical of Ireland to do something like this, people will moan and complain about it, but in the end the government will net a fortune. And nobody will do anything.

In any other country in europe, or most of the developed world, there'd be war over something like this, and it would end. Not in Ireland.

Can't pay, wont pay!! the only answer.

catbear

giri wrote: »

Ha, I like it, 'Cant pay, won't pay'.

I reread that other thread, wow, sure got a bit heated. But you're right, the whole thing is a scam. But you know what will happen about it, nothing. It's so typical of Ireland to do something like this, people will moan and complain about it, but in the end the government will net a fortune. And nobody will do anything.

In any other country in europe, or most of the developed world, there'd be war over something like this, and it would end. Not in Ireland.

Can't pay, wont pay!! the only answer.

Property taxes and charges are common throughout the world. In western economies Ireland was exceptional in not having any however stampduty was paid and I don't recall protests about that.

giri

I cant be bothered replying to that properly. Anyway I'm not arguing the tax, its the way its being handled and the penalties. That certainly wouldn't happen elsewhere, and this is the my 9th country I've lived, each for more than a year.

Peregrinus

Yes, in other countries the tax authorities would simply have seized your property and auctioned it by now.

sin_city

catbear wrote: »

Property taxes and charges are common throughout the world. In western economies Ireland was exceptional in not having any however stampduty was paid and I don't recall protests about that.

Slavery used to be common throughout the world also.

catbear

sin_city wrote: »

Slavery used to be common throughout the world also.

oh woe is me shackled with the oppression of social responsibility.

sin_city

catbear wrote: »

oh woe is me shackled with the oppression of social responsibility.

Social responsibility?

It's pretty simple, there are laws to prevent theft and murder which are just and then there are laws which raise taxes to give money to those collecting interest from the state and so on.

Some laws are not right....and they get repealed eventually.

This (and slavery) in my opinion are and were wrong.

I applaud anyone who tells the government to go you know where on this issue.

Peregrinus

The point is that giri's claim, in post #9, was that "in any other country in europe, or most of the developed world, there'd be war over something like this, and it would end. Not in Ireland."

In the real world, the actual facts are that most developed countries - including Australia - have property taxes that are many times heavier than the NPPR, and that are collected much more vigorously.

Although giri has lived in nine other countries, she hasn't noticed this - presumably, because she has never owned property in any of them.

Giri is discouraged from returning to Ireland by the prospect of having to pay property tax. In fact, she can live anywhere she likes and avoid liability to property tax by simply not owning any property. If she aspires to own property, however, she'll find that as far as tax cost goes Ireland is one of the cheapest places in the developed world to do it.

catbear

sin_city wrote: »

This (and slavery) in my opinion are and were wrong.

You equated taxation with slavery.

@peregrinus. I couldn't have said it better. Some people expect to be able to be absent from a society yet expect that society to maintain the basic public services for their rented property without paying charges.

Pity the poor absentee landlord.

NIMAN

Some people are just of the belief that Ireland is a terrible place where the Gov rob the citizens, yet every other country in the world does things the right way.

Ireland is no worse than most countries in the world, and indeed quite cheap compared to many others when it comes to taxing people.

Don't pay the charge if you don't want to, but suffer the consequences and don't moan when you have to.

Did none of your family members mention the NPPR to you at all? It was very widely reported over here when it arrived.

sin_city

NIMAN wrote: »

Some people are just of the belief that Ireland is a terrible place where the Gov rob the citizens, yet every other country in the world does things the right way.

Ireland is no worse than most countries in the world, and indeed quite cheap compared to many others when it comes to taxing people.

Don't pay the charge if you don't want to, but suffer the consequences and don't moan when you have to.

Did none of your family members mention the NPPR to you at all? It was very widely reported over here when it arrived.

I'm not disagreeing with the situation.

I am applauding does who the balls to stand up for what is right.

You know these people are like those who didn't pay the rent to Captain Boycott....I really don't see the difference

For the record, Ireland is having to tax its citizens to pay for the debts of private corporations(Banks) that happen to be Irish.

Things can change. Thankfully the Liberals did away with the Carbon tax here. Maybe we can get some politicians to work for the people instead of the big banks in the future.

Esel

The penalties for not having paid in/on time are totally outrageous, and would probably be struck down if challenged in court.

Compare with the household charge, or whatever it was called.

