is extensive the way forward for beef?

Muckit

Many of the top beef farmers are loosing money. Fact. Everything may look rosey from the road, but the enterprise isn't viable.

It's long been known that finishers are at a loosing game and the worst of the bunch. But now sucklers aren't far behind. Robin Talbot in the farming indo today is even eating into his sfp. Is the death kneal of intensive beef being sounded loud and clear?

Can this or will this continue?
We've been accused of being 'moaning Michaels' by others on here in alternative enterprises. But would they not feel the same if the milk rug was pulled from under their feet?

Should we batten down the hatches? Reduce numbers, Spend sweet fa and try hold on to what little we can? Half a loaf is better than no bread. Instead of killing ourselves for nothing.

Opinions please! :-)

blue5000

Last year was a tough year, no matter what system you farmed. Max weight gain from grass is the key. If you go extensive output suffers. Extensive only works on a large land base. Most Irish farms aren't big enough to go extensive.

_Brian

blue5000 wrote: »

Last year was a tough year, no matter what system you farmed. Max weight gain from grass is the key. If you go extensive output suffers. Extensive only works on a large land base. Most Irish farms aren't big enough to go extensive.

But surely this year was near a top year from gaining weight from grass and most lads still aren't seeing its going to be a prosperous year..

Birdnuts

I think going extensive has some merits since producing ever more animals in a depressed market isn't going to make things any better for the averge beef farmer. At the end of the day beef is a commodity the same as any other. What does OPEC do when oil prices fall?? - cut back hard on production until prices recover to profitable levels for the primary producer. That's why I think harvest 2020 is based on seriously flawed economics that take no account of likely market conditions. The high output low margin model that the Dept and Teagasc appear to be wedded to has failed badly in the case of pigs and poultry so the idea that beef will somehow buck this trend appears to be rather fancifull IMHO

Muckit

blue5000 wrote: »

Last year was a tough year, no matter what system you farmed. Max weight gain from grass is the key. If you go extensive output suffers. Extensive only works on a large land base. Most Irish farms aren't big enough to go extensive.

I think you are missing the point. You are linking output to profit, which you think would be logical. But that's what l'm saying, or rather that's what Robin was saying. Here he is in the top 15% for breeding but he's still eating into his sfp. He has a high stocking rate which again would lead to high output.

But although he has fat cattle, he hasn't a fat wallet - do you get me?

He is loosing some of sfp because he's 'farming.' If he kept for example 20 bullocks he'd probably be financial better off this year. As he'd get to keep his sfp.

It's a sad state of affairs.

AP2014

Muckit wrote: »

Many of the top beef farmers are loosing money. Fact. Everything may look rosey from the road, but the enterprise isn't viable.

It's long been known that finishers are at a loosing game and the worst of the bunch. But now sucklers aren't far behind. Robin Talbot in the farming indo today is even eating into his sfp. Is the death kneal of intensive beef being sounded loud and clear?

Can this or will this continue?
We've been accused of being 'moaning Michaels' by others on here in alternative enterprises. But would they not feel the same if the milk rug was pulled from under their feet?

Should we batten down the hatches? Reduce numbers, Spend sweet fa and try hold on to what little we can? Half a loaf is better than no bread. Instead of killing ourselves for nothing.

Opinions please! :-)

Think your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. Why are lads killing themselves? So the factories and supermarkets can gain and they have to start eating into their SFP?

I think lads need to start asking themselves serious questions. No one should be eating into their SFP. I see lads around me with super fences, 4 rows of barbed wire and stakes every 3 yards. I understand if they were by a roadway but alot of the time it's their field next door. Can't understand it.

leg wax

AP2014 wrote: »

Think your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. Why are lads killing themselves? So the factories and supermarkets can gain and they have to start eating into their SFP?

I think lads need to start asking themselves serious questions. No one should be eating into their SFP. I see lads around me with super fences, 4 rows of barbed wire and stakes every 3 yards. I understand if they were by a roadway but alot of the time it's their field next door. Can't understand it.

you must be some **** of a neigbour

AP2014

leg wax wrote: »

you must be some **** of a neigbour

Did you read my post? They have 4 rows of wire between their own fields. I take care of my own fences and neighbours never have a problem with me.

I am trying to highlight inefficient spending. Please don't be an a/hole and drag the thread down.

