Are they demanding too much?

Irish Stones

Don't you think that they demand too much?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/muslims-in-ireland-seek-integration-not-assimilation-1.1917937

I mean, when they get what they ask in this issue, won't they come up with some more demanding requests?
In my opinion, integration means dealing with the lifestyle of the place where you live. How can one integrate into another community if they don't start living the same way and sharing the same moments of aggregation?
No wonder that immiigrants keep on living in closed groups.
It happens the same over here too, but nobody talks about it and no newspaper has an article about this matter.

L.Jenkins

Irish Stones wrote: »

Don't you think that they demand too much?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/muslims-in-ireland-seek-integration-not-assimilation-1.1917937

I mean, when they get what they ask in this issue, won't they come up with some more demanding requests?
In my opinion, integration means dealing with the lifestyle of the place where you live. How can one integrate into another community if they don't start living the same way and sharing the same moments of aggregation?
No wonder that immiigrants keep on living in closed groups.
It happens the same over here too, but nobody talks about it and no newspaper has an article about this matter.

It was said best on the Right Hook on Newstalk, the Irish have become a Liberal PC nation who won't say anything in fear of being called racist.

Buona Fortuna

Muslims in Ireland are not interested in assimilation, according to a new book to be published next Thursday. Titled Islam and Education in Ireland, it is written by Dr Ali Selim of the Islamic Cultural Centre in Dublin’s Clonskeagh who is also a lecturer at Trinity College Dublin and the Mater Dei Institute.

Dr Ali Salem has written a book. That book gives an alarmist view of muslims in Ireland. The book is being publicised on white Irish media. The book will most likely be bought and read by white Irish people.

Dr Ali is just getting his Christmas money in early :eek:

anncoates

It raises conflicting reactions for me.

Personally I find the idea of children (or adults) wearing the burqa distasteful but I don't think it should be banned. Ideally I'd like to see a secular democracy and education system where expression of faith is tolerated. He has a point though whereby you can hardly criticize when the education system here gives such blatant favour to anther religion.

Personally, I'd defend the right of people to practice their fault and have it accommodated t a certain extent but I really would not be happy about interactions with Muslim adults (as outlined in the article) being governed by what are basically sexist principles at the behest of religion.

pickarooney

Up to the point where he starts going on about the intolerant, sexist bull**** inherent in his religion I mostly agree with him. After that, he can **** off.

Caliden

I've no problem with hijabs, it's niqabs that concern me.
Hijabs are no different than old Bridie Guppins wearing a scarf around her head during the winter months.


A full face veil? No thanks.
People change when they have anonymity.


I understand his point about celebrating Catholic holidays and I do think other holidays (Ramadan, Passover) should get a mention even if it's just to educate students on other religions. I know nothing about either.


I think the bit on behaviour with the opposite sex crosses the line though. If they don't want to shake my hand that's fine but I think it's very unreasonable to expect me to follow their rules. If we started doing that, we would have to do it for every religion and that's a non-runner.

Cee-Jay-Cee

I didn't see anything wrong with their concerns till the point where he said he didn't see any problem with talk or preparations for Christmas in schools so long as the talk and songs etc didn't contain anything which may conflict with Muslim beliefs at which point I stopped reading. If they don't believe in Christian faith that's fine, send your children elsewhere. Why should traditions and beliefs be stifled for fear of upsetting or offending a child/person of a different religion especially when that religion is not native to this country!

I would have absolutely no problem in my children hearing and learning about Muslim beliefs and tranditions as it would be educational for them but it seems that the same doesn't work the other way around. The vast majority of Muslims are not irish by descent and chose to come and live here. They should be simply informed that this is the way it is here just like a catholic would have to accept life and traditions/beliefs in a Muslim country and get on with it. If they dont agree then they're free to leave and go elsewhere.

JoeyJJ

Lets have a bland life where were don't celebrate anything ever.

asteroids over berlin

And so if an Irish family move to a muslim country, they should write a book for the laws to be changed, and the muslims will oblige with open arms - my fcuk they will.

Whilst i have little time for any religion, Islam has got to be up there as one of the close minded ones, that exists, i say NO!

Ulysses Gaze

Irish Stones wrote: »

Don't you think that they demand too much?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/muslims-in-ireland-seek-integration-not-assimilation-1.1917937

I mean, when they get what they ask in this issue, won't they come up with some more demanding requests?
In my opinion, integration means dealing with the lifestyle of the place where you live. How can one integrate into another community if they don't start living the same way and sharing the same moments of aggregation?
No wonder that immiigrants keep on living in closed groups.
It happens the same over here too, but nobody talks about it and no newspaper has an article about this matter.

There is a fine line between acquiescing to certain cultural and religious practices and ultimately impinging on the free and democratic nature of the State.

The situation in the UK is a mess at the moment because they have never balanced the two out. What you are seeing there is a simmering resentment from a growing minority of the "indigenous" populous (much as I hate that word).

It was said best on the Right Hook on Newstalk, the Irish have become a Liberal PC nation who won't say anything in fear of being called racist.

Which, in the UK, led to incidents like Rotherham.

