Frank Sherwin's view of Northern unionists

MakeEmLaugh

Frank Sherwin was independent TD for Dublin North-Central who served between 1957 and 1965. He was quite a hardline republican, as can be seen by his memoirs, Independent and Unrepentant.

In it, he writes "the solution to the northern problem is for the British Army to get out... The Orangemen would not last a week against the northern nationalists supported by southern government. If the Orangemen did fight it would be a good thing in the long run as it would clear the northern area of foreign bigots".

Obviously, Sherwin is advocating a bloody civil war. However, I do think that more people (particularly south of the border) have sympathy for his views that they'd care to admit. I certainly have seen similar sentiments expressed on Boards.ie and similar online discussion forums.

ireland.man

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Frank Sherwin was independent TD for Dublin North-Central who served between 1957 and 1965. He was quite a hardline republican, as can be seen by his memoirs, Independent and Unrepentant.

In it, he writes "the solution to the northern problem is for the British Army to get out... The Orangemen would not last a week against the northern nationalists supported by southern government. If the Orangemen did fight it would be a good thing in the long run as it would clear the northern area of foreign bigots".

Obviously, Sherwin is advocating a bloody civil war. However, I do think that more people (particularly south of the border) have sympathy for his views that they'd care to admit. I certainly have seen similar sentiments expressed on Boards.ie and similar online discussion forums.

Nasty opinions but I've never seen posts on Boards that come close to calling for what basically amounts to ethnic cleansing. Can you link to any posts?

MakeEmLaugh

ireland.man wrote: »

Nasty opinions but I've never seen posts on Boards that come close to calling for what basically amounts to ethnic cleansing. Can you link to any posts?

Can't find any on Boards right now. Here's one from YouTube.

JeffKenna

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Frank Sherwin was independent TD for Dublin North-Central who served between 1957 and 1965. He was quite a hardline republican, as can be seen by his memoirs, Independent and Unrepentant.

In it, he writes "the solution to the northern problem is for the British Army to get out... The Orangemen would not last a week against the northern nationalists supported by southern government. If the Orangemen did fight it would be a good thing in the long run as it would clear the northern area of foreign bigots".

Obviously, Sherwin is advocating a bloody civil war. However, I do think that more people (particularly south of the border) have sympathy for his views that they'd care to admit. I certainly have seen similar sentiments expressed on Boards.ie and similar online discussion forums.

Is that not exactly what the UVF did with the support of the British Army and government. No one I've ever spoken to supports this or would support the same situation happening in reverse.

ireland.man

JeffKenna wrote: »

Is that not exactly what the UVF did with the support of the British Army and government. No one I've ever spoken to supports this or would support the same situation happening in reverse.

Yeah, I can't understand this. I've never met anyone who harbours these kinds of opinions. I've never come across them on Boards, etc. I've lots of years of experience chatting about politics with people south of the border and not once have I heard something even close to this opinion. I say that as a republican too. I can't fathom the thought of northern Protestants feeling there's any kind of number of people down here holding such awful sentiments.

micosoft

Oh the opinions are certainly there. The Unionist community have already been ethnically cleansed from many border areas so it has happened. There is a nasty side to republicanism (as with all militant/nationalist groupings). But mostly heard at a the bar in a couple of usual suspect public houses. People would be smart enough to not say that kind of thing publicly or on boards unless they are 14.

Aside from that I think Sherwin underestimates the northern unionists and their capacity. Don't forget, they had all the heavy/arms manufacturing up north (Shorts and H&W) and had experienced ex British Army troops who had been to real shooting wars. It certainly would not have been short and the war would perhaps have looked very similar to the Ukraine today.

And of course, it was an appalling attitude in itself of a barstool republican "independent" politician.

ireland.man

micosoft wrote: »

Oh the opinions are certainly there. The Unionist community have already been ethnically cleansed from many border areas so it has happened. There is a nasty side to republicanism (as with all militant/nationalist groupings). But mostly heard at a the bar in a couple of usual suspect public houses. People would be smart enough to not say that kind of thing publicly or on boards unless they are 14.

