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PP for attic conversion

  • 08-09-2014 7:24pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661
    ✭✭✭


    Hi guys

    I see a lot of conflicting info about whether PP is needed for an attic conversion.

    I know of an awful lot of people who just got the job done and never went for planning etc.

    If the head space if over 8 feet and the velux windows are at the back is it exempt ? space up there is quite large .

    Also - does the stairs up to it have to be closed off and fire doors installed on the 1st floor ?

    Thanks


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
    ✭✭


    Broadly speaking planning permission
    For use as habitable space - yes
    For use as storage no.

    Personally I have never prepared an application for "storage" where I knew well it would be used for habitable.
    Neither have I prepared an exemption certificate for existing conversions when asked to do so.
    I lost work over this - others rushed in to do so.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
    ✭✭


    For building regs - see here

    You comply.

    Or you don't


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,354 Gumbo
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Planning required if adding a dormer.
    Only velux then no planning required in theory but you should if it's a habitable space but you need to adhere to the building regs either way.

    Let's say you don't meet the height rule ( and the height is not 8 feet at the centre btw), it's a calculation of circulation space at 1.5m and 2.4m to conform to Part F of the Building Regulations.

    No matter whether you have the space or not, most people will still use it as a bed room. My advice on this would be to build it as if you had to meet the requirements of a habitable room, so in short I would be :

    Fire proofing and structural steel going in (painted or boxed out).
    Expand the fire detection system into new additional storey of the dwelling.
    Put a fire door set into the new bedroom.
    Make sure at least one of the velux can be used as a means of escape (diagram in Part B of the TGD).
    Fire line the escape route if possible to front door.
    In the case of loft conversions, when only the attic is being altered, hi don't need to add fire doors at ground or first floor level, but you do need to retrofit the small self closer devices to habitable rooms entering the landing/halfway.

    That's my non exhaustive list. Feel free to add to that though.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,450 DOCARCH
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    kceire wrote: »
    Let's say you don't meet the height rule ( and the height is not 8 feet at the centre btw), it's a calculation of circulation space at 1.5m and 2.4m to conform to Part F of the Building Regulations.

    No matter whether you have the space or not, most people will still use it as a bed room. My advice on this would be to build it as if you had to meet the requirements of a habitable room, so in short I would be :

    Part B of the Building Regulations defines a habitable room...A room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area less than 6.5 m2, a bathroom, toilet or shower room.

    So no matter the height of the ceilings, nearly any room in an attic conversion could or might be considered habitable?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
    ✭✭✭


    kceire wrote: »
    Planning required if adding a dormer.
    Only velux then no planning required in theory but you should if it's a habitable space but you need to adhere to the building regs either way.

    Let's say you don't meet the height rule ( and the height is not 8 feet at the centre btw), it's a calculation of circulation space at 1.5m and 2.4m to conform to Part F of the Building Regulations.

    No matter whether you have the space or not, most people will still use it as a bed room. My advice on this would be to build it as if you had to meet the requirements of a habitable room, so in short I would be :

    Fire proofing and structural steel going in (painted or boxed out).
    Expand the fire detection system into new additional storey of the dwelling.
    Put a fire door set into the new bedroom.
    Make sure at least one of the velux can be used as a means of escape (diagram in Part B of the TGD).
    Fire line the escape route if possible to front door.
    In the case of loft conversions, when only the attic is being altered, hi don't need to add fire doors at ground or first floor level, but you do need to retrofit the small self closer devices to habitable rooms entering the landing/halfway.

    That's my non exhaustive list. Feel free to add to that though.

    So I don't need fire doors at first floor? Most rooms on first floor open to hall / landing so all these need to b fire doors ?

    I would say almost no one does this correctly. Any house I have been in doesn't have it done like this


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,450 DOCARCH
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    mickman wrote: »
    I would say almost no one does this correctly.

