EBI.

Dawggone

So, is EBI everything, and why?

Greengrass1

Dawggone wrote: »

So, is EBI everything, and why?

Can of worms
I think so. Has delivered here any way

mahoney_j

For me yes,u have to use it to your advantage though and make breeding decisions based on milk recording records as well.match low milk cows with high milk bulls,aim for high kg solids with preference for protein,it pays more.pick traits from bulls that will improve what u already have.its delievering what it's meant to,a fertile cow that goes back in calf and will produce lots of milk and solids from quality grass

mf240

Yes and no.

Its a good guide and as mahoney says if your pick the sub indexes to suit the cow you can improve her weaknesses.

Not the be all and end all . And maybe not for everyone but worth considering.

Milked out

Dawggone wrote: »

So, is EBI everything, and why?

Not everything but to figure out if it's working it would need to be compared to what went previously as well as what is used elsewhere? Any one have experience of European American or nz indexes able to compare?
Teagasc are doing a high ebi v avg ebi trial it's in the second year I think but of course they started wrong again by having only half the no of avg ebi cows as high. If they want to do these comparisons right everything in the experiment should be exactly the same. Must s check if they are in separate herds or not bit I assume they should be kept in the one herd so all cows receive the exact same conditions and treatment

stanflt

365 ci from 427
9023l delivered per cow incl culls and dry cows
2.4ton of con per cow
only 3 2nd calvers not classified vg

blackdog1

Its a great tool stan but I wonder how much of those figures are down to your management skills rather than ebi?. A high ebi in itself means nothing its a combination of both good management and breeding that makes the difference.

jaymla627

Biggest problem in my eyes is that way to much emphasis on fertility/milk/kilos of f and p while other things like health, temperament etc barely make up 5% of a cows ebi

Milked out

jaymla627 wrote: »

Biggest problem in my eyes is that way to much emphasis on fertility/milk/kilos of f and p while other things like health, temperament etc barely make up 5% of a cows ebi

The issue there Is fert and milk figures are recored more often and accurately whereas health and temperament are not. Until this changes you can't put too much weighting on them otherwise I would agree

Timmaay

Health and fertility surely are very closely linked though? A fertile cow who goes back incalf every year is obviously fairly healthy?

Future Farmer

jaymla627 wrote: »

Biggest problem in my eyes is that way to much emphasis on fertility/milk/kilos of f and p while other things like health, temperament etc barely make up 5% of a cows ebi

Think they should fix Fert and Milk first before then move on to the others....

stanflt

Future Farmer wrote: »

Think they should fix Fert and Milk first before then move on to the others....

I've the whole herd genotyped now and Fert and milk figures are completely accurate when you cross reference the figures with calving interval and milk recording

What do you think is wrong

Future Farmer

stanflt wrote: »

I've the whole herd genotyped now and Fert and milk figures are completely accurate when you cross reference the figures with calving interval and milk recording

What do you think is wrong

NATIONALLY

The average calving interval has improved by three days from 397 days in 2012 to 394 days in 2013.

The average calving interval on Irish farms at 394 days is almost a month longer than the ideal target of 365 days.

The median calving date is about Mar 10, while the optimum target for most farmers is about Feb 20.

The average six-week calving rate is 58%, while the best Irish farmers have over 60%, and the ideal target is 70%.

Pregnancy rates to first service have been around 53%, while the target is 68%.

Submission rate is only 60%, and the ideal target is 90%, but of course, this is impossible for most herds where a scattered calving pattern exists.

Calves per cow per year are 0.89, while the target is 0.95.

A deeper examination of the fertility performance on Irish herds shows huge variation between herds.

For example, the best 5% had a calving interval of 362 days, while the calving interval on the worst 5% was 450 days.

The best 5% had 1.02 calves per year, while the worst 5% had only 0.66.

The percentage of heifers calved at 22 to 26 months was 100% in the best herds, while none were calved at that age on the worst 5% herds.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/dairy/fertility-a-major-influence-on-profitability-244342.html

What are your selection critera for bulls?

