Primary School and Religious Education

Gerry T

The idea for this thread is coming from another I have been following. In simple terms the debate had an underlying theme with the participants split over this item.
If you could decide in the morning would you have religious education as part of the primary school curriculum in state funded schools. Not that religious eduction should disappear but if parents wanted their child to have a specific faith taught to them, like Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish... then parents would send their kids to after school classes for this.
My own position for what its worth is RE should be taken out of state funded schools, I would be accepting of a general RE class, which didn't favour one religion over another, and even belief's such as Atheism should be explained.

Turtwig

Religious education is absolutely welcome; religious indoctrination isn't. Teach kids what religions believe, not preach a particular religion as fact. If you wish to indoctrinate them do it privately outside of state schools.

Gerry T

Turtwig wrote: »

Religious education is absolutely welcome; religious indoctrination isn't. Teach kids what religions believe, not preach a particular religion as fact. If you wish to indoctrinate them do it privately outside of state schools.

I'm in agreement with you. But I'm hoping we get a good number of people to respond. It will be interesting to see how many like the status quo. One side argues that we are over 80% catholic so if you don't like it find another school. The other suggests that people would prefer to have no RE or a general RE class but they are not motivated enough to go start a riot on dame street. Maybe the poll will give an insight from the boards members

Gerry T

Well there you have it, it's conclusive. 100% in favour of option 3, I wouldn't have believed it myself

smacl

I think religious instruction should be removed from the core curriculum of all state funded schools, though I personally have no issue with it taking place as an unfunded extra curricular activity where the demand is there.

I don't think religious education, e.g. a study of the worlds religious traditions, provides enough value to the student to be part of the core curriculum either, and would think that it would be better to study world traditions and culture which would include religious tradition. Not all major world cultures are predominantly described by their religion, e.g. China and Russia, but if the goal is to prepare children to be part of an international multi-cultural society, they deserve as much attention as more religious societies.

Gerry T

smacl wrote: »

I think religious instruction should be removed from the core curriculum of all state funded schools, though I personally have no issue with it taking place as an unfunded extra curricular activity where the demand is there.

I don't think religious education, e.g. a study of the worlds religious traditions, provides enough value to the student to be part of the core curriculum either, and would think that it would be better to study world traditions and culture which would include religious tradition. Not all major world cultures are predominantly described by their religion, e.g. China and Russia, but if the goal is to prepare children to be part of an international multi-cultural society, they deserve as much attention as more religious societies.

You have articulated a point I have been trying to put together, I think people are very connected to the traditions in religion. These have been with us Irish for hundreds of years and even if the catholic church were to crumble I believe those traditions would continue long into the future. such as weddings, funerals, christenings, Easter, Christmas day. For many the ceremony and tradition is more important than the religious aspect of the event

Understand a religion is an insight into how a society thinks and functions. This along with the study of history, geography, maths, irish...... makes for a more rounded education

Cabaal

Personally I'd prefer numerous religions and non belief is covered,

why...because you don't want a child to go into a world naive, this could be dangerous when it comes to the catholic church, Scientology etc cults and the like.

while this may not be a problem for some people here as they will take an active part in educating their child when it comes to faith/non-faith.

As we've seen with the vast majority of parents they take a back seat when it comes to such stuff and just assume somebody else will do it all.

Gerry T

Cabaal wrote: »

Personally I'd prefer numerous religions and non belief is covered,

why...because you don't want a child to go into a world naive, this could be dangerous when it comes to the catholic church, Scientology etc cults and the like.

while this may not be a problem for some people here as they will take an active part in educating their child when it comes to faith/non-faith.

As we've seen with the vast majority of parents they take a back seat when it comes to such stuff and just assume somebody else will do it all.

Is it that some parents are happy to tick the catholic box, hit mass once a month then park the religion stuff, and let the kids go to the local catholic school, they don't really care one way or the other. The focus is points in the leaving and how they get on at sports.
I do know some committed catholic's, but its only a couple. For me the people's opinion has shifted so much in the last 30 years, the Govt systems haven't moved at the same pace. But I'm open for debate with someone

Pherekydes

Gerry T wrote: »

Well there you have it, it's conclusive. 100% in favour of option 3, I wouldn't have believed it myself

A bit premature?

