Wood Pellet Stove

Villain

I have searched here and found some older threads with mixed opinions.

I have been looking at installing a Multi Fuel stove but with no chimney present the cost is around 2k and you have the cons of having a stove which I encountered in the past. Mainly which are storage of wood and coal inside and out, arriving home from work on a cold evening to have to clean out stove source fuel and light and wait about 45 minutes for heat.

The wood pellet stoves I have been looking at have a few pros that counter those, mainly that you can store the pellets in 10kg bags, reduced cleaning and mainly you can use a timer to have the stove ignite at a set time.

Now obviously the main thing next is costs, so the stove will cost more but the install will be cheaper so the total cost will be less, the cost of pellets is the real big one, 10kg of pellets seem to sell at about 4.50 a bag but buying in bulk i.e. a pallet can reduce that.

Anyone know of a Supplier for bags of pellets in the Carlow area?

Anyone know how many nights you would get from a 10kg bag of pellets when say a 7KW stove burning for 4 hours a night?

Any other opinions?

The Guvnor

No first hand experience with wood pellet boilers or stoves.

However a friend and plumber who spent time installing wood pellet boilers and has one himself - has stopped using his.

He said he could not get consistent pellets for the boiler - this caused issues with the boiler getting clogged. I think for boilers you have a big hopper and auger effectively ensuring a constant supply but you need the space for the 1-2000kg of pellets.

It may not be such an issue for the stove not sure.

Can you get stoves that simmer so it could be on but at a low level thereby keeping hit in the house for when you get home etc!?

Villain

Yep anyone I have asked has listed all the issues with hoppers and boilers but very few seem to have experience with using the sealed 10kg bags and stoves.

The Guvnor

I suppose if the stoves were a viable alternative - you'd imagine they'd be a bit more popular though wouldn't we?

Maybe they are more popular in other countries?

Villain

Yep not sure why more people don't have them, hence my thread here

fearghalcotter

When the grant came out for the pellet boilers, there were a lot of cowboys jumping on the bandwagon and passing themselves off as installers. Overnight successes, however disappeared as soon as people had problems. It wasn't properly regulated and shoddy installations and an unsecure, unstable fuel supply let to nationwide skepticism.

Fast forward to today, in a market which is less than 9 years old, the wood pellet boiler/stoves reputation has still not recovered, although the market has stabilized. One of the key factors is that there are a couple of different companies providing wood pellets in typically the following three forms:

1. Bagged (typically 10-20 kg)
2. Bulk Bagged (1 tonne +)
3. Bulk Blown (Pellets directly blown into a dry storage area, minimum 3 tonnes)

From my recent research, in more recent times, some of the key issues which has tarnished the reputation of this sector has been addressed:

1. The quality of the pellets has substantially increased- there were a few teething problems in relation to the amount of fines, particularly in bulk blown (Solved by using reduced air pressure). This situation was not helped by the lack of suppliers at the time. Although bulk blown offers the best value, bagged seems to offer the less hassle with regards to fines and dust.

2. Many stove/boiler manufacturers require installers to attend training sessions, also in some cases the owners are given training themselves as it is equipment they are completely inexperienced with. Many people got boilers installed from people who could barely use them and in return, the client didn't have much of a clue either.

3. Mixed reviews- there are some excellent and some terrible reviews for the noble wood pellet, however it is important to extrapolate more information than what happy/unhappy people say. People who are happy choose the lifestyle, there are savings to be made but it is more work than any other heating appliance. if kept right its a worthy investment. People who are unhappy are those who were generally misguided, had dodgy or unreliable boilers installed or failed to maintain the cleaning or maintenance required.

Many of the people I have come into contact with named these reasons as the mainstay for not getting a wood pellet boiler. So here comes advice time :

1. Get installed by a reputable installer (i.e. not Joe down the road who seen it done before)

2. Price the pellets from different sources (many suppliers are acting as agents on behalf of larger manufacturers/distributors)

3. If you may be worried about the quality of pellet, only source ENplus A1 pellets, which can be traced back to country of origin and the customer can be provided with a cert of quality and burning specifications. Two main manufacturers of A1 grade pellets all Ireland, Laois Sawmills and Balcas. Both have suppliers throughout the country. There are also imports from various countries which are of the same grade.

4. Visually inspect the pellets yourself when they arrive or when your are collecting them. You will learn to see first hand if the quality is good or whether you should look for a different brand.

5. try a couple of bags of a few brands before committing solely to one. I have heard loads of people swearing by different brands and others slating them, so it really is trial and error.