You must have a good handle on it, what is your average solids?

stanflt

Future Farmer wrote: »

NATIONALLY

The average calving interval has improved by three days from 397 days in 2012 to 394 days in 2013.

The average calving interval on Irish farms at 394 days is almost a month longer than the ideal target of 365 days.

The median calving date is about Mar 10, while the optimum target for most farmers is about Feb 20.

The average six-week calving rate is 58%, while the best Irish farmers have over 60%, and the ideal target is 70%.

Pregnancy rates to first service have been around 53%, while the target is 68%.

Submission rate is only 60%, and the ideal target is 90%, but of course, this is impossible for most herds where a scattered calving pattern exists.

Calves per cow per year are 0.89, while the target is 0.95.

A deeper examination of the fertility performance on Irish herds shows huge variation between herds.

For example, the best 5% had a calving interval of 362 days, while the calving interval on the worst 5% was 450 days.

The best 5% had 1.02 calves per year, while the worst 5% had only 0.66.

The percentage of heifers calved at 22 to 26 months was 100% in the best herds, while none were calved at that age on the worst 5% herds.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/dairy/fertility-a-major-influence-on-profitability-244342.html

What are your selection critera for bulls?

You must have a good handle on it, what is your average solids?

That reflectes the national Ebi figure for fertility

Think it's around 50ebi nationally which equates to about 400 days

120 Fert is required for 365

Nationally we are miles behind that

The best herds have the highest fertility sub index which further goes against your argueiment


As for picking bulls
+ 50-250 milk kg
+ 30 kg solids
+ 0.1 fat
+ 0.15 p

Plus 120 Fert
And positive on management and health traits

Must be below +1 on stature and above -1 on type

atlantic mist

i like the ebi father doesnt have much mass in it.
the top cows in our herd in our opinion does correspond to ebi
our top ebi goes to a cow that goes in calf with the smell of a bull but other than that we dont rate her at all

joejobrien

That article (future farmer) speaks volumes as to how Irish agriculture precieves EBI.
Yes there is many exceeding these figures well, but I would be confident that management of herd is exceptionally high nowadays and I has little revelance to the EBI responsible fore this. Futhermore it appears complicated to many and I think this maybe areason why many choose a high ebi rating without examining the bull in moree detail. This often leads to a decrease in production but higher % thus leading to higher fertility
Stan, I would fully agree with your selection choice and think more people will eventually follow your idea.
Personally it is atool but not the the complete answer

Future Farmer

Just for the record, I do not fully agree with EBI, it is just a tool to use, and farms can be very different while not being wrong.

EG - Low inputs in cork 100 cows 120,000 gallons OR High inputs in Meath 60 cows 120,000gallons

I know I am getting away from the point but was in Cork recently saw a few herds, they kept going on about GRASS and GRASS but from what I could see the yields were entirely based upon concentrates fed from 300 kg to 2 tonne. Am I wrong?

stanflt

Future Farmer wrote: »

Just for the record, I do not fully agree with EBI, it is just a tool to use, and farms can be very different while not being wrong.

EG - Low inputs in cork 100 cows 120,000 gallons OR High inputs in Meath 60 cows 120,000gallons

I know I am getting away from the point but was in Cork recently saw a few herds, they kept going on about GRASS and GRASS but from what I could see the yields were entirely based upon concentrates fed from 300 kg to 2 tonne. Am I wrong?

You need to come to east Meath to see Ebi 180 grass grass and 1.2 ton concentrate and delivering 7500 litre plus per annum on coop performance not milk recording
Cows classified also

My door is always open and the kettle is always ready

mahoney_j

stanflt wrote: »

I've the whole herd genotyped now and Fert and milk figures are completely accurate when you cross reference the figures with calving interval and milk recording

What do you think is wrong

Stan was there much of an improvement in ebi once u had them genotyped.ive decided to go this route also and am waiting on delievery of kits.

stanflt

mahoney_j wrote: »

Stan was there much of an improvement in ebi once u had them genotyped.ive decided to go this route also and am waiting on delievery of kits.

