Asylum seekers to receive 3rd level grants

RobYourBuilder · 02-09-2014 4:10pm #1

THE NEW EDUCATION Minister, Jan O’Sullivan, intends on ensuring that asylum seekers will be able to apply for third-level grants.

Currently, asylum-seeking students wishing to go on to third-level are treated as international students.

This means they face higher fees, which tends to be prohibitive when it comes to furthering their education.

Should they not gain residency first? They are charged non EU fees, well, because they are non EU citizens.

Aodhan O Ríordáin will be leading the government’s review of the issues facing people in direct provision, and Minister O’Sullivan will be working closely with him to make sure that asylum seekers, and particularly those who have been in Ireland for a number of years, are no longer prevented from accessing third level by the charging of non-EU fees.

O'Ríordáin was part of the Labour government that promised no hike in fees. 3k.

Yet he's pushing this?

In an interview with the Sunday Times today, the Minister said that she intends on changing the Student Support Act 2011 to bring about the change.

It would mean asylum seekers who are school leavers would have the same rights as their classmates when it comes to grants.

What will happen if their asylum claim is refused? Shall they continue to study on the taxpayers dime? Why would anyone from a developing country pay non EU fees? Just claim asylum and let Paddy pay for your studies.

Thoughts?

Pro Hoc Vice · 02-09-2014 4:12pm

http://www.politics.ie/forum/education-science/229571-asylum-seekers-qualify-third-level-student-grants.html

Is that you?

Nemeses · 02-09-2014 4:13pm

Copy / Paste job...

Gatling · 02-09-2014 4:13pm

It shouldn't be allowed to happen

ScumLord · 02-09-2014 4:15pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Thoughts?

If they're going to stay here I don't see why they shouldn't get a good education. Otherwise we could end up with ghettos of foreign people that never integrate.

P_1 · 02-09-2014 4:16pm

It's a waste having people festering away in camps to be honest. Why shouldn't they be given the opportunity to improve their lot in life?

catallus · 02-09-2014 4:18pm

There are lots of these people cooped up like caged lions in internment camps (refugee centres) here. A lot of them are going nuts because they have nothing to do because they are allowed do nothing.

Education for all.

02-09-2014 4:20pm

catallus wrote: »

There are lots of these people cooped up like caged lions in internment camps (refugee centres) here. A lot of them are going nuts because they have nothing to do because they are allowed do nothing.

Education for all.

would allowing them to work not help

catallus · 02-09-2014 4:25pm

bluewolf wrote: »

would allowing them to work not help

The main reason they are here is because the elites promote the mass movement of uneducated people across national borders so that corporations have a steady flow of menial workers (wage slaves).

These poor people in refugee camps are the over-flow of this disgusting policy.

This society should be hanging its head in shame at the way we treat human beings who happen to less fortunate than the vast majority of ourselves. The least we can do is decriminilise their opportunity to better themselves through education.

Nodin · 02-09-2014 4:27pm

catallus wrote: »

The main reason they are here is because the elites promote the mass movement of uneducated people across national borders so that corporations have a steady flow of menial workers (wage slaves)..

That's (supposedly) the reason for free movement in the EU, not asylum seekers.

Gatling · 02-09-2014 4:30pm

At this stage might as well the whole hog and issue them irish passports ,

Imagine the several thousand illegal migrants flooding Italy decide let's head to Ireland, now free college education for all

It sounds alarmist but it only encourages the system to be abused

catallus · 02-09-2014 4:30pm

A conservative estimate would be 5 people dying daily flinging themselves against the barriers of Fortress Europe.

http://www.unhcr.org/4f2803949.html

wazky · 02-09-2014 4:39pm

A foreign national gets a full grant (around 8k I think?) yet some Irish students dont get a penny, even though their parents have paid taxes etc for years and they themselves may have paid taxes if they worked. I know of some people that wanted to go to college and got offered their course but did not get a grant which meant they couldn't go to college, nearly all ended up on the dole and ended up costing the government money anyway but this time for doing nothing.

wendell borton · 02-09-2014 4:43pm

The asylum system is an utter shambles. There should be a set amount let in every year based on criterion on well they can integrate into and benefit this country. Applicants should only come from recognised groups in real danger and discrimination such as minority Iraqis.
This way proper facilities can be provided as well as training and education budgeted for.

Probably a bit mean but realistically as a small country we cant save the world.

RobYourBuilder · 02-09-2014 4:45pm

ScumLord wrote: »

If they're going to stay here I don't see why they shouldn't get a good education. Otherwise we could end up with ghettos of foreign people that never integrate.

