Is attractiveness objective or subjective?

Remmy

Just something I was thinking of when browsing through a different thread. I think as a Man I can make an honest appraisal of my own attractiveness and also how attractive members of the opposite sex are.

Where does preferences play into this then? For example someone might find someone of a different ethnicity or darker features more attractive than someone who might be touted as more "conventionally attractive". When I say conventionally attractive I'll use Rosanna Davison for example. She won Miss World, is obviously very good looking, and she represents what it is to be beautiful to a lot of people.

So what is attraction? Is it simply great facial symmetry? Why do people from foreign countries sometimes have more of a "wow factor" attraction wise? Is it just because it is slightly different to the norm and thus more interesting?

Interested to here different peoples thoughts on this.

berrygood

I think it's very much subjective. It wouldn't even be just about their face for me. I think the way they carry themselves and whatever particular vibe they might be giving off. The whole external package, I suppose.

Objectively, I can see that Brad Pitt is an attractive man. Subjectively, he's about as appealing as a dead rat.

The woman you referenced is attractive but in a very boring way, I think. There is nothing coming off her that would (if I were a man or lesbian) sit up and make me pay attention.

karaokeman

It is subjective, there are those who the masses consider attractive (some I would agree on, Katy Perry, 90s Courtney Cox etc. and others not so much) and then there are others I find attractive, but most people would disagree, lets say Eliza Doolittle, I think she's gorgeous but many disagree and they are entitled to.

And yes, different people have their own preferences. There are countless facial features, body builds, hairstyles, skin colors, and more to choose from that set different women apart.

There is no objective taste, no more than there is with music. Its a free world, enjoy it while you can.

Golovkin p4p best

I'd say about 60 percent is objective and 40 percent subjective. So many features and characteristics are near universally attractive. Smooth skin on women for examplexample is more attractive to to the vast majority of men compared to acne scarred skin. so I'd day there is a strong base that is quasi universal and on top of that the subjective attraction comes in.

Pat Mustard

People's appearance can be measured objectively. How people perceive appearance is subjective.

For instance, the symmetry of a face can be measured. The proportions of a body can be measured. These measurements are objective. The measurements are the measurements, whether or not people choose to believe that they are correct or important.

The perceived importance of those measurements is subjective.

It can be said that there are certain measurements which are visually appealing to large numbers of people. For example it is often considered that there is an ideal waist-hip ratio (WHR); being 0.7 for women and 0.9 for men. These measurements correlate with health and fertility.

The measurements are objective. The perception of attractiveness is subjective.

Wibbs

Mostly subjective to the individual, but mostly objective to the whole. Certain aspects of attraction are pretty consistent across time and culture. In both genders(though attractiveness in women is slightly ahead in cultural triggers).

Fate Amenable To Change

I've been consistently surprised by
1) the girls that are attracted to me
2) the girls that are not attracted to me

there is very little logic in the whole thing
I'd consider someone to good looking from a general point of view if a large majoirty consider that person to be attractive
Some people may for example only discover 10% of people find them attractive but 1% of that percentage could be supermodels for example. I'd say that person is unattractive but it doesn't stop them from being attractive to those supermodels. Bit that guy could want a very average looking person who is not interested in them.

From a guys point of view you could increase your attractiveness by toning up and putting on muscle but you could go the other way and put on too much, some girls also like to have their guy very lean, others to look like a bodybuilder.

Oddly enough because of the subjective nature of attraction you could have a seriously toned body and be clean shaven but the girl your attracted to could find you unnattractive because she likes thin guys with beards.

I'm generally attracted to girls in general but I go through phases where I'm attracted to some more than others ie.girls with curly red hair and so on.

For example I could never see Anna Kendrick or Rachel McAdams winning Miss World but I'd consider them to be the two most attractive women on the planet right now.

FunLover18

There is definitely a common perception of attractiveness but even at that it's completely subjective how strong that attraction is. For example Eva Mendes is someone I don't find particularly appealing even though a lot of the guys I know seem to have her in their top ten. On that note I think there's also a peer pressure thing, more so among teens where you have to find certain girls attractive or there's something wrong with you, not that your friends would actually say that but there's the desire to fit in. I wasn't a victim of this myself but I always thought I saw it in others although it could just be me justifying why I had different tastes to everyone else.