Aside from that I think Sherwin underestimates the northern unionists and their capacity. Don't forget, they had all the heavy/arms manufacturing up north (Shorts and H&W) and had experienced ex British Army troops who had been to real shooting wars. It certainly would not have been short and the war would perhaps have looked very similar to the Ukraine today.

And of course, it was an appalling attitude in itself of a barstool republican "independent" politician.

What pubs??? What posts?? I've been a republican for a very long time and I can't remember anyone saying something as grotesque as this. It's not republicanism. It's not in that ideology to be exclusionary or reactionary. Instead of all these innuendos, can we have some solid quotes and facts that genuine republicans can discuss?

MakeEmLaugh

ireland.man wrote: »

Yeah, I can't understand this. I've never met anyone who harbours these kinds of opinions. I've never come across them on Boards, etc. I've lots of years of experience chatting about politics with people south of the border and not once have I heard something even close to this opinion. I say that as a republican too. I can't fathom the thought of northern Protestants feeling there's any kind of number of people down here holding such awful sentiments.

It isn't just southerners who hold that view. Well-known English historian AJP Taylor advocated a British withdrawal, and thought the IRA should expel Protestants from Northern Ireland in the same way ethnic Germans were expelled from the Sudetenland by the Czechoslovak government after the Second World War.

micosoft wrote: »

And of course, it was an appalling attitude in itself of a barstool republican "independent" politician.

Don't think Frank Sherwin could be called a 'barstool republican', whatever else could be said about him. He was a member of Fianna Éireann and fought in both the War of Independence and the Civil War (against the Treaty, obviously).

He was 64 in 1969 when the Troubles exploded; he was hardly going to join the Provisional IRA then.

getzls

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Frank Sherwin was independent TD for Dublin North-Central who served between 1957 and 1965. He was quite a hardline republican, as can be seen by his memoirs, Independent and Unrepentant.

In it, he writes "the solution to the northern problem is for the British Army to get out... The Orangemen would not last a week against the northern nationalists supported by southern government. If the Orangemen did fight it would be a good thing in the long run as it would clear the northern area of foreign bigots".

Obviously, Sherwin is advocating a bloody civil war. However, I do think that more people (particularly south of the border) have sympathy for his views that they'd care to admit. I certainly have seen similar sentiments expressed on Boards.ie and similar online discussion forums.

I take it Frank Sherwin was a complete fool?

ireland.man

During a debate about women joining the gards he said:

"while recruits should not be actually horse faced, they should not be too good looking. They should be just plain women and not targets for marriage".

I think it isn't worth discussing the man's political opinions as if they're in anyway typical of nationalists on the island.

It's disingenuous to pick characters like this, or cherry pick youtube comments and declare that their extreme views somehow represent a significant group within nationalism or republicanism.

Jesus.

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Frank Sherwin writes "the solution to the northern problem is for the British Army to get out... The Orangemen would not last a week against the northern nationalists supported by southern government. If the Orangemen did fight it would be a good thing in the long run as it would clear the northern area of foreign bigots".

Nothing Dev didn't think himself. He described them as a rock that needed to be blasted out of the way

Karl Stein

micosoft wrote: »

The Unionist community have already been ethnically cleansed from many border areas so it has happened.

When?

Jesus.

Karl Stein wrote: »

When?

Its the most outrageous use of the term "ethnic cleansing" you're likely to hear. The other side aren't immune from over-exaggeration either. Calling the Belfast troubles of 1922 a "pogrom" is just as misleading.

Apparently there's a bridge in Dublin named after this Sherwin bloke

DarkyHughes

micosoft wrote: »

Oh the opinions are certainly there. The Unionist community have already been ethnically cleansed from many border areas so it has happened. There is a nasty side to republicanism (as with all militant/nationalist groupings). But mostly heard at a the bar in a couple of usual suspect public houses. People would be smart enough to not say that kind of thing publicly or on boards unless they are 14.

Aside from that I think Sherwin underestimates the northern unionists and their capacity. Don't forget, they had all the heavy/arms manufacturing up north (Shorts and H&W) and had experienced ex British Army troops who had been to real shooting wars. It certainly would not have been short and the war would perhaps have looked very similar to the Ukraine today.