When I build, I think ill go with a pellet boiler, but also have a backup just in case. Around the Carlow area the main supplier I can think of is Leinster pellets, however do check with manufacturers to see if they have a supplier near you. Latest prices I was quoted are around €285 per tonne (min of 3 tonne) for bulk blown and €325-370 for bagged (10-20Kg bags) per tonne.

zoom_cool

I have a wood pellet stove best thing I ever put in its a 10KW stove. I only use ENPlus A1 pellets from Balcas. I buy a pallet of 1000Kg at a time €315 so €3.15 a bag. A 10KG bag would last 8-10 hours depending on room set point I have mine set at 22. A 10 KG bag is 48KWH of energy so 7KW should last 6.8 hours. But you wont run at 7KW constant so it is as I said about 8-10hours burn per bag.

declan52

Hi zoom cool is your stove the kind where you lift the lid and pour the pellets in at the top, more suited to being installed in the inside of a house or the more industrial type usually found in a garage /outhouse. During the winter if you had it in how much pellets where you going through.

The Guvnor

Great info lads!

Is moisture an issue for the pellets? You need to store them so they stay the same as when they arrived.

Villain

The Guvnor wrote: »

Great info lads!

Is moisture an issue for the pellets? You need to store them so they stay the same as when they arrived.

I don't that is an issue with the bags i.e. the sealed bags don't allow moisture in

kennyb3

Hi Villain,

Not sure I can help you (know nothing in this area) but I can give you my brothers details. He spent 5 years in Austria working with KWB and then another couple of years in Scotland working for another company in this area.

Pm if you want his details (running his own company here)

zoom_cool

declan52 wrote: »

Hi zoom cool is your stove the kind where you lift the lid and pour the pellets in at the top, more suited to being installed in the inside of a house or the more industrial type usually found in a garage /outhouse. During the winter if you had it in how much pellets where you going through.

Yea you lift the lid and pour the pellets in at top its a inside stove heater not a boiler no issue with moisture as the pellets in sealed bags but I would not store them outside they would need to be keep in a garage. From Oct to March I would use about 40 bags approx maybe a bit less it all depends on what temp u set stove at.

Villain

Just to update this thread, I got a K Stove 7kw pellet stove and happy with it, the install was nice an simple and cheap!

Being able to just press a button and have it light is really nice, the only drawback is the fan noise which is a little loud and will take a while to get used to.

Villain

Just to update this, running the stove for an hour with the temp set to 23c and the air flow being set to P1 (max) it brought the temp from 18c to 19.9c in a very large kitchen/living room with a vaulted ceiling.
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tinofapples

Villian out of curiosity what stove did you buy and what were the installation costs ? I've had a wood pellet boiler in my garage since we built in 2007. I've had small issues with it over the years, elements/ photo sensors going.A motor went in the internal auger last year. Had we installed oil from day one I have no doubt we would have spent alot more heating the house. I'm contemplating putting a stove into a sunroom facing into an open plan kitchen/diner. We have ufh here but I feel heating this concrete slab would burn alot of pellets

I used to always buy bulk blown pellets but not in the last 12 months. The price of bagged pellets is too close to bulk to justify buying a minimum 3 tonnes. Any pictures of the stove setup ?

Villain

Its a Kstove 8006, my setup is below and the video from the maker showing install is below as well. I used a double wall flu but install was very simple. I had a mate drill the hole and did the install myself.

Of all the appliances I have this definitely the best purchase I have ever made, the only downside which I'm used to now is the fan noise, it noisy but we have got used to it.

Untitled

braddun

can you store a ton of wood pellets

chimminy will bring in cold air


not many places supply wood pellets in bulk


you need electricity to run stove,if there is a blackout,no heat



50 bags is about 1 ton


cost

how much is the install cost and use cost vs other heating

Villain

braddun wrote: »

can you store a ton of wood pellets

Yep, I had 98 x 10kg bags delivered stuck them in corner of garage.

braddun wrote: »

chimminy will bring in cold air

Nope sealed no entry point for cold air.

braddun wrote: »

not many places supply wood pellets in bulk

Plenty of choice in Leinster anyway and delivered to the door, only 13.5% VAT and no carbon tax

braddun wrote: »

you need electricity to run stove,if there is a blackout,no heat

Yep very same as my oil boiler, no power = no heat, well I have a generator as I live in a rural location but could be an issue for others.

braddun wrote: »

50 bags is about 1 ton

Nope 100 Bags is 1 tonne.

braddun wrote: »

cost

I got 98 bags or 980kg for €370 delivered to the door.

braddun wrote: »

how much is the install cost and use cost vs other heating

Versus a multi fuel stove I'd say about the same as buying Coal and sticks etc.

tinofapples

Thanks Villain, looks very good value. I see the 6kw is about €1300. The video makes the installation look like a piece of p1$$ 😄

tinofapples

By the way Villain, I don't know your location but I can buy 10kg bags for 2.95 each.