There is nothing wrong with having open, healthy debate.

smash

However, school uniforms can present a problem for Muslim students, he says. Some “cause discomfort, while others are exclusivist and divisive. Some school uniforms have the crucifix symbol and others have religious images such as saints.” It means “people of other faiths find their children in a difficult situation.”
He continues: “school is a public place, where no one has the right to dictate or impose their views or beliefs on another.””

Then you shouldn't wear a hijab, now should you....

osarusan

smash wrote: »

Then you shouldn't wear a hijab, now should you....

Wearing one isn't imposing views on anybody.

Saying you can't wear one is though.

biko

I see similar things in Sweden where for instance certain school activities have been moved from churches as to not offend muslims (and note that it's the Swedish left that makes these demands, not muslims themselves).

It seems to me than integration of active muslims is more difficult that people of other beliefs. And Singapore leader Lee Kuan Yew agrees: “I would say today, we can integrate all religions and races except Islam.” He also said: “I think the Muslims socially do not cause any trouble, but they are distinct and separate.”
And herein lies the crux: strict Muslims do not want to partake in regular society but seems to want to lead a separate existence, in parallel with regular society - and the article in my view conforms this.

smash

osarusan wrote: »

Wearing one isn't imposing views on anybody.

Yes it is. It is a religious statement in itself!

Gatling

So how will it work in a classs where a teacher says boys and girls are equals and a Muslim child tells mammy and daddy who in turn take offence to the idea and start complaining that there religious beliefs are been offended ,

Now on the other side of the arguement would irish non muslims be given the same response to been in a predominantly muslim school's

Irish Stones

I have to admit that I'm glad to read so many replies all oriented the same direction.
Here in Italy we had some cases of people from other countries who asked to remove all crucifixes from the schoolrooms walls because they were interfering with the education they were giving to their own children.
In all cases the request were rejected, but this is an evidence of how minorities in a country with different culture, religion, faith and customs might have an imposing power to the extent to generate a debate at political level.

In the case of the Muslims I think that the host country lives in a subjection condition for the fear that radicalists of this religion might act improperly.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

smash wrote: »

Then you shouldn't wear a hijab, now should you....

I'm assuming he doesn't.

always find it a bit hypocritical to want religion taken out of the classroom but to complain when that means things like Christmas and Easter preperations.

seamus

smash wrote: »

Yes it is. It is a religious statement in itself!

Making a religious statement is not imposing your beliefs on anyone else.

His point, which is correct, is that having school uniforms which include religious iconography puts people of other (or no) faiths in an uncomfortable position. It would be like having a Turban as part of a school uniform and requiring all children to wear one, properly wrapped.

I'm still trying to figure out what Dr. Selim's angle is. Whether he's a troll looking for more airtime or he's a genuine islamic fascist.

This is the second article now where there's sense for the first five lines, but then he goes on to talk about basically imposing sharia law in schools and on the streets.

Dravokivich

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I didn't see anything wrong with their concerns till the point where he said he didn't see any problem with talk or preparations for Christmas in schools so long as the talk and songs etc didn't contain anything which may conflict with Muslim beliefs at which point I stopped reading. If they don't believe in Christian faith that's fine, send your children elsewhere. Why should traditions and beliefs be stifled for fear of upsetij ing or offending a child/person of a diffetent religion especially when that religion is not native to this country!

I would have absolutely no problem in my children hearing and leArning about Muslim beliefs and traditions as it would be educational for them but it seems that the same doesn't work the other way around. The vast majority of Muslims are not irish by descent and chose to come and live here. They should be simply informed that this is the way it is here just like a catholic would have to acceot life age traditions/beliefs in a Muslim country and get on with it. If they do t agree then they're free to leave and go elsewhere.

When most schools are Christian based, it's very hard to send your kid somewhere else. I'd be more into removing religious lifestyle choices from public education. He puts forward a good point on it, but I feel for the wrong reason.

Irish Stones wrote: »

I have to admit that I'm glad to read so many replies all oriented the same direction.
Here in Italy we had some cases of people from other countries who asked to remove all crucifixes from the schoolrooms walls because they were interfering with the education they were giving to their own children.
In all cases the request were rejected, but this is an evidence of how minorities in a country with different culture, religion, faith and customs might have an imposing power to the extent to generate a debate at political level.

In the case of the Muslims I think that the host country lives in a subjection condition for the fear that radicalists of this religion might act improperly.

What about the locals themselves, not the imports? The state is supposed to have an obligation to us overall in reference to human rights. Not just impose the popular consensus upon us.

Jester252

I would argue that Christmas is more of a culture holiday than a religious holiday

Ulysses Gaze

Irish Stones wrote: »

I have to admit that I'm glad to read so many replies all oriented the same direction.
Here in Italy we had some cases of people from other countries who asked to remove all crucifixes from the schoolrooms walls because they were interfering with the education they were giving to their own children.
In all cases the request were rejected, but this is an evidence of how minorities in a country with different culture, religion, faith and customs might have an imposing power to the extent to generate a debate at political level.

In the case of the Muslims I think that the host country lives in a subjection condition for the fear that radicalists of this religion might act improperly.

