Motor Tax in fuel

goz83

It is often mentioned that motor tax should be abolished and that the tax should be added to the fuel, which would make it a fairer system, because you pay as you go. I couldn't find a recent thread on this, so I thought a poll would be interesting. However, a few points to consider, which could be arguments for, or against such a move.

+ For arguments sake, lest say 5c per litre was added. (Maybe that's too low/high, but i'm not going to start calculating average motor spend to current motor tax rates).

* Haulage/transport businesses would be affected by the extra charge. This could be tackled by claiming back some/all the extra tax with fuel receipts.

* Motorists who commute longer distances will spend more on the tax. In my view, that's all part of the package. You drive more, you pay more. It's a lot fairer than someone who pays €710 tax to do under 5k miles a year and someone who does 50k per year pays the same motor tax.

* We pay 70% already on for tax on fuel. And?

* What would we do with all the people working in the motor tax offices? What do they do now that they outsourced driver licensing? I don't see a quick culture change there.


So, what would you vote?

visual

Abolish the tax altogether as its squandered and miss used.

We need to realise taking money out of the economy in taxes doesn't do society any good or create employment.

Voodoomelon

goz83 wrote: »

+ For arguments sake, lest say 5c per litre was added. (Maybe that's too low/high, but i'm not going to start calculating average motor spend to current motor tax rates).

Motorists who commute longer distances will spend more on the tax.

I did a basic calculation before, it needs to be at least 30c a litre added.

People who commute are the biggest opposition to these threads, they feel they pay enough. They're probably right. But that means i'm paying ten times too much.

I'm for by the way.

Atlantic Dawn

It's too complex because it's so simple. Easiest system to ever implement, the less you drive the less you pay, the more damage/use of the road you have the more you pay.

With the price of fuel so low at the moment I fear a big 5-10% rise in the price in the budget.

debabyjesus

Very much in favour of this. I'd imagine the price of a litre would have to rise by a lot more than 5c though.

A compromise to keep the civil servants happy would be a flat rate tax per car of say €100-€200 per annum, the same for every car, you get your tax disc as usual and then the shortfall is added to fuel prices.

I emailed paschal donoghue with questions on the current motor tax collection method and gave the above as one of my suggested changes. Id even prefer to pay it monthly by direct debit but im sure this would need to be policed electronically so would probably require significant investment. Putting it all on fuel was my preferred option. I suggest you all get in touch with the minister if you feel the current system is not working.

The sight of a motor tax renewal sickens me so id love to see it changed.

bazz26

Ah it's been a while since we've had one of these threads. Let the fun begin again.

ba_barabus

I refuse to vote as both choices will loose

Dartz

I drive an Rx-8.

You know my answer.

Atlantic Dawn

Perhaps a tax on rare earth metals used to produce a car should be introduced at initial sale also, some high flying "green" cars are not up to what they preach.

Chris_Heilong

The people that will not like this are the ones that are doing well on the CO2 system or do big Mileage.

Atlantic Dawn

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

The people that will not like this are the ones that are doing well on the CO2 system or do big Mileage.

Yes all those when 2008 hit who spent €30k to save €400 a year, they will break even somewhere around 20 years of ownership.

K.Flyer

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

.....
With the price of fuel so low at the moment I fear a big 5-10% rise in the price in the budget.

You must have you only started watching fuel prices in the last few years or so if you think fuel prices are low..

from The Journel.ie 2012

http://www.thejournal.ie/how-much-have-fuel-prices-risen-in-ireland-recently-and-why-371841-Mar2012/

This snapshot of the average price for a litre of petrol over the past 6 years using data from Pumps.ie shows how the price has jumped significantly in the past six years:
March 2012: 161.9
March 2011: 147.9
March 2010: 127.9
March 2009: 103.9
March 2008: 112.9
March 2007: 103.9
March 2006: 101.9

Atlantic Dawn

K.Flyer wrote: »

You must have you only started watching fuel prices in the last few years or so if you think fuel prices are low..

from The Journel.ie 2012

http://www.thejournal.ie/how-much-have-fuel-prices-risen-in-ireland-recently-and-why-371841-Mar2012/

It was close to €2 mid 2000's.