Cattlepen

I definitely think it's the way to go muckit. It's definitely the way I'm going. I used to think it was sacreligeous not to getting the max from the land I had but my attitude has changed. The exchange for the cost of inputs in relation to what we are getting for product is to well out of sync to change anytime soon. Sfp is going into an account and not goin to be used on farm anymore. Before sfp, I used to keep a certain % of headage payments for on farm investment but cattle left money aswell back then. Extensive will be my system from now on.
On the point the other man made about fences, you seem to be knocking the man for putting up a permanent fence that he won't need to look at for 15 to 20 years??? Sounds like a better plan than a Mickey Mouse job you will be tipping at every year for the rest of your life

Miname

Cattlepen wrote: »

I definitely think it's the way to go muckit. It's definitely the way I'm going. I used to think it was sacreligeous not to getting the max from the land I had but my attitude has changed. The exchange for the cost of inputs in relation to what we are getting for product is to well out of sync to change anytime soon. Sfp is going into an account and not goin to be used on farm anymore. Before sfp, I used to keep a certain % of headage payments for on farm investment but cattle left money aswell back then. Extensive will be my system from now on.
On the point the other man made about fences, you seem to be knocking the man for putting up a permanent fence that he won't need to look at for 15 to 20 years??? Sounds like a better plan than a Mickey Mouse job you will be tipping at every year for the rest of your life

he doesnt do any fencing, going by another thread.

Miname

extensive may seem like the best option at the moment, but i really do think its going to pay off to push on that bit. once numbers are dropped its very hard to lift them back again, maintainance and even interest in what your doing is going to suffer imo. every business gets a bad run every now and then, although saying that the more lads that go extensive the less cattle there will be and hopefully there will be a better turn in them. The sfp isnt going to be here forever.

visatorro

Dairy farmer here, seem to find more lads with 30/40 acres have gone away from buying continental stock and buying cheaper weaned calves from a dairy herd, lightly stock the land, and hold what they have. If the stock leave a few euro well and good. These would mostly be parttime farmers

Limestone Cowboy

Fairly extensive here with a large land base and sucklers. Definitely not losing anything at the moment but would prefer to be pushing things a bit more. Hard to know what to do to be honest. It's hard to justify any big investment in beef at the moment so I'll try and do what I am doing better and see what happens over the next few years.

just do it

Milk; top top quality weanlings for boat; or extensive organic and milk the grants

just do it

Then if considering extensive organic -> mixed sheep and traditional breed cattle that finish off grass in late summer of 2nd year. With that mixed enterprise it's still possible to have good grassland management.

severeoversteer

did you see hoeys from country crest with the new intensive finishing unit,

said they were losing €350 a head for each beast they produce
and they are using some of their beef for the business

im at it a while and steers weren't losing that per head on my farm, which is proof that grass based is best

blue5000

Muckit wrote: »

I think you are missing the point. You are linking output to profit, which you think would be logical. But that's what l'm saying, or rather that's what Robin was saying. Here he is in the top 15% for breeding but he's still eating into his sfp. He has a high stocking rate which again would lead to high output.

But although he has fat cattle, he hasn't a fat wallet - do you get me?

He is loosing some of sfp because he's 'farming.' If he kept for example 20 bullocks he'd probably be financial better off this year. As he'd get to keep his sfp.

It's a sad state of affairs.

I see where you are coming from alright, but what I was trying to say was that no matter what type of system you work, there is still no money in it. In our discussion group everyone's gross margin dropped in '13 compared to '12.

onyerbikepat

I remember looking at an article that teagasc did recently on the viability of milk production in ireland. It had a graph that showed how profit changed for different milk prices versus production costs. It included all costs, fixed, the whole lot. What it really hit home was, how important it was to produce at a low cost. Even if milk prices were to fall, you would still have a decent wage (margin, whatever you want to call it).
To me the same applies to beef. Because prices were high the last few years, people allowed their costs to creep up, as output was increased and so too profit. How that prices are way down, these high costs, high output systems, such as young bull beef etc, are all loosing seriously money.

I suppose the question is - do you stick to your guns and hope prices pick up again or do you reduce production costs, less fertiliser, lower stocking rate and work from a lower base, Hard to know really.

severeoversteer

visatorro wrote: »

Dairy farmer here, seem to find more lads with 30/40 acres have gone away from buying continental stock and buying cheaper weaned calves from a dairy herd, lightly stock the land, and hold what they have. If the stock leave a few euro well and good. These would mostly be parttime farmers

the neighbour bought a good few this year and he has f%ck all more weight on them after the full summer

and if beef animals aren't gaining weight with the summer we had they should be given the door