    Correct! I'd suggest very few attic conversions, especially attic conversions to (existing) 2 storey houses, actually comply with the Building Regulations (all relevant parts).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
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    DOCARCH wrote: »
    Correct! I'd suggest very few attic conversions, especially attic conversions to (existing) 2 storey houses, actually comply with the Building Regulations (all relevant parts).

    and is this is an issue ? I mean if insurance was an issue then this would surely be reported ? are people just taking the chance that they never have a fire or does insurance pay out anyway


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
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    mickman wrote: »
    and is this is an issue ?

    I have seen a)house sales delayed and an b) attemepetd re finance fail over this matter


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
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    RITwing wrote: »
    I have seen a)house sales delayed and an b) attemepetd re finance fail over this matter

    ok thanks.

    Had an engineer out - he reckons i have to put up a wall to shield off stairs alright


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,354 Gumbo
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    mickman wrote: »
    So I don't need fire doors at first floor? Most rooms on first floor open to hall / landing so all these need to b fire doors ?

    I would say almost no one does this correctly. Any house I have been in doesn't have it done like this

    They are in breach of the Building Regulations then.

    You don't need fire door sets at first floor if only altering the attic, but you do have to fix the self closer devices to all habitable rooms entering the landing and hall way.

    Section 1.5.7 of Part B of the TGD (Loft Conversions)

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1640,en.pdf


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 kilclon
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    DOCARCH wrote: »
    Part B of the Building Regulations defines a habitable room...A room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area less than 6.5 m2, a bathroom, toilet or shower room.

    So no matter the height of the ceilings, nearly any room in an attic conversion could or might be considered habitable?

    Yeah, this is the conclusion I have come to. Part F only provides a suggested height as far as I can see. Does anybody have a different opinion on it?

    If this is the case the new 'third' floor should comply with part B regardless of the height.

    Can anyone clarify for me when a two story house actually becomes a three story house? I would imagine that its when a permanent stairs is put in place rather than a folding attic stairs?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,450 DOCARCH
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    kilclon wrote: »
    Can anyone clarify for me when a two story house actually becomes a three story house? I would imagine that its when a permanent stairs is put in place rather than a folding attic stairs?

    I think that's as good a definition as any.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
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    so guys - lets keep it simple

    I have a very large loft with well over 8 feet in space

    If i put windows to the rear - install fire doors in the appropriate place and then close off the stairs to the 3rd floor

    will this suffice and no need for planning ?


  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 sydthebeat
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    mickman wrote: »
    so guys - lets keep it simple

    I have a very large loft with well over 8 feet in space

    If i put windows to the rear - install fire doors in the appropriate place and then close off the stairs to the 3rd floor

    will this suffice and no need for planning ?

    If the space can be used as a habitable area, then yes you do need planning.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
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    sydthebeat wrote: »
    If the space can be used as a habitable area, then yes you do need planning.

    ok fair enough so you always need planning if going to have a bedroom

    or else i do like 99% of people and dont get planning and live up there anyway :-)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
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    mickman wrote: »
    or else i do like 99% of people and dont get planning and live up there anyway :-)

    Don't ask don't tell is the way alright.

    Untill oneday a freak number of tragedys will occur within a relatively short space of time. Fat Kenny , Miriam and all the other media propelor heads will generate a lot of heat awarness through inciteful debate. Hands will be wrung.

    Callers to Joe Duffer will ask how could "they" "let this happen". Minister will pass law that purports to adress the issue but it will not.

    Or maybe this is just me needing my morning coffee....


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 BryanF
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    mickman wrote: »
    ok fair enough so you always need planning if going to have a bedroom

    or else i do like 99% of people and dont get planning and live up there anyway :-)
    Mick, Please read the forum charter before posting again, thank you

    to sum up: Respect the law
    Any thread/post that is looking for ways to get around the planning process, or building regulations, or any other statutory legislation, or advising somebody to ignore these legislations and regulations, will be deleted and the poster will be banned indefinitely.


    you have been politely informed:
    1. your attic needs planning if you intend to use it as a habitable space.
    2. alterations are required to ensure fire/structure/ventilation and other building regulations are meet.
    if you choose to ignore this:
    1. you are breaking the law
    2. making a potential death trap for your family
    3. create legal problems if you ever come to sell, re-mortgage or pass on the house to your family


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 BryanF
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    RITwing wrote: »
    Callers to Joe Duffer will ask how could "they" "let this happen". Minister will pass law that purports to adress the issue but it will not.