Also, atheism isn't a belief system, which is why I didn't vote for #3.

PopePalpatine

I've seen it mentioned time and again on this forum that the Department of Education's administration (i.e. the civil servants) is the most conservative in Ireland. I don't think we'll see much progress for another decade, considering the hammering Labour will get in the next GE and that we'd probably get a FF/FG coalition.

Gerry T

Pherekydes wrote: »

A bit premature?

Also, atheism isn't a belief system, which is why I didn't vote for #3.

I was joking, only 1 vote in when I posted that, hence 100% for option 3.

Agreed Atheism is not a religion or belief, but it is a "belief" that there is no god. Atheists don't have a set of rules, hence its not a "belief" in the true sense. The reason I mentioned it is I feel kids should be taught that there is an option to believe there is no God and not feel that's wrong

Gerry T

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I've seen it mentioned time and again on this forum that the Department of Education's administration (i.e. the civil servants) is the most conservative in Ireland. I don't think we'll see much progress for another decade, considering the hammering Labour will get in the next GE and that we'd probably get a FF/FG coalition.

Hence the poll, I'm curious what boards people think on the subject. I'm new to this area of boards but can see there are plenty of hot debates. Those on the religious side defending their corner and those with polar views. But when it boils down to RE education I'm not sure that we will get the results we expect

shruikan2553

I mentioned something like this in the other thread. The idea of having a different school because of 1 subject is an absurd idea. I would rather more SNAs and smaller class sizes instead of splitting everyone up because one person thinks their religion is the right one when that view is based on nothing more than the opinions of the parents and location they live in.

Might as well have liberal and conservative schools or connected to a political party. Although there are people who think the colleges are some sort of liberal brainwashing place as if I have a lecture of "How to get Gay Married" between statistics and thermodynamics.

PopePalpatine

Gerry T wrote: »

Hence the poll, I'm curious what boards people think on the subject. I'm new to this area of boards but can see there are plenty of hot debates. Those on the religious side defending their corner and those with polar views. But when it boils down to RE education I'm not sure that we will get the results we expect

TBH, you're not really going to get a really representative sample of Ireland with this poll in this forum. It's pretty much a given that the poll will be a contest between options 2 & 3, rather than option 1 vs options 2 & 3.

You might get a more representative sample if you posted this thread in After Hours, but I think it would descend into a shitstorm as the "anti-PC" brigade give up bashing refugees and immigrants and just say "DURRR, IF U DONT LIKE IT FUCK OFF THIS IS CATHOLIC IRELAND".

Pherekydes

Gerry T wrote: »

Agreed Atheism is not a religion or belief, but it is a "belief" that there is no god.

No!

"I believe that that there is no god"

is not the same as

"I do not believe that there is a god"

Atheism is not a belief.

Gerry T

Pherekydes wrote: »

No!

"I believe that that there is no god"

is not the same as

"I do not believe that there is a god"

Atheism is not a belief.

???? is it just me but both those statements say the same thing. there is no god. what am I missing ?

Gerry T

PopePalpatine wrote: »

TBH, you're not really going to get a really representative sample of Ireland with this poll in this forum. It's pretty much a given that the poll will be a contest between options 2 & 3, rather than option 1 vs options 2 & 3.

You might get a more representative sample if you posted this thread in After Hours, but I think it would descend into a shitstorm as the "anti-PC" brigade give up bashing refugees and immigrants and just say "DURRR, IF U DONT LIKE IT FUCK OFF THIS IS CATHOLIC IRELAND".

from what I see, there are a lot of people on both sides in this forum.

MODS can a thread like this exist in both A&A and Christianity forums...just to see if the responses shift the other way ?

nagirrac

Gerry T wrote: »

???? is it just me but both those statements say the same thing. there is no god. what am I missing ?

Both of you are incorrect.

"There is no God" is a knowledge statement, commonly called gnostic or strong atheism i.e. a positive assertion of belief. To claim there is no God is a truth claim, and is a positive belief as opposed to weak atheism or agnostic atheism which is merely lack of belief. All atheists are by definition weak atheists, in that they lack belief in God, a subset of atheists are strong atheists in that they claim God does not exist, and usually but not always, back up this claim with arguments, like the problem of evil, etc.