Personally there are also different categories of attractiveness. I've tried explaining this to others and they look at me as though I've just tried to explain quamtum physics. So for example, I don't find Emma Stone particularly attractive to look at. If I saw her on a street and had no idea who she was I probably wouldn't look twice, but I find her extremely sexy, I think it's a combination of her voice and personality, but then it's not really a sexual attraction either although 'sexy' is definitely the word I'd use. Emma Stone is the kinda gal who makes me go "Aaayyy" Fonz style. I'd also agree with the Fate Amenable To Change about Kendrick and McAdams; they're not playboy cover hot but they're still beautiful to look at, and they're the kind of girls you could take home to mom. Then there's your Miss World and your playboy cover where it's just pure lust.

Colonel Panic

Can't it be both? I can objectively identify someone as attractive, but not be personally attracted to them.

strobe

Colonel Panic wrote: »

Can't it be both? I can objectively identify someone as attractive, but not be personally attracted to them.

Absolutely I think. I think this is where the term 'sexy' comes into play for me. I mean I think Beyonce Knowles is very good looking . I'd go so far as to say I think she's beautiful. But I'm not in the slightest attracted to her, I don't think she's sexy at all. I think she's beautiful like I think leopards are beautiful, or like I think a Salen S7 (a sports car) is good looking.

Clearly a huge amount of people disagree with me there.

So I think she's objectively attractive, and even if she wasn't famous and just some girl I saw walking down the street I'd be 100% certain on seeing her that most guys would probably want to ride her. But I would not. So she's subjectively not sexy to me.

Any of this making any kind of sense whatsoever?

Shakespeare's Sister

I agree with Strobe.

Beauty can be objective or subjective.

Attractiveness is subjective.

Hardly anyone is ugly - most people are average-looking - but beauty is not always in the eye of the beholder. Attractiveness (whether someone is attractive to another person/people) is though.

Call Me Jimmy

I believe there are objective indicators, and mostly will point to good biological (and imo neurological) health. Psychology comes along and throws all that out the window. So the answer is no.

Physical attractiveness

If two people's memory's were completely removed and you could do a study of who they find the most attractive I am sure they would tend towards what could be called an objective positive aesthetic.

Allowing that philosophically objectivity is subjective, I will say YES to the question

_Whimsical_

The Mustard wrote: »

People's appearance can be measured objectively. How people perceive appearance is subjective.

For instance, the symmetry of a face can be measured. The proportions of a body can be measured. These measurements are objective. The measurements are the measurements, whether or not people choose to believe that they are correct or important.

The perceived importance of those measurements is subjective.

It can be said that there are certain measurements which are visually appealing to large numbers of people. For example it is often considered that there is an ideal waist-hip ratio (WHR); being 0.7 for women and 0.9 for men. These measurements correlate with health and fertility.

The measurements are objective. The perception of attractiveness is subjective.

There are also culturals variations in the way people view what's desirable too and those don't always conform to the evolutionary model of vital,healthy and fertile women being the most attractive to men. Examples range from parts of Africa where overweight women are prized as the ultimate femme fatal,probably because excess weight correlates with wealth there, to western culture where very skinny women have been considered the pinacle of beauty. The example of Courtney Cox and Jennifer Aniston during their time in Friends comes to mind.Both were "dream girls" for large swathes of the western world and so should've been examples of fertile youth and wellbeing. Both of these women have since admitted that they were so thin during their time on the show that their periods had stopped and Courtney Cox was told by Drs she may have permanently damaged her fertility and was advised to urgently gain weight in hope of ever conceiving. When she was a healthy weight she did get pregnant.

Really though attractive and beautiful should not be synonyms at all. What is beautiful or aesthetically pleasing is easily recognisable by most. What is attractive is influenced by so many personal,cultural and social factors that it really cannot be defined.Proof of that can be found on any street in the world really where you realise people of every variety of aesthetic charm find love.

Remmy

Some very interesting replies here thanks for that guys. I'd go along with the statement that beauty is objective but attractiveness can be more subjective. What I'd find interesting in is what things shape the subjectivity of attractiveness? Is it a conditioned thing i.e someone from Africa grows up hearing that someone with a high bmi is attractive and so that seeps into their subconscious likewise with the Courtney cox friends example?