Bongalongherb

Not good at all for folk like poor ole me .

I now drive locally and sometimes once a month into Dublin city as my car is just used as a run-around, and not used much. I have to pay €404 per year in tax and I hardly drive the thing any-more. It's mostly used for dropping the old folks around.

I for one would most definitely rather have this unjust motor-tax included in petrol/diesel, at least I won't be ripped-off while daily long distance drivers pay the same as I do while my car is hardly driven.

Add this tax to fuel and it would be fair all-around.

ptyloch

Adding it to fuel would eradicate the non-payers brigade.

K.Flyer

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It was close to €2 mid 2000's.

The average price if petrol peaked around the 1.70 mark in late 2012 for a short period of time raising fears that it would reach 2.00 but it never did.

This link to the average fuel prices over the last 10 years shows that todays petrol prices are approximately 50% higher than 10 years ago.

http://www.theaa.ie/AA/Motoring-advice/~/media/Files/AA%20Ireland/Reports/Fuelprices%20history.ashx

Victor

Put the tax in the fuel

Realise that this would mean that more tax income would need to be found as 'grey' exports to the UK would dry up. Collectively, Irish motorists would have to pay more to balance the budget, meaning few motorists would be better off.

visual wrote: »

Abolish the tax altogether as its squandered and miss used.

Reducing the amount of taxes collected wouldn't do a whole lot for us when running the country costs more than current income and then we have to pay debt interest.

We need to realise taking money out of the economy in taxes doesn't do society any good or create employment.

No taxes means no roads. No maintenance, no traffic management, no new bypasses, no emergency services to deal with crashes and no street lighting - so where are you going to park your car?

If we reduced taxes to nil, you would have another 300,000-400,000 people unemployed - the people employed by those taxes and the businesses that the spend money with.

K.Flyer

ptyloch wrote: »

Adding it to fuel would eradicate the non-payers brigade.

If they could get the price point right it be such a simple solution.
If there is fuel in your tank, then your vehicle is taxed, simples.

CiniO

Put the tax in the fuel

Victor wrote: »

No taxes means no roads. No maintenance, no traffic management, no new bypasses, no emergency services to deal with crashes and no street lighting - so where are you going to park your car?

So how do countries which don't charge motor tax can make it? There are roads, traffic management, new bypasses, emergency services and street lighting, and theee is no motor tax.

If we reduced taxes to nil, you would have another 300,000-400,000 people unemployed - the people employed by those taxes and the businesses that the spend money with.

I don't think you mean that motor tax gives employment to 400,000 people?

CiniO

Put the tax in the fuel

Victor wrote: »

No taxes means no roads. No maintenance, no traffic management, no new bypasses, no emergency services to deal with crashes and no street lighting - so where are you going to park your car?

So how do countries which don't charge motor tax can make it? There are roads, traffic management, new bypasses, emergency services and street lighting, and theee is no motor tax.

If we reduced taxes to nil, you would have another 300,000-400,000 people unemployed - the people employed by those taxes and the businesses that the spend money with.

I don't think you mean that motor tax gives employment to 400,000 people?

corktina

Put the tax in the fuel

I suspect if you asked in another forum and phrased the question something like " are you in favour of raising taxes on everything by increasing fuel duty in order to abolish Motor Tax for the benefit of the lucky minority who can run cars" , you'd get a different result.

Dord

In general I think our motor taxation system is a shambles. I'd be interested to see what happens to the tax in the forthcoming budget. With more and more CO2-based taxed vehicles surely the tax intake is going down. I'm sure they'll make some new categories or recategorise the existing ones. I don't know where that will leave those of us with cars taxed based on engine displacement.

Tax on fuel is a possibility, but as mentioned it's too easy. The government likes to do things more complicated and pay consultants.

djimi

corktina wrote: »

I suspect if you asked in another forum and phrased the question something like " are you in favour of raising taxes on everything by increasing fuel duty in order to abolish Motor Tax for the benefit of the lucky minority who can run cars" , you'd get a different result.