It's all explained quite well in the attached article.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm

Hotblack Desiato

I agree with 2, but also 3 (ignoring the nitpick that atheism isn't a belief system) with the caveat that the time given over to religious education be drastically reduced from what it is now. It's really not all that important, certainly not 2.5 hours a week important.

So, what option do I pick?

rainbow kirby

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

caveat that the time given over to religious education be drastically reduced from what it is now. It's really not all that important, certainly not 2.5 hours a week important

I'd agree with this. Teach a class where pupils learn about various belief systems, and also reduce the time taken for it to around 45 minutes-1 hour a week. That extra hour and a half could easily be used for extra maths, for a foreign language, for extra PE... all of which would be more useful than the system that is currently in place.

Gerry T

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I agree with 2, but also 3 (ignoring the nitpick that atheism isn't a belief system) with the caveat that the time given over to religious education be drastically reduced from what it is now. It's really not all that important, certainly not 2.5 hours a week important.

So, what option do I pick?

you can pick both but you sound like a 2 to me.

Gerry T

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I'd agree with this. Teach a class where pupils learn about various belief systems, and also reduce the time taken for it to around 45 minutes-1 hour a week. That extra hour and a half could easily be used for extra maths, for a foreign language, for extra PE... all of which would be more useful than the system that is currently in place.

Hadn't though about the time, I would be in favour of kids learning about something new, some foreign language, classical studies, foreign cultures.... good idea

Cabaal

Atheism is as much a belief as not following football is a sport,

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Cabaal

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If a religion class existed, I'd say maybe an hour a week tops, I suppose it could be lumped into some sort of ethics/society class.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

smacl

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Question of what's going on locally, local tradition and parental demand. I don't see why Irish is as important as German, Chinese or Arabic, but it gets a lot of school hours.

Czarcasm

There's no option in the poll for the complete removal to any references of religion from the curriculum?

I mean a completely secular education, where children are not taught in school about religions at all, and personal beliefs are kept outside the school grounds and are the responsibility of the children's parents.

You won't teach a class much about one religion in 45 mins per week, let alone teach them about even a multitude of the major religions. Atheism itself would take two seconds to explain though - a lack of belief in a deity or deities.

Following on from that other thread, never mind about teaching children foreign languages or other useful and practical concepts either until they have learned the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic. The amount of posters who couldn't differentiate between principle and principal was truly shocking, let alone the number of posters who were incapable of reading what had already been posted in the thread, and arithmetic?

Some posters lack the ability to do simple percentages as part of mental arithmetic. I know we don't really delve into statistics until secondary school, but that thread was a poor show of even the most basic concepts of arithmetic.

lynski

While a secular education is an ideal, ignoring the societal effects of religion on a huge proportion of the population is not. Religion as a subject is fascinating, and it is possible to understand the basic tenets and history of faiths in 13/14 yrs of state education.

Esel

Pherekydes wrote: »

No!

"I believe that that there is no god"

is not the same as

"I do not believe that there is a god"

Atheism is not a belief.

Atheist v agnostic, no?

Love some of those a-words - like anathema, anabaptist, Angelus, abjure, abdication, adumbrated, affianced, agnate, agoraphobia, adjacent, alum , alliteration, ambiguous, anaphylactic, anguish , apotheosis, aphorism, aquifer, absent, astigmatism, anabatic, anabolic, aurum , avuncular, atavar, atavistic , auriculum, apiarist, aphid, adoration , awful , ax(e) , axion, axiomatic, anode; aye, words like that.

The a-, ab-, ad-, ana-, apo-, etc. prefixes can turn meaning right around!

Edit: agnostic v atheist posted already. Anyways, adjective, adverb...

Esel

I agree with the poster who said that this forum will not produce anything like a representative result.

Preaching to the deacon-verted and all that... Sorry; couldn't resist that pathetic attempt at hyphenated neologism.