I heard it mentioned on boards before that some Irish people have more of a preference for women who are more "curvy" than average(I'm assuming compared to the UK and the rest of Europe). Anyone have any examples or anecdotes of this? I find this whole discussion quite any interesting subject tbh

paddy1990

Attractiveness is definitely subjective. And looks don't matter at all. There are no "leagues". I see no reason why these guys can't get hot girlfriends in their early 20s











It's all about personality and how you come across and carry yourself.

I know plenty of women who find guys like Brad Pitt, Henry Cavill, Channing Tatum, Tyson Beckford and Chris Hemsworth to be not attractive at all.

It's all subjective. I know a guy in his 40s who gets lots of hot young girls all the time.

beks101

paddy1990 wrote: »

blah blah blah

Hey, you forgot to mention the part about you being an absolute ride and women magnet of epic proportions.

paddy1990

beks101 wrote: »

Hey, you forgot to mention the part about you being an absolute ride and women magnet of epic proportions.

you just love me don't you?

fancy a date beksy?

we can go for cocktails...

wednesday or thursday suits me??

beks101

paddy1990 wrote: »

you just love me don't you?

fancy a date beksy?

we can go for cocktails...

wednesday or thursday suits me??

Sorry, I'll be busy washing my hair all next week.

paddy1990

beks101 wrote: »

Sorry, I'll be busy washing my hair all next week.

What about the week after that?

I can send you some modelling shots in the meantime if you'd like??

Remmy

paddy1990 wrote: »

What about the week after that?

I can send you some modelling shots in the meantime if you'd like??

Ferrari and blue steel poses for me so

Pat Mustard

paddy1990

berrygood wrote: »

Rosanna Davison is attractive but in a very boring way, I think.

I'm sure a lot of men would reject her for being too boring looking

_Whimsical_

Remmy wrote: »

Some very interesting replies here thanks for that guys. I'd go along with the statement that beauty is objective but attractiveness can be more subjective. What I'd find interesting in is what things shape the subjectivity of attractiveness? Is it a conditioned thing i.e someone from Africa grows up hearing that someone with a high bmi is attractive and so that seeps into their subconscious likewise with the Courtney cox friends example?

I heard it mentioned on boards before that some Irish people have more of a preference for women who are more "curvy" than average(I'm assuming compared to the UK and the rest of Europe). Anyone have any examples or anecdotes of this? I find this whole discussion quite any interesting subject tbh

I suppose statistically speaking the average woman in Ireland is on the "curvy" side. The average man is going to end up with the average woman, so it mightn't be so much a clear cut case of absolute preference as just the choice that's offered.
That said a lot of Irish men like partners they can have a laugh with,someone to get a take away with,have a few drinks with etc. The Rosanna's of this world with their strict vegan diet,sober lifestyle, at the gym at 6am types wouldn't be the easy going,fun types perhaps? The couple of extra pounds might signify someone relaxed,up for some fun and who won't be putting the clappers on the average Irish man's lifestyle.

I suppose there's some social conditioning as well there. We are all from the land of mammies who want us all to eat up and who fret over skinny children. I think we generally perceive people who aren't really thin as healthier, both physically and mentally.

The Strawman Argument

It's definitely down to way more than pure aesthetics, but you can read a fair bit from a person's general aura coupled with some basic facts about them.

Rosanna Davison, between her background, what she became famous for and what she's done since, there's basically no hint of her being remotely interesting. There's nothing about her physically that gives away any kind of particularly strong signs of a personality too. Coupled together, you've got a tremendously boring individual. Cannot imagine Rosanna Davison ever managing to be anything close to sexy.

Brad Pitt seems fairly guarded overall, he's obviously a good looking man and all, has done a fair bit of interesting stuff but I can't even imagine what his personality is like. People tend to forget he's in a fair few good films, like and it's gotta be to do with how his typically attractive face stops him from leaving any kind of real mark unless he's stinking the place up. He's usually been a bit awkward in more romantic roles from what I can recall too so he comes across a bit asexual too. Tom Cruise has a similar kind of thing going on but he's more openly nutty.
Contrasted to someone like Fassbender who can just be so relentlessly intense in his performances and it all tends to fit his face and demeanour, the guy just oozed charisma even back in those Guinness ads.



....and I was building up into some big point about Jennifer Lawrence that I just forgot

EdenHazard

The Strawman Argument wrote: »

It's definitely down to way more than pure aesthetics, but you can read a fair bit from a person's general aura coupled with some basic facts about them.