What happens when their asylum claim gets rejected?

Chance The Fapper · 02-09-2014 4:48pm

wazky wrote: »

A foreign national gets a full grant (around 8k I think?) yet some Irish students dont get a penny, even though their parents have paid taxes etc for years and they themselves may have paid taxes if they worked. I know of some people that wanted to go to college and got offered their course but did not get a grant which meant they couldn't go to college, nearly all ended up on the dole and ended up costing the government money anyway but this time for doing nothing.

Irish students get the course paid for, generally 5-7 grand, but have to pay a student levy of 3000

Nodin · 02-09-2014 4:49pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

What happens when their asylum claim gets rejected?

Don't you mean "if"....

Gatling · 02-09-2014 4:50pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

What happens when their asylum claim gets rejected?

They then spend several years launching appeal after appeal

wazky · 02-09-2014 4:53pm

Chance The Fapper wrote: »

Irish students get the course paid for, generally 5-7 grand, but have to pay a student levy of 3000

True, but doesn't this new brainwave mean that asylum seekers can now apply for the full grant also?, which covers all the fees and living expenses etc.

Pro Hoc Vice · 02-09-2014 4:54pm

wendell borton wrote: »

The asylum system is an utter shambles. There should be a set amount let in every year based on criterion on well they can integrate into and benefit this country. Applicants should only come from recognised groups in real danger and discrimination such as minority Iraqis.
This way proper facilities can be provided as well as training and education budgeted for.

Probably a bit mean but realistically as a small country we cant save the world.

While that does happen with what are called program refugees. Any person who gets to the Irish border can claim asylum and under International law Ireland must allow entry to determine that issue. The criteria you set out can not be part of that process as the law on Asylum and International Protection is well settled on what amounts to a person who is in need of international protection. The problem is that because of the setting up of the system what could now be a process in most cases of a number of months can in reality now take years.

Ireland has had a total of 85,000 people seek asylum since 1992, currently less than 1,000 a year do so. Some very poor countries at this moment in time have over i million refugees within their border.

EoghanIRL · 02-09-2014 4:55pm

ScumLord wrote: »

If they're going to stay here I don't see why they shouldn't get a good education. Otherwise we could end up with ghettos of foreign people that never integrate.

Yeah except I'm Irish and I didn't even qualify for a grant .
Why should they get a grant before me ?

ScumLord · 02-09-2014 4:55pm

wazky wrote: »

A foreign national gets a full grant (around 8k I think?) yet some Irish students dont get a penny, even though their parents have paid taxes etc for years and they themselves may have paid taxes if they worked. I know of some people that wanted to go to college and got offered their course but did not get a grant which meant they couldn't go to college, nearly all ended up on the dole and ended up costing the government money anyway but this time for doing nothing.

I know plenty of Irish people that go to college because it's just the done thing to do. The type of person that risks everything to leave oppression and risk death for a better life will probably appreciate and have the drive to make the most out of a college course and be productive in the business place.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

What happens when their asylum claim gets rejected?

Whether or not their asylum application is successful is another issue. I said if they're going to stay in this country they should have access to our education system.

EoghanIRL · 02-09-2014 4:57pm

I'm irish and I didn't even qualify for a grant .
Why should they get a grant before me ?

Pro Hoc Vice · 02-09-2014 4:59pm

Gatling wrote: »

They spend the next 10+ years appealing decision after decision

There is one appeal to the Asylum decision to the RAT. Some do take Judicial Review and in many cases succeed.

Current system

1 Apply for Asylum to ORAC
2 Appeal to RAT
3 Take JR if necessary no automatic right to appeal to SC if win go bact to step 2
4 Apply for Subsidiary Protection to ORAC
5 Appeal to RAT
6 Take JR if necessary with right to appeal to SC if win go back to step 5
7 Apply for leave to remain to Minister
8 Apply for JR if necessary of top of head not sure if automatic right to appeal HC to SC. If win go back to step 7.

BY the way every one else in Europe has a one stop shop for all applications.

And then you get cases like this, http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/judge-criticises-unfair-and-irrational-refugee-appeals-tribunal-decision-1.1716331

wazky · 02-09-2014 5:01pm

ScumLord wrote: »

I know plenty of Irish people that go to college because it's just the done thing to do. The type of person that risks everything to leave oppression and risk death for a better life will probably appreciate and have the drive to make the most out of a college course and be productive in the business place.

Wow, there's being PC and then there's that.