Villain

I'm in Carlow, that's a bloody good price!!

Farmer Pudsey

I am looking for a small woodpellet boiler stove about 15KW. Most seem to be about 11KW to water/central heating anf 4KW to room. I am only imterested in the ones that have there own internal hopper that takes 20ish KG's at a time.

Anyone any reccomendations. Was suprised at some of the prices quoted as this technology is around a long time. Would have expected this technology to be droping in price. Looking at it from a cost point oil heating would be a cheaper option even connsidering day to day costs. Over a 10 year period factoring in cost of boiler oil would be cheaper however I am interested in the wood pellet for flexibility.

Villain

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I am looking for a small woodpellet boiler stove about 15KW. Most seem to be about 11KW to water/central heating anf 4KW to room. I am only imterested in the ones that have there own internal hopper that takes 20ish KG's at a time.

Anyone any reccomendations. Was suprised at some of the prices quoted as this technology is around a long time. Would have expected this technology to be droping in price. Looking at it from a cost point oil heating would be a cheaper option even connsidering day to day costs. Over a 10 year period factoring in cost of boiler oil would be cheaper however I am interested in the wood pellet for flexibility.

Something like http://www.doyles.ie/index/products/product/K%20STOVE%208015%2015KW%20HYDRO%20PELLET%20STOVE%20NEW%20-%20SL8015/category/Wood+Pellet+Stoves/brand/K-Stove+wood+pellet+stoves/?productId=57527

15KW and 25kg hopper

Farmer Pudsey

Villain wrote: »

Something like http://www.doyles.ie/index/products/product/K%20STOVE%208015%2015KW%20HYDRO%20PELLET%20STOVE%20NEW%20-%20SL8015/category/Wood+Pellet+Stoves/brand/K-Stove+wood+pellet+stoves/?productId=57527

15KW and 25kg hopper

Yes somthing like that. there seems to be a lot around priced around that range. However I consider them expensive at that. Would have taught that a stove like that would be available in or around the 2K mark.

Just an observation. Think a lot of suppliers are making a killing off what are one off sales.

JonathonS

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yes somthing like that. there seems to be a lot around priced around that range. However I consider them expensive at that. Would have taught that a stove like that would be available in or around the 2K mark.

Just an observation. Think a lot of suppliers are making a killing off what are one off sales.

Post #6 above summarises the history, and this is still not a volume business. For every company offering pellet stoves there are 20 selling log burners. The installers are buying in small quantities, so prices are and will remain high until this changes. Low volumes also limit choice, there are a lot of European manufacturers whose products are not available here.

JonathonS

Villain wrote: »

I had a mate drill the hole and did the install myself.

There are building regs http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,37240,en.pdf that govern the installation of a chimney. I'm sure you did a good job, but I would strongly recommend a carbon monoxide alarm if you don't already have one. They are a bit bigger/more expensive than a smoke alarm.
It would be worth checking whether your chimney might be an issue when you come to sell the house.

Villain

JonathonS wrote: »

There are building regs http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,37240,en.pdf that govern the installation of a chimney. I'm sure you did a good job, but I would strongly recommend a carbon monoxide alarm if you don't already have one. They are a bit bigger/more expensive than a smoke alarm.
It would be worth checking whether your chimney might be an issue when you come to sell the house.

Yep well pointed out, I should have said my "mate" is a registered builder and the regs were followed but we also purchased a carbon monoxide alarm.

Farmer Pudsey

Have done a bit of reserch since. I am veering away from the pellet stove. Looking at an oil stove in the Kitchen and a logburning stove or casset in the sitting room.Yes I intend to put in a Carbon monoxide alarm and a fire alarm.

galwaytt

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Have done a bit of reserch since. I am veering away from the pellet stove. Looking at an oil stove in the Kitchen and a logburning stove or casset in the sitting room.Yes I intend to put in a Carbon monoxide alarm and a fire alarm.

..imho..the problem with oil stoves is, as they get older, they're inclined to get a bit smelly, and there's nothing worse than the smell of 'diesel' in your house. Look at the amount of people that have moved their boilers outdoors or to garages for that very reason.

Just my 0.02 as they say.

Man of Aran

galwaytt wrote: »

..imho..the problem with oil stoves is, as they get older, they're inclined to get a bit smelly, and there's nothing worse than the smell of 'diesel' in your house. Look at the amount of people that have moved their boilers outdoors or to garages for that very reason.

Just my 0.02 as they say.