Yeah Fert went up around 20

Cows calving 365 and holding to service doesn't happen consistently without good fertility

joejobrien

stanflt wrote: »

You need to come to east Meath to see Ebi 180 grass grass and 1.2 ton concentrate and delivering 7500 litre plus per annum on coop performance not milk recording
Cows classified also

My door is always open and the kettle is always ready

Be careful there might be a que ....... and Im first!!!!

Dawggone

Thanks for the discussion everyone.
Fertility seems to be too heavily weighted, and I'm not saying that it's not important!

stanflt

joejobrien wrote: »

Be careful there might be a que ....... and Im first!!!!

any time your welcome- just pm me:)

frazzledhome

Dawggone wrote: »

Thanks for the discussion everyone.
Fertility seems to be too heavily weighted, and I'm not saying that it's not important!

It's to do with the calf per year. Get cow to milk for 305 days and close down for Dec. Glanbia Baileys contract the only real winter bonus and that's closed. All new milk will be seasonal so a cow calving in May will only milk for part if her lactation if closing down

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

It's to do with the calf per year. Get cow to milk for 305 days and close down for Dec. Glanbia Baileys contract the only real winter bonus and that's closed. All new milk will be seasonal so a cow calving in May will only milk for part if her lactation if closing down

Fully understood. But with all the expansion in the industry, surely the processors will need a more even production throughout the year? Or will they go to a skeleton operation during the "close down" period?
If I was a processor I would pay some sort of bonus to have an even supply.
Or will it be like the beet "campaign"?

Timmaay

frazzledhome wrote: »

It's to do with the calf per year. Get cow to milk for 305 days and close down for Dec. Glanbia Baileys contract the only real winter bonus and that's closed. All new milk will be seasonal so a cow calving in May will only milk for part if her lactation if closing down

Even irrespective of the price paid, having may calvers means a strung out calving season and an overlap in your calving and breeding seasons, for the average single labour unit farmer with 100 odd cows this will hugely increase his workload. Fertility is only overrated if you are close to a 365CI now, otherwise both keep in pushing for a more fertile cow and improving your management. Other things like production etc come alot easier.

Dawg, on your point about the processors be under utilitized in the winter, where do the sums put the likes of NZ does anyone know? Surely they are way worse than us for season production but don't appear to be pushed about it?

Milked out

Dairygold afaik shut most plants down for dec/Jan my milk was going to Ballyraggart and arrabawn I think the odd load went further afield. Not sure what will happen when new plants are up and running. The bonus would want to Improve to keep lads at it anyway.

mahoney_j

Timmaay wrote: »

Even irrespective of the price paid, having may calvers means a strung out calving season and an overlap in your calving and breeding seasons, for the average single labour unit farmer with 100 odd cows this will hugely increase his workload. Fertility is only overrated if you are close to a 365CI now, otherwise both keep in pushing for a more fertile cow and improving your management. Other things like production etc come alot easier.

Dawg, on your point about the processors be under utilitized in the winter, where do the sums put the likes of NZ does anyone know? Surely they are way worse than us for season production but don't appear to be pushed about it?

At 365 days ci fertility is certainly not overrated .itll take a bit to get there and once that target is reached you want to stick as close to it as possible.im at 363 now and for last 3 years I'm beteween 361 and 372.one or 2 distinct calving periods has to be the aim ,milk for 305 to 315 days and give cow some down time to recuperate for next season.id hate to have cows calving year round as it creates too much confusion in parlour and leaves heifers uneven.

joejobrien

Dawggone wrote: »

Fully understood. But with all the expansion in the industry, surely the processors will need a more even production throughout the year? Or will they go to a skeleton operation during the "close down" period?
If I was a processor I would pay some sort of bonus to have an even supply.
Or will it be like the beet "campaign"?

