18 and popped for EPO

Junior

It looks like Eddie Dunbar is the winner of Trofeo Karlsberg as the guy who was first has tested positive for EPO.

I'm delighted for Eddie, but what this says about a sport where coaches and or parents enable an 18 year old to dope I don't really know.

http://lagazettedessports.wordpress.com/archives/a-18-ans-kristjan-kumar-positif-a-lepo/

XtotheZ

really shows the state of the sport when even juniors dont believe its possible to compete without drugs

Doc07

XtotheZ wrote: »

really shows the state of the sport when even juniors dont believe its possible to compete without drugs

He may well have believed he could compete but fancied his chances of winning would be made easier with some 'help'

Iranoutofideas

FFS this is ridiculous

XtotheZ

Doc07 wrote: »

He may well have believed he could compete but fancied his chances of winning would be made easier with some 'help'

not really my point but i agree. I think in another light this shows the pressure put on these guys.

stecleary

So much for the clean generation

Beasty

People will cheat at all levels. The good news is the cheat was caught in this case and hopefully the message is starting to get through (even if it may appear slow in doing so)

Kaisr Sose

It takes a long time to change peoples behaviour. Doping in sport has been around for a long time and it will take a long time to eradicate across all sports, not just cycling. Anybody who has ever read 'Death in the Locker Room' will recall that for some, winning at any price is worth it.

Human nature tells us that people will always seek to gain an advantage by cheating. Whether in sport , academia etc. That people know they may get caught does not seem to be a sufficient detterent.

Hopefully the science of testing can make the quantam leap that puts it ahead of the chemists that will always try to formulate the undetectable performance enhancing drugs.

killalanerr

With the Russian skiers coming clean about using methods that can't even be tested for it just proves that very little seems to be changing,but i still believe that the the passport system has made it harder

dragratchet

killalanerr wrote: »

With the Russian skiers coming clean about using methods that can't even be tested for it just proves that very little seems to be changing,but i still believe that the the passport system has made it harder

got any links to that story on Russian skiers?

killalanerr

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/russian-athletes-admit-xenon-doping-at-winter-olympics-1.1923195
Intresting read

JohnBee

killalanerr wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/russian-athletes-admit-xenon-doping-at-winter-olympics-1.1923195
Intresting read

I see krypton is going to be also banned along with argon and xenon. I guess that's Superman out of the race then.

Zyzz

I see another Paul Kimmage book in the very near future..


Still, delighted for Eddie, the doper should be banned for life.

Kaisr Sose

While it has not been said doping occured, I think it should be stated that the Russians did not take banned substances for which there was no test. Therefore no doping took place and the medals won will stand (unless positives are recorded for banned substance following the inevitable retrospective testing of their samples).

diomed

pac_man wrote: »

Roughly,how long would this lad get banned for?

It should be 100 years.

fixie fox

Zyzz wrote: »

...the doper should be banned for life.

I don't think so if he's a junior. The big story here is the supply system. It should be a case of a criminal investigation into the supply and someone jailed. How does a junior go about sourcing EPO, and learning how to use it, without a mentor of some kind.

ZiabR

fixie fox wrote: »

I don't think so if he's a junior. The big story here is the supply system. It should be a case of a criminal investigation into the supply and someone jailed. How does a junior go about sourcing EPO, and learning how to use it, without a mentor of some kind.

Thats a good point actually. His coach's and team he races for have some questions to answer.

Cape Clear

logik wrote: »

Thats a good point actually. His coach's and team he races for have some questions to answer.

Coaches and team managers also need to be banned IMHO

wav1

I wonder would we have qualified another place in junior worlds if eddie had to receive the winners allocation of uci points?The mind boggles with this one.
Mentors need to be hit big time.

Slo_Rida

wav1 wrote: »

I wonder would we have qualified another place in junior worlds if eddie had to receive the winners allocation of uci points?The mind boggles with this one.
Mentors need to be hit big time.