AntrimGlens

I was in a meeting today with a processor who operates in both parts of this country and they are wanting to start a trial where they source flying dairy herds and give them a selection of AA or He or BB bulls to choose from to inseminate 50% of the herd. The best cows and heifers either get sexed semen or the farmers choice of dairy bull for breeding replacements and the remainder get two or maybe three straws of the nominated beef sire. They will take the calves at either 6 or 10 weeks paying slight premium provided the farmer follows all protocol and calves receive required colostrum, vaccinations etc and these will be sent to their finishers for them to keep until ready for the factory. When i asked about trialing it on a beef herd, they looked at me as if i hadn't been following the beef market for the past 9 months and casually stated that in 10 years time the processors here won't be sourcing beef from continental or suckler herds, it will all come from dairy herds as its the only way they have of streamlining the process in the same way as poultry and pigs have done to date.
No disease risk, no poor thrive, standard carcase weight and the big one thats coming into play is the tenderness eating/meat quality gene.
Was also at a research day last week on comparisons between the limxfr and stabiliser cows where the dept had a stand on dairy bred beef, never seen the dept pushing this agenda before so as much as i hate to admit it as bob dylan says "the times they are a changing"...(not for the better)

AP2014

Miname wrote: »

he doesnt do any fencing, going by another thread.

No I do fencing if you remember from my other thread. I don't waste money on pointless 4 rows of wire between my own boundaries. I don't think some lads would be doing it either unless they are using sfp. I think any beef farmer would find it hard to justify that between their own boundaries.

Anyway to get back on the thread I fully believe in only investing farm profits excluding sfp and that doesn't leave much to invest.

caseman

Muckit wrote: »

Many of the top beef farmers are loosing money. Fact. Everything may look rosey from the road, but the enterprise isn't viable.

It's long been known that finishers are at a loosing game and the worst of the bunch. But now sucklers aren't far behind. Robin Talbot in the farming indo today is even eating into his sfp. Is the death kneal of intensive beef being sounded loud and clear?

Can this or will this continue?
We've been accused of being 'moaning Michaels' by others on here in alternative enterprises. But would they not feel the same if the milk rug was pulled from under their feet?

Should we batten down the hatches? Reduce numbers, Spend sweet fa and try hold on to what little we can? Half a loaf is better than no bread. Instead of killing ourselves for nothing.

Opinions please! :-)

I think reduced numbers and try and hold onto your payments is the only way for beef farming.
But i think those same payments are going to disappear alot quicker than people think.

_Brian

onyerbikepat wrote: »

I suppose the question is - do you stick to your guns and hope prices pick up again or do you reduce production costs, less fertiliser, lower stocking rate and work from a lower base, Hard to know really.

You're making it sound like once you lower stock rates then that's it forever ??

But surely there is the option to ease off for a few years and see how things pan out.. Keeping an eye on the situation and then gear back up in the future. Surely if a man is destocking by 20-30% then this hard cash can be put by to ramp back up in the future....

Sam Kade

AP2014 wrote: »

No I do fencing if you remember from my other thread. I don't waste money on pointless 4 rows of wire between my own boundaries. I don't think some lads would be doing it either unless they are using sfp. I think any beef farmer would find it hard to justify that between their own boundaries.

Anyway to get back on the thread I fully believe in only investing farm profits excluding sfp and that doesn't leave much to invest.

Any luck finding those dockets? :D:D

Miname

_Brian wrote: »

You're making it sound like once you lower stock rates then that's it forever ??

But surely there is the option to ease off for a few years and see how things pan out.. Keeping an eye on the situation and then gear back up in the future. Surely if a man is destocking by 20-30% then this hard cash can be put by to ramp back up in the future....

it takes fair discipline to hold hard cash. a couple of years ago lads were on about bulling anything without nuts now everyones getting out. stick with things steady and i think everything balances out.

Username John

Sam Kade wrote: »

Any luck finding those dockets? :D:D

Ah FFS Sam...

Is this it now? You're going to bring up those fcuking dockets, and derail every thread the two of ye happen to post in...

Sam Kade

Username John wrote: »

Ah FFS Sam...

Is this it now? You're going to bring up those fcuking dockets, and derail every thread the two of ye happen to post in...

only joking I gave up on him way back

AP2014

Sam Kade wrote: »

Any luck finding those dockets? :D:D

Ya there is and I will post tomorrow in the other thread. Have them since last week but enjoying the fine weather and boozing too much. Jesus though stop thralling through each thread waiting for me and derailing them.

This is an interesting thread be good to hear the plans of the big finishers on here.

TUBBY

What about tax implication though if destocking. Could only do it gradually to avoid a hefty bill.