Yes your right. As with alot of industries they try to balance production/manfacture/service or what ever over a 12 month peroid and avoid overburden and high peaks then idling for a few months of the year.
Unfortunatly this is approachis not taken by most co ops
Some how I feel that the cheap and cheerful approach is been follow by alot of co ops and dont go out seeking new innovative highend products for all year round supply but are comfortable in relying on the old reliables!
There must be more than Baileys? I think most farmers andthe industry are content to continue to produce commidities:( The EBI creators also believe in this.

mahoney_j

joejobrien wrote: »

Yes your right. As with alot of industries they try to balance production/manfacture/service or what ever over a 12 month peroid and avoid overburden and high peaks then idling for a few months of the year.
Unfortunatly this is approachis not taken by most co ops
Some how I feel that the cheap and cheerful approach is been follow by alot of co ops and dont go out seeking new innovative highend products for all year round supply but are comfortable in relying on the old reliables!
There must be more than Baileys? I think most farmers andthe industry are content to continue to produce commidities:( The EBI creators also believe in this.

If coops paid a price reflective of what it costs to calve and milk through winter I and more would do it.around here now anyone milking through winter is doing it with their April and may calvers mostly which wouldn't have to be fed to same extent as fresh calvers

Dawggone

joejobrien wrote: »

Yes your right. As with alot of industries they try to balance production/manfacture/service or what ever over a 12 month peroid and avoid overburden and high peaks then idling for a few months of the year.
Unfortunatly this is approachis not taken by most co ops
Some how I feel that the cheap and cheerful approach is been follow by alot of co ops and dont go out seeking new innovative highend products for all year round supply but are comfortable in relying on the old reliables!
There must be more than Baileys? I think most farmers andthe industry are content to continue to produce commidities:( The EBI creators also believe in this.

Exactly. Where is all the money on R&D going?
It would be a shame for the industry to become a one trick pony.

just do it

Dawggone wrote: »

Thanks for the discussion everyone.
Fertility seems to be too heavily weighted, and I'm not saying that it's not important!

A cow needs to calve in order to produce milk in the first place! It deserves a high rating. Major issue for suckler farmers is their poor calves per cow ratio. I imagine the same applies in dairy

Timmaay

Moving forward even the likes of a split calving of say 80:20 spring to autumn isn't worth the hassle in my view. If the processors decide they want more season production, I think it will be supplied by full autumn calving herds, lads who are setup to feed a tmr for the 1st few months of the lactation then throw the cows out to grass from Feb onwards. Much simpler system that split calving in my view!

just do it

It suits processors to shut down plants for a decent period to allow overhauls. Looking at those national figures there are half the farmers with plenty late calves and probably take the attitude "sure I may as well milk them away". As long as they're willing to, the co-ops will have enough liquid milk for Dec/Jan and needn't pay a decent bonus.

Milked out

mahoney_j wrote: »

If coops paid a price reflective of what it costs to calve and milk through winter I and more would do it.around here now anyone milking through winter is doing it with their April and may calvers mostly which wouldn't have to be fed to same extent as fresh calvers

The argument the advisor gives against the late calvers as opposed to the fresh calvers is you would need less fresh calvers milking as you would have a cow giving 35l as opposed to 20l with hopefully less scc and lactose worries. Obviously in an ideal world with no April may calvers his argument would have more weight

Greengrass1

Ill put this out there.
For my 5500 l cow I got 2700e in winter
And 2310e for my spring milk cows
I feed 1t to winter milkers over the yr
And 500/600 to spring ones.
Now the winter one is in for 4 months eating 14kgs of silage costing me 240e in silage 320e in 1t of nuts and 202e in grass for her season adding up to
762e. So I was left with 1940e. After feeding for het milking yr


Now the spring lady eats 5100t in grass over 300 days thats 360e and 150e in meal
I get left 1800e
I was 140e better off but look at all the extra work I put in?

Milked out

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Ill put this out there.
For my 5500 l cow I got 2700e in winter
And 2310e for my spring milk cows
I feed 1t to winter milkers over the yr
And 500/600 to spring ones.
Now the winter one is in for 4 months eating 14kgs of silage costing me 240e in silage 320e in 1t of nuts and 202e in grass for her season adding up to
762e. So I was left with 1940e. After feeding for het milking yr


Now the spring lady eats 5100t in grass over 300 days thats 360e and 150e in meal
I get left 1800e
I was 140e better off but look at all the extra work I put in?