    Or maybe this is just me needing my morning coffee....
    get your coffee quick!

    we don't need to drag this thread down to Joe duffy's level thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 kilclon
    ✭✭


    Just talked to planner and he said that pp isn't required as long as roof line doesn't change and no additional windows to the side or front of the house. This was in a phone conversation.
    Probably best to get a Section 5 declaration as there seems to be a lot of confusion on the planning side of things.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
    ✭✭


    kilclon wrote: »
    Just talked to planner and he said that pp isn't required as long as roof line doesn't change and no additional windows to the side or front of the house. This was in a phone conversation.
    Probably best to get a Section 5 declaration as there seems to be a lot of confusion on the planning side of things.

    Sorry but that conversation is not worth the paper it is written on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 kilclon
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    Hence the reason for the section 5 application suggestion.

    You could obv say the same about this thread.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
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    Ok what written guidance DO we have.

    Schedule 2 of SI 600 / 2001. What text in particular exempts attic conversions ?

    Section 4(1)(h) P+DA 2000. Means everything and nothing - an income stream for lawyers no use to anyone else.

    That leaves us with the guidance of our conciences. There once was a time in Ireland when most people would genuinely regard it as hard luck to be done for drink driving.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
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    kilclon wrote: »
    You could obv say the same about this thread.

    anyone using the internet for guidance is at the mercy of strangers


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
    ✭✭✭


    kilclon wrote: »
    Just talked to planner and he said that pp isn't required as long as roof line doesn't change and no additional windows to the side or front of the house. This was in a phone conversation.
    Probably best to get a Section 5 declaration as there seems to be a lot of confusion on the planning side of things.

    A planner said this ???

    Dear god - which was is it!!


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 BryanF
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    mickman wrote: »
    A planner said this ???

    Dear god - which was is it!!

    The question is ' do you have this in writing'?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
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    BryanF wrote: »
    The question is ' do you have this in writing'?

    yeah but surely a planner would know


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
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    don't call him shirley


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 kilclon
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    There are architects here who know you definitely need planning. There are others who know that you definitely don't need it. There are still others who aren't sure. I've an eng degree and a masters in planning and development and I don't know. I called a planner and he said you don't need it for what I described.
    It probably varies with interpretation and with the different authorities.
    The only thing I know for sure is that I won't be doing any such work to my own house without planning permission or a declaration stating that planning permission isn't required. Following any other course of action could prove to be a very expensive mistake.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
    ✭✭


    kilclon wrote: »
    There are architects here who know you definitely need planning.

    For myself I have taken the view and held to it for many years without contradiction satisfactory to myself ( see post no 23 ) that permision is required.

    mickman should not call on the likes of me in due course to "sign it off" when he needs to sell on


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,146 BryanF
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    mickman wrote: »
    yeah but surely a planner would know

    Know what? Without seeing drawings? Without receiving written correspondence?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
    ✭✭✭


    BryanF wrote: »
    Know what? Without seeing drawings? Without receiving written correspondence?

    know that all attic conversions need planning - unless of course the person tells them that it will be used for storage only


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 Mearfada


    Equally so you cannot refer to text that states that permission is required for an attic conversion. I have been down this road numerous times and can tell you from my experience that its subjective and varies from authority to authority. IMO if its urban and connected to mains services and there are no significant elevational changes then it can be considered exempt but the grey area arises from a planning perspective in relation to the roof windows. any property with existing roof windows that can be manipulated and utilised to comply with regs should have no issues but then again as i say its subjective so i would advise seeking certificate of exemption.