AP2014

TUBBY wrote: »

What about tax implication though if destocking. Could only do it gradually to avoid a hefty bill.

Very interesting point. How many beef farmers are using their farm to invest and avoid paying tax? At this stage I think the majority of beef farmers are part time. Makes it hard on the full timers.

just do it

AntrimGlens wrote: »

I was in a meeting today with a processor who operates in both parts of this country and they are wanting to start a trial where they source flying dairy herds and give them a selection of AA or He or BB bulls to choose from to inseminate 50% of the herd. The best cows and heifers either get sexed semen or the farmers choice of dairy bull for breeding replacements and the remainder get two or maybe three straws of the nominated beef sire. They will take the calves at either 6 or 10 weeks paying slight premium provided the farmer follows all protocol and calves receive required colostrum, vaccinations etc and these will be sent to their finishers for them to keep until ready for the factory. When i asked about trialing it on a beef herd, they looked at me as if i hadn't been following the beef market for the past 9 months and casually stated that in 10 years time the processors here won't be sourcing beef from continental or suckler herds, it will all come from dairy herds as its the only way they have of streamlining the process in the same way as poultry and pigs have done to date.
No disease risk, no poor thrive, standard carcase weight and the big one thats coming into play is the tenderness eating/meat quality gene.
Was also at a research day last week on comparisons between the limxfr and stabiliser cows where the dept had a stand on dairy bred beef, never seen the dept pushing this agenda before so as much as i hate to admit it as bob dylan says "the times they are a changing"...(not for the better)

Someone stated on here lately that a JEx?? (AA or HE I think) won a best testing beef trial somewhere. Makes you think alright

blue5000

just do it wrote: »

Someone stated on here lately that a JEx?? (AA or HE I think) won a best testing beef trial somewhere. Makes you think alright

I think it was in NZ and it was an angus, must have been a bloody good angus bull.

Mad4simmental

just do it wrote: »

Someone stated on here lately that a JEx?? (AA or HE I think) won a best testing beef trial somewhere. Makes you think alright

I think it was a HE, against the famous now who is mad, get into wagyu I told you all the japs are going mad for it beef and we haven't annof to do one good year.

nungesser

Hi gang, Just a thought , I'm just a regular joe not a farmer and I'm a Yank. In England pubs/restaurants go out of their way to mention that they offer Irish Beef, It's featured as a premium product. In the states they pay over the top for grass fed beef. Why cant Irish Beef be sold as exactly that a premium product across the globe. When I lived in California lamb form New Zealand was marketed like that and the cost was astronomical in fact I found it cheaper to order lamb in a restaurant than to buy it and cook it myself. I believe Irish Beef can be seen as some of the best beef available especially for export. I understand that a lot of restrictions came about from the foot and mouth problems years ago but these are easing. I think Ireland is missing the boat by not exporting its beef as the best there is.
I'm sure there is a lot of factors I'm missing as far as the economic chain from farmer to market, but I would be interested in your comments

just do it

nungesser wrote: »

Hi gang, Just a thought , I'm just a regular joe not a farmer and I'm a Yank. In England pubs/restaurants go out of their way to mention that they offer Irish Beef, It's featured as a premium product. In the states they pay over the top for grass fed beef. Why cant Irish Beef be sold as exactly that a premium product across the globe. When I lived in California lamb form New Zealand was marketed like that and the cost was astronomical in fact I found it cheaper to order lamb in a restaurant than to buy it and cook it myself. I believe Irish Beef can be seen as some of the best beef available especially for export. I understand that a lot of restrictions came about from the foot and mouth problems years ago but these are easing. I think Ireland is missing the boat by not exporting its beef as the best there is.
I'm sure there is a lot of factors I'm missing as far as the economic chain from farmer to market, but I would be interested in your comments

90% of beef produced here is being exported and Bord Bia appear to do a good marketing job. The processors aren't wet behind the ears in that regard either. The main issue farmers have is they're price takers and the others at the table eating the pie are hungry and control the pie

Miname

Bird bia is doing a sh1te job. Prime beef being sold at whatever someone will give for it. Their add campaigns and new market openings are just lip service to keep us happy.

just do it

The best steaks I've ever had were in South America. Consistently good beef even in cheap as chips restaurants. I'm continually disappointed by steaks I get in restaurants here. What does that say?

manjou

just do it wrote: »

Someone stated on here lately that a JEx?? (AA or HE I think) won a best testing beef trial somewhere. Makes you think alright

The beef of jersey cattle tastes good and is tender. In the US and australia the carcases are graded on tenderness and marbling not on carcase shape.The amount of people who dont eat beef anymore because of the taste is alot..When people are looking to buy beef what the animal looks like dosent matter only what it tastes like.