Mentors/managers/coaches need to be banned for life without hesitation. They boy needs to be schooled and helped back into the sport with the right mindset. Give him a 'slap-on-the-wrist ban' because he was possibly by law a child when this occurred.
IMO he didn't dope, he was doped.

Chips Lovell

I wouldn't automatically be pointing the finger at parents and coaches. Teenagers have been buying and taking drugs and hiding it from their parents and mentors for decades.

Beasty

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I wouldn't automatically be pointing the finger at parents and coaches. Teenagers have been buying and taking drugs and hiding it from their parents and mentors for decades.

Is that personal experience talking there Oscar....:pac:

magicbastarder

killalanerr wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/russian-athletes-admit-xenon-doping-at-winter-olympics-1.1923195
Intresting read

it keeps referring to xenon as a 'drug'; it's not. it simply inhibits uptake of oxygen, as is referred to later in the article.

GreeBo

Lifetime, retrospective ban if caught at any time = no problem.

This 2 year ban lark is baloney.

GreeBo

magicbastarder wrote: »

it keeps referring to xenon as a 'drug'; it's not. it simply inhibits uptake of oxygen, as is referred to later in the article.

Just what do you think a drug is?

"a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body."

Inhibition of oxygen would see like a physiological effect to me?

Chips Lovell

Hi all,
I've had to delete one post. Can we please keep the forum charter in mind and not use this thread to allege or allude that any other rider is doping.

Thank you

magicbastarder

i'm not trying to suggest it's what happened here, but has there ever been a case where an athlete was being given such 'enhancements' without their knowledge, by a team doctor?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

EC1000

magicbastarder wrote: »

it keeps referring to xenon as a 'drug'; it's not. it simply inhibits uptake of oxygen, as is referred to later in the article.

Of course it's a drug! It doesn't have to be in a white vial with a warning label to be a drug.

magicbastarder

GreeBo wrote: »

Just what do you think a drug is?

"a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body."

Inhibition of oxygen would see like a physiological effect to me?

we can agree that oxygen is a drug too, so. as is water.

Darkglasses

daveirl wrote: »

I'm the one who had the post deleted. Let me rephrase then. I wasn't alleging anyone was currently doping. I was pointing out that people who are known to have doped in the past are regularly praised on this forum. In particular in the Vuetla thread the exciting racing provided to us by known dopers has been praised. I was asking how people can support a team run by Riis for example and then complain in this thread about young people doping to win/make money. That's the issue in the sport. You don't get punished. Lance is still a millionaire, Riis still runs a team etc., etc..

Not everybody on the forum here has the same opinion though. People who would have dopers automatically banned for life probably don't post in stage threads much.

Lumen

EC1000 wrote: »

Of course it's a drug! It doesn't have to be in a white vial with a warning label to be a drug.

I don't think Xenon is a drug since it's chemically inert. What definition of drug are you using?

Something doesn't have to be a drug to be banned as a performance enhancer. Hyperbaric chambers are not drugs but they're banned in Italy.

EC1000

magicbastarder wrote: »

we can agree that oxygen is a drug too, so. as is water.

Yes, either in excessive quantities will kill you. Hyponatremia? Hyperoxia?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Junior

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I wouldn't automatically be pointing the finger at parents and coaches. Teenagers have been buying and taking drugs and hiding it from their parents and mentors for decades.

Sure they have, but it's not like you can your mate in 6th year's older brother who's in College to nip to the Off License get you a bottle of buckfast, some hash and oh yeah any chance you could pick up some EPO - I'm skipping the night club this weekend I'm going racing.

A course of EPO is a substantial amount of money from what I remember reading from that guy in the states who was doping as an amateur. It's not like lifting 50 quid out of the mothers purse to go have a night out.

And if there is a different scenario, that a kid that young is around such a scene that he's influenced by what he see's and has easy access to a potent drug of this nature that he decided, f*ck it - I'll just nick some of this and give it a go, well then there's serious questions to be asked.