Did your winter and spring cows have different yields?

just do it

GG

Never mind finances, is it not a pain in the 'ole to have no rest period?

Greengrass1

Milked out wrote: »

Did your winter and spring cows have different yields?

I dunno tbh. Doubt it maybe 6000l

Greengrass1

just do it wrote: »

GG

Never mind finances, is it not a pain in the 'ole to have no rest period?

That doesnt bother me too much as im used to it now and it wintermilk has kept us going because money waa so tight here we would never have been able to bank money until recently.
But what really vexs my tits is when sister trys to comment on the winter milk who has a masters in economics
Honestly feel like punching her in the face ha.
She doesn't understand that the costs rise and sure why would you want a break from it either

Milked out

Greengrass1 wrote: »

I dunno tbh. Doubt it maybe 6000l

You'll c with the recordings this winter gg but you mite be surprised I think. The consistency of a winter diet can really give aut girls a start that stands to them as opposed to spring girls going in and out in spring in their early lactation. Also the dry period of a autumn calvers Is cheaper than that of the spring girls, still of course that is also a cheap production period for milking cows too

Greengrass1

Milked out wrote: »

You'll c with the recordings this winter gg but you mite be surprised I think. The consistency of a winter diet can really give aut girls a start that stands to them as opposed to spring girls going in and out in spring in their early lactation. Also the dry period of a autumn calvers Is cheaper than that of the spring girls, still of course that is also a cheap production period for milking cows too

First yr recording so ye that will tell me.
The highest predicted on is supposed to yeild 7200 buy she woukd be one of very few

mahoney_j

Greengrass1 wrote: »

That doesnt bother me too much as im used to it now and it wintermilk has kept us going because money waa so tight here we would never have been able to bank money until recently.
But what really vexs my tits is when sister trys to comment on the winter milk who has a masters in economics
Honestly feel like punching her in the face ha.
She doesn't understand that the costs rise and sure why would you want a break from it either

Milking through winter for cash flow or cause your used to it and it dosnt bother you is no reason to stick at it.youd be way better off financially I reckon by going all spring milk with little meal and loads of grass.whens the last time you took a holiday and I don't mean a day or 2 away??.if your sister has a masters I. Economics she knows a thing or 2 ,has she ever been let look at or comment on the farm accounts I bet she could open your eyes to some things In it you may not of spotted

Timmaay

Milked out wrote: »

Did your winter and spring cows have different yields?

This is more down to management issues but autumn calving cows here for the past two years (which is what I've been milking full time for) consistently give lower yields than spring calvers. An autumn cow would usually give 30l for afew weeks after calving, before dropping off to 20/25l max for the rest of the winter, whereas an equivalent spring calvers would milk up to 40l before much slowly dropping back in yields. The winter diet obviously was the issue, those autumn calvers use to get 6/8kgs of parlour fed nuts, with the rest of the diet grass and then silage from late Oct onwards. This winter I've reduced the number of autumn calvers to 12, 7 of which are carry over heifers, and even these 12 I'm sort of thinking I'm utterly wasting my time with. I've bought in maize also, this is more so to give the late lactation cows a boost, but hopefully it will hugely help the fresh calvers also. My only issue will be having to feed the autumn ladies a high protein nut in the parlour to balance up against the low p in the maize.

joejobrien

alot of these experts (greengrass sister (WITH RESPECT) and a gent in a southern base co op) that I know. Firmly believe they know more than the man who milks the cows! let me explain, This gent has his father milking 100 cows approx on heavy heavy land Very recently after looking at the home operation he suggested that the father milk 150 cows on the holding no bother. the father asked where did this logic come from before answering....................... oh the econmics is based on monitor farms, teagasc and our own cost analyis of the industry. So this increas allows the farmer to maintain his income while allowing extra product in the co op door and sell extra product out to the consumer but all the while maintaining farm incomes!!
The father spoke and told him politly go grow up and told him how the hell was he to able to bulild to 150 cows on a heavy farm, SOME YEARS HE WOULD HAVE TO OFF LOAD SOME COWS and that he should know better as he gave enough of time when he was younger. then the father asked him would he do it .............not a hope , and why ............ well its ah ah ah I dont think it is possible and milk more cowsfor the same!!!!!! SO I ask you this is the industy leading the farmers. O GOOD F..... sweet J.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Greengrass1

mahoney_j wrote: »