Gatling · 02-09-2014 5:03pm

It should be simplified come apply ,
Either your granted or denied

If it's denied leave the country and try else where

Nodin · 02-09-2014 5:04pm

Gatling wrote: »

It should be simplified come apply ,
Either your granted or denied

If it's denied leave the country and try else where

...which will lead to injustices such as the one that occurred here not being overturned
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/judge-criticises-unfair-and-irrational-refugee-appeals-tribunal-decision-1.1716331

You can't 'try elsewhere', afaik.

Pro Hoc Vice · 02-09-2014 5:05pm

Gatling wrote: »

It should be simplified come apply ,
Either your granted or denied

If it's denied leave the country and try else where

I think most would agree that the system needs a radical overhaul, some efforts to combat abuse have been put in place like a EU wide finger printing database for applicants. For everyone including vulnerable, genuine people in need of international protection the system need radical change.

Pro Hoc Vice · 02-09-2014 5:06pm

Nodin wrote: »

...which will lead to injustices such as the one that occurred here not being overturned
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/judge-criticises-unfair-and-irrational-refugee-appeals-tribunal-decision-1.1716331

You can't 'try elsewhere', afaik.

By building the High Court into the system as an appeal not a Judicial Review, as in JR the HC can not change the decision just send it back for rehearing, a protection would be fairly built into the system.

ScumLord · 02-09-2014 5:07pm

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Yeah except I'm Irish and I didn't even qualify for a grant .
Why should they get a grant before me ?

Maybe they need it more than you? I don't know what your circumstances are but someone seems to think you should be able to pay your own way.

Baked.noodle · 02-09-2014 5:10pm

I suppose if a family is going through the protracted asylum process they are poor. If a child in the asylum process finishes secondary school there should be support for furthering that child's education. It would be shameful if they were expected to sit around for years without developing opportunity for the future, even if the asylum is eventually denied.

Peist2007 · 02-09-2014 5:10pm

catallus wrote: »

The main reason they are here is because the elites promote the mass movement of uneducated people across national borders so that corporations have a steady flow of menial workers (wage slaves).

These poor people in refugee camps are the over-flow of this disgusting policy.

This society should be hanging its head in shame at the way we treat human beings who happen to less fortunate than the vast majority of ourselves. The least we can do is decriminilise their opportunity to better themselves through education.

They are people escaping persecution. They arent wage slaves as they arent allowed to work. They receive €19 allowance a week and are fed and watered. Their situation is really tough and they are simply left in limbo by a crap system.

Worked giving legal advice to asylum seekers for 14 months. Opened my young eyes (at the time) as to how messed up this world is.

Gatling · 02-09-2014 5:10pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I think most would agree that the system needs a radical overhaul, some efforts to combat abuse have been put in place like a EU wide finger printing database for applicants. For everyone including vulnerable, genuine people in need of international protection the system need radical change.

I know people think it's harsh but last thing this country needs is an influx to put more strain on a system that's already struggling to support our own families and so on

Peist2007 · 02-09-2014 5:11pm

bluewolf wrote: »

would allowing them to work not help

It would dilute the purpose of the system. At least that is the thinking behind it. Cant get a visa? Claim asylum.

Pro Hoc Vice · 02-09-2014 5:13pm

Gatling wrote: »

I know people think it's harsh but last thing this country needs is an influx to put more strain on a system that's already struggling to support our own families and so on

Well the figures show that Asylum applications went from 32 in 1992 to almost 12,000 in 2002, there after dropping off to the last 3 years less than 1,000 a year. My belief is the proposal is only going to be for people stuck in the system through no fault of their own and who came to the state as children and went through the State education system. I would doubt it is for new adult applicants.

Peist2007 · 02-09-2014 5:14pm

wendell borton wrote: »

TThere should be a set amount let in every year based on criterion on well they can integrate into and benefit this country.

They have to allow those in who need to be let in ie they will be murdered or persecuted if sent to their home country. It's all based on persecution.

The Refugee Act 1996 says that the fear of persecution is subjective. This leads to the comical hearings i have attended where some stuffy civil servant in ORAC is looking over the top of their glasses at a Nigerian talking about spells and witchcraft.

The whole system needs a reboot.

RobYourBuilder · 02-09-2014 5:14pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

They get refused, like most. But they are in receipt of a grant. What then?

Peist2007 · 02-09-2014 5:17pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Well the figures show that Asylum applications went from 32 in 1992 to almost 12,000 in 2002, there after dropping off to the last 3 years less than 1,000 a year. My belief is the proposal is only going to be for people stuck in the system through no fault of their own and who came to the state as children and went through the State education system. I would doubt it is for new adult applicants.