Lucky minority? How many households in Ireland do you think dont run at least one car?

djimi

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I did a basic calculation before, it needs to be at least 30c a litre added.

At 30c a litre, my 1.8L (€636 a year to tax) 30mpg car could drive in the region of 14k miles per year for the money I spend on tax.

Change the figures to a 1.4L car (on the old system) doing 50mpg and you get much the same mileage.

So for the most part Id say 30c per litre is probably about right; a little low perhaps even. For the average motorist doing average mileage, at that price point nothing would really change; the only benefit really would be for people who are currently doing small mileage in a large engined car.

Would be nice to be able to afford to have a "weekend" car though and not have to worry about paying a fortune in tax!

goz83

The 5c was just me being very lazy for the hour that was in it

I would guesstimate that I do well under 5k miles a year. So, for me, it would be a big saving, but that's not why I would prefer fuel in tax. I just figure it is right to pay for the usage. It would certainly encourage people to have a weekend car too

Rabbo

Would adding 30c/litre not result in people living nearthe border buying their fuel in the North?

djimi

Rabbo wrote: »

Would adding 30c/litre not result in people living nearthe border buying their fuel in the North?

Yup. Probably the main reason this idea hasnt been seriously considered before I would imagine.

Rabbo

CiniO wrote: »

So how do countries which don't charge motor tax can make it? There are roads, traffic management, new bypasses, emergency services and street lighting, and theee is no motor tax.

I don't think you mean that motor tax gives employment to 400,000 people?

Other countries have different taxation systems. They might have higher income tax rates or they might have denser more centralised populations.

Ireland is a relatively sparsely populated country with significant amount of road for our population. Additionally, as it stands, the current taxation system is not sufficient - the amount taken in taxation does not meet the amount spent on public services. Suggesting removal of a tax does not make sense. It would have to be found elsewhere.

MuppetCheck

I agree it is the best way to do it and would be in favour of it despite the huge additional cost it would mean for me.

But it has to be implemented correctly. I'm thinking of how it can work for all here rather than how I or anyone else could take advantage of a potential new system. It's not as straightforward as people think it is. Sure there would be admin savings, no more signing vehicles off the road but doing this will have truckloads of fuel coming in from the north, more than ever before so there would be a significant cost in monitoring that. It opens up the market to a whole new level of profiteering.

I've noticed the incentive for a lot of people to have this is so that they can run larger engines and have weekend cars. That's a biased view and one of a small percentage of the overall population. What this tax would do in effect is make things cheaper for people who knew what they were getting into buying bigger engined cars and screw everybody else - people who commute to work, people on lower incomes who need a car to survive etc. It's a case of people wanting their cake and eating it.

If it was to be implemented it would have to be a staged thing. Upping the prices of fuel by 30% will have an adverse affect on people ability to go to work/college and create the need for more taxation elsewhere to cover the associated costs with that.

If it was brought it they should also include a mandatory level of insurance so that even if it's a rarely used classic you are still insured while on the road at a 3rd party lever or something.

CiniO

Put the tax in the fuel

Rabbo wrote: »

Other countries have different taxation systems. They might have higher income tax rates or they might have denser more centralised populations.

Ireland is a relatively sparsely populated country with significant amount of road for our population. Additionally, as it stands, the current taxation system is not sufficient - the amount taken in taxation does not meet the amount spent on public services. Suggesting removal of a tax does not make sense. It would have to be found elsewhere.

Well if it would have to be found elsewhere, then let it be. How much income tax would need to be raised to compensate for abandoning of motor tax?
It would be more fair system, if everyone paid for the roads, not only car owners.

BohsCeltic

I'm for it, i only drive about 150km per week and pay €710 motor tax

corktina

Put the tax in the fuel

djimi wrote: »

Lucky minority? How many households in Ireland do you think dont run at least one car?

I'd say a minority in comparison to all the people who don't run a car...the Elderly, the Young, Students, City Dwellers, Benefit recipients, cyclists, etc. Increase the cost of fuel and you increase costs across the board. Is it fair to expect non-motorists to cover the costs of motorists because that's what this proposal would do; shift some of the tax from the motorist to the non-motorist

MuppetCheck

I'm actually doing a quick calc here. There's a job similar-ish to mine advertised for less than 2/3 salary within walking or at least distance of my house.