    In the UK the height of roof windows is a sensitive issue with regard to overlooking and for non bedroom conversions above eye level windows are acceptable. I have never had an issue with an internal alteration save for listed buildings..the most important aspect of conversions is safety and that it complies with the building regs but this is a separate to whether planning is or is not required. I have asked the dept to issue a guidance doc on this for clarity but they have so far refused to do so which only adds to the confusion


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,354 Gumbo
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Mearfada wrote: »
    Equally so you cannot refer to text that states that permission is required for an attic conversion. I have been down this road numerous times and can tell you from my experience that its subjective and varies from authority to authority. IMO if its urban and connected to mains services and there are no significant elevational changes then it can be considered exempt but the grey area arises from a planning perspective in relation to the roof windows. any property with existing roof windows that can be manipulated and utilised to comply with regs should have no issues but then again as i say its subjective so i would advise seeking certificate of exemption.

    In the UK the height of roof windows is a sensitive issue with regard to overlooking and for non bedroom conversions above eye level windows are acceptable. I have never had an issue with an internal alteration save for listed buildings..the most important aspect of conversions is safety and that it complies with the building regs but this is a separate to whether planning is or is not required. I have asked the dept to issue a guidance doc on this for clarity but they have so far refused to do so which only adds to the confusion

    Like this?

    http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/BuildingStandards/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,1657,en.pdf


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
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    the debate rages on!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
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    Mearfada wrote: »
    Equally so you cannot refer to text that states that permission is required for an attic conversion.

    But one can place duty of care to ones' clients to the fore. The risk to the safety of users of attic conversions have compeled me to take a very narrow view which is if it is not explicitly exempted - it requires planning permision - commenecment notice - building regs compliant design - site insepections and sign off upon completion.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
    ✭✭


    mickman wrote: »
    the debate rages on!

    grabs popcorn :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 Mearfada


    the PDF link posted kceire is a best practise guide relating to construction and regs...take the time to read through it and show me where it clarifies the position on whether loft conversions are exempt or not?

    What many people fail to understand is that their is a difference between Building Regs and Planning..Once a development of any kind complies fully with the regs irrespective of planning permission exemptions or planning requirements it is deemed to be built to spec for fire safety purposes etc etc...Planning on the other hand is largely an aesthetic process when it comes to modifications or extensions to domestic dwellings..when one applies for permission the level of drawing detail to be submitted for the Planning element is minimal in comparison to details required for Building Reg Compliance...planners are not concerned about the regs because its not their job...Planners have to look at issues around neighbours amenity, overlooking, scale, mass etc etc...the head height or the pitch of the stairs is not within a planners remit period


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
    ✭✭


    Sadly what many people understand is that no need for planning permison = just get the builders in. And the hard lesson about building regulations is only discovered years later.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 Mearfada


    Very True RITwing...I strongly advise anyone getting substantial work done to research everything thoroughly in advance...i'm just clarifying the planning position as I see it...sadly many people interpret planning and building regs to be one and the same


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 kilclon
    ✭✭


    Am I right in saying that an attic conversion is a material alteration, and a material alteration requires a commencement notice, assigned certifier, builder, full set of construction drawings etc?
    If all of this is required anyway, it wouldn't be a huge cost implication to apply for pp as well, although it would delay the project a few months.

    The explanatory leaflet, although useful from a bregs point of view, doesn't adequately address the pp issue. It does however state this:

    'In the case of older houses, particularly those of architectural / historic importance the application
    of the guidance set out in TGDB (Fire Safety) on Part B of the Building Regulations will not
    always be appropriate; and alternative approaches to meeting the fire safety requirements
    of the Building Regulations will need to be considered. If your house is a protected structure
    (or a proposed protected structure), under the Planning Act 2000, you may require planning
    permission for an attic / loft conversion.
    You, or your professional adviser, should contact the
    Conservation Officer in the local planning authority, well in advance of designing or
    carrying out the work'

    In my view, this implies that if the house is not a protected structure, planning permission is not required. However, as others have pointed out, I too haven't seen anything in the legislation backing this up.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
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    i also heard someplace that the attic when converted has to be one open room - in other words it cant be divided up

    is this true ?