And of course, it was an appalling attitude in itself of a barstool republican "independent" politician.

Not nearly as many nationalists when the B-Specials & loyalist mobs burned 1000's of Catholics from their homes & burned Bombay St. to the ground in August 69.

But I don't agree with this Sherwin muppet.

DarkyHughes

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

It isn't just southerners who hold that view. Well-known English historian AJP Taylor advocated a British withdrawal, and thought the IRA should expel Protestants from Northern Ireland in the same way ethnic Germans were expelled from the Sudetenland by the Czechoslovak government after the Second World War.



Don't think Frank Sherwin could be called a 'barstool republican', whatever else could be said about him. He was a member of Fianna Éireann and fought in both the War of Independence and the Civil War (against the Treaty, obviously).

He was 64 in 1969 when the Troubles exploded; he was hardly going to join the Provisional IRA then.

You also have to remember the UVF/UPV had started bombing Dublin & other areas in the South before the Provos were even formed so attitudes were probably very hardened against the Unionist community at that time.

The Corinthian

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Obviously, Sherwin is advocating a bloody civil war. However, I do think that more people (particularly south of the border) have sympathy for his views that they'd care to admit. I certainly have seen similar sentiments expressed on Boards.ie and similar online discussion forums.

I don't think I've ever read any post here that openly calls for ethnic cleansing of the unionist community in the North, but there's certainly been no shortage of posts suggesting that the unionist community in the North are essentially interlopers, whom would not be greatly missed if they were somehow to disappear.

Not entirely sure how relevant the views of someone who died almost 35 years ago are to opinions today though.

MakeEmLaugh

Jesus. wrote: »

Nothing Dev didn't think himself. He described them as a rock that needed to be blasted out of the way

In 1921 de Valera explicitly rejected, in a private session of Dáil Éireann, the notion of imposing an all-Ireland Republic on an unwilling Ulster; the minutes of the session dated 22 August 1921 stating '[f]or his part, if the Republic were recognised, he would be in favour of giving each county power to vote itself out of the Republic if it so wished'.

Jesus.

I know that. But reread what I said, particularly the first sentence.

DarkyHughes

The Corinthian wrote: »

I don't think I've ever read any post here that openly calls for ethnic cleansing of the unionist community in the North, but there's certainly been no shortage of posts suggesting that the unionist community in the North are essentially interlopers, whom would not be greatly missed if they were somehow to disappear.

Not entirely sure how relevant the views of someone who died almost 35 years ago are to opinions today though.

I wouldn't like that no. But I would like their communities to be cleansed of the bigotry that is rampant in unionist communities & for them to have a more open mind to people with different beliefs.

Arsemageddon

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I wouldn't like that no. But I would like their communities to be cleansed of the bigotry that is rampant in unionist communities & for them to have a more open mind to people with different beliefs.

Because of course, bigotry is an exclusively unionist phenomenon.

ireland.man

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Because of course, bigotry is an exclusively unionist phenomenon.

"Loyalists linked to 90 per cent of race crime"
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/oct/22/race.ukcrime

"This sentiment has also been expressed by the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC), the PSNI, and the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee which has to date acknowledged the significant synergy that appears to exist between Loyalist paramilitary groups such as the UVF and the UDA, and racist violence which targets ethnic minorities."
http://www.irr.org.uk/news/an-assessment-of-racial-violence-in-northern-ireland/

UVF 'behind racist attacks in south and east Belfast': Loyalist paramilitary group behind attacks says PSNI
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/uvf-behind-racist-attacks-in-south-and-east-belfast-loyalist-paramilitary-group-behind-attacks-says-psni-30153199.html


It's wrong to suggest racism, bigotry and intolerance is only found in one community in the North but loyalism as an ideology contains structures of thinking much more conducive towards intolerance.