I would disagree with this point. I think a previous poster hit the nail on the head. It's usually the radical, progressive Left that enables this behaviour. Sweden was the example they used.

I hate bringing it back up, but Rotherham was a Labour run council and the Social Services were made up of those with a progressive Leftish leaning.

Ush1

I love when an individual comes out and claims to speak for a religion and if anything said is bad(for instance the Westboro Baptist church), they are extremists, fringe, don't speak for all of that religion etc...

But when it's good or somewhat thought provoking, the individual is suddenly the chosen authority on their religion.

conorhal

That article leaves out his much more expansive list of demands that were in yesterday paper:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/socia...iefs-1.1915810

Dr Selim wants:

Islamic Holidays to be marked and celebrated
Special days off for Muslim children
Schools to actively participate in Ramadan by raising funds for "the needy"
A ban on raffles as a method of fund raising as they are "strictly forbidden" in Islam
"Crucial" changes to Relationships and Sexuality Education curriculum to exclude reference to or attempted normalization of pre-marital relationships
Exemptions and radical change to PE to ensure female only teachers and a ban on male staff accessing areas where girls might be taking lessons
All music to exclude any instruments that makes a note ("tunable instruments")
School Plays to forbid any physical contact between boys and girls and a ban on gender role reversals.


There are just too few cultural touchpoints in common to integrate muslim immigrants into western societies, so to avoid the kind of balkanization of society that we see across the water, immigration from Islamic states shoud be restricted and Dr. Selim needs to be told in no uncertian terms to piss off.

The Pole's arrived here and for the most part have integrated quite well, so have most other immigrant communities:

All we get from these shysters however are demands to reorganize our society to accomodate their exclusion from it, accomodated by breathtaking cultural cowardice of our craven politicians who won't have a word to say on the matter. I'll certiantly not be holding my breath for a statement from Jan O' Sullivan telling him where he can shove his book.

smash

seamus wrote: »

His point, which is correct, is that having school uniforms which include religious iconography puts people of other (or no) faiths in an uncomfortable position. It would be like having a Turban as part of a school uniform and requiring all children to wear one, properly wrapped.

Then don't send your Muslim children to a Catholic school. That's trolling of the highest order! Get them in to the school, and then try and make the school change it's ways to suit you? Feck off...

Dravokivich

Jester252 wrote: »

I would argue that Christmas is more of a culture holiday than a religious holiday

It would have been associated with festivals to celebrate the coming of a new year.

As Easter would have been associated with spring.

Dravokivich

smash wrote: »

Then don't send your Muslim children to a Catholic school. That's trolling of the highest order! Get them in to the school, and then try and make the school change it's ways to suit you? Feck off...

The issue isn't just of Muslims going to Catholic schools. More often than not the only choice is a Catholic school, or uproot to where there's the few that aren't.

osarusan

smash wrote: »

Yes it is. It is a religious statement in itself!

It may be a religious statement, but it isn't an imposition, unless you think that any display of relgious clothes/accessories is an imposition.

If a teacher wears a crucifix necklace/pendant, is that an imposition?

bogmanfan

When Islamic countries allow westerners to drink and wear swimsuits in public, then we can allow them to wear their niqabs over here

Ulysses Gaze

smash wrote: »

Then don't send your Muslim children to a Catholic school. That's trolling of the highest order! Get them in to the school, and then try and make the school change it's ways to suit you? Feck off...

Interesting that you mention this.

In the UK, more and more Muslims are sending their children to Catholic schools because the standard of education is generally considered to be better.

Here is a good example - note there is integration here as pupils attend Catholic assemblies in the Morning. Also quote from the article:

‘Our school is largely made up of Muslim children whose parents are happy to have them attend a Christian school. For the church, this is a new reality.
‘At school, the pupils hear about the teachings of Jesus but they are not imposed on them.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2174050/The-Catholic-primary-school-90-cent-pupils-Muslim.html

smash

Dravokivich wrote: »

The issue isn't just of Muslims going to Catholic schools. More often than not the only choice is a Catholic school, or uproot to where there's the few that aren't.

That's a completely separate issue though. Non dom or multi dom schools are popping up more regularly these days. There are of course issues that they generally don't have an associates secondary school but if there's no other option than a catholic junior school, then suck it up and let your kids have their own beliefs, but don't try and make a whole catholic school change it's beliefs or teaching just because you can't find an alternative. Next thing they'll be requesting schools to change their names because St. Bridgets or whoever, is 'Offensive'.

osarusan wrote: »

It may be a religious statement, but it isn't an imposition, unless you think that any display of relgious clothes/accessories is an imposition.

If a female teacher wears a crucifix necklace, is that an imposition?

In a catholic school? No it's not.

seamus

smash wrote: »

Then don't send your Muslim children to a Catholic school.

That's not a feasible option for a large majority. 90% of the schools in this country are run by the Catholic church and funded by the State, despite freedom of religion being a fundamental part of our constitution.

90% of Irish people aren't Catholic, yet have to endure Catholicism being imposed on their children because they have no other choice for schooling.