In fairness, any such odours emitted into a room could only be from a ( leaky)rope door seals etc or poor up draught design and would be a similar risk/ problem on any (ageing) solid fuel stoves.
At least with kerosene, you would smell it promptly and take remedial action.

Recently relocated a 8 yr old Nestor Martin 10kw unit into current sitting room.
Superb, absolutely delighted.
At 1/2 setting room is toasty - burns <5 litres in 10 hours @ around 70 cents a litre, that's approx 3,50 euro per day.
Oil prices are heading 'further south' for near future but you know, even if it was 1 euro per litre, I still like it.
Instant heat, clean - no scuttles& implements around hearthstone. No dust in room or ash pans to clean out daily or constant stoking.

Do people really calculate the true cost of solid fuel daily with firelighters, fire logs, starters and then hauling wagon loads of turf or logs or coal in through your property seasonally plus the constant chores of cleaning and loading up.? Beats me.

Villain

Man of Aran wrote: »

Do people really calculate the true cost of solid fuel daily with firelighters, fire logs, starters and then hauling wagon loads of turf or logs or coal in through your property seasonally plus the constant chores of cleaning and loading up.? Beats me.

Yep that is the reason why I went with pellet stove but the advantages of that over oil are also strong, stable price no carbon taxes, tax is 13.5%.

JonathonS

Man of Aran wrote: »

Do people really calculate the true cost of solid fuel daily with firelighters, fire logs, starters and then hauling wagon loads of turf or logs or coal in through your property seasonally plus the constant chores of cleaning and loading up.? Beats me.

Whatever about smokeless coal, turf and non-kiln-dried logs are out. According to [URL="http://www.csai.ie/faq-1.html]these guys[/URL] the recommendation if you are regularly burning logs is that you should have your chimney cleaned 4 times a year.

They also say (quoting the DOE) that Ireland has the highest rate of chimney fires in the world.:(

Daithisp

Hay Villian hows that wood pellet stove going for you? Would u still recommended one?

Villain

Daithisp wrote: »

Hay Villian hows that wood pellet stove going for you? Would u still recommended one?

Haven't used it since March but yes definitely recommended one, great device. If you have any questions please let me know.

keano25

Still recommend one Villain?

Villain

keano25 wrote: »

Still recommend one Villan?

Yep for sure! I would say go with a good brand though with support, I haven't had any real issues just needed to change glow-plug and clean fans etc but some others I know had some minor issues. I'd imagine there are many more options now too.

The general easy to start and clean etc is great, the cost of pellets are pretty good value too.

keano25

What type of chimney is on yours? I've seen out through the wall and just above footpath..

Villain

Just 3 inch pipe out through the wall and 90 bend turned down outside, very small and neat

Sophir

Hi guys, got a quote for wood pellets boiler stove 15kw €4200 plus €1800 installation, nearly choked with installation cost. Have a solid fuel stove with back boiler at the moment, thinking to replace with wood pellet one. Was I fooled with the price? What is a good brand to go for? Could u recommend the place to buy? I'm in Midlands. Thanks a lot in advance!!!

eddhorse

Sophir wrote: »

Hi guys, got a quote for wood pellets boiler stove 15kw €4200 plus €1800 installation, nearly choked with installation cost. Have a solid fuel stove with back boiler at the moment, thinking to replace with wood pellet one. Was I fooled with the price? What is a good brand to go for? Could u recommend the place to buy? I'm in Midlands. Thanks a lot in advance!!!

I think you would want to be careful buying anything like this now as the govt are threatening to get rid of peat and coal burning (cant remember if wood was included)
I think I paid around 3.5k for my back boiler stove around 3 years ago. Not a wood pellet one.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ban-on-turf-and-other-smoky-fuels-considered-by-coalition-1.4108870

Gatoh

Govt want us to stop using fossil fuels ,stopping peat usage is something to do with preserving the nature, wood pellets or biomass pellets while not carbon neutral still are considered as renewable energy.
Replaced my outdoor oil boiler by outdoor pellet boiler about month ago, supplied and installed by Woodco ( e-complact slim 15kw) €4200 all inclusive and comes with 5 year warranty. Current cost to run semi townhouse is approx €5.65 per day based on 3.40 per 10kg wood pellet bag price. Trying to switch over to 1 tonne bulk bag ( approx €300 delivered) and will bag myself for storage should bring cost down to €5 per day (winter).