How dafuq does €200 per year suddenly become €7k+ after five years? Answer me that, Joe.

Peregrinus

sin_city wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with the situation.

I am applauding does who the balls to stand up for what is right.

You know these people are like those who didn't pay the rent to Captain Boycott....I really don't see the difference

But giri didn't refuse to pay the NPPR as a protest. She failed to pay it because she wasn't sufficiently interested in her property in Ireland to find out what she needed to do to look after it and manage it as a responsible owner should.

Now that she has found out, she's attempting to turn her continuing reluctance to pay into a grand stand of principle. But her principle is still erected on a foundation of profound ignorance; she genuinely thinks Ireland is unusual in levying property taxes, when the fact is that Ireland is unusual in levying such low property taxes.

sin_city wrote: »

For the record, Ireland is having to tax its citizens to pay for the debts of private corporations(Banks) that happen to be Irish.

Things can change. Thankfully the Liberals did away with the Carbon tax here. Maybe we can get some politicians to work for the people instead of the big banks in the future.

But the Liberals who do the bidding of the powerful corporate interests who oppose the carbon tax are hardly likely candidates for the job, are they?

NIMAN

sin_city wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with the situation.

I am applauding does who the balls to stand up for what is right.

You know these people are like those who didn't pay the rent to Captain Boycott....I really don't see the difference

For the record, Ireland is having to tax its citizens to pay for the debts of private corporations(Banks) that happen to be Irish.

Things can change. Thankfully the Liberals did away with the Carbon tax here. Maybe we can get some politicians to work for the people instead of the big banks in the future.

If you want to stand up and not pay, then again that's your prerogative, but the Gov will more than likely get the money from you one way or the other.

Over recent years we had the lefties telling folk not to pay up the household charge, to be disobedient and ignore the Gov. Plenty of people did and then the Gov got Revenue to take it from your wages! NExt the radio shows are full of moaners complaining about the money being taken, and of course asking where are all the politicians who told them not to pay?

Its your call. Myself, I have paid both HC and NPPR over recent years, and am just glad that I don't live back in NI where my family do, and have to pay £1200 annually for a 3 bed semi for rates.

Esel

Peregrinus wrote: »

...Ireland is unusual in levying property taxes, when the fact is that Ireland is unusual in levying such low property taxes.

Yeah, low at the start maybe, but the current penalties do not augur well for the body politic.

Peregrinus

The penalties are there as an enforcement mechanism. The calculation was, I think, that if we make the penalties absolutely savage by comparison with the tax itself, that gives peopel a powerful incentive to get themselves in gear and comply in a timely way. And that will save us having to gear up, compile a database of properties, and establish and operate a system for collecting the tax in a proactive way, all of which would cost money.

It hasn't worked, obviously.

The likely way forward is:

1. The basic amount of the tax will tend to rise, and the base to broaden. By almost completely eschewing property taxes, Ireland has given itself a badly unbalanced tax base, and the problem of this is highlighted when you have a property market slump and the one property tax you do have - stamp duty - falls to negligible levels, because there are so few property transactions happening. The pressure on income taxes and expenditure taxes is phenomenal in that circumstance. So, politically difficult as it will be, Ireland will catch up with the rest of the world and levy property taxes which bear some realistic relationship to the benefits property owners get from public expenditure.

2. The swinging penalties will go. They are not working to collect the tax, and are causing a massive sense of grievance. Instead, unpaid property taxes will become a charge on the land. The state will then have the option of (a) waiting until the land is sold, and collecting the unpaid taxes plus interest and (more modest) penalties at that point, or (b) taking action to foreclose, auction the land, and settle the tax liablity out of the proceeds.

sin_city

NIMAN wrote: »

If you want to stand up and not pay, then again that's your prerogative, but the Gov will more than likely get the money from you one way or the other.

Over recent years we had the lefties telling folk not to pay up the household charge, to be disobedient and ignore the Gov. Plenty of people did and then the Gov got Revenue to take it from your wages! NExt the radio shows are full of moaners complaining about the money being taken, and of course asking where are all the politicians who told them not to pay?

Its your call. Myself, I have paid both HC and NPPR over recent years, and am just glad that I don't live back in NI where my family do, and have to pay £1200 annually for a 3 bed semi for rates.

Good for you. I'm no leftie. Money well spent I guess.

catbear

sin_city wrote: »

Things can change. Thankfully the Liberals did away with the Carbon tax here. Maybe we can get some politicians to work for the people instead of the big banks in the future.