With what's spent a week on fueling and all else that goes with running a car you will easily make up about 60% of the difference. Plus 20 hours/1200km a week commuting - I'll do it but if the fuel costs were to rise I wouldn't bother.

The nett effect would be
1) I pay no tax on fuel - government loss.
2) Income tax take would be a lot less.
3) I wouldn't be servicing, maintaining, insuring a car meaning a loss to the economy.
4) At a lower income I would be less inclined to pay what I currently do on health insurance etc. I'd go public instead.

And this for the next 35 years or so of my working life. I wouldn't be the only one thinking along those lines I'm sure. That money will have to be made up somewhere else through wallet raping in another area.

djimi

corktina wrote: »

I'd say a minority in comparison to all the people who don't run a car...the Elderly, the Young, Students, City Dwellers, Benefit recipients, cyclists, etc. Increase the cost of fuel and you increase costs across the board. Is it fair to expect non-motorists to cover the costs of motorists because that's what this proposal would do; shift some of the tax from the motorist to the non-motorist

You think the majority of households in Ireland dont run a car? Really?

Whether or not it would be cost effective would depend on things like how it would work out for haulage companies; the cost of delivering goods to supermarkets etc could not significantly increase. If the system is implemented properly, there is no reason to think that most households would not at least break even. Big ask in Ireland perhaps...

vectra

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes all those when 2008 hit who spent €30k to save €400 a year, they will break even somewhere around 20 years of ownership.

The most ridiculous comment that I simply never understand.

Are you saying that people that need new cars every year or so should only buy pre 2008 cars?

Some people actually do need to replace them and not sit like a scrounger waiting on obsolete material.

Get a life. :rolleyes:

JerCotter7

Put the tax in the fuel

I voted no because we all know the government would add a euro to the price of fuel if they were to do it. But luckily for us they will more than likely just increase motor tax and fuel taxes the next budget....

dr.fuzzenstein

Put the tax in the fuel

ptyloch wrote: »

Adding it to fuel would eradicate the non-payers brigade.

Old Merc, chip fat, sorted.

jameshayes

It could never be enforced here and not in the North, it would have to be both.. otherwise you'll have shedloads of people heading north to buy 1000L of petrol at a time to dodge tax

Victor

Put the tax in the fuel

CiniO wrote: »

It would be more fair system, if everyone paid for the roads, not only car owners.

Do pedestrians cause many potholes? Do the need expensive motorways?

dr.fuzzenstein

Put the tax in the fuel

My argument is, don't just unthinkingly wham up tax whenever more money is needed.
It's an extremely idiotic approach, its the equivalent of just bailing out the Titanic. We all know what will happen in the end.
Restructure the debt to save on interest rates, get rid of the useles 20% currently "working" in the civil service, use benchmarking and bring the rest of the salaries in line with the private sector, abandon useless vanity projects, in short streamline the state. I'd start by firing 90% of advisors as they are useless leaches siphoning off money for themselves.

In short, readjust the budget. Just raising taxes is the stupid and lazy way of doing it, maybe that's why it's getting so many votes, the easy, one size fits all solution. Half the people won't even get what I'm on about.

Victor

Put the tax in the fuel

djimi wrote: »

Lucky minority? How many households in Ireland do you think dont run at least one car?

In the 2011 Census, in Dublin City 62% of households had access to a car or van, compared to 90% in Meath. Overall about 82%.

CiniO

Put the tax in the fuel

Victor wrote: »

Do pedestrians cause many potholes? Do the need expensive motorways?

Everyone use the roads - directly or indirectly.