Coonagh

Just going back on the point someone made about country crests new beef unit. They will always lose money on the cattle they finish through that unit but they will gain it back with the extra margin on their ready meals and they also have serious security of supply. Also it will be used to showcase his overall operation when touting for more business. It's not ever going to make money as as a stand alone but look at the control it gives him, he is supplying all the raw ingredients for his products now. Serious canny move

Muckit

just do it wrote: »

The best steaks I've ever had were in South America. Consistently good beef even in cheap as chips restaurants. I'm continually disappointed by steaks I get in restaurants here. What does that say?

There are so many factors that affect eating quality. The meat itself is Important, but the way it is treated after is equally important. Hanging times. Then in the kitchen you have cooking and resting time. Everything has to be right.

Maybe it's the banner restaurants?

blue5000

I think it's because butchers have switched away from trad breeds to continentals for meat yield. A lot of butchers no longer slaughter what they sell because of regulations and paperwork, bureaucracy etc.

_Brian

blue5000 wrote: »

I think it's because butchers have switched away from trad breeds to continentals for meat yield. A lot of butchers no longer slaughter what they sell because of regulations and paperwork, bureaucracy etc.

And the few that do kill near us all rear their own stock so no farmer is getting a turn either. They're getting a fair screw on them I rear and sell them across the counter.

coolshannagh28

blue5000 wrote: »

I think it's because butchers have switched away from trad breeds to continentals for meat yield. A lot of butchers no longer slaughter what they sell because of regulations and paperwork, bureaucracy etc.[/QUOTE

The quality of my local butchers meat took a nosedive about 2 years ago I casually asked him did he change his source , he had switched to continentals as he wasn't getting the yield off Angus and Hereford ,I see a lot of his customers buying meat in Lidl these days.
Continental beef doesn't suit the way we eat steaks in this country as we cut them too thick which leaves them too chewy and quite tasteless whereas on the continent they cut them thin and cook them fast and rare on a grill which gives much more flavour.

just do it

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

on the continent they cut them thin and cook them fast and rare on a grill which gives much more flavour.

...but still no where near as tasty as a steak with good marbling.

I'd Hereford roast beef in a pub in Dublin recently and it was good. I normally avoid roast beef in pubs but tried it because it specified it was Hereford.

Future Farmer

Is the main problem with Suckling not the fact the national herd average for beef is 12 cows!

Surely that means most suckler farmers are extensive?

onyerbikepat

Future Farmer wrote: »

Is the main problem with Suckling not the fact the national herd average for beef is 12 cows!

Surely that means most fsuckler farmers are extensive?

No, you can still be intensive with 12 cows. It really has to do with how hard you push what you have, fertiliser, reseeding, stocking rate etc.

Are Bord Bia doing a good job, or doing a good job convincing Irish Farmers that they are? It's not like they have any competition to keep them in line.

Future Farmer

onyerbikepat wrote: »

No, you can still be intensive with 12 cows. It really has to do with how hard you push what you have, fertiliser, reseeding, stocking rate etc.

Are Bord Bia doing a good job, or doing a good job convincing Irish Farmers that they are? It's not like they have any competition to keep them in line.

That's why I said surely that means most are extensive.

Anyone with 12 commercial cows really pushing a place intensively is surely mad. What a way to spend your SFP.

onyerbikepat

Future Farmer wrote: »

That's why I said surely that means most are extensive.

Anyone with 12 commercial cows really pushing a place intensively is surely mad. What a way to spend your SFP.

Is it not all relative, whether you have 12 or 120 cows?

just do it

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Is it not all relative, whether you have 12 or 120 cows?

There's economies of scale e.g. buying meal. However even the lads with 120 are finding it hard to hold onto their SFP never mind making a profit.

Panch18

The difference in profit between intensive and extensive in beef is negligible - and considering that you have more money tied up in stock, costs such as fertiliser, meal etc. - its completely not worth it

Been saying that for a while on hear but not many willing to listen

just do it

Panch18 wrote: »

The difference in profit between intensive and extensive in beef is negligible - and considering that you have more money tied up in stock, costs such as fertiliser, meal etc. - its completely not worth it

Been saying that for a while on hear but not many willing to listen

Have you operated both? How are you so sure? I did scenario analysis with my profit monitor and that showed extensive was more profitable