Sophir

Gatoh wrote: »

Govt want us to stop using fossil fuels ,stopping peat usage is something to do with preserving the nature, wood pellets or biomass pellets while not carbon neutral still are considered as renewable energy.
Replaced my outdoor oil boiler by outdoor pellet boiler about month ago, supplied and installed by Woodco ( e-complact slim 15kw) €4200 all inclusive and comes with 5 year warranty. Current cost to run semi townhouse is approx €5.65 per day based on 3.40 per 10kg wood pellet bag price. Trying to switch over to 1 tonne bulk bag ( approx €300 delivered) and will bag myself for storage should bring cost down to €5 per day (winter).

How many hours for day the heat is on please? 5.65 euro a day is a bit expensive I think.

Gatoh

IDK, it's temperature controlled system, when it requires heat then heater will kick in. Six night hours from 00:00 till 6am are completely switched off.
Currently about 2 euro a day.. Then again summer is almost here
Hot water and house 23 degrees C
House insulation is rubbish, bit earthwool in the attic that's all , walls are "stuffed with something" as they were made by 1998

I consider it is cheap vs. spending a lot of money for insulating the townhouse ( probably closer to 9K ) to be able to install Air-to-Water heating system ( another 6K)

so far happy enough with the running cost

worlds goodest teecher

Just had Kalor Quarda 8 installed. Where do I get decent wood pellets at good price? I have seen prices range from 3.15-9.00 for 15kg bag.

Gatoh

https://balcasenergy.com/online-shop/bagged-wood-pellets

x96 10kg bags ( full pallet) €270 incl VAT & Delivery

I got dem from there, fast delivery and good quality pellets.

worlds goodest teecher

Gatoh wrote: »

https://balcasenergy.com/online-shop/bagged-wood-pellets

x96 10kg bags ( full pallet) €270 incl VAT & Delivery

I got dem from there, fast delivery and good quality pellets.

Are they dusty? Laois Timber Products and Hayes Wood Jems were recommended to me.

Gatoh

I found Hayes Wood pellets little "dusty" and stop using them.
Balcas pellets are good quality and very reasonable priced if you buy the whole 96 bags on the pallet.

Again, it depends how the bags has been handled and stored coming from manufacturer to resale agent and then your home.
Less handling the better, that's why I prefer directly from source and pallet-load

Edit:
Laois Timber Products pellets looks little pricey to me..

worlds goodest teecher

Gatoh wrote: »

I found Hayes Wood pellets little "dusty" and stop using them.
Balcas pellets are good quality and very reasonable priced if you buy the whole 96 bags on the pallet.

Again, it depends how the bags has been handled and stored coming from manufacturer to resale agent and then your home.
Less handling the better, that's why I prefer directly from source and pallet-load

Edit:
Laois Timber Products pellets looks little pricey to me..

Balcas Brites the same quality as Balcas Energy?

Yes Laois Timber pellets are pricey but they are a bigger bag I think. I’ll leave the working out of the price per kilo until tomorrow, don’t want over excit myself this late in the evening.

StonedRaider

Gatoh wrote: »

https://balcasenergy.com/online-shop/bagged-wood-pellets

x96 10kg bags ( full pallet) €270 incl VAT & Delivery

I got dem from there, fast delivery and good quality pellets.

From their website, they state all quotes include delivery and vat. Yet when I try to purchase a pallet of 96x 10kg bags they charge €36.45 vat on top of the €270. Each bag then works out@ €3.19 compared to my local supplier 5mins away @€;3 per ENplus A1

Gatoh

Update: so after fiddling with the on'off timer I'm getting now (mid-summer with very little sun and lot of scattered showers 16 day's out of x6 10kg bags. Room temp average 22.8C and constant hot water for taps/shower ( 4 people) - so calculating by €3:20 per bag it works out just €1.20 a day + electricity to run the boiler.

Not bad at all

Gatoh

Gatoh wrote: »

Update: so after fiddling with the on'off timer I'm getting now (mid-summer with very little sun and lot of scattered showers 16 day's out of x6 10kg bags. Room temp average 22.8C and constant hot water for taps/shower ( 4 people) - so calculating by €3:20 per bag it works out just €1.20 a day + electricity to run the boiler.

Not bad at all

I may have missed this and forgive me for not reading back in the thread but is this an external boiler or stove with back boiler ?

Wonder how that would work out in cold weather ?

Currently the price of oil is reasonable and I'm not sure I would change from the sheer convenience of oil and next to 0 maintenance and incredible reliability in a hurry but I am interested in pellets but not sure storing them in the shed in Winter is a good idea.

I've been interested in a water 2 water heat pump for some time, being on a well it would work out much more efficient than any air or ground sourced setup but retrofitting might not be an option but modern HM can run at up to 60 Deg or more these days making a direct Oil boiler swap very attractive except for the price which would take a good few years to pay back.