EC1000

Lumen wrote: »

I don't think Xenon is a drug since it's chemically inert. What definition of drug are you using?

Something doesn't have to be a drug to be banned as a performance enhancer. Hyperbaric chambers are not drugs but they're banned in Italy.

It's inert, but can inhibit the uptake of other drugs by the body. You could say the same about numerous treatments that the body undergoes. The indirect effect of a substance can be a severe physiological effect. It doesn't have to cause the effect directly itself.

NeedMoreGears

On balance , I think the young lad should be put out of the sport. A "no-excuses accepted" ban may help other younger talents resist pressure to dope, wherever it may come from. At the end of the day someone thought it was acceptable to put some fairly serious drugs (probably of dodgy provenance) inside a kid's body. We can't have that.

The people around him have some serious questions to answer.

blobbie

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Not to mention Vino and his crew http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/valentin-iglinskiy-sacked-by-astana-after-positive-test

Chips Lovell

I think we all know you can't buy EPO in an off licence.

magicbastarder

EC1000 wrote: »

Yes, either in excessive quantities will kill you. Hyponatremia? Hyperoxia?

by that definition, every single substance in the world is a drug. which makes the word 'drug' meaningless.

EC1000

magicbastarder wrote: »

by that definition, every single substance in the world is a drug. which makes the word 'drug' meaningless.

This is getting so far off topic it's ridiculous. There is no physiological effect in most substances at normal levels. With most substances, it's only severely elevated levels that cause an effect. If I killed someone by forcefully administering pure O2 over a period of time, would you classify then as having been "drugged"? I am sure you would. Anyway, this is meaningless to this thread so back on topic!

MayoSalmon

Do people still take competitive cycling serious?

Chips Lovell

Yes

MayoSalmon

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

Yes

Crazy

petethedrummer

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I think we all know you can't buy EPO in an off licence.

Well you probably only need the Tor web browser and some bitcoins. Have it delivered to your house or a post box.

Darkglasses

Is EPO really that hard to get? What's the story with the stuff you can buy on Amazon?

petethedrummer

Evening Primrose Oil?

Darkglasses

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004U2JR8K?pc_redir=1410349445&robot_redir=1

That stuff?

PeadarCo

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Crazy

To be honest its not much different than a lot of sports. Look at the recent World Cup, Premership, athlectics etc. In the World Cup there was plenty of blatant cheating that went unpunished, didn't hamper peoples enjoyment. There's cheating in all sports and with regard to doping cycling is actually one of those that takes it seriously and tries to do proper testing instead of the bare minimum.

Cycling has changed. Look at the Chris Horner situation. Wins the Vuelta but still has big issues finding a team. On Cycling Tips the Secret Pro column the point was made that Horner received more attention with regard potential doping than the Jamaican sprinters. In Horner's situation there's no proof while Jamaica had a spate of doping offences turing up and having issues with the actual testing regime in the country itself.

Still it is shocking that someone at 18 would take EPO. Given the improvements gained from the Bio passport, would this be a way to get around it? As in use EPO to boost a persons blood at an early age and just keep the blood count high so it can be passed off as natural. I'd imagine if a person starting taking something like EPO/similar once they were already on the bio passport it would be picked up.

dave_o_brien

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm not trying to suggest it's what happened here, but has there ever been a case where an athlete was being given such 'enhancements' without their knowledge, by a team doctor?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/the-drugs-do-work-and-thats-why-players-cant-say-no-26712944.html

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Crazy

Great contribution. People also take athletics seriously, and swimming, horse racing, etc, etc, despite the prevalence of drugs. Most reasonable people will accept after consideration that there is unlikely to be any professional sports where use of banned substances to gain an advantage is not a serious, widespread practice.

Lusk_Doyle

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Do people still take competitive cycling serious?

Of course they do. It's a huge industry that employs many people.