The numbers correlate to the boom in the irish economy. The Refugee Act came in 1996 so the 1992 figures arent as relevant - the asylum system wasnt in place. Figures in 2002 were bolstered by economic migrants claiming asylum - the Nigerians were bad for this. Sad thing is in the middle of it all are real terrifying genuine cases

ScumLord · 02-09-2014 5:18pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

They get refused, like most. But they are in receipt of a grant. What then?

I'm guessing they're not handing out college grants with the welcome pack, and that access to the grant would be dependant on actually getting asylum.

RobYourBuilder · 02-09-2014 5:18pm

Peist2007 wrote: »

They are people escaping persecution. They arent wage slaves as they arent allowed to work. They receive €19 allowance a week and are fed and watered. Their situation is really tough and they are simply left in limbo by a crap system.

Worked giving legal advice to asylum seekers for 14 months. Opened my young eyes (at the time) as to how messed up this world is.

What percentage of asylum seekers in Ireland receive refugee status? The vast majority are bogus.

Gatling · 02-09-2014 5:18pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Well the figures show that Asylum applications went from 32 in 1992 to almost 12,000 in 2002, there after dropping off to the last 3 years less than 1,000 a year. My belief is the proposal is only going to be for people stuck in the system through no fault of their own and who came to the state as children and went through the State education system. I would doubt it is for new adult applicants.

This is Ireland there's always unintended consequences when they make decisions like this.

For Forks Sake · 02-09-2014 5:18pm

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Yeah except I'm Irish and I didn't even qualify for a grant .
Why should they get a grant before me ?

EoghanIRL wrote: »

I'm irish and I didn't even qualify for a grant .
Why should they get a grant before me ?

If you submitted your grant application in the same fashion as you post here it could take a long time to process.....

Nodin · 02-09-2014 5:20pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

What percentage of asylum seekers in Ireland receive refugee status? The vast majority are bogus.

No determination is made as to whether they are "bogus" or not. They either succeed or fail. For a long time the US didn't accept persecution because of sexual orientation as a grounds for asylum. Does that mean anyone who applied before it was recognised was "bogus"?

RobYourBuilder · 02-09-2014 5:21pm

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm guessing they're not handing out college grants with the welcome pack, and that access to the grant would be dependant on actually getting asylum.

You are free to sponsor these lads. Sell the laptop and donate.

RobYourBuilder · 02-09-2014 5:23pm

Nodin wrote: »

No determination is made as to whether they are "bogus" or not. They either succeed or fail. For a long time the US didn't accept persecution because of sexual orientation as a grounds for asylum. Does that mean anyone who applied before it was recognised was "bogus"?

The INIS claims that over 90% of asylum claims were unfounded.

Nodin · 02-09-2014 5:24pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

The INIS claims that over 90% of asylum claims were unfounded.

You've a source for that?

ScumLord · 02-09-2014 5:26pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

What percentage of asylum seekers in Ireland receive refugee status? The vast majority are bogus.

Well if you're saying the vast majority end up not getting asylum it kind of reduces the impact of giving the few genuine cases that make it through a college grant.

Gatling wrote: »

This is Ireland there's always unintended consequences when they make decisions like this.

Unintended consequences are always a part of innovation. The smartest people in the world can't predict with total accuracy what will happen when an idea is implemented in the real world. Doesn't mean we should make do with whatever situation we get lumped with and do nothing.

anncoates · 02-09-2014 5:27pm

EoghanIRL wrote: »

I'm irish and I didn't even qualify for a grant .
Why should they get a grant before me ?

Because you or your parents can afford college and are not asylum seekers I presume

I assume people that moan about college grants being publicly subsidized are not as quick to moan about the same taxpayers subsidizing their higher education.

Conor9320 · 02-09-2014 5:27pm

Don't forget the fact that if asylum seekers recieve the grant, it would probably result in the Irish (those who actually get it) getting less. When there's been cuts to financial support and increases in fees for years, surely we should revert the cuts before offering money to people who aren't even EU citizens?

catallus · 02-09-2014 5:29pm

Nodin wrote: »

You've a source for that?

http://www.orac.ie/website/orac/oracwebsite.nsf/page/DVFN-9KHFAX12194927-en/$File/2014-04%20April%20Monthly%20Online%20Report.pdf

Table three would appear to back up his claim, if withdrawn applications are included. (P3)

But it is rather beside the point of the thread topic.

Gatling · 02-09-2014 5:32pm

If you go though cso figures from 1996 on wards up to 26,000 African nationals came to live here I'd say a high proportion probably started the asylum process then for other reasons decided just to stay regardless

Asylum seekers to receive 3rd level grants

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