Yeah, ok..........

sin_city

@catbear
Making little of this thread where some people are having to fork out 7000 euros is quite disgusting

catbear

sin_city wrote: »

@catbear
Making little of this thread where some people are having to fork out 7000 euros is quite disgusting

sin_city wrote:

Good for you. I'm no leftie. Money well spent I guess.

Right so.......I'll leave it there.

sin_city

I think you should leave it there.

I was responding to a previous post you...your two previous posts where snide and snarly.

catbear

sin_city wrote: »

I was responding to a previous post you...your two previous posts where snide and snarly.

No, this is snide and snarly.

Esel

It's a bit late for popcorn here, otherwise...

Long Gone

Peregrinus wrote: »

In the real world, the actual facts are that most developed countries - including Australia - have property taxes that are many times heavier than the NPPR, and that are collected much more vigorously. .

The issue is not a general one regarding property tax. The issue, and the subject of this thread is specifically NPPR - An unfair, penal tax imposed on people who owned property which was not their Principal Residence. This disproportionately affected Irish emigrants who have been forced to emigrate but have retained property in Ireland which they consequently cannot live in as their primary residence. Clear enough for you so far ? ?

Peregrinus wrote: »

As far as tax cost goes Ireland is one of the cheapest places in the developed world to do it.

That is absolute and complete Horlicks ! :rolleyes: Corporation Tax in Ireland may be low but in terms of personal taxation Ireland is internationally recognised as being very much a high taxation country - The basic rates of taxation are high, then on top of that you have levies, high VAT and a whole meriad of stealth taxes. The reason ? - They need to service and try to pay off some of the huge national debt. Ireland is not only completely broke but up to it's eyeballs in debt.

Long Gone

catbear wrote: »

@peregrinus. I couldn't have said it better. Some people expect to be able to be absent from a society yet expect that society to maintain the basic public services for their rented property without paying charges.

Rubbish ! :rolleyes: This thread is specifically about the now abolished NPPR - An unfair and penal tax.

Landlords are now paying local property tax and tax on their rental income. Tenants are paying water charges and charges for other services.

Esel

Long Gone wrote: »

Rubbish ! :rolleyes: This thread is specifically about the now abolished NPPR - An unfair and penal tax.

The tax itself was very reasonable - it is only the penalties that are penal.

Little comfort, I know, for people who for whatever reason let the arrears build to the current monstrous levels (€4K+ / €7K+).

I am not affected, but I really hope those charges above are challenged and struck down somehow.

Peregrinus

Long Gone wrote: »

The issue is not a general one regarding property tax. The issue, and the subject of this thread is specifically NPPR - An unfair, penal tax imposed on people who owned property which was not their Principal Residence. This disproportionately affected Irish emigrants who have been forced to emigrate but have retained property in Ireland which they consequently cannot live in as their primary residence. Clear enough for you so far ? ?

It may be true that the NPPR disproportionately affects emigrants. On the other hand, it only affects those who retain property in Ireland, and who therefore continue to benefit from Irish public expenditure.

Long Gone wrote: »

That is absolute and complete Horlicks ! :rolleyes: Corporation Tax in Ireland may be low but in terms of personal taxation Ireland is internationally recognised as being very much a high taxation country - The basic rates of taxation are high, then on top of that you have levies, high VAT and a whole meriad of stealth taxes. The reason ? - They need to service and try to pay off some of the huge national debt. Ireland is not only completely broke but up to it's eyeballs in debt.

What I said was that the tax cost of owning property in Ireland is extremely low by comparison with other countries, and this is true. If you think personal income taxes are too high, do you not also think that this might be in some way connected with Ireland's extremely narrow tax base, which is partly the result of having practically no property taxes?

In any event, your perception about Irish income tax rates is not entirely true. During the boom years, Ireland was at the lower end of the scale for personal income tax rates, relative to other OECD countries. Now, we've moved up a bit, but we're still well below the OECD average. If you want high personal taxes you need to go to France, Sweden or Japan. That we suffer high income tax is one of the national myths that we fondly cherish about ourselves but, actually, it hasn't been true since the early 1990s.

Long Gone

Peregrinus wrote: »

What I said was that the tax cost of owning property in Ireland is extremely low by comparison with other countries, and this is true.