Rosanna Davison, between her background, what she became famous for and what she's done since, there's basically no hint of her being remotely interesting. There's nothing about her physically that gives away any kind of particularly strong signs of a personality too. Coupled together, you've got a tremendously boring individual. Cannot imagine Rosanna Davison ever managing to be anything close to sexy.

Brad Pitt seems fairly guarded overall, he's obviously a good looking man and all, has done a fair bit of interesting stuff but I can't even imagine what his personality is like. People tend to forget he's in a fair few good films, like and it's gotta be to do with how his typically attractive face stops him from leaving any kind of real mark unless he's stinking the place up. He's usually been a bit awkward in more romantic roles from what I can recall too so he comes across a bit asexual too. Tom Cruise has a similar kind of thing going on but he's more openly nutty.
Contrasted to someone like Fassbender who can just be so relentlessly intense in his performances and it all tends to fit his face and demeanour, the guy just oozed charisma even back in those Guinness ads.



....and I was building up into some big point about Jennifer Lawrence that I just forgot

Your comparison between Fassbender and Pitt is completely irrelevant and you are just using an Irish bias. TBH Pitt seems like a cooler guy than Fessbender to me.

The Strawman Argument

My Irish bias swings the other way entirely, and Pitt was instrumental in funding the Tree of Life which makes me like him more than most actors alone. I like the guy a lot, prolly more than Fassbender, but the kind of characters he's particularly good at never seem to be that have that kind of intensity

...and damn near everything he does seems to be pursuing a particular image of some kind of saintly type figure, I don't wanna be f*cking Christ!

ongarboy

paddy1990 wrote: »

What about the week after that?

I can send you some modelling shots in the meantime if you'd like??

I've no doubt that you are probably very good looking but I don't think I've ever come across an individual (online or otherwise) that constantly feels the need to drop it into nearly every post about how good looking they are. Is that really the only way you can validate yourself? It comes across as quite a hollow self endorsement, moreso the more it's repeated.

I know plenty of very good looking people. My 2 sisters are models and a lot of their friends (male and female) also work in the industry and I socialise with them fairly frequently and I've never come across the vanity that you project or the need for others to fancy you to feel worthy. It reeks of insecurity. The peculiarity of your posts and efforts you go to validate yourself (creating fake dating profiles across the world to measure how many people fancy you) have raised questions in other threads about what sort of individual you are. If you can only like yourself because of what you see in the mirror, it makes for a pretty poor self appraisal.

No doubt we'll see many more posts from you alluding to your visual appearance.

Bafucin

What was beauty in the 1800's was different from what is beauty now.

In some cultures stretching ear lobes or inserting plates into lips makes women beautiful.





How important looks are perhaps does not change but what is beauty certainly does.

And individual people have their types too.

Fox_In_Socks

^ Wagon wheel...I think there's a song.:)

I think you can have both. You can meet someone who is classically good looking with symetrical face and slim and toned etc, but who you recognise as being good looking but not that attracted to?

Pat Mustard

Fox_In_Socks wrote: »

^ Wagon wheel...I think there's a song.:)

Wheels are made for rollin'

EDIT: not entirely sure this is exactly on topic actually

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El9eCRisbDo

blacklilly

ongarboy wrote: »

I've no doubt that you are probably very good looking but I don't think I've ever come across an individual (online or otherwise) that constantly feels the need to drop it into nearly every post about how good looking they are. Is that really the only way you can validate yourself? It comes across as quite a hollow self endorsement, moreso the more it's repeated.

I know plenty of very good looking people. My 2 sisters are models and a lot of their friends (male and female) also work in the industry and I socialise with them fairly frequently and I've never come across the vanity that you project or the need for others to fancy you to feel worthy. It reeks of insecurity. The peculiarity of your posts and efforts you go to validate yourself (creating fake dating profiles across the world to measure how many people fancy you) have raised questions in other threads about what sort of individual you are. If you can only like yourself because of what you see in the mirror, it makes for a pretty poor self appraisal.

No doubt we'll see many more posts from you alluding to your visual appearance.

Here here











I'm a ride too but don't feel the need to tell everyone on here........ok so maybe this once:pac:

Bafucin

blacklilly wrote: »

I'm a ride too but don't feel the need to tell everyone on here........ok so maybe this once:pac:

Good for you!