  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 sydthebeat
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    mickman wrote: »
    i also heard someplace that the attic when converted has to be one open room - in other words it cant be divided up

    is this true ?

    no


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
    ✭✭✭




  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 sydthebeat
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    mickman wrote: »

    did you even read that article?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,661 mickman
    ✭✭✭


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    did you even read that article?

    ?

    yes

    The last main point to avail of planning exemption is that the room must not be sub-divided. It must remain as one open space and even placing a toilet in the area renders it illegal from a planning point of view. This is a contentious issue with many people. Assuming planning permission is not necessary, they go ahead and convert the attic into a number of bedrooms, only to find if they go to sell or re-mortgage the house that an architect will not issue a planning compliance certificate.


  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 sydthebeat
    ✭✭✭✭


    ? you never mentioned anything about 'planning exempt'....

    you asked
    the attic when converted has to be one open room - in other words it cant be divided up

    thats quite a simple statement, and one which is clearly incorrect.


    looks its very simple.
    an attic conversion which can be used for habitable purposes requires planning permission

    if you have any doubts on this, contact your local planning authority.

    edit: to flesh this out

    Different councils are free to interpret the planning and development acts in whatever manner they deem fit, they are legally protected to do so AFAIK. This leads to loads of differing opinions throughout the country, when theres no statutory exemption on attic conversions.
    All parties claiming conversions are exempt are referring to section 4 1 h of P+D act 2000. Local authorities have a very narrow view about what constitutes exemption in accordance to this section, whereas ABP and courts have been less restrictive in their decisions when asked.
    These differing views leads to the complete mess we have currently...
    for example some councils include attic conversion areas as cumulative when deciding if further extensions are exempt, whereas other LAs dont.
    some LAs say that dormer windows require permission whereas rooflights dont.
    some say only rooflights to rear are exempt (regardless of having no statutory basis to say so)
    some say all windows to rear are exempt
    some say the proposed use is the determining factor
    some say the possible use is the determining factor


    so in the light of all this mess, those of us who are left to certify these works as exempt or not take a very simple view of them....
    readily habitable = permission required
    uninhabitable = planning exempt.


    if we go into an attic space that has a fixed stairs, a small rooflight high up and has a 6 1/2' floor to ceiling height, we generally would accept that the space isnt habitable. However if it has a fixed stairs, a fire escape rooflight, fixed heating system, decent floor to ceiling height (anthing above 2.1m is enough for me) then it can be used as habitable space and therefore requires planning.
    if the client doesnt accept this fine, i walk, and suggest they apply for a section V declaration.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,547 Poor Uncle Tom
    ✭✭✭✭


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    those of us who are left to certify these works as exempt or not take a very simple view of them....
    readily habitable = permission required
    uninhabitable = planning exempt.

    Simples


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,354 Gumbo
    Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Mearfada wrote: »
    What many people fail to understand is that their is a difference between Building Regs and Planning..Once a development of any kind complies fully with the regs irrespective of planning permission exemptions or planning requirements it is deemed to be built to spec for fire safety purposes etc etc...Planning on the other hand is largely an aesthetic process when it comes to modifications or extensions to domestic dwellings..when one applies for permission the level of drawing detail to be submitted for the Planning element is minimal in comparison to details required for Building Reg Compliance...planners are not concerned about the regs because its not their job...Planners have to look at issues around neighbours amenity, overlooking, scale, mass etc etc...the head height or the pitch of the stairs is not within a planners remit period

    I have a distinct feeling, that I'm quite aware of that ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 Mearfada


    Syd maybe if you qualified your statement on habitable attic space requiring permission as being your opinion and interpretation and one that you advance to clients who engage your services


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 RITwing
    ✭✭


    Can you re phrase ? Maybe what ?
    It sounds like you left the point of your post out.
    Certifiers are engaged to offer opinions on compliance with planning permision after all.


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