PP for attic conversion

mickman

Hi guys

I see a lot of conflicting info about whether PP is needed for an attic conversion.

I know of an awful lot of people who just got the job done and never went for planning etc.

If the head space if over 8 feet and the velux windows are at the back is it exempt ? space up there is quite large .

Also - does the stairs up to it have to be closed off and fire doors installed on the 1st floor ?

Thanks

RITwing

Broadly speaking planning permission
For use as habitable space - yes
For use as storage no.

Personally I have never prepared an application for "storage" where I knew well it would be used for habitable.
Neither have I prepared an exemption certificate for existing conversions when asked to do so.
I lost work over this - others rushed in to do so.

RITwing

For building regs - see here

You comply.

Or you don't

Gumbo

Planning required if adding a dormer.
Only velux then no planning required in theory but you should if it's a habitable space but you need to adhere to the building regs either way.

Let's say you don't meet the height rule ( and the height is not 8 feet at the centre btw), it's a calculation of circulation space at 1.5m and 2.4m to conform to Part F of the Building Regulations.

No matter whether you have the space or not, most people will still use it as a bed room. My advice on this would be to build it as if you had to meet the requirements of a habitable room, so in short I would be :

Fire proofing and structural steel going in (painted or boxed out).
Expand the fire detection system into new additional storey of the dwelling.
Put a fire door set into the new bedroom.
Make sure at least one of the velux can be used as a means of escape (diagram in Part B of the TGD).
Fire line the escape route if possible to front door.
In the case of loft conversions, when only the attic is being altered, hi don't need to add fire doors at ground or first floor level, but you do need to retrofit the small self closer devices to habitable rooms entering the landing/halfway.

That's my non exhaustive list. Feel free to add to that though.

DOCARCH

kceire wrote: »

Let's say you don't meet the height rule ( and the height is not 8 feet at the centre btw), it's a calculation of circulation space at 1.5m and 2.4m to conform to Part F of the Building Regulations.

No matter whether you have the space or not, most people will still use it as a bed room. My advice on this would be to build it as if you had to meet the requirements of a habitable room, so in short I would be :

Part B of the Building Regulations defines a habitable room...A room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area less than 6.5 m2, a bathroom, toilet or shower room.

So no matter the height of the ceilings, nearly any room in an attic conversion could or might be considered habitable?

mickman

kceire wrote: »

Planning required if adding a dormer.
Only velux then no planning required in theory but you should if it's a habitable space but you need to adhere to the building regs either way.

Let's say you don't meet the height rule ( and the height is not 8 feet at the centre btw), it's a calculation of circulation space at 1.5m and 2.4m to conform to Part F of the Building Regulations.

No matter whether you have the space or not, most people will still use it as a bed room. My advice on this would be to build it as if you had to meet the requirements of a habitable room, so in short I would be :

Fire proofing and structural steel going in (painted or boxed out).
Expand the fire detection system into new additional storey of the dwelling.
Put a fire door set into the new bedroom.
Make sure at least one of the velux can be used as a means of escape (diagram in Part B of the TGD).
Fire line the escape route if possible to front door.
In the case of loft conversions, when only the attic is being altered, hi don't need to add fire doors at ground or first floor level, but you do need to retrofit the small self closer devices to habitable rooms entering the landing/halfway.

That's my non exhaustive list. Feel free to add to that though.

So I don't need fire doors at first floor? Most rooms on first floor open to hall / landing so all these need to b fire doors ?

I would say almost no one does this correctly. Any house I have been in doesn't have it done like this

DOCARCH

mickman wrote: »

I would say almost no one does this correctly.

Correct! I'd suggest very few attic conversions, especially attic conversions to (existing) 2 storey houses, actually comply with the Building Regulations (all relevant parts).

mickman

DOCARCH wrote: »

Correct! I'd suggest very few attic conversions, especially attic conversions to (existing) 2 storey houses, actually comply with the Building Regulations (all relevant parts).

and is this is an issue ? I mean if insurance was an issue then this would surely be reported ? are people just taking the chance that they never have a fire or does insurance pay out anyway

RITwing

mickman wrote: »

and is this is an issue ?

I have seen a)house sales delayed and an b) attemepetd re finance fail over this matter

mickman

RITwing wrote: »

I have seen a)house sales delayed and an b) attemepetd re finance fail over this matter

ok thanks.

Had an engineer out - he reckons i have to put up a wall to shield off stairs alright

Gumbo

mickman wrote: »

So I don't need fire doors at first floor? Most rooms on first floor open to hall / landing so all these need to b fire doors ?

I would say almost no one does this correctly. Any house I have been in doesn't have it done like this

They are in breach of the Building Regulations then.

You don't need fire door sets at first floor if only altering the attic, but you do have to fix the self closer devices to all habitable rooms entering the landing and hall way.

Section 1.5.7 of Part B of the TGD (Loft Conversions)

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1640,en.pdf

kilclon

DOCARCH wrote: »

Part B of the Building Regulations defines a habitable room...A room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area less than 6.5 m2, a bathroom, toilet or shower room.

So no matter the height of the ceilings, nearly any room in an attic conversion could or might be considered habitable?

Yeah, this is the conclusion I have come to. Part F only provides a suggested height as far as I can see. Does anybody have a different opinion on it?