Also: apostate, apostle, assumption, annunciation, anguish , appellation, attribute, ascribe, ablation, anterior, aspirant, admission, abject, apology, acquit, affluent, agitation, agriculture, angnail, alumin(i)um, altar , alter ego ?..., afterword, afterthought, absolute, absolution, absolve, aggression, absence, angle, atrophy, asphyxiation, anaesthesia, analgesic, aspiration, average, aver, also, affidavit, action, actual, actuarial, advice/advise, advantageous, alteration, animal, animalistic, alb, albion, affix, application, assertion, abnegation, attachment, atherosclerosis, antediluvianism, aspersion, accusation, aftermath, atomic, argument, acclimatise, adjust, accept, affect, abjure, adjust, additive, actual, actuate, actuation, accusative, ask, answer, all-knowing, all-seeing, aberration, astringent, ample, amplitude, amplification, accident, abstraction, abyss, artistic, anther, androsterone, androgeny, aspect, aspersion, abrogation, abscond, absent, abnormal, after, and, attorney, attack, advance, adversary, actionable, acquisitive, asinine, aquiline, aspersion, asparagus, axiomatic, also, and, another, aftermath.

Pherekydes

Esel wrote: »

Atheist v agnostic, no?

Why do people persist in posting this? The terms are not mutually exclusive, to wit, agnostic atheist.

Cabaal

smacl wrote: »

Question of what's going on locally, local tradition and parental demand. I don't see why Irish is as important as German, Chinese or Arabic, but it gets a lot of school hours.

Irish isn't, well culturally it is important I suppose,

But when it comes to use Irish is pretty useless when compared to French or German.

Irish would be best as a extra subject that people can get extra points at, if it must stay then it needs to be completely overhauled as there are serious issues with how schools dish it out to students.

Brian Shanahan

I picked 2 as to be honest religion isn't important enough on its own to merit a subject in the national curriculum at any level. It should really be replaced by a "civics & ethics" class, where young people learn about society, how morality has evolved (of which religions have tended to play a small part, e.g. most of christian morality is a cobbling together of various Middle Eastern and Greek secular systems of societal behaviour with almost nothing original incorporated) and the current best practise for being a moral person. Included in that the children can learn religion and philosophy as it has an influence on moral and civic systems in order to show how these ideas come about and their influences.

bajer101

I went with option 2, no Religion at all. While there is some benefit to teaching young children about belief systems, if I am perfectly honest, I think that it is just lending credence to something that I think is complete bunkum. Maybe replace it all with some sort of Philosophy lessons where kids are taught to think for themselves? But I'm not sure that that would be the best use of educational time for kids of that age.

Gerry T

Czarcasm wrote: »

There's no option in the poll for the complete removal to any references of religion from the curriculum?

I mean a completely secular education, where children are not taught in school about religions at all, and personal beliefs are kept outside the school grounds and are the responsibility of the children's parents.

You won't teach a class much about one religion in 45 mins per week, let alone teach them about even a multitude of the major religions. Atheism itself would take two seconds to explain though - a lack of belief in a deity or deities.

Following on from that other thread, never mind about teaching children foreign languages or other useful and practical concepts either until they have learned the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic. The amount of posters who couldn't differentiate between principle and principal was truly shocking, let alone the number of posters who were incapable of reading what had already been posted in the thread, and arithmetic?

Some posters lack the ability to do simple percentages as part of mental arithmetic. I know we don't really delve into statistics until secondary school, but that thread was a poor show of even the most basic concepts of arithmetic.

Option 2 was men't as no religion, I know it didn't say that -- copy paste !! option 3 was for a general religion class.

brianon

General religion and less then the current 2.5 hours per week.

Gerry T

Esel wrote: »

I agree with the poster who said that this forum will not produce anything like a representative result.

I know, but what forum would give a best result ? I was thinking of putting the same poll into Christianity after this closes today. Give that till the end of the week and come back to both posts with the results.

Cabaal

Gerry T wrote: »

I know, but what forum would give a best result ? I was thinking of putting the same poll into Christianity after this closes today. Give that till the end of the week and come back to both posts with the results.

Be worth doing, I think I know what the results will be though

Gerry T

Cabaal wrote: »

Be worth doing, I think I know what the results will be though

I will do it. But a lot of my friends would tick the RCC box, but when it came to their children's education religion didn't come into the decision process in any shape. It was all about the standard of teaching, how the schools dealt with kids with needs (dsylexia, ADD etc...), what sport facilities, range of subjects etc... And in some cases the league tables were looked at but most people take that with a grain of salt I think, as its only one measure of a schools performance.