Arsemageddon

ireland.man wrote: »

"Loyalists linked to 90 per cent of race crime"
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/oct/22/race.ukcrime

"This sentiment has also been expressed by the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC), the PSNI, and the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee which has to date acknowledged the significant synergy that appears to exist between Loyalist paramilitary groups such as the UVF and the UDA, and racist violence which targets ethnic minorities."
http://www.irr.org.uk/news/an-assessment-of-racial-violence-in-northern-ireland/

UVF 'behind racist attacks in south and east Belfast': Loyalist paramilitary group behind attacks says PSNI
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/uvf-behind-racist-attacks-in-south-and-east-belfast-loyalist-paramilitary-group-behind-attacks-says-psni-30153199.html


It's wrong to suggest racism, bigotry and intolerance is only found in one community in the North but loyalism as an ideology contains structures of thinking much more conducive towards intolerance.

All of the above links refer to racism.

Sectarianism is still rife on both sides in Northern Ireland.

ireland.man

Arsemageddon wrote: »

All of the above links refer to racism.

Sectarianism is still rife on both sides in Northern Ireland.

Somebody mentioned how 'bigotry' was a phenomenon found as much on one side as the other in the North. I replied with stats showing that's not the case and instead most hate-based incidents are found in loyalist communities, especially those with active right-wing paramilitary groups.

And it's asinine to suggest or imply that the massive amounts of hate and attacks directed against disabled people, gays, immigrants and non-white people by loyalists just ends with those minorities but not with loyalist incidents against the 'ancient enemy', Catholics. It would be astounding if loyalism developed more tolerance for Catholics while suddenly directing all its hate towards others! But if that's your argument, can you provide evidence, simple stats showing the equal rates of sectarian incidents on both sides? Anecdotal evidence of course is meaningless on this topic.

Basically, there's no controversy around the argument that loyalist ideology lends itself more to sectarianism and racism than republican ideology. In the past decade there's been far more sectarian crime from loyalism (CAIN stats, PSNI and RUC records, etc, all back this up). I'm hopeful though that a strand of unionism will predominate on this island and will celebrate its culture and language in a inclusive way without retaining the bastion mentality and anti-Catholic, anti-Other mentalities.

Karl Stein

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Sectarianism is still rife on both sides in Northern Ireland.

Sectarianism and union/loyalism are deeply intertwined. Loyalist bands are 100% Protestant and celebrate it. The Orange Order is 100% Protestant and celebrates it.

The above are sectarian institutions/activities by their very nature. There is nothing even approaching an equivalent on the other side so why don't you drop this baseless moral equivocation.

getzls

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I wouldn't like that no. But I would like their communities to be cleansed of the bigotry that is rampant in unionist communities & for them to have a more open mind to people with different beliefs.

Well, let me look at this.

A blanket view of Unionists as all bigoted.
A User Name of an infamous Terrorist.
Hmm!!

Not too hard to see where the bigotry is coming from.

getzls

Karl Stein wrote: »

. Loyalist bands are 100% Protestant

Wrong. And that's the 100% part you need to know.:cool:

ireland.man

getzls wrote: »

Well, let me look at this.

A blanket view of Unionists as all bigoted.
A User Name of an infamous Terrorist.
Hmm!!

Not too hard to see where the bigotry is coming from.

Is this it? Is that your point?

I've posted links to show BIGOTRY is more common in loyalist communities. Any word on that?

Karl Stein

getzls wrote: »

Wrong. And that's the 100% part you need to know.:cool:

Okay then, 100% non-Catholic. :cool::cool::cool:

ireland.man

getzls wrote: »

Wrong. And that's the 100% part you need to know.:cool:

When did someone here say all unionists are bigoted?

Do you agree that most hate crimes, racist attacks, sectarian incidents in the North are carried out by loyalists? Or do you disagree with all the links and the PSNI on that?

getzls

Karl Stein wrote: »

Okay then, 100% non-Catholic. :cool::cool::cool:

Still wrong Karl, i personally know Catholics that are or have been members of those bands,

Karl Stein

getzls wrote: »

Still wrong Karl, i personally know Catholics that are or have been members of those bands,

Outliers, and people of questionable sanity, aside the fact remains that Loyalist marching bands are an inherently sectarian aspect of union/loyalism.

Fact.