If this is the case the new 'third' floor should comply with part B regardless of the height.

Can anyone clarify for me when a two story house actually becomes a three story house? I would imagine that its when a permanent stairs is put in place rather than a folding attic stairs?

DOCARCH

kilclon wrote: »

Can anyone clarify for me when a two story house actually becomes a three story house? I would imagine that its when a permanent stairs is put in place rather than a folding attic stairs?

I think that's as good a definition as any.

mickman

so guys - lets keep it simple

I have a very large loft with well over 8 feet in space

If i put windows to the rear - install fire doors in the appropriate place and then close off the stairs to the 3rd floor

will this suffice and no need for planning ?

sydthebeat

mickman wrote: »

so guys - lets keep it simple

I have a very large loft with well over 8 feet in space

If i put windows to the rear - install fire doors in the appropriate place and then close off the stairs to the 3rd floor

will this suffice and no need for planning ?

If the space can be used as a habitable area, then yes you do need planning.

mickman

sydthebeat wrote: »

If the space can be used as a habitable area, then yes you do need planning.

ok fair enough so you always need planning if going to have a bedroom

or else i do like 99% of people and dont get planning and live up there anyway :-)

RITwing

mickman wrote: »

or else i do like 99% of people and dont get planning and live up there anyway :-)

Don't ask don't tell is the way alright.

Untill oneday a freak number of tragedys will occur within a relatively short space of time. Fat Kenny , Miriam and all the other media propelor heads will generate a lot of heat awarness through inciteful debate. Hands will be wrung.

Callers to Joe Duffer will ask how could "they" "let this happen". Minister will pass law that purports to adress the issue but it will not.

Or maybe this is just me needing my morning coffee....

BryanF

mickman wrote: »

ok fair enough so you always need planning if going to have a bedroom

or else i do like 99% of people and dont get planning and live up there anyway :-)

Mick, Please read the forum charter before posting again, thank you

to sum up: Respect the law
Any thread/post that is looking for ways to get around the planning process, or building regulations, or any other statutory legislation, or advising somebody to ignore these legislations and regulations, will be deleted and the poster will be banned indefinitely.

you have been politely informed:

1. your attic needs planning if you intend to use it as a habitable space.
2. alterations are required to ensure fire/structure/ventilation and other building regulations are meet.

if you choose to ignore this:

1. you are breaking the law
2. making a potential death trap for your family
3. create legal problems if you ever come to sell, re-mortgage or pass on the house to your family

BryanF

RITwing wrote: »

Callers to Joe Duffer will ask how could "they" "let this happen". Minister will pass law that purports to adress the issue but it will not.

Or maybe this is just me needing my morning coffee....

get your coffee quick!

we don't need to drag this thread down to Joe duffy's level thanks

kilclon

Just talked to planner and he said that pp isn't required as long as roof line doesn't change and no additional windows to the side or front of the house. This was in a phone conversation.
Probably best to get a Section 5 declaration as there seems to be a lot of confusion on the planning side of things.

RITwing

kilclon wrote: »

Just talked to planner and he said that pp isn't required as long as roof line doesn't change and no additional windows to the side or front of the house. This was in a phone conversation.
Probably best to get a Section 5 declaration as there seems to be a lot of confusion on the planning side of things.

Sorry but that conversation is not worth the paper it is written on

kilclon

Hence the reason for the section 5 application suggestion.

You could obv say the same about this thread.

RITwing

Ok what written guidance DO we have.

Schedule 2 of SI 600 / 2001. What text in particular exempts attic conversions ?

Section 4(1)(h) P+DA 2000. Means everything and nothing - an income stream for lawyers no use to anyone else.

That leaves us with the guidance of our conciences. There once was a time in Ireland when most people would genuinely regard it as hard luck to be done for drink driving.

RITwing

kilclon wrote: »

You could obv say the same about this thread.

anyone using the internet for guidance is at the mercy of strangers

mickman

kilclon wrote: »

Just talked to planner and he said that pp isn't required as long as roof line doesn't change and no additional windows to the side or front of the house. This was in a phone conversation.
Probably best to get a Section 5 declaration as there seems to be a lot of confusion on the planning side of things.

A planner said this ???

Dear god - which was is it!!

BryanF

mickman wrote: »

A planner said this ???

Dear god - which was is it!!

The question is ' do you have this in writing'?

mickman

BryanF wrote: »

The question is ' do you have this in writing'?

yeah but surely a planner would know

RITwing

don't call him shirley

kilclon

There are architects here who know you definitely need planning. There are others who know that you definitely don't need it. There are still others who aren't sure. I've an eng degree and a masters in planning and development and I don't know. I called a planner and he said you don't need it for what I described.
It probably varies with interpretation and with the different authorities.
The only thing I know for sure is that I won't be doing any such work to my own house without planning permission or a declaration stating that planning permission isn't required. Following any other course of action could prove to be a very expensive mistake.

RITwing

kilclon wrote: »

There are architects here who know you definitely need planning.

For myself I have taken the view and held to it for many years without contradiction satisfactory to myself ( see post no 23 ) that permision is required.

mickman should not call on the likes of me in due course to "sign it off" when he needs to sell on

BryanF

mickman wrote: »

yeah but surely a planner would know

Know what? Without seeing drawings? Without receiving written correspondence?