But the poll won't lie, and a more balanced report can be achieved by comparing the A%A and Christian results.

Esel

Gerry T wrote: »

I know, but what forum would give a best result ? I was thinking of putting the same poll into Christianity after this closes today. Give that till the end of the week and come back to both posts with the results.

Interestingly enough, After Hours is probably where you will get the highest number of voters.

Serious issues are often discussed/voted on there with very little muppetry, believe it or not.

If you are looking for the most representative area of Boards for your poll, on a controversial topic such as this, then AH is your best bet, imo. Concentrate on the poll results, not so much on (some of) the posts.

shruikan2553

Esel wrote: »

Interestingly enough, After Hours is probably where you will get the highest number of voters.

Serious issues are often discussed/voted on there with very little muppetry, believe it or not.

If you are looking for the most representative area of Boards for your poll, on a controversial topic such as this, then AH is your best bet, imo. Concentrate on the poll results, not so much on (some of) the posts.

Oh Dawkins don't bring it to AH. If its not catholic or protestant you are a terrorist or awkward teenager trying to rebel.

Esel

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Oh Dawkins don't bring it to AH. If its not catholic or protestant you are a terrorist or awkward teenager trying to rebel.

Ranters will rant on a thread like this in AH, but they are usually too lazy to vote. Hence why I said to look at the poll results and ignore the muppets.

Gerry T

Esel wrote: »

Ranters will rant on a thread like this in AH, but they are usually too lazy to vote. Hence why I said to look at the poll results and ignore the muppets.

I thought AH would just make a mockery of this topic but now that comment will start another debate

Gerry T

Ok poll has closed in A&A, and the results speak for themselves. The majority prefer if the status quo changed as approx 4% want the current system of RE education (90% with RCC primary school). The vast majority split between either no education or a general education class, but a general education class does take 52% to no RE education at 44%.
I have posted this poll in Christianity and will compile the two polls over the weekend and post back for those interested.
I would ask if you voted here that you don't vote there (that's people in all option categories, thanks)
You would think I'm taking this very seriously :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

The islam forum could be interesting too...

Gerry T

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The islam forum could be interesting too...

Your right that would give a feedback from a certain perspective. Maybe I should post there, will see how the Christianity forum poll goes first.

nagirrac

Cabaal wrote: »

Be worth doing, I think I know what the results will be though

Interestingly enough, although the numbers voting are much lower (so far at least), the results are almost identical. I would be entirely unsurprised by this, and indeed I would suggest if a nationwide poll were conducted in Ireland, or a referendum on the subject, a large majority would be in favor of no religion in schools or a general religion class teaching about all religions.

Most people in western societies today who are religious also favor a secular society. Remember it was theists who established the concept of separation of church and state in western democracies, for example all of the founders of the US constitution and bill of rights were theists. There is no inherent conflict between being religious and favoring secularism, this is why portraying secularism as an atheist versus theist battleground is an error in my opinion.

Gerry T

@nagirrac
Yes the poll so far is interesting. The lower numbers could be because people that all ready posted in A&A that would have in the other poll won't. BUt lets wait till friday to see how it finishes

Gerry T

For those not following the thread, a copy of this was but into both the A&A and Christianity forums. Combining both polls the results would be

Schools teaching a single belief 9 people 8.11%
Schools teaching no belief 46 people 41.44%
Schools teaching all beliefs 56 people 50.45%

Over half the people that participated would like schools to teach a general RE class covering all beliefs, followed closely by roughly 42% preferring no RE teaching and only 8% wanting a single belief.

Even when you only look at the Christianity form results, only 30% wanted to teach a single belief system, the obvious conclusion from those that participated is the current system of RCC dominating over 90% of all schools in the country is not wanted.
The majority choice in the Christianity forum was for schools to teach all belief systems at 41% which was also the majority in A&A at 52%.

Christianity
Schools teaching a single belief 5 people 29.41%
Schools teaching no belief 5 people 29.41%
Schools teaching all beliefs 7 people 41.18%

A&A
Schools teaching a single belief 4 people 4.26%
Schools teaching no belief 41 people 43.62%
Schools teaching all beliefs 49 people 52.13%

Cabaal

Curious if the results would be very different in the Islamic forum, worth a try posting it?