If you own a car and commute to work you use the road. But if you don't own a car but use bus or taxi to go to work, then you use the roads as well.
Even if you don't commute at all, don't walk or cycle and stay home most of the time, you still need to do you shopping, food, etc.. Even if you order it online, courier which is bringing it to you, uses the roads. Postman brining your mail uses the roads. Refuse truck taking your rubbish use the roads. House that you live in, was built from material brought by trucks using the roads..
In general - roads are absolutely necessary for modern civilization to exist. Without them we'd be back to middle ages.
That's why I say that bills for building and upkeeping the roads should be paid by the whole society - not only motorists.

debabyjesus

My main problem with this tax is the way its collected and policed. It's archaic. Bits of paper in the window, only option to pay is 3 6 and 12 months at a time and you get penalised for not being able to pay 12 months at a time.

I'd be delighted if they introduced a monthly direct debit to pay it. No more letters looking for hundreds of euro and a small amount leaving each month.

corktina

Put the tax in the fuel

Victor wrote: »

In the 2011 Census, in Dublin City 62% of households had access to a car or van, compared to 90% in Meath. Overall about 82%.

access to a car and having your own car that you pay the costs of are two different things. Shift the tax to fuel and you shift the costs to everyone including all those who might theroreticaly have access to a car but in fact use the bus or walk everywhere.

Victor

Put the tax in the fuel

CiniO wrote: »

So how do countries which don't charge motor tax can make it?

In Ireland, each person has to fund 25 metres of public road (and more private road). In the UK it is 6 metres.

I don't think you mean that motor tax gives employment to 400,000 people?

The logical extension of the user's comment was getting rid of all taxes.

CiniO wrote: »

Everyone use the roads - directly or indirectly.

And everyone pays for roads, whether directly or indirectly, contrary to your suggestion that it is only car owners. Motor tax doesn't cover the full cost of roads and the portion paid by car owners pays for less.

YbFocus

vectra wrote: »

The most ridiculous comment that I simply never understand.

Are you saying that people that need new cars every year or so should only buy pre 2008 cars?

Some people actually do need to replace them and not sit like a scrounger waiting on obsolete material.

Get a life. :rolleyes:

While his comment merited a response, that was uncalled for. There's many of us here that can't afford a new car.
I wanted a 5 series, should i have gone out and given 50k so that I'm not a scrounger?

dr.fuzzenstein

Put the tax in the fuel

So everyone just unthinkingly votes for yet more taxes. You definitely get no thanks for common sense on this forum. Or maybe people can't follow my argument.
It's the equivalent of your sewer bursting, your house is filling up with crap and you're moving upstairs to solve the problem.
Could there be a third option in this poll that says to get rid of the crap in the household first and then see if we still need more money?
Just putting up taxes on it's own is completely retarded. Some people won't won't be happy till the country is ruined. Or maybe it is a case of expending any amount of mental energy just not to have to think too hard.
I wouldn't lobby my local TD to put up taxes (anyone doing that, sit in the corner with a dunce hat) but to streamline the government, because to me it's largely useless wasters bleeding money from the state.

Voodoomelon

No one is asking for increasing taxes though, it's about spreading the cost of motor tax across the motoring population more fairly, instead of basing it upon how big your engine is, how old the registration is, how much CO2 (why does CO2 even come into it, why not penalise diesels more than petrols?) your exhaust pumps out and other ludicrous measurements.

But I see what you're saying, you'd be naive to believe they wouldn't up the overall intake 20%+. I think the main benefit would be looping in those who avoid it completely.

challengemaster

CiniO wrote: »

Well if it would have to be found elsewhere, then let it be. How much income tax would need to be raised to compensate for abandoning of motor tax?
It would be more fair system, if everyone paid for the roads, not only car owners.

Everyone does pay for the roads. Motor tax income is not specifically dedicated to road related expenses. All income goes into one big pot before being divided up in the budget.

Dartz

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It was close to €2 mid 2000's.

On which planet?

It's dithered between 1.60 and 1.50 for the last year or so.

BailMeOut

Put the tax in the fuel

OP - this cannot be done because of NI. Adding that amount of tax would create such a huge difference in fuel prices between NI and the Republic that would be too attractive for fuel smugglers not to take advantage of it. Example, a 20,000 litre fuel tanker could make an easy €6000 from every cross border trip if motor tax was €0.30 per litre.