That might be what you meant, but it is certainly not what you said in your post (which I quoted)...

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you think personal income taxes are too high, do you not also think that this might be in some way connected with Ireland's extremely narrow tax base, which is partly the result of having practically no property taxes?.

It's due to the national debt, too few taxpayers and too many hangers on and parasites living off them. It's also due to government overspending and waste on a massive scale.

Peregrinus wrote: »

In any event, your perception about Irish income tax rates is not entirely true. During the boom years, Ireland was at the lower end of the scale for personal income tax rates, relative to other OECD countries. Now, we've moved up a bit, but we're still well below the OECD average. If you want high personal taxes you need to go to France, Sweden or Japan. That we suffer high income tax is one of the national myths that we fondly cherish about ourselves but, actually, it hasn't been true since the early 1990s.

Not true. Basic personal taxation rates are extremely deceptive. Irish taxpayers are hit by a whole range of stealth taxes now - The effective taxation rate on Irish taxpayers is at the high end of the OECD countries. http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-database.htm#OtherTaxBurden How could it be otherwise given the enormous debts that Irish taxpayers have been saddled with.

Peregrinus

Long Gone wrote: »

That might be what you meant, but it is certainly not what you said in your post (which I quoted)...

What I said in my post was:

Peregrinus wrote: »

Giri is discouraged from returning to Ireland by the prospect of having to pay property tax. In fact, she can live anywhere she likes and avoid liability to property tax by simply not owning any property. If she aspires to own property, however, she'll find that as far as tax cost goes Ireland is one of the cheapest places in the developed world to do it.

In quoting my post, you edited out all references to property tax and owning property. In its unedited version, however, my claim is very clearly a claim about the tax cost of owning property.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not true. Basic personal taxation rates are extremely deceptive. Irish taxpayers are hit by a whole range of stealth taxes now - The effective taxation rate on Irish taxpayers is at the high end of the OECD countries. http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/tax-database.htm#OtherTaxBurden How could it be otherwise given the enormous debts that Irish taxpayers have been saddled with.

I don’t know that the data you link to really helps your case, Long Gone. When I check the “All-in average personal income tax rates at average wage by family type” table, and compare the position of a one-earner family with two children, I find that the highest tax rate is in in Denmark (34.6%), the lowest is in the Czech Republic (5.5%) and Ireland (11.1%) is well down towards the bottom - we’re 28th out of 35. The all-in rates measured in the table “include income tax and employee social security contributions, as well as total marginal and average personal 'tax wedges' which in addition include employer social security contributions”.

Now, granted you might get radically different results if you look at single taxpayers, or at childless couples, or at people on other than average earnings, but that’s not my impression from a quick look at the tables.

Long Gone

Peregrinus wrote: »

In quoting my post, you edited out all references to property tax and owning property. In its unedited version, however, my claim is very clearly a claim about the tax cost of owning property.

Not so - In fact it was not clear at all. In your post you claimed that tax was low in Ireland. Read your own original post.

This entire thread is about NPPR Tax and owning property, but people reading your post are not mind readers as regards what you actually meant - Your claim that it was obvious that the tax you were referring to was property tax and not tax in general (which includes personal taxation) holds no water whatsoever to any impartial unbiased observer.

Peregrinus

Long Gone wrote: »

Not so - In fact it was not clear at all. In your post you claimed that tax was low in Ireland. Read your own original post.

I have reread my original post,and I quoted it above. Let me quote it again, this time in full, and helpfully emphasising the bits you are overlooking:

Peregrinus wrote: »

The point is that giri's claim, in post #9, was that "in any other country in europe, or most of the developed world, there'd be war over something like this, and it would end. Not in Ireland."

In the real world, the actual facts are that most developed countries - including Australia - have property taxes that are many times heavier than the NPPR, and that are collected much more vigorously.

Although giri has lived in nine other countries, she hasn't noticed this - presumably, because she has never owned property in any of them.

Giri is discouraged from returning to Ireland by the prospect of having to pay property tax. In fact, she can live anywhere she likes and avoid liability to property tax by simply not owning any property. If she aspires to own property, however, she'll find that as far as tax cost goes Ireland is one of the cheapest places in the developed world to do it.

It's a post about property tax. I honestly couldn't see how it could be more clearly about property tax than it already is.

donaghs

Anyone successfully appeal or reduce an NPPR charge?