Milking through winter for cash flow or cause your used to it and it dosnt bother you is no reason to stick at it.youd be way better off financially I reckon by going all spring milk with little meal and loads of grass.whens the last time you took a holiday and I don't mean a day or 2 away??.if your sister has a masters I. Economics she knows a thing or 2 ,has she ever been let look at or comment on the farm accounts I bet she could open your eyes to some things In it you may not of spotted

Never mj. Either has the parents unfortunately.
My sister now to be fair is deluded. She doesn't understand it costs more to feed winter milkers and the extra work that goes with them
She says we are better off paying loans on machinery becausw we are keeping our profits???????
I said one payment on the machinery would pay a contractor to do that job that yr.
Ye we might make more profit mj but cash flow kept the place a float in the short term.
I am very grateful for the wintermilk because we would be screwed other wise.
It allowed us keep cows that we would have lost other wise aswell keep cash in the place.
We are working though to a more profitable business. If that leads us to all spring so be it. But I won't be changing for a few yrs yet

blackdog1

I'm in winter milk gg and wont be getting out of it soon. Its alot of work but I seem to being doing well out of it. Like everything else it has a lot of advantages and disadvantages but it lets me pay my bills every month and manage my quota better up untill now. Might change in the future but im happy for the moment.

mf240

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Ill put this out there.
For my 5500 l cow I got 2700e in winter
And 2310e for my spring milk cows
I feed 1t to winter milkers over the yr
And 500/600 to spring ones.
Now the winter one is in for 4 months eating 14kgs of silage costing me 240e in silage 320e in 1t of nuts and 202e in grass for her season adding up to
762e. So I was left with 1940e. After feeding for het milking yr


Now the spring lady eats 5100t in grass over 300 days thats 360e and 150e in meal
I get left 1800e
I was 140e better off but look at all the extra work I put in?

You didnt include any silage for the 60 days the spring ones are dry in your calculation.


Would anyone consider going 100% autumn calving on a wet farm?

Greengrass1

mf240 wrote: »

You didnt include any silage for the 60 days the spring ones are dry in your calculation.


Would anyone consider going 100% autumn calving on a wet farm?

I didnt include any dry cow period in my calculation. I waa too lazy to work that out this morn

Milked out

Timmaay wrote: »

This is more down to management issues but autumn calving cows here for the past two years (which is what I've been milking full time for) consistently give lower yields than spring calvers. An autumn cow would usually give 30l for afew weeks after calving, before dropping off to 20/25l max for the rest of the winter, whereas an equivalent spring calvers would milk up to 40l before much slowly dropping back in yields. The winter diet obviously was the issue, those autumn calvers use to get 6/8kgs of parlour fed nuts, with the rest of the diet grass and then silage from late Oct onwards. This winter I've reduced the number of autumn calvers to 12, 7 of which are carry over heifers, and even these 12 I'm sort of thinking I'm utterly wasting my time with. I've bought in maize also, this is more so to give the late lactation cows a boost, but hopefully it will hugely help the fresh calvers also. My only issue will be having to feed the autumn ladies a high protein nut in the parlour to balance up against the low p in the maize.

With the maize you should see a diference I reckon, will maintain condition as well. Keep the diet at 16% I know the p costs a bit but at least it should drop this yr if US crops go as forecast. No matter how much nuts are fed quality forage is key. Found that out to my cost In 12/13

Milked out

I wonder if there was an alternative index linked to ebi which would show a figure for a cow not limited by lactation length which all year round herds could use. I know fert It's still extremely important in terms of both response to feed and ease of management but herds milking all year round can still get the full lactation from the may calvers annoying and all as they are